Palmerio Suspended

[WSUCougar]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

He's too beefy.

You mean like a Gordita?

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

You mean like a Gordita?

If that helps you, yes.

Think of him as a Triple Cheeseburger.

[Pacersfan46]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

If that helps you, yes.

Think of him as a Triple Cheeseburger.

Reminds me of when years back, McDonalds had their triple cheeseburgers for 99 cents.

Speaking of food .... WHERE'S MY DAMN PIZZA! I'm going to decapitate that Papa Johns guy.

[WSUCougar]

Originally Posted by Pacersfan46

WHERE'S MY DAMN PIZZA! I'm going to decapitate that Papa Johns guy.

Well, see, now we've got you. If a pizza guy gets decapitated anywhere near Indianapolis, you're toast, pal.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

Well, see, now we've got you. If a pizza guy gets decapitated anywhere near Indianapolis, you're toast, pal.

that's true hunger to be inspired to decapitation.

[Pacersfan46]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

Well, see, now we've got you. If a pizza guy gets decapitated anywhere near Indianapolis, you're toast, pal.

Damn ... that'd be messed up if it did happen .... you guys wouldn't call the cops thinking I'd really do it ..... would you?

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

So what's Raffy saying, he took collateral 'roid damage? He sat on an abandoned juice needle? A mosquito that had sucked blood from Canseco randomly landed on him next? I can't wait to hear more details...

Anyone know if his locker is next to Sosa's?

[hhiipp]

Originally Posted by Pacersfan46

Damn ... that'd be messed up if it did happen .... you guys wouldn't call the cops thinking I'd really do it ..... would you?

Sure we would, I mean someone from here did get Hornsmaniac fired.

[hhiipp]

Dola, maybe it's second hand roids?

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Senator

Tony Gwynn may have been the last pure hitter.

Not Pujolis?

How about Ichiro?

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Anyone know if his locker is next to Sosa's?

No, but rumor has it that he has some weird thing about having to use the toilet right after Sammy.

[rkmsuf]

Maybe Sosa gave him a swirly.

[Pacersfan46]

Originally Posted by hhiipp

Sure we would, I mean someone from here did get Hornsmaniac fired.

Huh, what of do you speak?

[hhiipp]

Originally Posted by Pacersfan46

Huh, what of do you speak?

http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~fof/foru...ead.php?t=8914

[Raven]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Anyone know if his locker is next to Sosa's?

Well Sammy sure as hell ain't using this year. If he is, then he needs to up the intake.

[HomerJSimpson]

Palmero confirmed on his conference call that it was steriods that he tested positive for, but he has no idea how it got into his system.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Not Pujolis?

How about Ichiro?

You know Ichiro is on the Japanese juice. It just makes him get infield hits instead of Home Runs. Their steroid technology hasn't caught up to ours yet .

[panerd]

What gets me is how much shit McGwire got for being at least somewhat honest. All of the other players can just flat out lie and the media gives them a pass but McGwire decides to be ambigous and his whole legacy is tarnished.

[WSUCougar]

Well, I like Big Mac and all, but damn. He acted like a teenager trying to talk his way past his Dad. Palmeiro at least sounded convincing in front of Congress.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by panerd

What gets me is how much shit McGwire got for being at least somewhat honest. All of the other players can just flat out lie and the media gives them a pass but McGwire decides to be ambigous and his whole legacy is tarnished.

I agree. The questions they were asking McGwire were setup questions - "have you ever used steroids?" and stuff like that. Well, damn - when Mac started his career, 'roids were LEGAL. So if he says yes, but only when they were legal, he confirms steriod use AND they'll think he's a liar.

[Chubby]

i'll go out on a limb and say Raffy gets a pretty serious injury in the next month. No roids = no recovery, see Bonds, Barry.

[vtbub]

Any legal eagles wanna PM me?

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

I agree. The questions they were asking McGwire were setup questions - "have you ever used steroids?" and stuff like that. Well, damn - when Mac started his career, 'roids were LEGAL. So if he says yes, but only when they were legal, he confirms steriod use AND they'll think he's a liar.

No, they were never legal. They weren't banned from baseball, but they were against US law.

But BigMac didn't tell the truth. He didn't lie. He just kept sidestepping question after question.

Palmero came off as convincing because of how he answered the questions. That's certainly ruined now, but it does nothing to save BigMac from the shame he put himself in that day.

The sad thing? The only person who was probably telling the truth to the senate that day was none other than Jose Canseco. At its face, he was the least believable guy in that room. But nothing he said that day (I'm not talking about the book where there were lies and errors) in front of congress seems to be pretty dead on.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by TroyF

The sad thing? The only person who was probably telling the truth to the senate that day was none other than Jose Canseco.

Surprisingly, this seems to be the direction it's headed. Canseco was the only one who admitted steroid use and the people he fingered are slowly being revealed as closet users.

FWIW, while the collective bargaining agreement does not allow the MLB to confirm that steroids are the cause of the suspension, you automatically know because the 10-game suspension and subsequent repeat violations penalities for violation of the league's drug policy are the only mandated penalties in the CBA and they only apply to performance enhancers. MLB can suspend players for illegal drug use (i.e. cocaine) but can only do so after the player has been caught by the police and then the penalties fall under either conduct or best interest of baseball.

The "I-didn't-know-they-were-steroids" defense doesn't work very well in this case. Oddly, Palmeiro's Viagra pimping makes me less likely to believe him because they would suggest that he is a "anything for an advantage" guy.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by panerd

What gets me is how much shit McGwire got for being at least somewhat honest. All of the other players can just flat out lie and the media gives them a pass but McGwire decides to be ambigous and his whole legacy is tarnished.

I don't know if I understand this. Palmeiro didn't get grief earlier because a lot of people believed he was telling the truth that he didn't use steroids. Jose Canseco got a lot more crap than McGwire did, and I think Bonds has too.

I also think the case for McGwire being "somewhat honest" is weak. He has been asked if he used steroids and he refuses to answer the question. If people ask you a simple yes or not question and your answer is "I'm not going to go into the past or talk about my past," then people are going to conclude that you used steroids. He may not have "lied," but he appears dishonest.

McGwire has done everything he could to keep his legacy. We're not talking about a court of law, we're talking about public opinion --I don't think he deserves milk and cookies for being evasive.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Put me in the camp of those who were surprised to very surprised when they heard this one today.

Not because of his testimony really, but more because of what someone else mentioned earlier, the lack of any real monster season to make him stand out. That said though, I thought Canseco was the most credible witness throughout the whole round of public commentary.

[Jets80]

Originally Posted by panerd

What gets me is how much shit McGwire got for being at least somewhat honest. All of the other players can just flat out lie and the media gives them a pass but McGwire decides to be ambigous and his whole legacy is tarnished.

Honest ?? McGwire wasn't honest at all. He took the 5th and wouldn't say a word.

[Buccaneer]

Good (that Palmy got busted). What a hypoctical and ignorant asshole. I am to the point that I really hope that none of the 1990s sluggers make it the Hall. Yes, including McGwire. Fans whine and cry about Rose ruining the "integrity" of the game. I would say steriods usage had far more effect on the game as a whole. I now regret rooting for Big Mac in 1998 and I hope that when history looks back on 1995-2004, they will recognize it as a period as bad as the 1910s. I have been turned off from baseball since the mid-1990s, excepting for 1998 (the Selig Era?) for the same reason I deplore the "power and aggressiveness" trend in all sports in the past 10 years - the instant gratification of a commercialistic entertainment and selfish endeavors at the expense of sportmanship and natural abilities. Not saying what happened in previous eras were clean but certainly not to the extent of what had been going on.

So there.

[Rizon]

Alot of people owe me money now. I've said that viagra dude has been on the shit for years now.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

I don't know if I understand this. Palmeiro didn't get grief earlier because a lot of people believed he was telling the truth that he didn't use steroids. Jose Canseco got a lot more crap than McGwire did, and I think Bonds has too.

I also think the case for McGwire being "somewhat honest" is weak. He has been asked if he used steroids and he refuses to answer the question. If people ask you a simple yes or not question and your answer is "I'm not going to go into the past or talk about my past," then people are going to conclude that you used steroids. He may not have "lied," but he appears dishonest.

McGwire has done everything he could to keep his legacy. We're not talking about a court of law, we're talking about public opinion --I don't think he deserves milk and cookies for being evasive.

I guess my wording may have thrown my original point off. Following the hearing everyone was ripping on McGwire for his evasiveness and cheering Palmeiro for his finger-pointing. I just say kudos to McGwire for at least not outright lying to us like Palmeiro (and I am 99% certain Sosa) did.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Jets80

Honest ?? McGwire wasn't honest at all. He took the 5th and wouldn't say a word.

For one, I agree that McGwire almost certainly used steriods. But I also agree with his statement about the past. Imagine this exchange...

"Did you use steriods?"
"No"
"Did Terry Steinbach?"
"No"
"Did Walt Weiss"
"I take the 5th"

He was preempting this situation of indirectly implicating teammates and managers (clears throat) by not answering any questions.

[dawgfan]

If I remember correctly from previous articles and discussions about this subject, some legal supplements have the potential to contain elements that would show up as a positive on a test for steroids. Before I go condemning Palmeiro and assuming he's lying, I'd like to see this presumption refuted. Because if it's true that you can get positive results on a steroids test for traces of substances included in legal supplements, then I feel compelled to believe that Palmeiro is telling the truth.

That said, this whole issue has received enough publicity in the last year that any player that isn't having doctors and nutritionists scrutinizing every kind of supplement and drug they put in their body to make sure they won't accidentally get a positive on a steroid test is a moron and deserves what they get.

As for Bucc's tired old rant, he's just bitter that the game has changed and the numbers he was used to seeing in the game when he was growing up are no longer the norm. Sorry Bucc, steroids are only a small part of explaining the offensive boom from the '90's on.

[Buccaneer]

When I was growing up, baseball players wore tight-fitting softball uniforms and porn stashes. That can't be any better.

Besides, look around at FOFC. You will see others praising how the game improved or become more watchable this season. You think it's a coincident?

Oh I get it now. Offensive boom and rock-em-sock-em sports sell more video games.

[Philliesfan980]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

When I was growing up, baseball players wore tight-fitting softball uniforms and porn stashes. That can't be any better.

Besides, look around at FOFC. You will see others praising how the game improved or become more watchable this season. You think it's a coincident?

Oh I get it now. Offensive boom and rock-em-sock-em sports sell more video games.

I really have an urge to read Emmit13's dynasty about Darryl Strawberry

[Logan]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

If I remember correctly from previous articles and discussions about this subject, some legal supplements have the potential to contain elements that would show up as a positive on a test for steroids. Before I go condemning Palmeiro and assuming he's lying, I'd like to see this presumption refuted. Because if it's true that you can get positive results on a steroids test for traces of substances included in legal supplements, then I feel compelled to believe that Palmeiro is telling the truth.

That said, this whole issue has received enough publicity in the last year that any player that isn't having doctors and nutritionists scrutinizing every kind of supplement and drug they put in their body to make sure they won't accidentally get a positive on a steroid test is a moron and deserves what they get.

You answered paragraph 1 with paragraph 2. But that's besides the point...I refuse to ever believe these "I unknowingly ingested an illegal steroid" arguments every player who has tested positive has used. Why? Simple...

Not one player has even attempted to make this is a big deal!

If I'm a baseball player, and I regularly take Legal Substance X, and it turns out after a random test that Legal Substance X actually contains small amounts of Illegal Substance Y, you can be sure as hell that I'm not going to hide behind the "confidentiality" of these tests and not tell the public exactly what I tested positive for. I would call a press conference, say something like "It turns out that Legal Substance X contains Illegal Substance Y. Here's a copy of the drug test. Here's a copy of the list of ingredients in my Legal Substance. As you can see, it actually contains a small amount of Illegal Substance Y. This was not made public. I will be suing the makers of Legal Substance X for damages and negligence."

If a player really mistakenly took a steroid, through no fault of his own, do you really think he would stand idly by while his public reputation gets ripped to shreds?

[QuikSand]

The simplest explanation is, as always a strong contender:

Palmeiro is/was a longtime steroid user, more or less just like Canseco said he was.
When asked to testify, he decided to use the "righteous indignation" tact, to best represent innocence.
By doing so, he was essentially gambling that he would never get caught using.
Now he has been caught, and resorts to the convenient "mistaken test result" excuse because some people might believe it.
He is a user, a cheater, and a liar.

So far, there is no other "fact pattern" that I find to be as likely as this one.

[terpkristin]

A side note here: just watched the re-broadcast of last Thursday's "The Daily Show" where Jon Stewart interviewed Bob Costas. It was interesting to hear Bob Costas talk about Raffy and say he was willing to believe Raffy's statement that he'd never used 'roids but then today to get this news....just seemed like interesting timing, in retrospect.

/tk

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

The simplest explanation is, as always a strong contender:

Palmeiro is/was a longtime steroid user, more or less just like Canseco said he was.
When asked to testify, he decided to use the "righteous indignation" tact, to best represent innocence.
By doing so, he was essentially gambling that he would never get caught using.
Now he has been caught, and resorts to the convenient "mistaken test result" excuse because some people might believe it.
He is a user, a cheater, and a liar.

So far, there is no other "fact pattern" that I find to be as likely as this one.

Do you think that's what McGwire did as well, except it was more in preserving his legacy instead of fear of getting caught?

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Logan

You answered paragraph 1 with paragraph 2. But that's besides the point...I refuse to ever believe these "I unknowingly ingested an illegal steroid" arguments every player who has tested positive has used. Why? Simple...

Not one player has even attempted to make this is a big deal!

If I'm a baseball player, and I regularly take Legal Substance X, and it turns out after a random test that Legal Substance X actually contains small amounts of Illegal Substance Y, you can be sure as hell that I'm not going to hide behind the "confidentiality" of these tests and not tell the public exactly what I tested positive for. I would call a press conference, say something like "It turns out that Legal Substance X contains Illegal Substance Y. Here's a copy of the drug test. Here's a copy of the list of ingredients in my Legal Substance. As you can see, it actually contains a small amount of Illegal Substance Y. This was not made public. I will be suing the makers of Legal Substance X for damages and negligence."

If a player really mistakenly took a steroid, through no fault of his own, do you really think he would stand idly by while his public reputation gets ripped to shreds?

You haven't thought this through enough. Let's assume for the moment that Palmeiro is telling the truth that he never knowingly took steroids. He might guess that a legal supplement he took was the source. However, if he specifies this source, he's got to go to great lengths to prove it, or you can bet he'll be sued by the makers of that supplement. He'd need to show that the product he took consistently causes positive steroids tests, and he'd need to provide convincing evidence that he indeed was taking this supplement, and not just having his agent run around testing every product on the market to find one that gives a consistent false positive.

It certainly wouldn't surprise me if Palmeiro was knowingly taking steroids. However I'm yet to be convinced that his denial isn't plausible.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Do you think that's what McGwire did as well, except it was more in preserving his legacy instead of fear of getting caught?

I think McGwire was also a long time user, and simply chose a different strategy in his testimony. Anyone who reads his non-answers as being anything but an admission of his own use is simply hearing what he wants to hear.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Buccanear

I am to the point that I really hope that none of the 1990s sluggers make it the Hall. Yes, including McGwire.

Well prepare to be disappointed . I'm sure that McGwire, Sosa, and Bonds will make it. As for others, I'm sure some will get in eventually. Who they'll be? Have no idea.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

When I was growing up, baseball players wore tight-fitting softball uniforms and porn stashes. That can't be any better.

Besides, look around at FOFC. You will see others praising how the game improved or become more watchable this season. You think it's a coincident?

Oh I get it now. Offensive boom and rock-em-sock-em sports sell more video games.

Get real Bucc - offensive production has helped spur attendence for MLB in the last decade in the wake of the last strike. The general population likes the homerun more than the 2-1 pitching duel.

Others are praising how the game has improved this year? Maybe that's selective hearing on your part. Can you please point out a significant change in the game this year from last that isn't normal statistical variation? Do you suppose the fact that there are as many as 17 teams at the beginning of August with a reasonable shot at the post-season might influence people to be excited with baseball this year?

You've obviously made up your mind that steroids are the primary reason for the offensive boom of the last 10+ years despite plenty of evidence suggesting there are many other factors that are as important if not much more so. The decline in home runs this season has been minimal, with overall numbers still ranking with the numbers from 2-3 seasons ago (despite the injuries to Bonds and Thome).

[Logan]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

You haven't thought this through enough. Let's assume for the moment that Palmeiro is telling the truth that he never knowingly took steroids. He might guess that a legal supplement he took was the source. However, if he specifies this source, he's got to go to great lengths to prove it, or you can bet he'll be sued by the makers of that supplement. He'd need to show that the product he took consistently causes positive steroids tests, and he'd need to provide convincing evidence that he indeed was taking this supplement, and not just having his agent run around testing every product on the market to find one that gives a consistent false positive.

It certainly wouldn't surprise me if Palmeiro was knowingly taking steroids. However I'm yet to be convinced that his denial isn't plausible.

Actually, I did think it through enough . I would still go to any lengths necessary to prove my innocence, especially in this time when there is such sentiment against ballplayers who test positive...especially when I have gone before Congress to testify about my innocence, while I now look like a complete fool...especially when my legacy is depending on it...etc.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

You've obviously made up your mind that steroids are the primary reason for the offensive boom of the last 10+ years despite plenty of evidence suggesting there are many other factors that are as important if not much more so. The decline in home runs this season has been minimal, with overall numbers still ranking with the numbers from 2-3 seasons ago (despite the injuries to Bonds and Thome).

Indeed. I remember, I think it was a Jason Stark article that the entire different between this year and last year wrt to HRs could be explained by Bonds' injury and the off years that Thome and one or two other sluggers had. For all the carping over the less HRs, it really isn't that big of a drop at all. It may have even happened without the testing (ie, within the statistical variance).

[Buccaneer]

The "general population" likes to have its wars broadcast like video games as well. Can one not in the video game business decry the turn-offs of sports and the hype-frenzied media (like those here talking about espn)?

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Logan

Actually, I did think it through enough . I would still go to any lengths necessary to prove my innocence, especially in this time when there is such sentiment against ballplayers who test positive...especially when I have gone before Congress to testify about my innocence, while I now look like a complete fool...especially when my legacy is depending on it...etc.

Then I guess we disagree on the consequences. I figure that, if Palmeiro is telling the truth, it means he and his team haven't been able to get consistent enough results in testing his supplements to feel like they can name it publicly and deal with the almost certain lawsuit to follow from that company. I don't find that implausible.

I also find it plausible that he's lying, and that he knowingly took steroids. But I'm not convinced enough that the alternative isn't plausible to dismiss it either.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Good (that Palmy got busted). What a hypoctical and ignorant asshole. I am to the point that I really hope that none of the 1990s sluggers make it the Hall. Yes, including McGwire. Fans whine and cry about Rose ruining the "integrity" of the game. I would say steriods usage had far more effect on the game as a whole. I now regret rooting for Big Mac in 1998 and I hope that when history looks back on 1995-2004, they will recognize it as a period as bad as the 1910s. I have been turned off from baseball since the mid-1990s, excepting for 1998 (the Selig Era?) for the same reason I deplore the "power and aggressiveness" trend in all sports in the past 10 years - the instant gratification of a commercialistic entertainment and selfish endeavors at the expense of sportmanship and natural abilities. Not saying what happened in previous eras were clean but certainly not to the extent of what had been going on.

So there.

And back in your day, they walked 6 miles uphill in the snow both ways, in the scorching heat, barefoot, with bricks on their back. Or perhaps the amphetamines, or speed, or outright fucking racism, didn't affect baseball in this way. No one knows what the benefits of steroids are - for example, 90-95% of baseball fans believe this to be the greatest offensive era, when the 30's were higher. Steroids may have helped hitters, pitchers, whoever - we don't know. Without knowing what the actual effects were/are, throwing the baby out with the bathwater in an act of self-righteousness does no one any good.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

And back in your day, they walked 6 miles uphill in the snow both ways, in the scorching heat, barefoot, with bricks on their back. Or perhaps the amphetamines, or speed, or outright fucking racism, didn't affect baseball in this way. No one knows what the benefits of steroids are - for example, 90-95% of baseball fans believe this to be the greatest offensive era, when the 30's were higher. Steroids may have helped hitters, pitchers, whoever - we don't know. Without knowing what the actual effects were/are, throwing the baby out with the bathwater in an act of self-righteousness does no one any good.

steroids help recovery injury. of course, unless you actually take themselves yourself and see the results some people won't believe it. gee, i can't imagine why it's taking Barry so long to come back from his knee injury (which required 2 further surgeries)...

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

The simplest explanation is, as always a strong contender:

Palmeiro is/was a longtime steroid user, more or less just like Canseco said he was.
When asked to testify, he decided to use the "righteous indignation" tact, to best represent innocence.
By doing so, he was essentially gambling that he would never get caught using.
Now he has been caught, and resorts to the convenient "mistaken test result" excuse because some people might believe it.
He is a user, a cheater, and a liar.

So far, there is no other "fact pattern" that I find to be as likely as this one.

I find one likely enough to consider.

Palmeiro never obtained what he thought were steroids and injected/took them.

However, like most baseball players he took supplements, a label which allows companies to essentially sell any substance they want as long as they do not promise to cure any disease or illness. Said supplement containted something on the banned list.

Not to give him a free ride, as players need to be held solely responsible for what goes into their bodies, and if such a substance was in his body he deserves the requisite punishment. But given the supplement market, and what people can get away selling as supplements, I certainly find this "fact pattern" to be highly plausible.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Samdari

...I certainly find this "fact pattern" to be highly plausible.

And the fact that you, and plenty of other fairly reasonable people, find this "highly plausible" is exactly why it's the first thing used by pretty much every guilty party who gets caught and publicly embarassed.