Diversity of likes/dislikes is fascinating

[scooper]

Originally posted by Craptacular
Ack, puke, blah! The PT Loser is another design that should go back to the (s)crap heap.

You're going to love the new Honda. I think it's the element. Looks like an old surf wagon.

[dawgfan]

Originally posted by rkmsuf
In defense of the Matrix it was never billed an artistic masterpiece. It did revolutionize special effects and should be at least given credit for that.

I liked it...

Since you mentioned Kubrick can you explain any appeal The Clockwork Orange has?

I don't think anyone's ever claimed the Matrix was an artistic masterpiece, but the clamor and attention paid to the movie was out of proportion with it's inherent artistic worth IMO. Part of this was likely in response to the disappointment many had with the first Star Wars prequel which was released around the same time.

As for A Clockwork Orange, it was a pretty faithful adaptation of the book, which was one of many so-called future negative-utopia books, along with 1984, Farenheit 451 and others. It's was (and still is) a pretty startling look at a possible future for our society, the nature of violence, and governmental responsibility in trying to legislate morality. The performances were right-on as it was Malcolm McDowell's finest hour, and the trademark Kubrick cinematography was in full-bloom, along with his effective use of soundtrack music (what was at the time a very modern, electronic update of Beethoven's music inlcuding much of his 9th Symphony). It's certainly a disquieting film, and not an easy thing to digest, but I think it carries a ton of artistic value and meaty subject matter.

[SplitPersonality1]

Originally posted by rkmsuf
Since you mentioned Kubrick can you explain any appeal The Clockwork Orange has?

Wow.

When I first read rkmsuf's quote, I was in utter shock. "How can anyone see this movie and not recognize it's genius." said the voice in my head.

This statement right here just proves the point AnyBucc was making at the start of this thread.

Fascinating indeed.

[rkmsuf]

I liked dawgfan's reasoning better as a voice inside my head was in utter shock at splits text.

I'm no expert on The Clockwork Orange but it seems the "intelligent" and "informed" movie goers flock to defense of this film the way the "lemmings" and "doufusses" flock to the defense of the Matrix.

Interesting.

[Senator]

I never liked tomatoes but I love ketchup.

[Anrhydeddu]

I'll throw out a few extreme likes/dislikes:

Dislikes:

Literati books
Independent movies (Indies)
Progressive architecture
Hot weather

Likes:

Nature/Ambient music (or what my brother calls "Rainy Tuesday Afternoon By A Babbling Brook" music)
Cooking shows
Cold weather
The Mummy

[Anrhydeddu]

Originally posted by SplitPersonality1
Wow.

When I first read rkmsuf's quote, I was in utter shock. "How can anyone see this movie and not recognize it's genius." said the voice in my head.

This statement right here just proves the point AnyBucc was making at the start of this thread.

Fascinating indeed.

You got it!

Count me as another who thinks all of Kubrick's movies are insanely vulgar, immoral and wholey unwatchable, with no redeeming value whatsover. At least Bogart's movies can have some entertainment value to them.

[Ksyrup]

I've always recognized my limitations when it comes to critiquing movies. I look at movies in the same casual way that many people listen to music. Except I love music, while movies are just "there" for me. Clockwork Orange has absolutely no appeal to me, because I don't/can't see the things that make it such a masterpiece. With movies, I jsut like what I like, and pass on the rest without much thought involved.

In the same way, I know that I might as well be talking to a wall when I try to explain the brilliance of a certain 3-piece band from Katy, TX to someone who thinks O-Town has a long career ahead of them.

[dawgfan]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
Likes:

Nature/Ambient music (or what my brother calls "Rainy Tuesday Afternoon By A Babbling Brook" music)

Have you tried any of the original ambient music from Brian Eno? If not, I highly recommend Music For Airports, Apollo and The Pearl, a collaboration with pianist Harold Budd.

[SplitPersonality1]

rkmsuf - My post wasn't meant to explain the movie, it was just a quick comment about the first thing I thought of when I read your post. Dawgfan does do a good job of explaining why many people enjoy the movie, myself included.

AnyDayNow - I actually agree with you on the bulk of Kubrick's films. Clockwork is the only one that I have ever liked.

Then again, I'm one of seven people on the planet that actually liked the movie "Howard the Duck". So much for my credibilty when it comes to movies.

[rkmsuf]

Kubrick does nothing for me but some folks love his work.

I'll give you 2001, The Shining and Sparticus...maybe Full Metal Jacket.

Eyes Wide Shut and Clockwork were lost on me and I can't say I've really watched much of Dr. Stragelove.

To each his own...

[dawgfan]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
You got it!

Count me as another who thinks all of Kubrick's movies are insanely vulgar, immoral and wholey unwatchable, with no redeeming value whatsover. At least Bogart's movies can have some entertainment value to them.

All of them? Have you seen 2001 or Dr. Strangelove? I don't think there's anything insanely vulgar or immoral about either of those films. You could argue wholey unwatchable.

I can see the vulgarity/immorality criticisms for A Clockwork Orange in particular, with elements of that in The Shining, Full Metal Jacket and Eyes Wide Shut, though I don't agree with them.

[Anrhydeddu]

dawgfan: Thanks, I obviously know of those but have not listened to them since they were before I got into this genre. I have over 250 CDs that fall into this category with only a handful that I truly love. It is so hard to find the exact sound, mood and ensemble that I am after.

[HornedFrog Purple]

Boy it seems we finally found a roadblock. Kubrick/Anti-Kubrick

Kubrick did a complete 180 after 2001 with A Clockwork Orange.

I like Kubrick films a lot. He had a way of filming presentation that I thought was cool. I like Spike Lee and Oliver Stone films in the same way although I really thought "blah" about Any Given Sunday.

Of course there are people who dont like any of the above.

[TroyF]

Horned, Anrh,

This is an interesting topic. It's especially funny when you get two people who generally agree on most topics that take the opposite viewpoints.

An example of this is Horned and I. We agree on most things (outside of Quincy Carter maybe) Yet I look at his list of likes and one thing jumps out at me. . . I hate AI. I think it may be the worst movie I've ever seen. It's the only movie I've ever seriously considered walking out of the theatre on.

I also like Creed (and did long before they became popular), which drives many people up the wall.

To each his/her own

TroyF

[Anrhydeddu]

Ah, Full Metal Jacket. Forgot he did that so I take back saying "all" of Kubrick's movies. Also, my rant list should have said "or" since 2001 certainly falls into the wholey unwatchable category. Sorry.

Then again, I'm one of seven people on the planet that actually liked the movie "Howard the Duck". So much for my credibilty when it comes to movies.

That was funny to read.

[HornedFrog Purple]

Hehe Troy. My only contention with the Q-Kid was give him some stability in his coaching and personnel before they pulled the rug out under him which I still contend they never did give him a reasonable chance to succeed. Give him a legitimate chance to fail.

As for AI... see?

[SplitPersonality1]

ARdiddydoo - Glad you found it funny. I've taken abuse for admitting that for years now.

A good friend and I are pretty big movie buffs and we decided to make a list of our favorite 100 movies, much like the AFI did a number of years ago.

We both had movies that you would expect on such a list: Casablanca, The Godfather, etc., but when he saw Howard the Duck on my list, he just looked at me and shook his head. He still brings it up in conversation every now and then.

I keep telling him that the key word is favorite movies, not the ones with the best plot or best acting. Oh well, it makes people laugh.

[Anrhydeddu]

not the ones with the best plot or best acting

You know, I think you hit on something. In my anti-snobbery viewpoint, I don't believe any movie, book or music can be considered "good" or "great" or "genius" if you don't like it. People talk about Kubrick's genius or Eco's brilliance but I don't believe it (for the most part). If they are so good, how come I (or you or others) don't like it? Genius is only in the eye of the beholder, imo.

[Cowtown]

I was thinking that exact same thing as I painfully sat through a performance by the band Alabama on one of those New Years' Eve shows. I don't think I had ever actually heard them before, and after that moment, I was thankful for that fact.

That is amazing. Those guys have almost FIFTY number one songs. I think George Strait is the only other artist even close to that.

[mckerney]

Originally posted by rkmsuf
I'll give you 2001, The Shining and Sparticus...maybe Full Metal Jacket.

2001 was a terrible and boring movie. I had to watch it for school and the first time I tried I feel asleep half an hour into it. I don't know how I sat through that piece of crap.

[Aylmar]

Actually, FYI, Conway Twitty had 55 #1 records.

http://www.artistdirect.com/showcase//country/ctwitty.html

[vtbub]

Oh to become musically aware during the disco era.

Love the Bee Gees

Think that Ben and Jerry's is highly overrated.

Can't stand country, love jazz

[kcchief19]

I didn't know anyone in this day and age remembered Robert Hall. But if anyone else did, I should have known it would be QS.

You beat me to the punch on The Sixth Sense. I have yet to met anyone who does not think me an idiot for not putting this on the best movies ever made list. I went into the movie knowing that there was a surprise ending (imagine -- a movie with a surprise!) but I had no idea what it was. 5 seconds into the movie, I see Bruce Willis get killed. I instantly assumed that the twist was something other than that since WE JUST SAW HIM KILLED! PEOPLE DO NOT RECOVER QUICKLY FROM GUNSHOTS TO THE HEART! I then spent 2 1/2 hours getting hit over the head with blatantly obvious "clues." This movie had all the mystery, twists and suprises of an Encylopedia Brown book.

People then become indignant with me when I tell them that they must be an idiot not to see that one coming. I have no idea why.

I also hate Keanu Reaves. This guy acts like a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest. I have never seen The Matrix because there is no way that I could possibly sit through another one of his movies without jabbing an ice pick through my ear.

[QuikSand]

Wow. Just to drop a few more thoughts on these lines...

Stanley Kubrick, genius. Gets my vote. I even give him a partial "A" for Eyes Wide Shut, which I thought was very compelling save the bizarre "party" scenes. But I have trouble finding room for wholesale denigration of most of his other movies. Mayeb you find them upsetting, or "immoral" (I'm not sure what that means exactly), or probably disturbing... but to suggest that his are not well-made and well-conceived films strikes me as a tough position to defend.

AI - dreadful movie. I, too, almost felt genuine pain at that movie - I more than disliked it. I hated it intensely, and felt betrayed by it. (Too bad, too... the concept held an awful lot of promise) But I frequently feel this way with Speilberg films, and now it seems that Ron Howard is taking his place beside him... I found A Beautiful Mind to be manipulative and dishonest, despite being pretty well-made.

Someone else mentioned Public Enemy. I know this stuff wasn't exactly meant for me, but that's really well-conceived material. I really, really like Fear of a Black Planet - that one makes my desert island list.

However, this all leads into a rant for me. On A's point from above:

You know, I think you hit on something. In my anti-snobbery viewpoint, I don't believe any movie, book or music can be considered "good" or "great" or "genius" if you don't like it. People talk about Kubrick's genius or Eco's brilliance but I don't believe it (for the most part). If they are so good, how come I (or you or others) don't like it? Genius is only in the eye of the beholder, imo.

I think this is a slippery slope argument. Do we discount true genius because someone fails to understand it? To recognize it? To appreicate it? Is there any accountability for the recipient?

If we bring an imbecile, I.Q of 55, to the Sistine Chapel (my best attempt at a fairly unassailable work of genius) and he says "so what" does that mean that Michelangelo's work is no better or different than what I could flip onto a canvas in a half hour with my temperas? I certainly don't want to go that far.... but that's an inevitable result of that statement, I think.

And I realize this tends toward the classist, the arrogance of the elite. But truly - if someone fails to comprehend the essential elemants of composition, of light, of presentation-- of what value are their views in matters of aesthetics, where it is exactly these elements that constitute the foundation? Why not, then, defer to the judgment of a child, or a moron, or a potted plant?

If Anhrydeddu walks into a museum and sees works of Barnett Newman, and mutters "any nine year old could have painted that" (as I strongly suspect that he would) - does that necessarily invalidate the value of the work? Or is this somehow a function of numbers... if 100 experts agree, then that trumps the millions of "common men" who are too unwashed to be of value? I don't know.

What I do know is to dismiss any objective measure of value based on individual opinions is dangerous business.

Kubrick was a genius. Eco is brilliant. Not everyone must agree for it to be so. Not even everyone who shares the "proper foundation" for making judgment need agree.

[Karim]

Popular movies where I can't understand the appeal:

Chinatown
A Clockwork Orange
Austin Powers
Back to the Future
Pulp Fiction
The Fourth of July
Natural Born Killers
American Beauty
any Star Wars (I like them, just don't understand the massive following)

Games I couldn't get into:

OOTP4
EU2
Jagged Alliance 2


Sports I can't stand:

- any basketball
- any auto racing


Biggest relevant pet peeve:

Anyone who dismisses hockey as not a "major" or "real" sport.

[Craptacular]

Originally posted by Senator
I never liked tomatoes but I love ketchup.

Same here.

I also love cucumbers, but hate pickles.
I like Nacho Cheese Doritos, Cheetos, Combos, etc., but hate cheese.
I love beer bread, beer brats, and beer fries, but hate beer.

[Anrhydeddu]

QS, you remember that we discussed that exact same premise a couple of years ago. I threw that out, not fully embracing anti-snobbery, but to perhaps add more fuel to the fire.

In response, I think it does become more of a philosophical debate - of what constitutes true genius? By what standard do we measure such a thing? Surely there have to be a standard but it cannot be objective because it is the same human that can determine genius that also applies subjectivity of love/hate of such a work. I agree that it is a slippery slope and a position that I cannot articulate very well. But in the end, I tend to lean towards "eye of the beholder" more than an elitist telling me what I should feel about a piece of work.

[HornedFrog Purple]

I think your point would be art is in a grey area, not that snobbery determines genius.

For instance, is Kasparov a chess genius? I think you would have a very difficult time finding anyone who would disagree assuming they even know what chess is.

In Kubrick's case for example it depends. The least an anti-Kubrick person could say is that he was innovative and creative even if they dont like any of his work. Does that mean he is genius? I do believe innovation and creativity is at least a part of what would constitute genius.

[oykib]

Originally posted by rkmsuf
In defense of the Matrix it was never billed an artistic masterpiece. It did revolutionize special effects and should be at least given credit for that.

I liked it...

Actually, half the shots in 'The Matrix' were ripped off from 'Blade'.

[Anrhydeddu]

Only to a certain extent, Frog. I see too many examples of innovation/creativeness just for the sake of being "daring" and that it fails in its function (I'm talking more in product design and architecture). It is my perception that the genius label is applied to too many "artists" whose goal is to produce out of spite, for shock value and personal agendas.

[HornedFrog Purple]

Well I see your point, but I would assume the ultimate goal of any artist for personal agenda is to make money. But lets look at some different ones.

Orson Welles. He produced the (in)famous War of the Worlds broadcast in 1939 which produced actual widespread panic throughout the country only to sign off with Happy Halloween.... Then he turned around and directed and starred in Citizen Kane which at the time was a masterpiece. Why? The painstaking way he filmed that entire movie. He would do retake after retake until he got what he wanted. This was unheard of at the time in Hollywood because he grossly went over budget.

In Kubrick's case he produced 2001 which is still the most "realistic" approach to outer space ever made. The funny thing is he really had no idea what the moon would look like, what space would actually be like. It was all in his mind and from speculation.

Just for fun, Bill Walsh. Was the offense he designed innovative and creative at the time? I would say yes.

Kurt Cobain. I dont consider him a genius and more of the category of shock value and personal agenda. But that is my own personal opinion.

Its all gray.

[mckerney]

Originally posted by kcchief19
You beat me to the punch on The Sixth Sense. I have yet to met anyone who does not think me an idiot for not putting this on the best movies ever made list. I went into the movie knowing that there was a surprise ending (imagine -- a movie with a surprise!) but I had no idea what it was. 5 seconds into the movie, I see Bruce Willis get killed. I instantly assumed that the twist was something other than that since WE JUST SAW HIM KILLED! PEOPLE DO NOT RECOVER QUICKLY FROM GUNSHOTS TO THE HEART! I then spent 2 1/2 hours getting hit over the head with blatantly obvious "clues." This movie had all the mystery, twists and suprises of an Encylopedia Brown book.

People then become indignant with me when I tell them that they must be an idiot not to see that one coming. I have no idea why.

I guessed the ending of Sixth Sense from the previews

[lynchjm24]

Dislikes:
Skorts
Fat chicks in Capri pants.

I dare someone to disagree with that .

[mrushh]

Dislikes:

Fat Chicks....PERIOD (I know that isn't politically correct, but that's the way it goes, sometimes. Get ye to a nunnery, errrr...to a gym.)

[astralhaze]

I support all Stanley Kubrick movies.

[Scholes]

Likes:
Movies:
Rushmore (This and Caddyshack are the two greatest movies ever)
The Royal Tenenbaums
Here's one that I've caught heat for... Zoolander
High Fidelity
The Usual Suspects

Music
Independent Hip-Hop (Illogic, Atmosphere, Sage Francis, etc.)
Radiohead
Incubus
George Michael
Sade
Acappella Music

Books (Authors)
Tom Robbins
Nick Hornby
Ernest Hemingway
F. Scott Fitzgerald

Sports:
Soccer
Hockey, esp. College Hockey
Baseball

Women
Short dark hair
Skin
Lips



Dislikes:
Science Fiction movies or books

NASCAR

Basketball of anykind

Loud people

Women w/ long, blond hair (I don't dislike them, but I guess they're not my type)

Tom Clancy

Country Music

Nelly, Ja Rule, rap you hear on Top 40 radio

Rene Russo

Cars (as well as confederate flags, loud "pipes", huge sound systems, calvin peeing on anyone, etc.)

Cell Phones

That is all.

[astralhaze]

Turn Offs:

Rude people
Smoking
Arrogant people

Turn Ons:

Romantic walks on the beach
Intelligence
Real men

[PineTar]

Off the beaten path items that would make my 'favorites' list:

Movie: Rollerball (1975)

Music: Dread Zeppelin

TV Series: Quincy

Crayola Crayon: copper

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by PineTar
Off the beaten path items that would make my 'favorites' list:

Wow... I'd join you on two out of four. Not too bad, given the level of obscurity.

[Anrhydeddu]

Been given this some more thought and I'm still stuck on something. From your own personal viewpoint, wouldn't you appreciate something you like better than something you don't like - regardless of quality? While any art form has technique that can be noted, shouldn't the emotion or appreciation of the final results be the ultimate judge?

I thought about this in context of my comparison of FOF4 and OOTP4. I like OOTP4 despite its flaw in its execution but I do not like FOF4 despite its relative lack of flaws in its execution. Therefore, I cannot truthfully say that FOF4 is a better product. A product (game, movie, music, book, painting, architecture, etc.) cannot be better if you don't like it when compared to a similar product that you do like because the product you do like obviously did something good or right that makes you like it better. If that makes any sense.