More Politically Correct Lunacy

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Beyond the bigger issue of naming and grouping people based on race... do people here really believe that these high school kids were trying to make a political point about these issues?

Maybe they were, and I don't claim to read minds. But my guess is that this is just another example of wise-ass high school kids trying to find a technicality to make the teachers and administration look bad. This happens at every high school -- it's almost a right of passage. "They" make the rules, "we" find ways to break them.

Every year we see stories about some wacky high school who elected the high school QB as prom queen. Are they doing it to make a statement on gender equality issues? No, they're goofing around, having a laugh. Same as these kids. It's just that these kids were dumb enough to think that making racial jokes on MLK day was appropriate.

Yes, sure, maybe they really were aiming higher than that, trying to make a political statement. I'm sure they'll claim that now. But occam's razor says they got caught playing a dumb joke and now they don't want to take their punishment.

Well, even if they are only doing what you claim they were doing, "trying to find a technicality to make the teachers and administration look bad" I don't think they deserve to be punished in any way. They looked at something from a different point of view than it was presented to them, and pointed out a flaw they percieved. That is exactly the kind of thing schools should be teaching them to do - think on their own. Punishing them for it is insane.

[HornedFrog Purple]

Originally Posted by Noop

Goodness I was thinking the same thing after I read his book( I had to stop reading ) Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, etc. to me are just playing the racist card for money. Having a one hour protest doesnt really help problems some of the people are facing. Excuse my french but fuck them....

You get no argument from me. Sadly many many years ago they weren't the way they are now. Now they just prey on fear and mistrust just like Malcolm did.

[Senator]

I was thinking the other day what an opportunity Jesse Jackson had, and he squandered it. I remember at the 88 Democratic Convention, thinking, "he makes so much sense", and now he has become his worst enemy.

A week a ago a friend of mine sent me an email from his Blackberry at LaGuardia Airport. He was sitting eating breakfast waiting for his flight, when a man ask if he could share his table because all the others were full. It was Jesse Jackson. I emailed back and told him to ask to see a picture of his newest daughter, but I was only kidding.

[HornedFrog Purple]

Yup I really believed in him too and I was wrong.

I would have loved to see what JC Watts would have become but I guess we will never know now.

[Senator]

I have had many dealings with JC, and he was the one guy I had high hopes for. He is one of those types of people that just exude leadership. He is a very personable guy, a quick study, and I just hated to see him leave politics. He is the only guy I can think of that I would go back into full time politics for.


ADD ON: Some would argue that I am already in politics full time, and I would be the last one to argue that point.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Samdari

Well, even if they are only doing what you claim they were doing, "trying to find a technicality to make the teachers and administration look bad" I don't think they deserve to be punished in any way. They looked at something from a different point of view than it was presented to them, and pointed out a flaw they percieved. That is exactly the kind of thing schools should be teaching them to do - think on their own. Punishing them for it is insane.

I don't think we do our kids any favors if we encourage them to think independtly with no regard for the impact of their actions.

Whatever motives you want to assign to the kids in question, their actions ruined an event that was (presumably) important to a lot of people. All for a laugh. That's low-class, any way you slice it.

If they really feel like their point was so important that it had to be made without consideration of the consequences, then fine. Accept your punishment and move on, happy in the knowledge that you made your statement. Civil disobedience has its place. But the fact that they're fighting the (relatively minor) punishment handed out is pretty telling as far as their motives.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Dola--

I honestly hope that more white South Africans will do this kind of thing, and insist on being called African-Americans. I HATE that term. My mama was born in Georgia. My grandmama was born in Georgia. My great-grandmother was born in Georgia. My GREAT-GREAT grandmother was born in Georgia.

Face the facts: I have WAY more in common with white Georgians who have been here for multiple generations than I do with black folks in Africa. As a whole, black Southerners have WAY more in common with white Southerners than Africans. (I'd imagine this is true in other parts of the country as well...)

I wish more dark-skinned Americans would realize this.

I think more of us realize it than the media gives us credit for. But you're making good points and I agree wholeheartedly. I always joke when people ask me "where are you from?" I always say I'm fifth generation New Jerseyean. People look puzzled and go, "right, but where are you really from?"

Ugh. My friend goes to college with four white girls from Uganda. She was flabbergasted to find out that there are white folks from Africa. Granted, there are not many and the PC crowd has problems with it, but I've always argued that the only way to make things (e.g. black history month) relevant is to include people rather than make them feel excluded.

The King holiday is just becoming more mainstream and becoming embraced, but more people choose to marginalize and make it some sort of black-only thing.

It's so frustrating.

[Desnudo]

That would have made a good Onion story if they'd made it so he won. If you're an American you're an American, no hyphen, end of story.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

That would have made a good Onion story if they'd made it so he won. If you're an American you're an American, no hyphen, end of story.

Yes, blacks are never persecuted here. We're glad to note that all of our racial problems have disappeared, thanks to the dropping of hyphenated terms!

Get real.

[Fritz]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

Yes, blacks are never persecuted here. We're glad to note that all of our racial problems have disappeared, thanks to the dropping of hyphenated terms!

Get real.

Can we assume from your statement that you think hyphenated terms are having a positive impact on racial problems?

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Fritz

Can we assume from your statement that you think hyphenated terms are having a positive impact on racial problems?

Sure it has. Segregation always works. Isn't that what history tells us?

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

Yes, blacks are never persecuted here. We're glad to note that all of our racial problems have disappeared, thanks to the dropping of hyphenated terms!

Get real.

I'm not sure what your problem is. And please don't pull conclusions from my statements that have nothing to do with what I was saying.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

... do people here really believe that these high school kids were trying to make a political point about these issues?

I can't speak for everyone here, but I suspect these high school kids were highlighting this particular piece of biased b.s. for what it is -- an insult to all Americans, regardless of skin color.

Whether that's a "political statement" in their minds or just a way of highlighting this sort of absurdity, I couldn't tell you.

[sabotai]

I think this is more PC nonsense. One, having an award like this is patronizing to the black community (and I'm surprised more don't see it like that). Second, what exactly did these kids do that was so wrong to warrent a suspension? Offend people? Now we're suspending kids just because they offend some people?

When I was in high school, it got out that I was an atheist when I was a senior and some of the more "religious" people in my class took offense to me saying a couple of things (that were neither directed at them on in a coversation with them). I guess I should have been suspended because I offended them...

[Franklinnoble]

Well, I'm glad SkyDog is taking a stand against political correctness...

... now if he would only bring back the QOTM...

[Butter]

Originally Posted by Fritz

Can we assume from your statement that you think hyphenated terms are having a positive impact on racial problems?

Sure. This PC subject is awfully tired here anyway, but all you conservative types just LOOOOOVE to argue about it. I'm not gonna bite.

Desnudo, you said "if you're an American, you're an American". For many minorities, I don't think they feel like they're afforded all the protections that an American should be afforded. That's all I meant. I guess you didn't really say much with that statement, so I'll lay off my inferring nature today, and apologize if I inferred more than I should've.

[Glengoyne]

Whatever their motivation, they were making a commentary about the name assigned to the award. The didn't expect this white kid to win the award. They were making a statement. Other than humor, I don't think we can ascribe any motive to their actions.

You can call them rabblerousers, nogoodnicks, pranksters, morons, or even insensitive. I just don't think they should be called racists, which is what the school district did by suspending them.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by sabotai

When I was in high school, it got out that I was an atheist when I was a senior and some of the more "religious" people in my class took offense to me saying a couple of things (that were neither directed at them on in a coversation with them). I guess I should have been suspended because I offended them...

In my high school, which was heavily Jewish, we had a guy who thought it was funny to draw swastikas on peoples lockers. That offended people too.

Look, the problem with slippery slope arguments is that, if accepted, they force you to condone all behaviour, no matter how extreme. There's a difference between all three situations - yours, mine and the one in the article. There are shade of grey between the extremes. Just because you were given a rough ride does not mean that all offensive actions, by definition, must be accepted.

Who gets to determine what gets punished and what doesn't? I'd say it's the administrators. That's their job, after all. If they do it poorly, they deserve to take the heat for it. In this case, I think they made the right call.

[sabotai]

In my high school, which was heavily Jewish, we had a guy who thought it was funny to draw swastikas on peoples lockers. That offended people too.

Well for one, that's also vandelism...(and did they get suspended for it?)

I just don't think the school should be suspending people simply for offending people (your example include vandelism). Once you start doing that, then you open the door for people to expect suspensions for all kinds of "offensive" actions. Or are we just going to treat black people different in another situation. They're going to suspend white people when they offend some black people. Will they suspend black people if they offend some white people, or will they continue to treat whites and blacks differently?

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by sabotai

Well for one, that's also vandelism...

Do you honestly think vandalism is the big problem in that scenario?

[sabotai]

I think vandelism is the suspendable action in that scenario.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by sabotai

I think vandelism is the suspendable action in that scenario.

Sigh.

So let's pretend he taped signs to their lockers.

[sabotai]

Sigh? I'm not just laying down and following you opinions and that's hard on you?

Anyway, if he just taped signs, and the school has no rule about that sort of thing (and if it's largely jewish, I would imagine they do...), then tough luck for the school and the kids should not get suspended. (Beaten savagly in the bathroom, yes.) But what rule of the school's did they break that is classified as suspendable if broken?

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

Sure. This PC subject is awfully tired here anyway, but all you conservative types just LOOOOOVE to argue about it. I'm not gonna bite.

Desnudo, you said "if you're an American, you're an American". For many minorities, I don't think they feel like they're afforded all the protections that an American should be afforded. That's all I meant. I guess you didn't really say much with that statement, so I'll lay off my inferring nature today, and apologize if I inferred more than I should've.

No worries Butter, it's easy to infer more than was intended from message board posts. I really did mean it in a literal sense, with no underlying message.

[mckerney]

"Distinguished African American Student Award"

"I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

Yep, sounds like that's about what he was hoping for.

[astralhaze]

I assume the conservatives who just looooove to rail against political correctness have no problem with calling African-Americans niggers, Jews kikes, Asians gooks, Mexicans spics, homosexuals fags, and etc?

If you do, and you still continue the argument, you are being extremely inconsistent.

[sabotai]

I assume the conservatives who just looooove to rail against political correctness have no problem with calling African-Americans niggers, Jews kikes, Asians gooks, Mexicans spics, homosexuals fags, and etc?

Nope. (But I guess the question was not directed at me since I'm not a conservative)

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by astralhaze

I assume the conservatives who just looooove to rail against political correctness have no problem with calling African-Americans niggers, Jews kikes, Asians gooks, Mexicans spics, homosexuals fags, and etc?

If you do, and you still continue the argument, you are being extremely inconsistent.

And I'm guessing the liberals that just loooove talking about freedom of speech will be calling the ACLU to help sue the school for restricting these kids rights.


If you're not, then your inconsistent.

[astralhaze]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

And I'm guessing the liberals that just loooove talking about freedom of speech will be calling the ACLU to help sue the school for restricting these kids rights.


If you're not, then your inconsistent.

Avoiding the question?

[Easy Mac]

Dave Matthews is the greatest African American recording artist of all time.

And if the kids are just pulling a prank, fine, give them detention... I got detentions for untucked shirts. If they are trying to create a disturbance in order to disrupt school, then suspend them.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by astralhaze

Avoiding the question?

Nope, showing the same is true either way you look at it.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

Dave Matthews is the greatest African American recording artist of all time.

And if the kids are just pulling a prank, fine, give them detention... I got detentions for untucked shirts. If they are trying to create a disturbance in order to disrupt school, then suspend them.

Detention of an untucked shirt?

*takes out personal tape recorder*
*presses record*

Note to self...do not move to South Carolina...in fact, just stay away from the south completely.

*presses stop.*

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by sabotai

Detention of an untucked shirt?

*takes out personal tape recorder*
*presses record*

Note to self...do not move to South Carolina...in fact, just stay away from the south completely.

*presses stop.*

and it was a saturday detention, which meant I had to go to school and sit in a room for 4 hours for not tucking in my shirt... I guess I could conceal a weapon or a pen or something.

[wig]

Originally Posted by mckerney

"I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

Yep, sounds like that's about what he was hoping for.

Game-Set-Match to mckerney

Well timed and well said.

wig

[Butter]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

And I'm guessing the liberals that just loooove talking about freedom of speech will be calling the ACLU to help sue the school for restricting these kids rights.

Kids' rights CAN be restricted. Unfortunate (or not) as you may view that, your point is misplaced in this argument.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

And I'm guessing the liberals that just loooove talking about freedom of speech will be calling the ACLU to help sue the school for restricting these kids rights.


If you're not, then your inconsistent.

I'll take the challenge.

I don't support using racial slurs (astralhaze's example), I don't support the kid's suspensions (although I don't think I support a lawsuit to get them back in either), and I do support free speech.

Is that inconsistent? I don't think it is at all. I don't think using slurs and diminishing other people's cultures has anything to do with free speech. Sure, people are "free" to say what they want, but it doesn't mean they aren't dumbasses for doing it. Just because this country enjoys "free speech," doesn't mean that everything that is said is equal. A lot of crap gets spewed out and I'll call it that.

In this case, you have a group of minority students who preferred to call themselves African-American (not a term that I endorse, but my opinion doesn't count) and the dumbass white students took a joke/prank/argument too far. I'm not sure what their posters said, but I'm guessing they were a little in-your-face. Should they be allowed to say it? Sure, but they are still dumbasses.

Now, are you going to take astralhaze's challenge or agree that slippery slope arguments are dumb?

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by John Galt

I'll take the challenge.

I don't support using racial slurs (astralhaze's example), I don't support the kid's suspensions (although I don't think I support a lawsuit to get them back in either), and I do support free speech.

Is that inconsistent? I don't think it is at all. I don't think using slurs and diminishing other people's cultures has anything to do with free speech. Sure, people are "free" to say what they want, but it doesn't mean they aren't dumbasses for doing it. Just because this country enjoys "free speech," doesn't mean that everything that is said is equal. A lot of crap gets spewed out and I'll call it that.

In this case, you have a group of minority students who preferred to call themselves African-American (not a term that I endorse, but my opinion doesn't count) and the dumbass white students took a joke/prank/argument too far. I'm not sure what their posters said, but I'm guessing they were a little in-your-face. Should they be allowed to say it? Sure, but they are still dumbasses.

Now, are you going to take astralhaze's challenge or agree that slippery slope arguments are dumb?

I've always thought slippery slope arguements were dumb.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

I've always thought slippery slope arguements were dumb.

That's all I wanted to hear. Can you tell everyone else here to stop using them? And while you are at it, tell them to stop using the same bad strawmen (especially the one that is both a strawman and a slippery slope - that the PC police would have us say nothing because someone will always be offended).

[Desnudo]

That's a slippery slope John. The next thing you know we'll all be wearing tracking bracelets.

[yabanci]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

So of all the issues in the world, these students decide that this is the one that needs to have attention focused on it?

And in order to do so, they feel it's appropriate to ruin an award meant for black students, at an overwhelmingly white school, on Martin Luther King day?

Nice post.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

I don't think we do our kids any favors if we encourage them to think independtly with no regard for the impact of their actions.

Whatever motives you want to assign to the kids in question, their actions ruined an event that was (presumably) important to a lot of people. All for a laugh. That's low-class, any way you slice it.

If they really feel like their point was so important that it had to be made without consideration of the consequences, then fine. Accept your punishment and move on, happy in the knowledge that you made your statement. Civil disobedience has its place. But the fact that they're fighting the (relatively minor) punishment handed out is pretty telling as far as their motives.

So, whateves motives they had, they were definitely doing it only for a laugh. You cannot seem to get away from tying their punishment into motives you have ascribed.

And besides, making one's point should not have consequences, unless they broke a law or published school rule. They endorsed a candidate for an award (appropriate or not). There is no rule against that. There should be no punishment.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Whatever motives you want to assign to the kids in question, their actions ruined an event that was (presumably) important to a lot of people. All for a laugh.

Satire is a legitmate form of expression. When John Stewart plays the clip of Howard Dean ranting and compares it to a monster truck rally it probably helps to "ruin" the memory of a speech that was really important to a lot of people. This idea that because they did it for a laugh that it doesn't have legitimacy or is wrong, strikes me as condescending at best.

[BigJohn&TheLions]

When Bobby Brown & Whitney Houston visited an Israili community of black Hebrews a NYC news broadcast called the community "African-American." So to be politically correct anyone with African heratige and dark skin must be refered to as "African-American" no matter whether they have even seen America. Ridiculous...

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by BigJohn&TheLions

When Bobby Brown & Whitney Houston visited an Israili community of black Hebrews a NYC news broadcast called the community "African-American." So to be politically correct anyone with African heratige and dark skin must be refered to as "African-American" no matter whether they have even seen America. Ridiculous...

Yes, that is the logical conclusion to draw. More strawmen.

[Fritz]

Originally Posted by John Galt

I'll take the challenge.

I don't support using racial slurs, I don't support the kid's suspensions (although I don't think I support a lawsuit to get them back in either), and I do support free speech.

RUN FOR YOUR LIVES

jg and I agree on something

[BishopMVP]

The PC thing has been played out in this thread already, but I just wanted to add a couple points.

One problem with the award is that, unless there is an accompanying one solely for white students, which I'll guarantee there isn't, it implies that black students are not as good as white students and can't compete on the same level. Another is the qualification for the award. How is that determined? Should you be able to trace your heritage back to Africa within x generations - apparently that's not it, so then does your skin pigment have to be x darker than 'white' students - this would include many Latino people, which I'm sure isn't the intent either. So then are we going back to the one-drop theory or what?

Also, as for the students doing it on MLK day, that was the day the award was handed out. It wasn't like this was an award handed out during graduation and the students chose to bring it up on a holiday that celebrates a prominent black American. The fact that an award based on segragating a small portion of the population is entirely antithetical to King's professed beliefs has already been pointed out in the thread.

Originally Posted by John Galt

In this case, you have a group of minority students who preferred to call themselves African-American

I don't profess to know what percentage of students at this school prefer to be called African-American versus black or Negro-American as you brought up in the other thread, but I very much doubt that they had any choice in the issue. This was the school district that hands out the award, and was responsible for its creation and naming.

[Fritz]

dola

except jg does overuse the strawman thing

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Fritz

dola

except jg does overuse the strawman thing

How can you even pretend to dola with the monster post in between?

As to the strawman thing, I'm guilty as charged.

[Fritz]

sorry, it was a ddola

[Ben E Lou]

Been pretty busy today. Nice read in this thread. Some thoughts...

Quik, I understand where you're coming from on the inexact terminology, but I offer my own ethnic ancestry as another example of why this bothers me.

Father--Robert Lewis

His parents--Benjamin and Mary Lewis--Benjamin's parents were a black woman (We assume of West African slave lineage. The British brought over a number of slaves to Barbados in the 1600's.) and a man of pretty much 100% Carribean/South American lineage. As far as we can tell, Mary was of purely Carribbean/South American descent.

So, my father's ancestry is basically 25% African, and 75% Latino/Hispanic/Carribean native. He was born in Havana, Cuba, but raised in New Orleans, LA. Being raised stateside, he spoke with no accent, and furthermore he was very dark-skinned. He looked definitely looked Negro/black/African-American, and was therefore classified as such by the government. (Actually I think the law in Louisiana is that if you have 12.5% "black blood" you were considered "Negro", "Black", "African-American", or whatever the term du jour is.)

Mother--Esther Allen Lewis

Her mother--Ruby Carter Allen--Ruby's mother was pretty much of full Cherokee Indian descent, and her father was 3/4 African descent, 1/4 European descent--makes Ruby's lineage 1/2 Cherokee, 3/8 African, 1/8
European

Her father--Harold Allen--His father was white (slave owner/slave copulation) and his mother was of mainly African descent (although her lineage is part Cherokee as well). For argument's sake, we'll call him 50% European, 50% African

So....that means that my mom's lineage is 1/4 Cherokee, 7/16 African, 5/16 European


Doing all the cypherin', that in reality means my heritage is approximately:

37.5% South American/Carribbean/Latino
34.4% African
15.6% European
12.5% Cherokee

Maybe understanding my true heritage will help folks understand why calling me "African-American" is just flat-out offensive to me. One reason I don't like that term is that it completely discounts over 60% of my heritage. My brothers and I happen to look "black" (at least by American standards). However, nearly all of our first cousins on our mother's side look at least somewhat ethnically ambiguous. I have two first cousins with green eyes, and all but one of my mother's six brothers have straight hair. We don't mind being called "black", mainly because for me the term connotates the cultural experience/history of those of us with partial/full African ancestry, but it also doesn't leave out the reality that a LARGE number of us have a good bit of non-African lineage. All of my extended family members grew up in black neighborhoods, were victims of Jim Crow laws in the South, etc. etc. etc., so we definitely consider ourselves "black"--but "African American" is a real stretch.

This "mixed" cultural heritage isn't uncommon in American "blacks." In fact, I'd venture to say that it is more the norm than "pure" African ancestry. There's a reason that American "blacks" look quite different from African "blacks," and it isn't just the way we dress.

(Sorry this is being posted now and maybe sort of off-topic with where the thread has gone. I started this post yesterday, but things got even busier than expected getting ready for camp. I looked at my computer this morning and realized that I was 2/3 done with this post, so I figured I'd finish it. )

--Ben