E-Mail From druez/Jason K./etc.

[FargoFreez aka fof playa]

Originally posted by SkyDog
fof playa:

This is going a bit far. The guy was trying to re-invent himself. You really ought to back off.

I had no idea that FF = couriers. Thought the latter was banned. Oh well, I still think he's kind of goofy and I'll leave it at that.

[SlapBone]

Originally posted by FargoFreez aka fof playa
I had no idea that FF = couriers. Thought the latter was banned. Oh well, I still think he's kind of goofy and I'll leave it at that.

Lol... well at least I have proof it's not me

[FloridaFringe]

Never banned.

Self-imposed exile instead for my lack of exercising better judgment during that period of time. Apparently it wasn't long enough according to certain people since they feel the need to drag my name through the mud even after nine months have passed. O'well.

BTW, nice PM playa. Real classy.

[The Afoci]

Originally posted by FloridaFringe
BTW, nice PM playa. Real classy.

Good thing he PM'ed you.

The whole idea of PMing is to keep it private. I never had anything against you but it is getting easier to see how people did.

[sachmo71]

"Luke, you turned off your targeting computer! Is anything wrong?"

[Franklinnoble]

Just like Beggar's Canyon back home...

[Buccaneer]

Consider the way Jason K. has been slamming you at TPF General, methinks he lied in his email.

[The_herd]

Originally posted by Buccaneer
Consider the way Jason K. has been slamming you at TPF General, methinks he lied in his email.

It has been absolute, Grade-A comedy over there tonight.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by Buccaneer
Consider the way Jason K. has been slamming you at TPF General, methinks he lied in his email.

..and as I said over there, I have no clue what brought that all on. I'm doing a search right now for some of SlapBone's posts here. I still haven't found a place where he and I have ever directly interacted before tonight... Very strange.

[Eaglesfan27]

I was just starting to read the 48 or so post thread on their message board when it was deleted. I can't help but wonder what I missed. I definitely see Skydog's logic about keeping objectionable threads but just closing them once they have been around for a while. Now, with this thread having been deleted I'm just very suspicious and using my imagination which may have me thinking worse things then the actual thread.

[Blade6119]

Originally posted by The_herd
It has been absolute, Grade-A comedy over there tonight.

link?

[The_herd]

Originally posted by Blade6119
link?

Main post got deleted.

This is other other one where Slap was picking a fight.

http://www.400softwarestudios.com/in...howtopic=46146

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by Eaglesfan27
I definitely see Skydog's logic about keeping objectionable threads but just closing them once they have been around for a while. Now, with this thread having been deleted I'm just very suspicious and using my imagination which may have me thinking worse things then the actual thread.

Bingo. You're dead on to my thinking on this. Once the thread is out there and a bunch of people have read it, deleting it causes more harm than good. If there is an over-the-top post in it (like a direct and vicious personal attack, for example), I might edit it, but I've learned that deleting a decent-sized thread does more harm than good almost always.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by The_herd
Main post got deleted.

My version of the main post...

1. A guy asks for a TPF/FOF comparision
2. I read the thread early on, but decided that I would say nothiing.
3. One guy responds, specifically asking for my take.
4. I give my honest take, which basically is that the jury is out on TPF, but that FOF2K4 is a very immersive experience for me, but that some won't like it.
5. SlapBone goes BALLISTIC over this response--expressing anger that I was even made a beta tester for TPF, and posting a laundry list of my evil deeds. Among other things, according to him I had hidden agenda as a tester. There was an underlying implication that I've tried to undermine .400 and TPF. (Note: I still can't find but one interaction that I've ever had with him in the past....)
6. Jason K. jumps in with his 2 cents.
7. Ol' SkyDog offers them both a little change for their 2 cents worth.

I'm still not sure where these guys were coming from, or what their agenda is...

[sabotai]

I missed the 48 pager over there, unfortunately. I think Joe is having one of his "moments" because he's made a couple of pretty insane comments. One being the "look at our deleted threads / ban user ratio". This is funny because 1) The two really have nothing to do with each other and 2) He said this after apparently deleting another thread.

The kicker for me was him claiming there are no fanboys on the .400 forums. Truely classic moments going on tonight.

[RedKingGold]

This is like a really bad reality show. I know its garbage,....but I can't help but watch!

[Buccaneer]

And that Slapbone, Jason K and Ben were/are all part of the beta team. Which is not a bad thing because I always believe in diversity in testing - you must have different styles playing/testing the same game.

[sabotai]

SkyDog,

Ah, I replied in that thread, but the action happened aftwards. Darn!

What is especially funny is that most people seem to say that the draft is the best part of the game right now (me included), and that's specifically the part that you were focused on during your testing!

SD, may I be the first to inform you that your attempt to sabotage TPF by destroying the features you were focused on has completly failed. You not only failed yourself, but you failed the FOF community that was counting on you to make sure TPF was not any kind of competition for Jim and FOF2k4. For shame!

[lynchjm24]

Originally posted by Buccaneer
And that Slapbone, Jason K and Ben were/are all part of the beta team. Which is not a bad thing because I always believe in diversity in testing - you must have different styles playing/testing the same game.

Can you look less professional then your beta team attacking each other in public on your own message boards?

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally posted by sabotai
I missed the 48 pager over there, unfortunately. I think Joe is having one of his "moments" because he's made a couple of pretty insane comments. One being the "look at our deleted threads / ban user ratio". This is funny because 1) The two really have nothing to do with each other and 2) He said this after apparently deleting another thread.

The kicker for me was him claiming there are no fanboys on the .400 forums. Truely classic moments going on tonight.

It was only 48 or so posts I agree with you on everything else in this post.

[sabotai]

Ha! Little brain fart there.

[RedKingGold]

Can't we all just smoke a bong????

[The_herd]

Originally posted by sabotai
SkyDog,

Ah, I replied in that thread, but the action happened aftwards. Darn!

What is especially funny is that most people seem to say that the draft is the best part of the game right now (me included), and that's specifically the part that you were focused on during your testing!

SD, may I be the first to inform you that your attempt to sabotage TPF by destroying the features you were focused on has completly failed. You not only failed yourself, but you failed the FOF community that was counting on you to make sure TPF was not any kind of competition for Jim and FOF2k4. For shame!

Well, if you had read the other thread you would know that SD gets his way no matter what. He obviously tested the hell out of the Draft so he could make himself look better, while in the meantime he was sending messages to Arlie to encourage putting in RTE 91's, system crashes, and implementing a magical spyware that deletes the latest version of DirectX and Jet and replaces them with out of date files.

[miked]

It was deleted because Slapbone tried to make some quotes seem like SD was attacking people and TPF and really made no sense. It was a good deletion as that thread was going nowhere. The behavior of the individuals involved is not a reflection on the professionalism of the developers, moreso the passionate nature of these games I believe.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by sabotai
SD, may I be the first to inform you that your attempt to sabotage TPF by destroying the features you were focused on has completly failed. You not only failed yourself, but you failed the FOF community that was counting on you to make sure TPF was not any kind of competition for Jim and FOF2k4. For shame!

Yeah. I suck as a saboteur. I gotta get better at this One True Dark Jedi thing.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by lynchjm24
Can you look less professional then your beta team attacking each other in public on your own message boards?

I said this in private to Joe, and I'll say it in public here. I'm not going to stand by and get slammed unfairly without responding. Given the unprovoked and harsh nature of the original attack, I believe I contained myself rather well.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally posted by miked
It was deleted because Slapbone tried to make some quotes seem like SD was attacking people and TPF and really made no sense. It was a good deletion as that thread was going nowhere. The behavior of the individuals involved is not a reflection on the professionalism of the developers, moreso the passionate nature of these games I believe.

I would still stand by the logic of closing the thread, perhaps with a comment by the person closing it. Now, you create an air of suspicion about what was in the thread. My imagination is probably making them look even worse then what was actually in the thread.

[Ben E Lou]

Heh....turns out I still had a browser window open from earlier tonight with the first part of the deleted thread. Here goes...

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It really depends on what you want in a football sim. TPF is a 1st generation game and should be treated as such: a great 1st effort but nowhere near FOF as far as realism goes. If eye candy is more important then definately go with TPF. I hope Skydog jumps-in on this because he could give a much better breakdown between the two than I could.

At any rate, definately wait for at least a couple patches before jumping into this one.

yanksfan3333 Posted: Dec 23 2003, 03:29 PM


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I bought FOF while TPF was being delayed over and over again. At that time i had no intent of buying TPF. After playing FOF for a few days, I had to buy TPF once it came out, and it will be (is???) far superior. However I can play FOF without it crashing Only a matter of time before i can do that with TPF.

Nuggett Posted: Dec 23 2003, 03:55 PM


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Does this mean you prefer TPF over FOF????

sabotai Posted: Dec 23 2003, 05:21 PM


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I think it's silly to state one is "much better" or "far superior" to the other. Both do things better than the other, and both have things that the other does not. The thing to do is play the demo of each and decide for yourself (well...no TPF demo and the FOF demo is horrendous...hmm, ok scratch that. )

I think the only thing you can really say with regards to FOF vs. TPF is that FOF plays and feels like a 5th generation product, while TPF plays and feels like a 1st generation product. FOF is the well oiled machine that keeps running, and TPF is the shinny and new.

But, as many predicted before the release of either game this year, they do play differently and focus enough on different things that is possible to play and enjoy both. And they play differently enough to appeal to different types of players.


--------------------

Irregardless Productions -- http://www.irregardless-productions.com

SkyDog Posted: Dec 23 2003, 05:30 PM


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QUOTE (tategter @ Dec 23 2003, 03:14 PM)
I hope Skydog jumps-in on this because he could give a much better breakdown between the two than I could.


Until I have a patch or two of TPF is out, I'd prefer to reserve making any sort of final judgement on TPF. It isn't fair to try to make a full assessment right now. There are crash and bug fixes being done right now, and there will almost surely need to be tweaks of the stats engine as hundreds and hundreds of people begin playing long careers and reporting in on how the game plays out over time. I'd prefer to give it two "bug/crash" patches and a "tweak" patch before I give my full assessment.

As far as FOF2K4 goes, I have a lot of experience with it. First of all, those who tried the FOF2K4 demo without playing the final version, please know that you really have no idea of most parts of the game. Jim chooses, for better or for worse, to use his game demos to let the user make sure the game runs on his system--not to market the game. The demo only runs for the preseason, and a couple of weeks of the regular season. The demo doesn't really reflect any of the areas where FOF2K4 is utterly brilliant.

The immersion level is very good in this game with team chemistry (conflicts and affinities) playing a big role. There is wonderful variety in the player development model. The draft experience is very similar to TPF's (with the exception of Syd). The interface is incredibly functional and usable once you get used to it (much better than the current TPF model, to be honest, but some improvements are coming). Free agency is very well done as well. Finally, the tracking of career stats within the game is utterly amazing. When any all-time records screen is pulled up, for example, you can click on the player who has been retired for 50 years or more to see his full player card. Then, go to his stats screen and you see his year-by-year stats. Then, click on any given year, and it gives you a game-by-game breakdown of his performances. Yup, every single game in his career. The stats tracking is just unbelievable.

If you're interested in a "pretty" game, however, FOF2K4 probably isn't for you. If you need things like pictures of players and nice-looking graphics, then you need to look elsewhere. FOF2K4 won't be your cup of tea. However, if you're looking for a rich, deep experience against a very, very "smart" AI, with silly things (to me) like graphics and sound taking a back seat, then FOF2K4 is a great purchase. There's a great example of how the AI operates in this thread, if you want more info on what I'm talking about.


--------------------

The media don't understand the kinds of problems and pressures 54 million come wit'

FOF Central

SkyDog Posted: Dec 23 2003, 05:33 PM


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Dola--

Here's the short version of the AI story in the thread I mentioned. I was looking back and trying to determine why the AI let the best back in my league's history get away to free agency. Here's what I discovered:
QUOTE
They renegotiated (long extension) with their star QB, tried to sign a big-time offensive tackle (he turned 'em down), then re-signed both of their former starting tackles, signed a solid offensive guard, and signed a solid, non-star RB, who rushed for 1361 yards in 2020.

Results?

They went 12-4 and were the wild-card team in 2019, with Stephenson.
They went 12-4 and won the division in 2020, without him.

Both seasons they lost in the Division round of the playoffs to Philly.




--------------------

The media don't understand the kinds of problems and pressures 54 million come wit'

FOF Central

matter2003 Posted: Dec 23 2003, 06:07 PM


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I have FOF 2004, and while I like it, I feel it is not as realistic as it could/should be in some areas.

For one, the stats are not in line with realistic stats. There are not 8 QB's every year that throw for 4000 yards, nor are there running backs every year that get 400+ carries(a very very rare accomplishment in real life). Way too many QB's play all 16 games, and injuries seem to occur to the same players year after year, while others seem never to get injured(they at least should have some minor tweaks, and strains, I mean the players are not robots.) As for free agency, I don't like it that much.

Too many QB's change teams every year(Manning, McNair, and Favre all changed teams in the same year...please!), and it appears the AI takes a very cut and dry look at players, not taking into account things it should. I mean these players want to get deals done with these teams and will get them done, not go to free agency. Almost no starting QB becomes a free agent in the NFL because they are the leader of their team, and releasing them would set a team back quite a bit. Also, The computer seems to release way, way too many players to get under the cap, then ends up playing the season with $28 million in cap room. I mean every year there are 15 or 20 teams with less than 25 players signed, with a lot of teams having 15 or 17 players under contract. This is absolutely ridiculous. Teams start the offseason with 8-10 million in cap room, then release players to go 58 million under the cap, then sign players and end up with 28 million left....it just doesn't happen. And this is the majority of teams, not just one or two.

I like FOF 2004, but the "realisitc" feel just isn't there for me. It feels like I am playing with and against totally rebuilt teams every year, and while free agency has created some of this, there is no way that it happens to the extent it does in the game...

Matter2003

SkyDog Posted: Dec 23 2003, 06:15 PM


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As I alluded, it is definitely a "to each his own" kind of thing. None of these games are perfect. For me, I don't follow the AI teams very much. I'm more interested in drafting and developing my own players, and seeing how I can tweak my offensive system to match them, and how I can bring in players to match my defensive philosophy.

I'm not sure about how many cap casualties there are as compared to the real NFL, but I do know that "my" team, the Falcons, only kept around 25 players from last year, so less than 25 doesn't seem too unreasonable to me. If it take the AI cutting more players than in real life for it to provide a challenging game experience, then I don't have a big problem with that. I know it is challenging for me, and for my tastes, that is what is most important.


--------------------

The media don't understand the kinds of problems and pressures 54 million come wit'

FOF Central

SlapBone Posted: Dec 23 2003, 06:18 PM


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QUOTE (SkyDog @ Dec 23 2003, 10:30 PM)
Until I have a patch or two of TPF is out, I'd prefer to reserve making any sort of final judgement on TPF. It isn't fair to try to make a full assessment right now. There are crash and bug fixes being done right now, and there will almost surely need to be tweaks of the stats engine as hundreds and hundreds of people begin playing long careers and reporting in on how the game plays out over time. I'd prefer to give it two "bug/crash" patches and a "tweak" patch before I give my full assessment.

As far as FOF2K4 goes, I have a lot of experience with it. First of all, those who tried the FOF2K4 demo without playing the final version, please know that you really have no idea of most parts of the game. Jim chooses, for better or for worse, to use his game demos to let the user make sure the game runs on his system--not to market the game. The demo only runs for the preseason, and a couple of weeks of the regular season. The demo doesn't really reflect any of the areas where FOF2K4 is utterly brilliant.

The immersion level is very good in this game with team chemistry (conflicts and affinities) playing a big role. There is wonderful variety in the player development model. The draft experience is very similar to TPF's (with the exception of Syd). The interface is incredibly functional and usable once you get used to it (much better than the current TPF model, to be honest, but some improvements are coming). Free agency is very well done as well. Finally, the tracking of career stats within the game is utterly amazing. When any all-time records screen is pulled up, for example, you can click on the player who has been retired for 50 years or more to see his full player card. Then, go to his stats screen and you see his year-by-year stats. Then, click on any given year, and it gives you a game-by-game breakdown of his performances. Yup, every single game in his career. The stats tracking is just unbelievable.

If you're interested in a "pretty" game, however, FOF2K4 probably isn't for you. If you need things like pictures of players and nice-looking graphics, then you need to look elsewhere. FOF2K4 won't be your cup of tea. However, if you're looking for a rich, deep experience against a very, very "smart" AI, with silly things (to me) like graphics and sound taking a back seat, then FOF2K4 is a great purchase. There's a great example of how the AI operates in this thread, if you want more info on what I'm talking about.


This is exactly why he should never have been allowed on the TPF beta team. Those of us who have seen him in action know what his final judgement of this game will be given his utterly flabbergasting fanboyism towards that glorified spreadsheet called FOF2K4. Sheesh...he almost creamed himself writing those last 3 paragraphs.

Top 4 things that prove SkyDogs flaming egotistical fanboyism.

1. He came out and set himself up as a expert of all things sim and proceeded to bore us with the details of why.

2. He used the word "utterly" twice when describing the competing game.

3. He propped his own post on his own board to prove that he speaks from a very high authoritative position.

4. He has a history of berating things like graphics and PBP because he realizes that these are things that his "perfect" game will never be able to perfect.

There are many people from the FOF2k4 community that are objective when looking at the many different text sims that the community (as a whole) has been blessed with lately. SkyDog is not one of them. This you can be sure of though; He is an expert in nothing but his chosen game.

Jason Kolodziejski Posted: Dec 23 2003, 06:20 PM


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I have written a review of it for sportsology.net and it will be posted later on tonight.

I like FOF but have really stopped playing it over the years. The game in my opinion has gone stale.

There is a niche group out there like skydog that love spreadsheets, but TPF is trying to capture a much larger market. I believe that TPF is a much more fun and intense game then FOF even with the bugs and few crashes.

If I remember correctly FOF first patch had 50 plus fixes in it.

Antmeister Posted: Dec 23 2003, 06:32 PM


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Whoa. Those are strong words, Slapbone. Skydog has been talking about the potential for TPF for quite some time. In fact I became interested in TPF when I heard about his comments on the FOF boards. Everyone needs to chill out around here. So tense and it is not necessary.

sgreen91 Posted: Dec 23 2003, 06:33 PM


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I must agree with everything SkyDog said. I just got into FOF not a month ago when FOF2K4 was released. I have played it quite a bit since then and enjoy it quite a bit.

I also bought TPF on the release day and like the looks of the game but it hasn't yet got me hooked like FOF did the first day I bought it. Flashy graphics don't make a game great its the sim engine underneath that does, thats probably why I prefer FOF right now.

I understand its a new game and FOF has been around the block and I will give my fair shot to TPF as I await the patches to come.

Its like SD said FOF runs very well and bug free but it also took 5 or 6 years to get it that way. I think TPF will do that in a shorter amount of time with the knowledge they have.

Sean

matter2003 Posted: Dec 23 2003, 06:35 PM


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Yes, but that is my whole point...the sim engine in FOF 2004 isn't very good...

Look at your simulated stats for a year, then go and look and real NFL stats and you will see a monumental difference.


Jason Kolodziejski Posted: Dec 23 2003, 06:35 PM


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bug free? Bull crap there were over 50 things fixed and tweaked in that damn game. "Meaning FOF"

If you coached your games there were gamestopping bugs on release, weird AI in the play by play, less then steller averages for Yards Per Carry. etc.....

Jason Kolodziejski Posted: Dec 23 2003, 06:37 PM


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The following items were fixed for version 5.0b of Front Office Football 2004 (items 50-69 were added after 5.0a was released - all 5.0a fixes are included in 5.0b):

1. When importing a TCY or generated draft file into XP, game will no longer crash.

2. Unnecessary Roughness and Intentional Face Mask penalities should go for automatic first downs.

3. Do not allow penalty to interfere with fumble on punt or kickoff returned for touchdown, causing extra point for wrong team.

4. Correct display problem with negative rushing averages on scouting report screen.

5. Penalties are correctly accepted and declined with field goal attempts.

6. Illegal Shift penalties are now accepted when play gains enough yardage to make that the correct choice.

7. Teams are no longer allowed one free out-of-bounds kick on an onside kick attempt.

8. Correctly name help contents file in installation.

9. Allow playing time to reset when option for automatic depth charts turned off, but locks in place when using scout recommend button on depth chart screens.

10. For full or preference drafts, assign players with one-year contracts a last signing date of the previous year, allowing renegotiations

11. When a player is suspended, the player's last name in email should always be correctly referenced.

12. Allow saving and exit of initial complete draft, which will give multi-player leagues full access to player information during the draft.

13. Default to current role when offering a staff member a contract during staff hiring stage.

14. Increase owner contract restriction threshold for staff offers.

15. After changing a player's number, make sure other player numbers aren't changed as well when backing out of a change while the player screen is still open.

16. Use correct names in depth chart during offensive play-calling and in defensive statistics.

17. All safeties to have generated punt and kick return ratings from initial player file.

18. Improve clock management for cases where team is driving for winning field goal in the last minute of the game.

19. Move foul point on holding calls on kickoff returns closer to the end of the return.

20. Eliminate penalties that result in ball being placed on the goal line.

21. Add a piece to try and prevent half from ending on defensive penalty when play-calling is active.

22. Don't allow time outs during change of possession for loss of downs.

23. Display roster count correctly on roster screen when rookies sign new contracts.

24. Tweak the rookie holdout algorithm to allow teams to make slightly better offers as season begins.

25. Add to rejection message during free agency to reflect desire for much larger bonus when trying to extend contract over the length the player is requesting.

26. Add special teams ratings for running backs and receivers to sort options on recommend screen.

27. Email when tight end is holding out should indicate he's a tight end, not a wide receiver.

28. Suppress repeated email generation during season when exiting simulation window and still in current week.

29. When controlling draft, controlled team can no longer make first pick in eighth round.

30. Give human-controlled teams status email during the bye week (note: this is not available in multi-player games).

31. Scoreboard indication of running into the kicker correctly displayed.

32. Change free agent salary filters on recommend screen to reflect only the first-year cap burden.

33. Agent counts of players represented now updated after each draft creation.

34. Add corrupt game plan notice when the game plan file is too short.

35. The same player should not be allowed to be both the holder and the kicker on a play.

36. When in overtime, offense should become very conservative deep in opposing territory.

37. Allow proper display of the coach of the year in the award screen when coach is first in coach list.

38. Decrease likelihood that players not well suited to play LT are moved from RT to LT when there's a need.

39. Players should remain suspended after being released.

40. The email text for a veteran holdout returning to active duty without a new contract should not have bogus characters before the player's name.

41. Correct the franchise player confirmation box, as this is no longer an automatic release.

42. Adjust the hall of fame inclusion threshold.

43. Add team leader status to individual player screens.

44. Change instructions for building player files to reflect new default size of initial player file.

45. Reverse the yes and no buttons on the option for continuing after being fired to correctly reflect the answer to the question being posed.

46. Add a digit of significance to overall team and league totals for rushing average and passing attempt average on team statistics screen.

47. Lower variety of interpretation of quarterback and receiver ratings to eliminate statistics that don't reflect the state of professional football in 2003 (there should be few 4,000-yard passers and very, very few 1,800-yard receivers).

48. Increase yards per carry slightly, as this has increased in professional football the last couple of years.

49. Move the championship game to warm weather regions rather than the region of the team with the better record.

50. Teams should not take a knee in the closing seconds of the first half on fourth down.

51. When in an end-game situation, teams should go for the field goal when out of time outs in the closing seconds when appropriate (corrects bad fix for 36 above).

52. Fix crash on view play in unusual situations where less than 46 players are active.

53. Slightly lower chance teams may choose to run a 34 defense.

54. Change ratings in initial game file to slightly lower overall ratings, evening out positions and reflecting some breakout 2003 performances..

55. Display Kick return averages correctly on career statistics screen.

56. Only erase end of week emails at the end of the week.

57. In rare circumstance where there was a fumble on a running play at a specific time, the drive chart now correctly displays the following drive.

58. When signing human-owned free agents in single-player during free agency period, game now correctly displays seventh year of contract, if offered.

59. Raised a Denver player's age from 16 to 26.

60. Fixed a couple of problems with fourth-down penalties and touchdown penalties incorrectly accepted or declined.

61. Don't allow quarterbacks to come back to the game if ejected for bad sportsmanship.

62. Correctly display names of players in play-calling view screen after season one.

63. Don't allow view of draft order during first season, where it's irrelevant.

64. Correctly generate kick holding ratings for players imported from college game.

65. Allow teams to milk the clock a little more when in the lead late in the game.

66. Shorten individual maximum field goals attempted and slightly lower long field goal success rate while increasing short field goal success rate.

67. When viewing schedules through power ratings screen, right-clicking to access top performances no longer crashes.

68. When selecting Any Receiver in a formation, default to receivers who don't appear in the backfield depth chart.

69. Some penalties on kick plays should not end a half, even if time has expired.

Umm that doesn't look bug free to me?

maximus Posted: Dec 23 2003, 06:44 PM


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In NO doubt TPF will be the best football sim to date after a few patches/fixes. I can care less about what anyone here, there, anywhere has to say about it. No other company has listened and have given ear to our "wants"...."needs".....and "wishes". EA can bit me and so can other companies that could really care less about the sim football fan.


TPF has "nearly" brought both worlds together. I am talking about the GM and coaching aspects. After a few addons, patches, and enhancements....... sim football will never be the same. Fanboy or not, I am a 29 yr old who loves football sims. I have been waiting for a game like this to come out. FOF didn't do it for me. Madden didn't do it for me. FBpro did...but then died.

Erithtotl Posted: Dec 23 2003, 06:47 PM


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Wow, this thread has really devolved. All I wanted were the pros and cons of FOF vs. TPF, and instead I get a flame war. Jesus people chill the hell out.

First, I think FOF4 is an excellent game. I do think that people are ready for a change mostly because it has not undergone dramatic improvement since version 2 several years ago. The kinds of improvements have been VERY incremental in nature. So now I'm looking for a new franchise that will come in and push the envelope.

Apparently it doesn't seem people are really capable of doing that here. What I do hear is that TPF has some excellent potential but probably needs some serious patching (despite a few problems, FOF 2004 was perfectly playable out of the box, list of bugs or no).

sgreen91 Posted: Dec 23 2003, 06:48 PM


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I don't think any game ever (maybe in 2050) will ever create exact stats that occur in real sports. These are games with 1's and 0's and random number generators figuring yardage etc.

Personally though I don't know if it recreates the actual NFL stats down to .1 yards per game so I can't comment on that. I don't use it as a stats engine I use it to see if I can win the big bowl on Sunday after taking a rotten team and through drafting and free agency create that ultimate dynasty.

Its just a game where we play in a make believe world of being a wannabe GM of some fake football team. We should play the game for enjoyment and entertainment.

Yes there were bugs in the release and they were patched. Hell, there are bugs in every game released in the software market to date. A normal procedure when I buy a game before I ever install it is go download the patch.

I have nothing against TPF. I bought it. I'm not returning it so I support the developers. I look forward to when all the bugs are patched and I can also start a new league in TPF running along with my FOF league.





Jason Kolodziejski Posted: Dec 23 2003, 07:32 PM


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My point in posting the bug list was simply to give an example whether a game is first generation of 5th gen, there are bugs. And yes FOF 2004 had some crash bugs on release.

TPF is playable out of the box right now for most people. I have 3 franchises going.

I am not going to sit here when people try and make TPF out to be some kind of buggy game that is not playable. Its simply not true and to say FOF was released without bugs and crashes is just a flat out lie.



lynchjm24 Posted: Dec 23 2003, 07:34 PM


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QUOTE (Erithtotl @ Dec 23 2003, 06:47 PM)


First, I think FOF4 is an excellent game. I do think that people are ready for a change mostly because it has not undergone dramatic improvement since version 2 several years ago. The kinds of improvements have been VERY incremental in nature. So now I'm looking for a new franchise that will come in and push the envelope.




If you think FOF4 is a good game, then FOF2K4 is so far ahead of it, there is no way you'll be disappointed.


SkyDog Posted: Dec 23 2003, 07:39 PM


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QUOTE (SlapBone @ Dec 23 2003, 06:18 PM)
QUOTE (SkyDog @ Dec 23 2003, 10:30 PM)
Until I have a patch or two of TPF is out, I'd prefer to reserve making any sort of final judgement on TPF. It isn't fair to try to make a full assessment right now. There are crash and bug fixes being done right now, and there will almost surely need to be tweaks of the stats engine as hundreds and hundreds of people begin playing long careers and reporting in on how the game plays out over time. I'd prefer to give it two "bug/crash" patches and a "tweak" patch before I give my full assessment.

As far as FOF2K4 goes, I have a lot of experience with it. First of all, those who tried the FOF2K4 demo without playing the final version, please know that you really have no idea of most parts of the game. Jim chooses, for better or for worse, to use his game demos to let the user make sure the game runs on his system--not to market the game. The demo only runs for the preseason, and a couple of weeks of the regular season. The demo doesn't really reflect any of the areas where FOF2K4 is utterly brilliant.

The immersion level is very good in this game with team chemistry (conflicts and affinities) playing a big role. There is wonderful variety in the player development model. The draft experience is very similar to TPF's (with the exception of Syd). The interface is incredibly functional and usable once you get used to it (much better than the current TPF model, to be honest, but some improvements are coming). Free agency is very well done as well. Finally, the tracking of career stats within the game is utterly amazing. When any all-time records screen is pulled up, for example, you can click on the player who has been retired for 50 years or more to see his full player card. Then, go to his stats screen and you see his year-by-year stats. Then, click on any given year, and it gives you a game-by-game breakdown of his performances. Yup, every single game in his career. The stats tracking is just unbelievable.

If you're interested in a "pretty" game, however, FOF2K4 probably isn't for you. If you need things like pictures of players and nice-looking graphics, then you need to look elsewhere. FOF2K4 won't be your cup of tea. However, if you're looking for a rich, deep experience against a very, very "smart" AI, with silly things (to me) like graphics and sound taking a back seat, then FOF2K4 is a great purchase. There's a great example of how the AI operates in this thread, if you want more info on what I'm talking about.


This is exactly why he should never have been allowed on the TPF beta team. Those of us who have seen him in action know what his final judgement of this game will be given his utterly flabbergasting fanboyism towards that glorified spreadsheet called FOF2K4. Sheesh...he almost creamed himself writing those last 3 paragraphs.

Top 4 things that prove SkyDogs flaming egotistical fanboyism.

1. He came out and set himself up as a expert of all things sim and proceeded to bore us with the details of why.

2. He used the word "utterly" twice when describing the competing game.

3. He propped his own post on his own board to prove that he speaks from a very high authoritative position.

4. He has a history of berating things like graphics and PBP because he realizes that these are things that his "perfect" game will never be able to perfect.

There are many people from the FOF2k4 community that are objective when looking at the many different text sims that the community (as a whole) has been blessed with lately. SkyDog is not one of them. This you can be sure of though; He is an expert in nothing but his chosen game.


ROFLMBAO!!!!

SlapBone, thanks for your two cents, but please allow me to offer you a little change. First, let me respond to the specific charges.

"1. He came out and set himself up as a expert of all things sim and proceeded to bore us with the details of why."

Hmmmm. I'm not sure where I came out and set myself up. A guy specifically asked for my opinion, so I gave it.

"2. He used the word "utterly" twice when describing the competing game."

Wow. I didn't realize that you, SlapBone, were the grammar police. My apologies for using the same word twice in a four-paragraph post.

"3. He propped his own post on his own board to prove that he speaks from a very high authoritative position."

SlapBone, I guess you're not only the grammar police, but you also can read my mind and know my motives. Impressive.

However, I hate to have to report to you that your clairvoyance is a bit lacking in this case. I linked to the post to give a specific example of something I was discussing.

"4. He has a history of berating things like graphics and PBP because he realizes that these are things that his "perfect" game will never be able to perfect.

A. Dang, you're 0 for 2 on the mind-reading front today. You're slippin' man. Nope. I have a history of berating things like graphics and PBP because I don't care one iota about them. If FOF2K4 had the best graphics and PBP in the world, I would be only vaguely familiar with them, since i still wouldn't use them. I have no interest whatsoever in PBP. None. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

B. Interesting that you'd put "perfect" in quotes, considering I never called it that. Quite frankly, I have no loyalties whatsoever when it comes to my own personal enjoyment. If Adolf Hitler, Saddam Hussein, or even Bill Clinton could wrote a computer game that I enjoyed playing more than FOF2K4 or TPF, I'd uninstall both of 'em tomorrow without a second's glance back. No, I haven't found the perfect game yet, but when/if I do, everything else will take a back seat.



Next, on to this little choice comment: This is exactly why he should never have been allowed on the TPF beta team. Those of us who have seen him in action know what his final judgement of this game will be given his utterly flabbergasting fanboyism towards that glorified spreadsheet called FOF2K4.

Hmmm....

1. Joe, Arlie and nearly all of the .400 staff knew exactly what they were getting with me. I wasn't exactly an unknown commodity to them going into this. So ultimately, if you have an issue there, you should really take it up with .400, not me. While you're at it, ask them if they think I've done a good job and was a valued member of the team. You might just be surprised.

2. That's interesting that you "know exactly what my final judgement of this game will be." I don't even know what my final judgement of this game will be. Perhaps this time, your ESP will be more accurate, but somehow I doubt it.


Next, considering the many requests for changes, fixes and patches I've sent in Jim's direction over the years, combined with the several direct and public criticisms I've voiced over his way of doing things at times, there's no justifiable way to call me a Solecismic fanboy. Heck, I shelved FOF4, the release prior to FOF2K4, pretty quickly and moved on to other games. Any charge of blind allegiance to Solecismic games (or any other games) just ain't gonna hold up.

Finally, I offer my apologies, for I suspect that I may have used the word "the" way too many times in this post for your tastes.

Regards:

--Ben


--------------------

The media don't understand the kinds of problems and pressures 54 million come wit'

FOF Central

ahbrady Posted: Dec 23 2003, 07:49 PM


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Wow, this thread has turned pretty ugly. I have played several different versions of FOF and have been lurking (and posting rarely) on FOFC for quite a while. I think Skydog has done a lot to promote this game over there. He helped me come to the conclusion that I should purchase this game by reading all of his opinions on the beta version. I'm sure he probably likes FOF better than TPF, but I don't think he has said anything negative about TPF at all. He is entitled to his own opinion.

Not that anyone cares, but to me TPF is far more enjoyable than FOF. I guess I like a little "eye-candy." And this is an often overused phrase in the world of text sims, but I think it is much more immersive than any sim I've played in any sport. CM probably would be more, but I couldn't ever get over the hump of my disdain for soccer to thoroughly enjoy it. I'm not going to argue about which has more accurate stats. TPF's stats may not be perfect, but to me they are plenty good. I haven't noticed any glaring errors in my short career.

Kelly J Delaney Posted: Dec 23 2003, 07:51 PM


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Ben,

I still love you.


--------------------

Kelly J Delaney
Las Vegas Outlaws
In the NAFL calendar, this is the year of the Outlaws.

lynchjm24 Posted: Dec 23 2003, 07:59 PM


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QUOTE (ahbrady @ Dec 23 2003, 07:49 PM)
Wow, this thread has turned pretty ugly. I have played several different versions of FOF and have been lurking (and posting rarely) on FOFC for quite a while. I think Skydog has done a lot to promote this game over there. He helped me come to the conclusion that I should purchase this game by reading all of his opinions on the beta version. I'm sure he probably likes FOF better than TPF, but I don't think he has said anything negative about TPF at all. He is entitled to his own opinion.



Not that anyone really cares, but the chances of me buying this game sooner versus later increased the second I heard he was working on the beta team.

If only they had Quiksand as well.....

Jason Kolodziejski Posted: Dec 23 2003, 07:59 PM


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If this was FOF boards he would of just deleted slapbones post and banned. Don't disagree with Ben!!

Come on skydog, we both know you are sitting at home pleasing yourself to all the attention you create. Your "unauthrized NDA Violating Preview" where you didn't say anything except what had been said already. You put unauthorzied, because you crave attention. You come into this thread and praise FOF but also leave yourself that squirm room by saying in a few patches......TPF might be the one.

Yep, I think you have been a decent better tester when you weren't throwing hidden daggers all over the place.


Funny Ben, you say you withhold judgement till the tweaks and bug fix patches come in but then you say


QUOTE

The immersion level is very good in this game with team chemistry (conflicts and affinities) playing a big role. There is wonderful variety in the player development model. The draft experience is very similar to TPF's (with the exception of Syd). The interface is incredibly functional and usable once you get used to it (much better than the current TPF model, to be honest, but some improvements are coming).



looks like judgement to me?

Can we just get a little consistancy? Please!

You are the cloak and dagger master, or as I like to say two faced backstabber!

[miked]

Nah....your imagination isn't lying to you. The quotes were way off base and really negative/childish (in my opinion). Joe mentioned it in a different thread that he was not liking the direction of that forum, and slapbone admitted that it was most likely his quoting....

[lynchjm24]

Originally posted by SkyDog
I said this in private to Joe, and I'll say it in public here. I'm not going to stand by and get slammed unfairly without responding. Given the unprovoked and harsh nature of the original attack, I believe I contained myself rather well.

Sorry I wrote that as someone who got to read the whole thing.
To anyone who saw the thread it was clear that Slapbone jumped all over SkyDog and he very calmly and clearly dealt with the insanity.

Edit: And now it's posted so I don't look like a SkyDog fanboy.

[Ben E Lou]

http://www.400softwarestudios.com/in...howtopic=46177

[sabotai]

SD< that thread he started is HI-larious.

[Ben E Lou]

Dola--I'm guessing the above thread will get deleted very soon. It was also started by our man Jason K. Here goes...

Couple points I would like to make here.

Point# 1: FOF (just like Mogul) was innovative - 5 years ago. But the developers rested on their laurels. Now, these games are being marginalized, and the hardcore supporters don't want to accept that.


Point # 2: Skydog wants the sim crowd to feel that FOF Central is an unbiased place to come and talk about sports and sports games. Yet, in every instance where someone disagrees with skydog or the circle jerk cronies the path that is taken is one of a banning and thread locking. UMM CHANGE THE NAME IF YOU WANT A SMIGEON OF RESPECT for being unbiased

Point # 3: TPF and .400 along with OOTP developments are breaking new ground in sports managment sims here in the US. They are blending the old and the new and taking chances and really putting themselves out there.

Point # 4: You can have nice graphics and a good stat engine.

Point # 5: If you want an unbiased look at sim management games, come to these forums. I've never seen a group of developers that allow themselves to be bashed and praised without taking a heavy handed approach either way.

Point # 6: I don't feel skydog is impartial as many threads prove on FOFC.

Point # 7: The most important point. I loved Front Office Football and I wrote both reviews of these games completely unbiased. I am not getting paid by either company and both games scored over 4 stars out of 5. I have no hidden agenda and it is my desire for FOF to actually respond to competition so we have NO MONOPLIES at all of the Football sim world. "MADDEN vs ESPN/NFL2k series is a good thing" FOF vs TPF is a good thing for our world.

link to FOF Review http://www.footballology.com/videogamesart...p3?ArticleID=67
Link to TPF Review http://www.footballology.com/videogamesart...p3?ArticleID=71

Point # 8: TPF took chances with their game period. Its like a diver or a gymnest or skateboarder, you score points for difficulty. Well TPF is alot harder to pull off then FOF PERIOD. So they are going to get a bit more leadway and time down the stretch to get it right.

Point # 9: FOF is at least a 5 Gen product and the bugs that were present at release in terms of gameplay 69 of them I believe, are alot more inexcuseable then the bugs at TPF's inaugrial release. This is me as a reviewer saying this.

Point #10: I wish SI GAMES in england would make a USA FOOTBALL SIM because they make the best game on the market period. TPF was the first attempt by any company in the US to get to their level and so far I like what they have done.

Point #11: Stats can be accurate even with pretty graphics.

Point #12: FOFC is nothing but a fanboy haven. People talk about sticking their genitials in mash potatoes, call each other deratory names, talk about sexual preference along with a host of other things. But, let someone come in there and talk about FOF in a negative way or .400 in a postive way and you are going to get into flame wars and eventual bannings.

Point #13: Thanks for your time I hope you guys like both games and we will be putting up boards at www.sportsology.net and having discussions on our radio show, so we can have a truely unbiased place to go and discuss games.

You will be able to talk about games and argue about them, but no talking about humping mash potatoes.

[The_herd]

If you really were the true dark jedi I hope you would have gone ninja on his ass by now.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Can you look less professional then your beta team attacking each other in public on your own message boards?

Actually, that would probably be topped by having developers & beta testers engage each other in open warfare on their own message boards.

[Ben E Lou]

Bam. Thread deleted. THAT one was easy to see coming.

[sabotai]

That threads deleted / ban user ratio is starting to shoot through the roof tonight!

[Ben E Lou]

Heck, once the holidays are over, I might just un-ban Jason K. The UIC factor alone might be worth the headaches.

[The_herd]

Originally posted by sabotai
That threads deleted / ban user ratio is starting to shoot through the roof tonight!

*Conjure's up Jedi Powers*

"But there are no Fanboy's at .400"

[The_herd]

Originally posted by SkyDog
Heck, once the holidays are over, I might just un-ban Jason K. The UIC factor alone might be worth the headaches.

At least his Rap's were entertaining.

[Buccaneer]

I guess Joe S. is not familiar with Buccaneer and Angfdsadrfdsf.

[Subby]

Wow. Joe and Arlie have to be pleased to have Jason K and Slapbone stumping for them...its like they pumped maximus full of corn syrup and sea monkeys until he spontaneously cloned...maybe a mechanized clone army is being amassed nearby.

Or maybe I've just had waaaaay too much eggnog.

[Ben E Lou]

Welcome!

The boards will be taken down for a few moments. Please take a moment and step back, and remember that this is a place for game and sports discussion, and technical support. .400 Software Studios is very liberal in the management of these forums, and we really do want to have to start micro-managing the forums for objectionable content.

The board will be back online in 20 minutes.

Joe Stallings
CEO
.400 Software Studios

[Eaglesfan27]

I'm missing all the good stuff .. I tried the link and the forum is down.

Thanks for posting the recap from the other thread.

[yabanci]

Jason K, November 17, 2003:
"Like A Fine Wine, Front Office Football Gets Better With Age. FOF is the best NFL Simulation ever made. Its king of the mountain and only gets better year in and year out. "

Jason K, December 23, 2003:
Fof is "stale." "FOF was innovative - 5 years ago. But the developers rested on their laurels. Now, these games are being marginalized, and the hardcore supporters don't want to accept that."

Sort of says it all.

[HornedFrog Purple]

Originally posted by Subby
Wow. Joe and Arlie have to be pleased to have Jason K and Slapbone stumping for them...its like they pumped maximus full of corn syrup and sea monkeys until he spontaneously cloned...maybe a mechanized clone army is being amassed nearby.

Or maybe I've just had waaaaay too much eggnog.

Have they reached bot status yet?

[sabotai]

Am I the only laughing over this? I hope not.

[Eaglesfan27]

dola.. quote from the board

Welcome!

The boards will be taken down for a few moments. Please take a moment and step back, and remember that this is a place for game and sports discussion, and technical support. .400 Software Studios is very liberal in the management of these forums, and we really do want to have to start micro-managing the forums for objectionable content.

The board will be back online in 20 minutes.

Joe Stallings
CEO
.400 Software Studios

I know it's a typo, but I find it hilarious that "we really DO want to have to start micro-managing the forum for objectional content"

[sabotai]

I noticed that too Eagles. Quite funny.

[sabotai]

dola,

Joe edited it.