ESPN Reporting ACC takes only Miami & Va. Tech.

[Samdari]

Funny how they call it the Gulf Coast rather than the atlantic coast.

[Easy Mac]

Well technically, none of the schools are on the atlantic coast.

[Craptacular]

Originally posted by scooper
A couple points. CUSA is not an elite basketball conference. For years, there was Cincinnati and a few other good programs. Although each has its own history, the others were not top 25 teams for most of the past decade. Until last season, CUSA was weak.

Second: Elite or not, Basketball doesn't matter in this situation. While basketball brings some income, Football money drives college athletics. Do you think the ACC needs Miami and VTech for hoops? No. They are working toward bigger football crowds and deals and specifically, a conference championship game.

While respecting your points on the matter, the main reason I was posting was to respond to comments that the ACC and Big East could raid other conferences and it would "work out for everyone", as well as "nobody complains when programs are elevated into an elite conference." Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing some widespread restructuring of conferences; however, some of the comments in this thread seem to promote the idea that as long as the rich get richer, no one should complain.

[cthomer5000]

Originally posted by Craptacular
While respecting your points on the matter, the main reason I was posting was to respond to comments that the ACC and Big East could raid other conferences and it would "work out for everyone", as well as "nobody complains when programs are elevated into an elite conference." Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing some widespread restructuring of conferences; however, some of the comments in this thread seem to promote the idea that as long as the rich get richer, no one should complain.

I know i was the first to propose that "everybody" would be happy, but I really just meant the ACC and Big East. This is all contingent upon this being a backroom deal to keep both conference's alive. Still, ultimately their is going to be major change throughout the conferences nationally. It might as well happen now.

[Craptacular]

Originally posted by cthomer5000
I know i was the first to propose that "everybody" would be happy, but I really just meant the ACC and Big East.

I figured that may have been your intent, but I just wanted to make sure people understood the flip side of things. And to think, this thread hasn't evolved into a playoff debate yet ... uh oh!

[ShagVT]

Originally posted by Craptacular
however, some of the comments in this thread seem to promote the idea that as long as the rich get richer, no one should complain.

My point was that the Big East raiding the MAC/CUSA is not a simple matter of the rich getting richer. It's an opportunity for six "poor" schools to become "rich" schools by being a part of the BCS auto-bid prestige machine.

[Samdari]

If the six remain football Big East schools were to recruit 6 Conference USA schools to join them, the resulting "Big USA" conference would still probably not be worthy of a BCS bid. There is a reason C-USA does not have a BCS bid - they stink at football.

[vtbub]

Where the hell is the NCAA in all this?

I'm happy that Duke and North Carolina voted no.

[Anrhydeddu]

As long as SU remains in the Big East, it will not be a "rich" school. With Miami gone supposedly, the BE will be no different than CUSA or the WAC.

[scooper]

Originally posted by vtbub
Where the hell is the NCAA in all this?

I'm happy that Duke and North Carolina voted no.

The NCAA doesn't govern conferences.

[GoldenEagle]

I think the shoe for expansion is now on C-USA's foot and not the Big East. I think the Big East will become an all basketball conference.

[Anrhydeddu]

My respect for VT as an institution and my love for the state of Virginia has gone down in that my perception of getting the politicians and the state government involved in an area that they should not have been. Damn politicans and lawyers.

[Swaggs]

This is not yet a done deal.

Miami may not want to join the ACC now that Syracuse and BC (ie: a nice home-away-from-home game for their boosters) are going to be off the table. I think they will, due to hurt feelings, however.

And, the only way I see Va Tech going is if they get pressured from the state government. I think Va Tech in a 8-team conference, where they will probably get the BCS two or three times in any five year period will probably be more profitable than Va Tech in an 11 (or 12) team conference where they will probably get the BCS two or three times in any 10 year period.

[ShagVT]

I honestly cannot see Miami or VT saying no. We can talk about principle and whatnot, but I just don't think there is any way either team would rather stay in the BE.

I am embarrassed by VT's role in all of this, but I don't think any school in college athletics history has ever been treated worse by its conferences than Virginia Tech. They were screwed by the Metro, C-USA, the A-10, and the Big East. I don't have any reason to think that they won't be yanked around by the ACC as well, but I am glad that for once Tech is actually in a favorable position.

[Daimyo]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
Seriously, don't have to stick it out - conference will constantly be reshuffled and eventually merged into mega-conferences. There will be some semblance of the traditional conferences (ACC, SEC, B10, B12, Pac10) but the rest are just made up on the fly, like the Big East. SU belonged with Penn State as equals but now they are viewed as two seperate tiers.

I haven't heard the idea mentioned anywhere, but the Big Ten needs a twelfth team and Syracuse needs a strong conference so why not join together? Geography doesn't really matter much IMO when you have the option to open up the NY market (mmm... Chicago and NY in one conference), and they already have Penn St anyway. Would give a pretty nice boost to basketball and another solid (if unspectacular) football team.

[scooper]

Pitt would be a better Big Televen fit than Syracuse.

[Daimyo]

Maybe for Pitt, but what would they bring to the Big Ten that they don't already have?

[Swaggs]

I have heard that Missouri is seen as the best fit (outside of ND), geographically, academically, and athletically, for expansion in the Big 10 (+1).

[Anrhydeddu]

Daimyo, I fully agree with you, this has been brought up in the news frequently since Penn State joined them. However, the perception is that the Big 10 can't take its eyes off of Norty Damn. SU really like its rivalry with Miami but without that, I think going back to Penn Sate plus having relatively nearby OSU will be good. Having SU for basketball will boost that conference even more. Knowing this is all a money game to be played, I want SU into an elite conference, which Big East is not and never will be.

[scooper]

Originally posted by Daimyo
Maybe for Pitt, but what would they bring to the Big Ten that they don't already have?

1. A better geographical fit

2. A natural rivalry with PSU that was once intense

3. A football program that is currently stronger than SU

4. A strong basketball program

5. New facilities. Yes, they share Heinz, but it's still new and nice.

I'm not saying Syracuse doesn't have anything to offer, but they certainly don't offer more than Pitt. And, no, I have no allegience to Pitt whatsoever.

[Daimyo]

I thought Missouri was a good, but boring fit, but that was when Syracuse was unavailable (and I'm guessing the Big10 never thought they'd have a chance to get SU). Now it seems SU is in a tough spot and would be very easy to lure... seems kind of a no-brainer.

[Wolfpack]

I just shake my head at this. I went to the ESPN website this morning and when I saw the headline, I thought, "This is just getting #$#(* ridiculous."

At any rate, though I've been proven wrong at just about every step of this whole process, I'll once again attempt to hazard a guess as to what is going on:

A valid theory that was bandied about on one of the ACC team boards was that the following happened:

*A vote was taken on adding Miami, Syracuse, and BC. Due to opposition by Duke and UNC for philosophical reasons and by Virginia for political reasons, it was shot down 6-3.

*A vote was taken on adding Miami, Syracuse, BC, and VT. Duke and UNC still opposed, only this time, at least one other school (rumored to be NC State) also voted against, killing that idea.

*Swofford decides to go ahead and call a vote for Miami and Virginia Tech individually, knowing that he can get seven votes for each of them, overruling Duke and UNC. However, he can't get the consensus (for whatever reason) on who the twelfth team is so no vote is taken for BC or Syracuse.

So, this may be how we got here. Where it goes, I'm not sure, but I do have some thoughts. The ACC (minus Duke and UNC) have been fighting for a 12-team league with a CCG for too long to go to 11 and just stop. I have to think that there is a third invite coming this week sometime, but the question is who. A lot of fans are going pie-in-the-sky with Penn State or Notre Dame, but I speculate that both BC and Syracuse are still alive. What I think will happen is the ACC waits to see if VT accepts. If they don't, UVa is now free to vote for Syracuse and BC to invite, no blood, no foul. If VaTech does accept, I think the ACC plus the new members will get together to decide which of Syracuse or BC to invite. They may ask those two schools if either of them wish to voluntarily remove themselves from consideration. If neither do, then the league takes input from the two new members and decides which one they will extend the remaining invite to.

A slightly different take on this is that the ACC stops at 11 for now, but will take up expansion again next year. With Miami and VT in, there is no need for UVa to vote against and consequently any "no" votes by Duke or UNC are irrelevant to an expansion to 12.

Either way, I don't think the ACC is going to stay at 11.

[Anrhydeddu]

*A vote was taken on adding Miami, Syracuse, and BC. Due to opposition by Duke and UNC for philosophical reasons and by Virginia for political reasons, it was shot down 6-3.

I can stomach "philosophical reasons" more than I can "political reasons", even though both makes me sick.

[ScottVib]

I'm actually starting to think that perhaps SU and BC are off the table... and that the ACC could still stick it to the Big East by taking Louisville as the 12th team.

Louisville's got the nice new facilities... they have the basketball coaching personality to be very marketable.. Louisville's the 50th market in the US, and a decent name to get you to 12, while somewhat fitting the conferences "footprint". IMO they could be the best/most likely team to fit in as the 12th member of the ACC. (And you get the side benefit of backhanding the Big East)..

For the money to work out the ACC had to be the only BCS conference on the East coast... without an anchor (pending some miracle) the Big East's automatic berth is gone when the BCS TV deal comes up.. SU and BC don't really fit the footprint and were considered when Miami had the power in the negotiations to make it happen... once things went south Miami lost its stroke and once they are in they are a newcomer without the power to force the hand of the conference.. IMO Louisville might make the most sense for the ACC to be Member 12 and give them a conference championship game.

[albionmoonlight]

If I were the ACC, I would want Louisville or SU out of all of the possible schools remaining to get to 12.

[GoldenEagle]

The thing that makes Lousivlle more attractive is the football program that can compete and the nice football stadium that they have. The basketball program is also well off.

But I think if a conference looks to expand, you take Memphis over anyone else besides Louisville.

[Samdari]

Well, scooper, one thing you leave out is that Syracuse, in part, is considered to deliver the NYC tv market, and Pitt delivers the Pittsburgh tv market.

And yes, Daimyo, SU would be easy to recruit today. Please call.

[scooper]

My argument would be that while close, Syracuse really doesn't deliver the NY market. Plus, in spite of being the largest market, NY is not a big college football city.

Besides, NY has so many people from so many places, it probably has the most diverse alumni representations in the country.

[Samdari]

Originally posted by scooper
My argument would be that while close, Syracuse really doesn't deliver the NY market. Plus, in spite of being the largest market, NY is not a big college football city.

Besides, NY has so many people from so many places, it probably has the most diverse alumni representations in the country.

Everyone always seems to want to dispute the idea that SU delivers the NYC market. Why is this? The ACC investigated this and obviously found that SU games delivered much better ratings there than ACC games. Why do people here seem to want to substitute their own suppositions and guesses for the work of experts looking at actual data?

[mckerney]

I've always just called it the Big 10 because I'd never really believed that Northwestern had any real teams.

[digamma]

People forget the Big 12 was formed politically.

IIRC, Ann Richards railroaded Baylor through and the Texas legislature pulled Texas Tech through. SMU, Rice and TCU, being private schools did not have to political clout in Austin to gain an invite.

I agree with the sentiment that 11 makes little sense, but I am not sure another invite is coming this week or this year. We'll see.

I also don't see a way that VPI turns down the invitation. To many people went to bat for them, and they can't say no now.

As far as BC or Syracuse, I selfishly favor BC, because I have friends in Boston and tailgating would be fun there. I would have preferred both over the Turkeys though.

[scooper]

Originally posted by Samdari
Everyone always seems to want to dispute the idea that SU delivers the NYC market. Why is this? The ACC investigated this and obviously found that SU games delivered much better ratings there than ACC games. Why do people here seem to want to substitute their own suppositions and guesses for the work of experts looking at actual data?

Because these are internet message boards where fans are spouting opinions. Our own opinions, not those of university officials. Speaking of fan opinions, I've read and heard more Big Televen opinions looking for Pitt to join than Syracuse. Much of that seems to be PSU driven.

Disclaimer: This is a fan's opinion:

The Big Televen is strong in all sports and financially. They get great television coverage from ABC/ESPN. They are not hurting by missing NYC. Pitt looks to be a better fit geographically. With their proximity to Ohio, they are a more of a midwest school than an east coast school. Plus, they are currently a better football program than SU. Football drives the bus, not basketball.

[Wolfpack]

I think its just perception. Everyone in the city of New York supposedly doesn't give a flip about the hicks upstate and that includes the good folks in Syracuse. Not to mention that in a metropolitan region of about 20 million, most of them care about their pro franchises a lot more than the college ones. Same goes for Boston and BC. Personally, I don't think that's true, and even if it were, the sheer volume of people in both regions would more than offset the supposed "lack of interest" by the region as a whole. After all, the city of New York by itself has more people than Maryland and South Carolina, two of the states in the ACC's footprint. (Va, NC, Ga, and Fla all have over 8,000,000 at this point, I think, so they're larger than NYC)

[Samdari]

Originally posted by scooper
Because these are internet message boards where fans are spouting opinions. Our own opinions, not those of university officials.

I understand that. The whole "SU gets good ratings in NYC" thing is not an opinion, however, its a fact. Athletic departments know that something being aired in NYC that comes in 6th place in local ratings has more people watching than Pitt does when aired in Pittsburgh. Its kind of like someone giving their opinion that water is dry.

That said, I agree with you that Pitt would be invited to the Big Televen before SU, and that would be Penn State driven. The only hope for SU sports (no BC fans here?) is that the Big 10 decides to invite noone, eternally holding a spot for ND, and PSU gets pissed off enough to join SU, BC, WVU, UConn, Rutgers (not important, but thrown in to appease cthomer) et al in the eastern all sports conference they wanted to form 25 years ago.

Maybe the Patriot league would take us. Nope, they are too pure. The Ivy League? (laughter). Hmmm, ESPN is reporting the MWC wants to expand.

[scooper]

Fair enough. I was going on misguided perceptions such as mentioned above by Wolfpack.

[ISiddiqui]

re: Louisville. I think the Big East is in a better position to land them than the ACC at this point.

[tucker342]

What's really lame is the fact that the politicans in Virginia told the University of Virginia not to vote for the plan unless Virginia Tech was included, what's up with that???

[Samdari]

An interesting press release. The first official confirmation of today's worst kept secret in sports.

June 25, 2003

Boston College released the following statement on Wednesday, 6/25/03:

Boston College entered into discussions with the Atlantic Coast Conference regarding conference expansion because we felt it was in the best interest of our student-athletes and our athletics program. Those discussions took place over the last few months in accordance with ACC procedures and without any violations of our responsibilities to the Big East membership.

Our discussions with the ACC were based on a conference expansion proposal that included Miami and Syracuse. Yesterday, in the eleventh hour, the ACC instead voted to invite Virginia Tech and Miami and to exclude Boston College and Syracuse. This unexpected vote has ended our discussions with the ACC.

Today, representatives from the Big East institutions are engaged in discussions with all conference members, including Miami and Virginia Tech, regarding future conference configuration. Boston College is now focused on these discussions, including addressing those issues that have caused several Big East institutions to consider conference withdrawal.

[cthomer5000]

This is the first we've heard of Big East teams considering withdrawal. I think anyone quitting on the conference would be akin to hitting the self-destruct button while walking out the door. I think that it would lead to 3 teams heading to the ACC, Pitt trying to squeeze into the Big 10 and the rest scattering to the winds.

[cthomer5000]

dola

If the Big East collapses, can we consider Greg Schiano leaving Miami just weeks before Butch Davis left the worst career move in sports history?

[ISiddiqui]

It already is .

[Wolfpack]

It's called "holding the purse strings". NC State and UNC experienced a similar threat albeit for a different reason.

NC State and East Carolina used to play each other every year or other year for much of the 70s and early 80s in a sort of annoying Big Brother-Little Brother rivalry (State usually being the overwhelming winner in most games). East Carolina finally got their football program going by the mid 80s and had won a few contests from State. In 1985 or 86 (can't remember at this second), ECU beat State in Raleigh (all games had been played in Raleigh to that point) and it set off a wild celebration by the several thousand loud and very inebriated Pirate fans, resulting in damage to the stadium and not a few fights among themselves and with State fans. After that, NC State's adminstration put a moratorium on the series. (State and ECU would meet by happenstance in 1991 in the Peach Bowl, a game where State choked away a substantial lead and lost.)

To cut to the point of it, by the early 90s, both State and UNC were looking to upgrade athletics and other facilities on campus. However, in the state legislature, there were several powerful eastern North Carolina members who decided they could make a bit of a power play against both UNC and NC State by veiling threats of witholding funding if the two big state schools didn't put ECU back on their schedules. Neither school really could put up a lot of resistance, particularly State, which needed funds for the new basketball arena (now the RBC Center), so they caved and State and ECU started scheduling games again, though not on a yearly basis. UNC got off a bit lighter, I think only having to play ECU twice, but State got saddled with two games in Charlotte and a home-and-home with ECU. All of those games have been played except for the last mandated game in 2004 in Charlotte. It has been speculated that the series may continue beyond next year during years where there might be a 12th game available. (In this instance, it seems to be a voluntary consideration, rather than mandated from on high)

So, state governments getting their big noses into the affairs of athletics is not without precedent, particularly in this part of the country.

[Anrhydeddu]

cthomer, I think it was talking in past tense, caused several Big East institutions to consider conference withdrawal" in refering to what had been happening the past two months.

[Wolfpack]

(chance for a dola)

And yet again, my fearless predictions are reduced to dust, since it looks like BC has decided to remove itself from further consideration (if any is going on, that is).

I'm most distressed about what happened to BC. Syracuse, I could care less about since they seemed to be reluctant to come and were only doing it because of Miami. BC thought the same way, but were much more willing to show they wanted in. BC probably had several assurances from ACC officials that they were as good as in and then this whole fiasco blows up because of the intractable stupidity of the good folks in Chapel Hill, Durham, and Richmond. End result, they're the ones who really have to go back to the Big East, hat in hand. Syracuse isn't really in the same boat since the Big East didn't go after them over their actions as much.

I would not be surprised if Miami opts out, causing VaTech to withdraw itself from consideration and this whole thing falls apart. If that happens, I do fear the ACC will be toast in a few years as a football conference because FSU, Tech, and Clemson may just be fed up enough with Duke and UNC's hold on conference affairs that they would consider withdrawing, even with the stiff penalties they would incur for doing so.

[cthomer5000]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
cthomer, I think it was talking in past tense, caused several Big East institutions to consider conference withdrawal" in refering to what had been happening the past two months.

I don't think so. It's talking about events they are discussing today. Issues they are talking about now are what caused these either past or present considerations of withdrawal. I could see Syracuse and B.C. wanting out if Va Tech and Miami walk.

[Marmel]

The latest is that if UConn apologizes and drops the suit, and Tranghese is gone, Miami will seriously consider saying No to the ACC.

Miami fans are about 70/30 against the current ACC deal as well.

[Anrhydeddu]

Miami fans are about 70/30 against the current ACC deal as well.

I wonder why?

[albionmoonlight]

I am thinking of a word to describe what this whole situation is becomming. It begins with cluster and rhymes with duck.

[Wolfpack]

I can see that. On the FSU board I've been visiting since this process began in earnest, a lot of the FSU fans are supportive of this, but a lot of visiting Canes fans have voiced their disapproval.

The more I think of what's happened, the more I am coming to hate it. It would have been one thing to start with Miami and Virginia Tech, but to end up where we are with all the s* that's happened, it's just f*ed in the head.

[Anrhydeddu]

Miami shouldn't have any loyalties to the Big East, it is just a stepping stone for them. The only thing I can think of is that the Big East, with its patsies, makes it an easy shot at the BCS. ACC would prove harder to do so, esp. with FSU. But Miami, bless their heart, always wanted SU along since that has been their only favorite conference matchup (despite some of the lopsidedness) for fans and alumni. I really don't think Miami cares anything about Rutgers, Temple, Pitt, UConn or even VT. Now BC has always been a rival for Miami and I can see how the original three of UM, BC and Su came to be.