05-22-2006, 11:27 AM | #51 | ||
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In my opinion, the whole steroids controversy is overblown in the first place. Baseball simply did not have a rule against taking steroids before 2003, so of course some players were going to take them. It's not cheating if there's no rule. And the fact that there were laws against taking them without a prescription doesn't wash, either - they were taking amphetamines, too, and at least according to accounts I've read, with baseball's blessing. Trainers would actually put out bowls of amphetamines before a game. So that was the game's culture.
Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro, Canseco, etc. are all products of their era. Now, if you want to compare them to players of other eras, you can apply some kind of scaling factor to their accomplishments. That's fair. In Bonds' case, he had 411 career HRs at the end of 1998, and the allegations are pretty consistent that it was after that season that he probably started using steroids. My guess is that (assuming the allegations are true, and I think they probably are), that he would have ended up with a HR total pretty close to Frank Robinson's, with a shot at 600. That's a first ballot Hall of Famer, and not too far off from the projections in the Pat Hruby article I linked earlier in the thread. I am not going to condemn the players who took steroids prior to the 2003 season. |
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05-22-2006, 11:39 AM | #52 | |
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05-22-2006, 11:41 AM | #53 |
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If you wish to delete Bonds, I wish to delete Ruth and all the pre-segregation players, and anything from the 60's onwards - greenies have been popped throughout the history. My base belief is that it doesn't change much - it won't make you a ballplayer. For example, this year, there is a higher HR pace than there was in the previous 3 seasons (this was true as of April, I'll have to check the numbers lately).
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05-22-2006, 11:43 AM | #54 |
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Is it OK not to like Bonds and boo him because you think he is a shithead?
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05-22-2006, 11:44 AM | #55 |
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I wouldn't doubt that steroids might have had some effect on the HR/G rate, but I think it has been way overstated in the popular press. If you look at the rates year by year, in the past 20 years the biggest one year increases actually occured in 1993 (34% increase over the year before) in the NL, and 1994 in the AL (22% increase over the year before). I would guess that expansion, the beginning of play in Denver, and a series of new band-box stadiums that were built in this period are strongly correlated with the rate increase. The shrinking strike zone and a new emphasis on strength and conditioning (yes, including steroid use) in the 90s would also factor in.
Again, I'm not discouting the use of steroids as a factor in the general increase in the HR rate from 1986 to 2005, but I think it is a relatively minor one. Last edited by Klinglerware : 05-22-2006 at 11:49 AM. |
05-22-2006, 11:46 AM | #56 | |
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Absolutely. I understand why people hate Bonds for his attitutude. I hated Steve Garvey not just for being a Dodger, but for being a complete phony - Don Sutton became my all-time favorite Dodger the day he beat Garvey up. |
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05-22-2006, 11:50 AM | #57 | |
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Maybe he'd have a better attitude if he wasn't on steriods.
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05-22-2006, 02:49 PM | #58 | |
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Jose wasn't a good hitter to begin with, Barry was pre-roids. so I don't even know where that reference comes from other than the fact he was an admitted roid user too. Nor did Ron Grant, Bobby Estalella or Jose Conseco hit 70+ HRs cause of roids (or possibly no roids in the formers) So just because he wasn't the largest guy out there doesn't mean he isn't the guy who can slug one every chance cause of his roided out ass and pitchers know that. As far as that bs it wasn't illegal in baseball so Barry is okay, murder isn't illegal in baseball per their rules, nor is the guy having a bunch of child porn pinned up in his locker - does that make it okay? No. Baseball rules don't supercede federal and state laws - that's why baseball doesn't have a rule for everything that is illegal in the world. He's a hack, a cheat, just like a bunch of other guys - he had a great career and was a sure fire hall of famer but that wasn't good enough so every criticism he gets - and every discredit he gets was brought on by his steriod using ways that he opted to do himself. Everyone fan of his can run around with his dick in their mouth, it doesn't change the fact that everyone knows what he has done is tainted and always will be, not because of jealousy, not because of race, but because he made the choice to use steriods. |
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05-22-2006, 04:03 PM | #59 | |
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We all know very, very well that the federal government leaves it to the individual sports organizations to police steroid use and the use of other performance enhancing drugs. When was the last time criminal charges were filed against someone in the sports world failing a test for steroids? As far as I can remember, it's never happened. If it doesn't involve trafficking, the feds ignore it. And baseball had no penalties against it, so it would be unfair (and likely illegal under labor law) to go back and assess penalties retroactively. |
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05-22-2006, 04:08 PM | #60 | |
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Didn't someone recently point out that Baseball does indeed have a blanket clause that covers all federally illegal substances, and that it was in effect when Bonds allegedly used the cream and the clear?
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05-22-2006, 04:15 PM | #61 |
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If MLB did, and it had any teeth (penalties) to it, why would they have needed to negotiate a separate deal with respect to steroids?
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05-22-2006, 04:41 PM | #62 | |
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I have seen this point made and I think the next logical step is that steroid users deserve the same amount of scorn as those who popped greenies. Baseball players have been using chemical means to attempt to improve their play since speed became commonplace in clubhouses in the sixties. The available substances are better now but the players accused of steroids are vilified yet greenie poppers get a free pass. I don't understand treating steroid users differently just because they are using more effective stuff than MLB players have been using for the last 40 plus years. I see no difference in the line crossed.
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05-22-2006, 05:52 PM | #63 | |
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100% agree. I think people poo-poo greenies because their heroes of their childhood are attached to the stuff: Mantle, Aaron, Mays, etc. It's a performance enhancer and was illegal at the time. These stars aren't as likeable... though I wonder what would happen if it came out that Cal Ripkin, Jr. (or someone similar in popularity) used steroids?
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05-22-2006, 08:00 PM | #64 | |
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Well, I think in 1998, McGwire and Sosa were in Ripken's class with regard to popularity, so I think we've seen what would happen. |
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05-22-2006, 08:20 PM | #65 |
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05-22-2006, 08:43 PM | #66 | |
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05-22-2006, 08:51 PM | #67 | |
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A bigger point (which I didn't see addressed in the article or FAQ) is how much pitchers that were juicing may have held down his home run numbers - we know that pitchers juice too (many insiders have suggested at a rate higher than position players) and one would assume that juicing gives pitchers some advantage - perhaps increased arm speed which would lead to greater velocity and ball rotation (leading to more break on breaking pitches). Almost certainly it would allow pitchers quicker recovery time. So maybe the 616 number is accurate in terms of estimating what Bonds would have had he not cheated, but how many more would he have than that if opposing pitchers weren't cheating as well? |
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05-22-2006, 09:56 PM | #68 | |
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I actually agree. Especially playing SS all those games, I think he needed and used some of that 'pick me up'.
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05-22-2006, 10:02 PM | #69 |
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I don't care whether he cheated or not, I just don't think 714 means what it used to mean. It's a different game.
755 means a lot. But even if he gets there some day (and I think he's going to make Willie Mays and Pete Rose look like Barry Sanders in comparison while he goes after this record), it won't be the same as when Aaron broke the mark. |
05-22-2006, 10:06 PM | #70 | |
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That may be true, but Ruth's era was the greatest offensive era of all time (even edging past the current one, IIRC). I think you have a point with Aaron, since the era he played in was, undoubtably less HR friendly than the 90s-00s or the 20s-30s.
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05-22-2006, 10:17 PM | #71 | |
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I don't follow what you mean with the whole "I just don't think 714 means what it used to mean". Do you mean that in regards to the steroid allegations, or in some other respect? Obviously we weren't around when the Babe did it, but to me it seems like an amazing accomplishment. Thats a hell of a lot of HRs which not too many other people in baseball will accomplish for a long, long time, IMO. |
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05-22-2006, 10:21 PM | #72 |
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I think he meant in terms of history, this being a hitter's era. But the league OPS in the Babe's time was higher than it was/is in Bonds' time. Of course park factors do have to be considered into it.
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05-22-2006, 10:32 PM | #73 | |
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Given that Pac Bell was one of the worst hitters for LH hitters from 2001 to 2003 compared to the Porch at Yankee stadium and the ol Polo Ground - well, don't get me started on that (And yes, I recognize that Yankee stadium later played as a pitcher's park). |
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05-22-2006, 10:37 PM | #74 | |
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To be more precise, I don't think being 2nd or 3rd on the list changes what Ruth meant to the game. He's still the guy who changed the game almost single-handedly. He's still larger than life, still the person who brought countless fans to the game. Aaron breaking the record meant a lot because it brought a lot of closure to the process Jackie Robinson began. The most celebrated career record in the entire sport was beaten by a black man, and, as ISid pointed out, much of it during a period when home runs were not hit as often. Bonds may or may not break the record. I don't care. And, given baseball's decision to use tiny ballparks and a lower pitching mound and expansion beyond what the depth in pitching talent supports and perhaps juicy baseballs, the record has lost its magic. Babe Ruth is the old home run king. Hank Aaron is the current home run king. We don't need any more. Barring serious injury, Alex Rodriguez should settle in with 800-900 home runs. Albert Pujols may take that away five years later. Maybe Adam Dunn as well? Who knows? Who cares? The game has changed and the aura of what Ruth and Aaron each accomplished, in different ways, will never be challenged. I suppose there will be some renewed excitement when baseball decides softball scores are more appropriate, and someone approaches 1,000 home runs in the year 2025. But by then baseball will be trailing Arena Football 3 in popularity and it will have to fight women's tennis for the spotlight on summer weekends. I don't see Bonds as particularly tainted. Yes, he almost certainly took boatloads of steroids. Who cares? He still hit the home runs and for a long, long time, baseball tacitly approved this type of substance abuse. It's baseball's fault this record-chase is meaningless, not Bonds' fault. They've changed the game, not Bonds. Personally, I don't care if they allow bionic arms and legs. If Tommyjohnsurgery is legal, as I've said in the past, steroid abuse is nothing in comparison. |
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05-22-2006, 10:42 PM | #75 | |
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Ok, I would say that satisfies my curiosity. |
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05-22-2006, 10:58 PM | #76 | |
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I think this is patently false. The pitching talent in MLB per potential pitching population is much less than it was in prior eras. Not simply in considering the rapid expansion of the US population (and then filtering out other sports popularity, of course), but also adding pitchers from Latin America and Asia. The rest (small ballparks, lower pitching mound) I have no problem with, though I want to point out that similar 'problems' could be raised about the 20s and 30s. However, I do understand Jim's point (probably the highest level of home runs per plate appearance has occured in this era compared to others).
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05-22-2006, 11:15 PM | #77 | |
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All meaningless. What matters is the number of pitchers who are capable of pitching to the top hitters. When once you needed seven or eight pitchers, you now need 15 (more trips to the disabled list, larger rotations, specialization in the bullpen). And it just doesn't seem that there are 450 capable pitchers. Just look at the crapfest even the very rich teams like the Yankees and the Red Sox have at the ends of their rotations and bullpen. Lenny DiNardo? Uh-uh. What you'd need to do is find some sort of measurement of average standard deviation of each individual pitcher, normalized to some standard (like 162 innings). There's an ideal average standard deviation. I'd be willing to bet we're far over that right now. |
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05-22-2006, 11:40 PM | #78 | |
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And you have a far, far larger pool of pitchers. You may have needed 7-8 pitchers back in the 40s, but of a potential pitching population which was far smaller than it is today. You say look at Lenny DiNardo, but how about looking at Spec Shea of the 1949 (World Series winning) NY Yankees? With his 76 ERA+ that season. How about Al Gettel on the 1951 NL Champs San Fran Giants? The 52 Dodgers (who won the NL West) had a trio of 70 ERA+ pitchers in the bullpen (Clyde King, Clem Labine, and Ray Moore) in addition to their 71 ERA+ starter, Chris Van Cyuk. (All of these teams were pulled randomly from the AL/NL winners of the late 40s, early 50s) Don't act like bad pitchers at the end of a bullpen is something that only recently came about. If we are talking bets on std devs, I'll bet that we are right around the average historically.
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05-23-2006, 10:11 AM | #79 | ||||
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But that's irrelevant. All that matters is the number of pitchers who are capable of pitching to Major League hitters. The shape of the curve as it approaches the top is what we're looking at, not the overall curve. Quote:
Just looking at Shea, he had a career ERA of +0.03 over the league average throughout an eight-year, 943-inning career. He missed 1950, most likely with an injury he tried to pitch through in 1949, which was one of only two seasons where he was bad. If you look at him when he was doing well, which was most of his career, you'll see he was a starter. In 1949, he pitched mostly out of the bullpen (3 starts, 17 relief appearances). Back then, relief work is what you gave a starter who wasn't cutting it. The fact that he only pitched 52 innings that season indicates the Yankees weren't counting on him. Gettel's another guy who had success as a starter early in his career, then started to fall apart. He had about 400 innings of above-average low-rotation experience before the decline. He only pitched 57 innings for the Giants in 1951, with a WHIP of 1.34, which isn't that bad for bottom-of-the-heap. DiNardo already has 25 innings this year with a 2.05 WHIP. Quote:
I'm not. I'm just saying that 50 innings from a pitcher on a team with seven active pitchers is not the same as 50 innings today from a pitcher on a team with 12 active pitchers. Not even the same ballpark. Van Cyuk is your best example, and he only pitched in 23 games that year, after which he never pitched again in the Majors. Quote:
My sense, from looking at the numbers rather quickly, is that I'd win this one pretty easily. |
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05-23-2006, 10:47 AM | #80 | |||||
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And the number of pitchers capable of pitching to MLB hitters has drastically increased in numbers, unless you think that other countries don't have pitchers who are capable to pitching to MLB hitters. I also wonder why increased trips to the disabled list is something that only affects pitchers and not hitters. Specialization in the bullpen is something that improves pitcher performance, not drags it down as well. Quote:
And yet both of them had crappy ERA+ in those World Series years. Their previous history as starters is irrelevant. What matters is what they did in those years and they weren't that good at all. You think that starters don't get sent to the pen if they are ineffective these days? You think that MLB teams count on players that come up to spell a player for a few starts and go back down? Compare that to, say, the 2005 Chicago White Sox. Quote:
DiNardo's career ERA+ before this year was 138. Albeit in a very few number of innings (though his WHIP was 1.5). Last year in Pawtucket he pitched pretty well, and did nicely when called up by the Red Sox last year. Not like he was chopped liver and they knew it and just threw him to the wolves because there was no one better. Quote:
Not a chance. I offer this study: http://www.retrosheet.org/Research/SmithD/Expansion.pdf which was looking at claims that expansion dilutes pitching because there are more players who would be in AAA. In his conclusions: Quote:
That paper deals with the expansion dilution of pitching question. I'll try to find studies on larger bullpens' effects.
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05-23-2006, 11:03 AM | #81 | |
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This article talks about talent distribution among hitters and pitchers, but the arguments work in this context for pitching talent, IMO.
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http://www.unitedstatesofbaseball.co...p?ENTRY_ID=110
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05-23-2006, 11:47 AM | #82 |
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But all that has nothing to do with the point I'm trying to make. There are too many pitchers being counted on these days who are less capable of pitching to Major League hitting.
It has nothing to do with over-dilution of overall talent, and I agree with Handrinos. Here's what I did. I took the National League in 1952, since that's where you found your best example. And I took the National League in 2005. I took the top eight pitchers, by IP, on each 1952 team. That amounted to 91.9% of the innings pitched in the league that year. I took the top twelve pitchers, by IP, on each 2005 team. That amounted to 88.5% of the innings pitched in the league last tear. So, you're getting a break in comparison, because I probably should have taken the top 13 on each team in 2005. But I don't want to spent the time to add them. Then I broke this set down by innings pitched in each ERA+ range. The purpose being to find how much pitchers who are being counted on are making us suffer. Range 59 or less ERA+ 1952 0.5% of all IP 2005 0.6% of all IP 60-69 ERA+ 1952 0.6% 2005 7.1% 70-79 ERA+ 1952 6.7% 2005 13.3% 80-89 ERA+ 1952 12.4% 2005 13.3% 90-99 ERA+ 1952 21.3% 2005 15.9% If you graph this, you'll see that the shape of the curve is vastly different today. I win the bet easily. IMO, a league should try to limit the number of counted-on innings pitched by pitchers below 80 ERA+. In 1952, that number was 792 out of 11025 total innings (7%). In 2005, that number was 4300 out of 23052 total innings (18%). Increased specialization and whatever else is going on is leading to too many pitchers throwing important innings who have no business pitching in the Majors. Now, I wonder how much that extra 10% of innings against 80+ pitchers has contributed to Bonds' home run totals? Probably not that huge a number, as those innings would be replaced by 90+ pitchers. Last edited by Solecismic : 05-23-2006 at 11:50 AM. |
05-23-2006, 12:01 PM | #83 |
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ohh god, this tread has turned into a baseball nerd numbers game!
im not calling you nerds, just a figure of speech Last edited by bulletsponge : 05-23-2006 at 12:02 PM. |
05-23-2006, 12:38 PM | #84 | |
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05-23-2006, 01:01 PM | #85 | |||
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If you add up the percentages, you'll see that right around 50% of pitchers are below 100 ERA+ (an average pitcher historically) in 2005. While in 1952, it's around 40%. What that indicates to me is that 1952 was a more pitcher dominated year, as ~60% of pitchers were better than the average historical pitcher. As I said, "I'll bet that we are right around the average historically". And apparently that is the case, as around half (I think it is 50.2%) of the pitchers in 2005 are under the average. The '52 values is more 'normalized' than the '05 values, but is the historic value more normalized or less? And it seems the mean of '52 is not the mean throughout history, but the '05 mean is right on the historical mean. Quote:
As said by Handrinos: Quote:
Which has been exactly my point. Expand the pool of competitors in pitching by a good deal, due to great increase in US population, MLB opening to Latin America, MLB opening to Asian players, and you'll get even greater talent level than before. Thereby increasing the number of pitchers used from 7 to 12 on a regular roster throughout the season should not result in a dilution of pitching, even with mass substitution and injuries.
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05-23-2006, 04:38 PM | #86 | |
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That's definitely the result of managers using the bullpens differently now (the increased specialization). I agree that has increased the need for more pitchers per team (now 11 or 12 is pretty common, while I remember in the '70s, with four man rotations and more completely games, most teams would have a 9 or 10 man staff). However, the other side of that coin is that you more frequently had tired pitchers pitching in the late innings who were facing the lineup for the fourth time in the game, so if you went a little deeper into the numbers, I think you might see less of a difference than you think. Managers wouldn't have adopted the specialized bullpen roles if they didn't think it improved the chances of winning. |
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05-23-2006, 04:46 PM | #87 | |||
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No, that's meaningless as a statistic. ERA+ is defined as "the ratio of the league's ERA (adjusted to the pitcher's ballpark) to that of the pitcher." The minor leagues are used to restock teams with replacement-level pitching. So about 45% of contributing pitchers (as defined above) being below 100 seems about right. That total was 46% in 1952, 44% in 2005. That hasn't changed. What has changed is the standard deviation of pitching effectiveness. I think you have to admit I've demonstrated that fairly thoroughly at this point. Quote:
Just for kicks, I took the most offense-dominated year in NL history, 1930. I went to eight pitchers per team, who contributed 91.7% of the innings pitched (again, well above the 2005 totals). My numbers: 8.7% of the innings were thrown by players in the 70-79 ERA+ range (none lower) 6.7% of the innings were thrown by players in the 80-89 range. 22.7% of the innings were thrown by players in the 90-99 range. So I essentially get the same result for the most hitting-dominated single season in history as I did for an average post-war season (until the first of the unwarranted expansions in the '90s). Quote:
Yet it did. And that's not because of a lack of talent. It's because of the talent curve among very elite pitchers. I'm not saying that an average pitcher today couldn't succeed in 1930. I'm saying that the balance of the game has been affected because more at bats are coming against pitchers who really can't compete in today's league at an effective level. Some people may be happy with that balance. I'm not. I'm sick and tired of watching the Lenny Dinardos and the Tanyon Sturtzes out there throwing slop, even on elite teams. Forget about the teams that don't have the cash to put out an elite team. Baseball either needs to contract or go with the English system and have a premiership of sorts. |
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05-23-2006, 05:04 PM | #88 | |
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There are lots of options other than those two. Going back to the 4-man rotation and 5-6 man bullpens, for example, like teams used in the '70s. Or raising the mound again. Or, as has usually been done in the past, let the game evolve with the changing demographics and management styles. The era of offense isn't going to last forever, just as it didn't in the '20s and '30s. |
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05-23-2006, 05:29 PM | #89 |
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Ok, I guess there are more innings pitched by bad pitchers today. But would that have an effect on Bonds' career Adjusted OPS+? Right now he is 3rd on the all time list, so I don't see how it would have such a great effect on his numbers if he played in Ruth's day, for instance.
And, I agree with clint. No need for expansion as you've already agreed that there is no overall talent dilution. Let it work itself out.
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05-23-2006, 05:39 PM | #90 |
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By the way, why doesn't this kind of conversation happen with regard to other sports? I remember back in the '70s and '80s, it was pretty rare for the losing team to score less than 100 points. Now, the winning team scores less 100 points in quite a few (possibly the majority) of games, and no one seems to think that's an issue. So why is the fact that we're in an offensive era in baseball that's not all that different from the '20s and '30s such a big deal?
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