Joe Torre to be fired

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Well, it's all a matter of perspective. If you really want to skew it, you say "The Rangers paid $8M per year to not have to pay ARod $25M per year". It's all about sunk costs and flexibility going forwards. The Rangers have already passed along that cash or maybe they are paying it per year- either way, it's already set in stone and nothing can be done about it. Trading him to the Angels or the Brewers doesn't matter. It's not like they get the money back or something.

SI

Let's not also forget that the Rangers also got Alfonso Soriano in that deal, so it was a) pay $8M per year rather than $25M per year and b) get Alfonso Soriano. Essentially, they shed $17M minus Soriano's salary (I think at that point it was relatively low) as the compensation for the difference between A-Rod and Soriano.

[JS19]

I would like to go on record saying that Torre isn't even all that good of a manager to begin with. People can call me crazy saying that, being that he wins every yr, but a monkey can manage just as good as him with the team the Yankees have every yr. The guys the Yankees have, everyone knows where they are playing and hitting. I've seen him handle his pitching staff very poorly over his tenure, which in my opinion is really his only job with the lineup they have every yr.

Also, with the whole ARod thing, seeing firsthand how badly NYers want him off the Yankees, I would think whoever wants him could probably get him for not all too much. Don't get me wrong, it would have to be something pretty decent, but not what one would have thought it would take to get the Alex Rodriguez back in the day.

[clintl]

Originally Posted by JS19

I would like to go on record saying that Torre isn't even all that good of a manager to begin with. People can call me crazy saying that, being that he wins every yr, but a monkey can manage just as good as him with the team the Yankees have every yr.

The one thing you can't deny that Torre did was stay on Steinbrenner's good side for over a decade. No other Yankee manager under Steinbrenner has come close to doing that.

[Deattribution]

Originally Posted by clintl

The one thing you can't deny that Torre did was stay on Steinbrenner's good side for over a decade. No other Yankee manager under Steinbrenner has come close to doing that.

It probably had something to do with all the championships his team won, and all the yankee fans it won him in the process.

If he is indeed fired, this really isn't a move Steinbrenner could have done say, 3 or 4 years ago without an uproar.

[Anthony]

why would Texas care if one of their division rivals got Arod? not like Arod is gonna hurt anyone in the postseason. let him hit his 40 something homers during the regular season.

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

let him hit his 40 something homers during the regular season.

... in the top of the 9th win his team is already up 9-1.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Let's not also forget that the Rangers also got Alfonso Soriano in that deal, so it was a) pay $8M per year rather than $25M per year and b) get Alfonso Soriano. Essentially, they shed $17M minus Soriano's salary (I think at that point it was relatively low) as the compensation for the difference between A-Rod and Soriano.

His salary was somewhere around 8 million at that point after arb.

[Izulde]

Torre did a decent job of managing in St. Louis, I think.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by JS19

I would like to go on record saying that Torre isn't even all that good of a manager to begin with. People can call me crazy saying that, being that he wins every yr, but a monkey can manage just as good as him with the team the Yankees have every yr. The guys the Yankees have, everyone knows where they are playing and hitting. I've seen him handle his pitching staff very poorly over his tenure, which in my opinion is really his only job with the lineup they have every yr.

From a strategy standpoint, unless a guy is totally incompetant, I don't think the moves a manager makes is much more than a 5 game swing either way at the most. However, what is difficult to measure and what is (in my opinion) the manager's biggest job is managing the attitude and morale of the team. This is an area in which I suspect Torre excelled with the Yankees.

After watching Lou Piniella for a decade, I don't think he was any strategy or personnel whiz - his biggest positive effect on the M's was his burning passion to win and his ability to impose that will on his teams.

Torre has a different style than Sweet Lou, and it worked for him with the Yankees. I'm not sure if Lou's style would mesh well with the current group there, but it would be interesting to watch. Personally, I think Lou might be too combustible to last working under King George - remember, it didn't end well last time, and despite them both speaking fondly of each other since, I don't think it would take long for either one to blow up at the other and the whole thing spiral out of control.

[Anthony]

well, anyone other than Torre is going to result in the way things used to be for the Yankees - a revolving door every 2 or 3 years, knee jerk reactions to bad starts. i don't think you're gonna see another manager hold down the Yankee job for a whole decade anytime soon. that is, unless he wins WS early and often. but that won't happen. dynasties don't happen that frequently.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Izulde

Torre did a decent job of managing in St. Louis, I think.

Hmmm.. if you consider a 351 Wins and 354 Losses (.498 winning %) record to be a good job at managing. He did decent (.529) in his three years managing the Braves, but was horrid (.405) when managing the Mets.

[clintl]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Hmmm.. if you consider a 351 Wins and 354 Losses (.498 winning %) record to be a good job at managing. He did decent (.529) in his three years managing the Braves, but was horrid (.405) when managing the Mets.

Well, yes, the record with the Mets looks horrible. But he didn't have much talent to work with, either.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYM/1981.shtml

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by clintl

The one thing you can't deny that Torre did was stay on Steinbrenner's good side for over a decade. No other Yankee manager under Steinbrenner has come close to doing that.

Not exactly a skill that people file under "keys to being a good manager"

SI

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Hmmm.. if you consider a 351 Wins and 354 Losses (.498 winning %) record to be a good job at managing. He did decent (.529) in his three years managing the Braves, but was horrid (.405) when managing the Mets.

Being a lifelong braves fan, I remember the two most upsetting things in my childhood when it came to the braves was Joe Torre not being manager anymore and Brett Butler being traded away. In the early 80s the Braves wern't a power house, but at least we were competitive under Torre. The day he left started a decade long slide that left the Braves as the laughing stock of the league for many years.

Was Torre the main difference that caused the Braves success? Probably not, but I was really sad to see him go and he was the one Yankee I actually didn't mind rooting for. Now that he won't be with the yankees any longer, I won't feel bad at all rooting for complete and total failure for them.

[clintl]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Not exactly a skill that people file under "keys to being a good manager"

SI

I don't know about that. People skills seems to me to be a very critical talent for a manager to have, and Torre obviously has it.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by clintl

I don't know about that. People skills seems to me to be a very critical talent for a manager to have, and Torre obviously has it.

Exactly. Managing egos is the biggest part of any Manager's job. Torre has that skill.

[Swaggs]

Ask Joe Girardi if it is important to get along with your boss. Not that he likely won't end up in a better situation, but still...

[Ksyrup]

I think Pinella is exactly what the Yankees need - someone who will get in their faces and light a fire when it's appropriate. Torre is a good people person and a calming influence, but he failed with ARod - he took his cues from Giambi on how to handle him, embarrassed him with the lineup shenanigans after ARod hit .350+ in September, and has not been able to get this team motivated to win series they should have won the past 3 years. Not to mention his in-season abuse of the set-up guys that goes back years and his refusal to cajole Derek Jeter into setting an example and making ARod feel comfortable in NY and a part of the team. Derek wants to win at all costs, unless those costs involve embracing ARod...

And even if none of this is his fault, I'm a firm believer that at some point, no matter how great a manager/coach is, sometimes the message, the behind the scenes personnel stuff, etc., just stops working. It's time for the Yankees to admit that Torre no longer works, as great as he may or may not be.

Or wait, for the sake of my sanity, I hope they don't realize any of this and keep the team together, maybe throw a few more million dollar away on some high-priced, aging stars to replace the guys they are going to get rid of.

[oykib]

I never thought I ould say this. But it may be time for Torre to go. Sweet Lou is there for the picking. And George loves Lou.

Also, you have to follow the low pressure guy with the high-strung guy. Lou, likely, would only manage a few years anyway. It's about a few years before his schtick would wear on the players anyway.

And don't trade A-Rod. Whatever you got for him would still turn out to be one of the worst trades in history.

[Swaggs]

I agree that Lou's shelf life with the Yankees will not be very long.

He and the Yankees should just agree on a three-year deal and agree to part ways after that.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by oykib

And don't trade A-Rod. Whatever you got for him would still turn out to be one of the worst trades in history.

I completely disagree. The only way the trade would be considered a failure is if the Yankees don't make the playoffs without him. He's great during the regular season, but this team coasts into the post-season every year. The only reason he is on this team is for the post-season. And he can't perform as a Yankee in the post-season. They don't need him to get there, and he's a huge (and getting bigger) distraction at this point.

Even if he goes elsewhere and puts up the greatest post-season numbers of all-time, it still won't matter. He couldn't and wouldn't be able to do it under the enormous pressure of being a Yankee. Buster Olney said they could do a deal for Ervin Santana, Chone Figgins, and a B+ prospect from the Angels. I'd try to get a set-up guy too, but that deal sounds pretty good to me.

[Neuqua]

Paging Jim Hendry, please call Brian Cashman.

[oykib]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I completely disagree. The only way the trade would be considered a failure is if the Yankees don't make the playoffs without him. He's great during the regular season, but this team coasts into the post-season every year. The only reason he is on this team is for the post-season. And he can't perform as a Yankee in the post-season. They don't need him to get there, and he's a huge (and getting bigger) distraction at this point.

Even if he goes elsewhere and puts up the greatest post-season numbers of all-time, it still won't matter. He couldn't and wouldn't be able to do it under the enormous pressure of being a Yankee. Buster Olney said they could do a deal for Ervin Santana, Chone Figgins, and a B+ prospect from the Angels. I'd try to get a set-up guy too, but that deal sounds pretty good to me.

Crazy talk.

A-Rod's the same age as Frank Robinson was when he was traded for Milt Pappas.

[TazFTW]

NY Post is reporting that Torre will stay.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/10102006...eorge_king.htm

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by oykib

Crazy talk.

A-Rod's the same age as Frank Robinson was when he was traded for Milt Pappas.

So? No one's disputing how great a player he is. But he is not what this team needs. In fact, he's just the opposite. He's Javier Vazquez, Kenny Rogers, Jeff Weaver, etc., rolled into one. This isn't about trading him because he isn't putting up the numbers they thought he would. This is about the fact that he can't handle the NY pressure and has clearly not made friends in the clubhouse. You can blame the media or whatever, but the fact is, his story predominates over all. His failures, and now the Yankee clubhouse/management's inability to deal with him, are THE story. I don't care how great a team is, they do not want that all next year. In fact, the players will grow to resent ARod even more - if it's possible - for bringing this on them. Even Giambi and Sheffield's steroid issues didn't cause this much press and internal strife.

[bulletsponge]

NY fans and media need a scapegoat for thier choking the last several years. they dont want to give any of the blame to thier "golden boy" and team captain, so they target his rival and the easy scapegoat. NY was on a downward trend before A-rod got thier and they havnt changed since. its not rodriguezes fault Jeter and the media have been major a**holes to him since he got there

wherever Alex goes i hope they win next year, knocking out the Yankees (again)

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by bulletsponge

NY fans and media need a scapegoat for thier choking the last several years. they dont want to give any of the blame to thier "golden boy" and team captain, so they target his rival and the easy scapegoat. NY was on a downward trend before A-rod got thier and they havnt changed since. its not rodriguezes fault Jeter and the media have been major a**holes to him since he got there

wherever Alex goes i hope they win next year, knocking out the Yankees (again)

Agreed. Their problem in the past few postseasons has been their starting pitching, not ARod.

[stevew]

I would imagine they will sign the top 2 starters available. Most likely Zito. They should be able to afford them by simply declining Sheffield and letting Mussina walk. I would probably just let Melky Cabrera play LF and move Matsui or Abreu to first.

[Ksyrup]

From what I've read, neither Zito nor Schmidt are likely to leave the west coast. And they are the top 2 starters available. Which makes an ARod trade for Ervin Santana even more attractive.

[JS19]

Well, looks like Torre is staying now.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2618683

[k0ruptr]

anyone else think when he addresses the media today, he will resign? I know all the reports say he's staying, but if I was him I sure as hell wouldn't wanna work for the devil anymore, I mean Steinbrenner

[Eaglesfan27]

Torre conference on ESPN News now and he is staying.

[Ksyrup]

Once they announced the press conference, he had to be staying. Although, I would have loved to see one of those "made for TV" moments where he started with the planned speech, then he stopped, mumbled, "I can't do this," and quit on the spot.

[k0ruptr]

damn, I really wanted his ass to resign and say something like. "well I've had some great years here, AHH hell with it, this job sucks" then proceed to throw his yankee hit and spit on it, and flip off the cameras

[jbmagic]

Time to change the title in this thread.

[Shkspr]

Originally Posted by jbmagic

Time to change the title in this thread.

Naah, we'll just bump it next year after the Yankees get eliminated again.

[k0ruptr]

whats wrong?? you dfon't ever make prediction turn out wrong?

[McSweeny]

Originally Posted by k0ruptr

whats wrong?? you dfon't ever make prediction turn out wrong?

just ask the oakland raiders

[stevew]

Originally Posted by bosshogg23

ESPN Trade Article

The trade calls for Texas to pay $43 million of Rodriguez's salary over the remaining seven years: $3 million in 2004, $6 million each in 2005, 2006 and 2010, $7 million apiece in 2007 and 2009 and $8 million in 2008. In addition, the Rangers will pay the $24 million remaining in deferred money from the original contract, with the interest rate lowered from 3 percent to 1.75 percent.

All the deferred money owed by Texas -- $36 million including salaries from 2001 to 2003 -- will be lumped with the original $10 million signing bonus, of which $4 million is still owed. The payout schedule will be pushed back to 2016-2025 from 2011-20.



It sounds like the money is for his contract specifically.

Interesting factoid in that article.

The Rangers will pick from a pool of five prospects, four of whom have been determined, according to a Baseball America report that references "baseball sources." The magazine says the four known candidates are: pitcher Ramon Ramirez, outfielder Rudy Guillen, shortstop Joaquin Arias and second baseman Robinson Cano.

Somoene in Texas fucked up there by taking Arias.

[Ksyrup]

But they didn't need a 2B. They got Soriano!!

[Ksyrup]

From Jon Heyman's (SI) article a couple of days ago on the ARod/Torre mess:

"Someone close to A-Rod said he thought he could live with Joe Torre "for a year," which happens to be exactly what remains on Torre's contract. But it's apparent now that he'd prefer not to. And Torre has made it clear that, at the very least, Rodriguez is a puzzle he can't figure out. (Torre also has told at least one executive with another club I know that A-Rod is the problem and he wants A-Rod gone.)"


Now, I haven't heard that type of Torre comment from any other baseball writer, so who knows if it's true, but if it is, wow. I guess batting him 8th was Torre's way of saying "I give up," and the Yankees have denied that ARod was a subject of conversation regarding whether to bring Torre back, but you have to imagine that bringing Torre back just about seals ARod's fate.