The new Kindle Touch: Whoa!

[kcchief19]

It's also to Amazon's benefit, because this tightly managed UI really constrains you to only supping content directly from Amazon's pipelines, be it for music, video, apps or even web browsing (which happens partly on Amazon's cloud computers thanks to the Opera-like Silk browser, mainly because it has to work like this on the limited hardware inside the Fire).

That would be a deal breaker for me. I don't want to be limited to Amazon only.

It looks nice, but I don't really get the buzz on this. It looks like a Kindle upgrade, and a Kindle is a Kindle ... It's not an iPad or a tablet. It sounds like a decent value, but it is what it is.

[RainMaker]

The buzz is that it's a portable media device and that's it. It's for people who want to watch TV/movies, listen to music, and read books.

I know people want to compare it to iPad, but they aren't really trying to be that. They are saying "if you just want to watch, listen, and read stuff on a tablet, save yourself $300 and get this". Everyone else is trying to compete directly with the iPad and I think Amazon is smart to just say "we'll take the people who don't care about the camera, games, and apps and want to save money.".

It's basically what Apple did to laptops.

[stkelly52]

While they look cool and all, Amazon still refuses to support Epub. That is like buying a TV that can't receive any network stations. I'll pass.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Super Ugly

Not looking to single you out, but that's not necessarily the case - not for the entire industry, anyway. E-books eliminate printing and distribution costs, yes, but the production costs (copy-editing, typesetting etc.) are still there. That's the most expensive part of the entire process, print or digital. In my part of the industry (I'm an editor for a large academic publisher) the revenue generated by an average print title is pretty crappy ... If I cut the prices of books to reflect what the public feels e-books are 'worth', I'd be out of a job pretty quickly and my authors would receive even less in the way of royalties.

That's academic publishing, but it's a similar story for the big-time houses too.

A couple of points:

• How does this stack up for your typical bestseller? The more physical copies you print, the smaller percentage copy-editing takes, right? And academic is typically going to be a much larger book to begin with, so the copy-editing / typesetting is going to be higher than the typical paperback? Genuinely asking, I'm not sure how this breaks down.
• How expensive is typesetting for an eBook? I get the copy-edit costs, but in this electronic age for an eBook how is this not just changing the page setup in the word processor? Another genuine question, what is really involved here?
• Thena gain, I've seen some pretty lousy typesetting on eBooks, so not even that step appears to be taken quite often. I get the occasional spelling / character errors (copy protection for electronic print media), but when the entire book's layout is messed up, it's clear not much thought went into this.
• This does not explain how the Kindle edition is sometimes MORE expensive when you don't have a physical book to produce.

Basically all you have with an eBook are the upfront costs. There is copy-editing and typesetting, but your only per-book expense is Amazon's cut to cover bandwidth, assuming you go through Amazon in the first place (Baen doesn't very often, for example). Unless I'm missing something else?

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by stkelly52

While they look cool and all, Amazon still refuses to support Epub. That is like buying a TV that can't receive any network stations. I'll pass.

http://techlogg.com/2010/12/how-to-r...-a-kindle/1899

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

You mean one has to choose whether they are able to read/access or not, depending on location and coverage and other technological glitches? It sounds disadvantageous to having to plan ahead in order to read/listen/access and to hope that you are still able to do so once there. Listening to my complete music/audiobook collection depends only upon me remember to charge the batteries.

And that's fine, you can pay $800 for a 64 Gig Ipad if you want.

This is not geared towards you.

This is geared towards those that want a tablet for some basic features, but don't want to pay full price tag for it.

I think this thing is going to be very successful for that reason.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The buzz is that it's a portable media device and that's it. It's for people who want to watch TV/movies, listen to music, and read books.

I know people want to compare it to iPad, but they aren't really trying to be that. They are saying "if you just want to watch, listen, and read stuff on a tablet, save yourself $300 and get this". Everyone else is trying to compete directly with the iPad and I think Amazon is smart to just say "we'll take the people who don't care about the camera, games, and apps and want to save money.".

It's basically what Apple did to laptops.

yes, exactly. You put it way better than I did.

[Super Ugly]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

A couple of points:

• How does this stack up for your typical bestseller? The more physical copies you print, the smaller percentage copy-editing takes, right? And academic is typically going to be a much larger book to begin with, so the copy-editing / typesetting is going to be higher than the typical paperback? Genuinely asking, I'm not sure how this breaks down.
• How expensive is typesetting for an eBook? I get the copy-edit costs, but in this electronic age for an eBook how is this not just changing the page setup in the word processor? Another genuine question, what is really involved here?
• Thena gain, I've seen some pretty lousy typesetting on eBooks, so not even that step appears to be taken quite often. I get the occasional spelling / character errors (copy protection for electronic print media), but when the entire book's layout is messed up, it's clear not much thought went into this.
• This does not explain how the Kindle edition is sometimes MORE expensive when you don't have a physical book to produce.

Basically all you have with an eBook are the upfront costs. There is copy-editing and typesetting, but your only per-book expense is Amazon's cut to cover bandwidth, assuming you go through Amazon in the first place (Baen doesn't very often, for example). Unless I'm missing something else?

My apologies, I should've been a little less vague in my last post. I preface the following by noting that publishing's a very compartmentalised industry - a book production manager would write this with more authority. But anyway, I'll do my best and answer each point in turn ...

• In my world, and at this point in time, a bestseller is a book that shifts maybe 2-3k units on an initial print run. A typical scholarly monograph might sell in the low hundreds if you're lucky. I think that what you're suggesting is that production costs are offset in the long run. I wish that were the case in academic - they have a huge impact on the profit margins. Is it different in trade? Yeah, I guess so - but only for the major bestsellers, I suspect.
  
  Are the production costs higher in academic than for trade? Depends on the book. A monograph won't cost as much to typeset as an illustrated cookbook, but a fully-illustrated biology textbook is mind-bogglingly expensive to produce when compared with your average blockbuster novel. I'm stating the obvious there, and I do apologise - I feel like I haven't really answered your question ...?
  
• I'm afraid I can't give you a decent answer to what's involved in typesetting, either. Even to people like me, it's a strange and mysterious process during which manuscripts are sent far away (usually to places like India, where most of the typesetters seem to be based these days) and then come back all beautifully laid out. It's way more technical than changing settings in a word processor, and it explains why you've seen so many examples of shitty typesetting. People want to avoid the cost and that's fine, but it results in an inferior product. I've only ever come across one 'proper' book that was typeset using Word, and that was a complete bitch to produce.
  
• As for your last point about the Kindle edition being more expensive than the print ... yeah, that stinks. There are numerous reasons for publishers doing that, but I don't necessarily agree with them.

One last thing - the cut that we pay Amazon isn't trivial. We're talking somewhere in the region of 30-40% (and I would guess it's even higher for big trade sellers).

I'm not going to say that publishers' hands are tied. Times are tough at the moment, but we've had it pretty good over the years. We need to change our business model, and we'll have to adapt. But it's a work in progress.

Sorry for the slightly rambling response, and for not giving you any substantial answers. Let's just say that I'm not feeling particularly focused today.

[gstelmack]

I think there is a clear difference between academic and trade. When you're moving 100K+ units, that fixed cost of copy-editing and typesetting should disappear compared to 3K units. I don't buy academic tomes on Kindle, I'm buying science fiction and other novels.

[MikeVic]

I've been reading a lot more in the last few months so I looked into getting a Kindle (or something similar), but was pretty shocked that the prices are fairly close for the books I was looking at. I'd rather take a hard-copy book from the library, or buy a physical copy to read rather than invest in one of these and also pay the same amount for digital books. Yes it makes reading more convenient (less bulk, easy to carry, etc.), but the cost is still not where I'd like it to be.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Subby

Dangarion - the point is that this is not a full featured tablet. Anything but, to be honest. It's sole purpose is to consume content you purchase from Amazon.com.

Yeah I understand that, and at that price it is a great deal and solidly puts them in the tablet market as a contender.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The thread title also deserves this.

need more of this.

[DaddyTorgo]

Word from Beezos that Amazon isn't going to go to any lengths to try to restrict people from rooting either.

[terpkristin]

Well I pre-ordered a Fire. I figure that I've been working some OT lately and it'd be a fun toy to goof off with.

Funnily, the last mission that I was more or less the lead on, I used the OT to buy a Kindle 2 (which I still have and use regularly). This one probably won't get much book use, but I want to see how it goes....

/tk

[stevew]

Do they charge you at pre order, or when it ships? Was thinking of getting one for my daughter cause she wants a kindle, and is always messing with my iPad.

[jeff061]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Word from Beezos that Amazon isn't going to go to any lengths to try to restrict people from rooting either.

This is huge given what they are doing with it. Only question is how well it performs when you start doing non stock stuff with it. If its half way decent I'm in.

[Havok]

I'm going to be getting a kindle for Christmas this year and this looks extremely appealing to me. Now my question is, will it still have the E-ink screen thingy that the regular kindles have?

[cougarfreak]

Originally Posted by Havok

I'm going to be getting a kindle for Christmas this year and this looks extremely appealing to me. Now my question is, will it still have the E-ink screen thingy that the regular kindles have?

No, I do not believe it does. That's why I'll probably stick with the kindle touch.

[Draft Dodger]

I was set on getting a Fire, but I didn't realize I pretty much had to buy all my crap through Amazon I'll probably pass

[Havok]

Originally Posted by cougarfreak

No, I do not believe it does. That's why I'll probably stick with the kindle touch.

man that sucks

[Scoobz0202]

I'm also really curious about the touch. While reading earlier I was thinking about the touch interface and i just do not know if I want it. After using my kindle for over a year I kind of have it set how i hold it and turn the pages just using one hand. Stupid, I know, to think I can't just hold it a different way. I wish the touch kept the page turn buttons just for the sake of having them there.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

I was set on getting a Fire, but I didn't realize I pretty much had to buy all my crap through Amazon I'll probably pass

Who says you have to. You can root it and install whatever you want.

[Draft Dodger]

in English please?

[jeff061]

You can jail break it. But unlike Apple, Amazon is ok with you doing it. So it shouldn't be a hassle.

[Draft Dodger]

but then can I buy an ebook from Amazon if I'm so inclined?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

but then can I buy an ebook from Amazon if I'm so inclined?

Yep. Jail breaking it won't affect your ability to run amazon apps...it will just open it up so you can customize it in any number of ways (say removing the amazon browser or the UI).

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Yep. Jail breaking it won't affect your ability to run amazon apps...it will just open it up so you can customize it in any number of ways (say removing the amazon browser or the UI).

Do you know what OS they will use? Something Amazon made?

Also...any idea whether they will have a DRM-capable video chip? Just thinking that if you do use custom software, wondering how something like Netflix might work on it.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

Do you know what OS they will use? Something Amazon made?

Also...any idea whether they will have a DRM-capable video chip? Just thinking that if you do use custom software, wondering how something like Netflix might work on it.

If I recall aren't they using a fork off of android 2.2? The UI itself though is completely redone to be simplified and stripped down and feature amazon services.

But once you root you spill be able to load up any version of android.

[stevew]

I'm guessing that it will run like garbage if rooted. It's optimized for their specific UI. The hardware itself is probably not packing a ton of power.

[Scoobz0202]

That really depends on some variables I think steve. The hardware will surely not be similar to a $500 tablet. But with the amount of tablets that could potentially be sold there are some really capable developers in the rooting world that will take notice. I have no doubt that there will be those out there that are able to optimize a root that runs fine on it. Maybe not with blazing speed, but I wouldn't say garbage at all. Speaking just for phones, I've rooted three, all on android. Never did a root run slower then the stock. Actually, it ran better everytime. The optimizing towards amazon software, eh, I don't know how much of an impact that will have on what the hardware itself is capable of.

There's still a lot of questions, though, and it is way too early to tell. I plan on pre-ordering and keeping my fingers crossed. Worse case, I will take full advantage of the awesome return policy that amazon has.

Or I may just wait for a 10 inch that is rumored. I've even seen rumors of a 10 inch amazon tablet for the end of this year. Who knows.

[Scoobz0202]

Found this fascinating for those considering a kindle. If you decide to purchase a kindle, might as well buy the ad-supported one. Through your kindle you can turn ad's off for a $30 fee if you find them to be too annoying.



http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817...id=euoERVHC6FY

[Doug5984]

Originally Posted by Scoobz0202

Found this fascinating for those considering a kindle. If you decide to purchase a kindle, might as well buy the ad-supported one. Through your kindle you can turn ad's off for a $30 fee if you find them to be too annoying.



Amazon Allowing Users to Pay to Get Rid of Kindle Ads | News & Opinion | PCMag.com

In the other e-book thread I posted my experiences with the kindle ads- they are great. They never interfere with anything, and I've used quite a few of them to get "free" things (but any book off this list get $10 amazon gift card- and the books are as cheap as $2- $8 free). I forget all the ones I've used, but they are pretty great.

[Scoobz0202]

Yea. I had the 3rd gen without, now i have the 4th with ads and it's fine. Sure, some of the pictures for screen savers were neat but not $30 neat.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Scoobz0202

Found this fascinating for those considering a kindle. If you decide to purchase a kindle, might as well buy the ad-supported one. Through your kindle you can turn ad's off for a $30 fee if you find them to be too annoying.



Amazon Allowing Users to Pay to Get Rid of Kindle Ads | News & Opinion | PCMag.com

I saw this and had similar thoughts. Almost no reason to buy the 100 dollar version now, especially if you're unsure how much you will use it.

[Draft Dodger]

well, just took the plunge and pre-ordered one

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by stevew

I'm guessing that it will run like garbage if rooted. It's optimized for their specific UI. The hardware itself is probably not packing a ton of power.

I rooted my color nook to cyanogenmod, which is the most popular android aftermarket build.

http://www.cyanogenmod.com/

I'm sure they'll have a Fire version available at some point.

The rooting allows me to overclock the cpu and remove crapware, among other things. I saw a substantial improvement in performance using recommended tweaks. Essentially I got an android tablet with eInk for around $200 (forget the exact price I paid, less than retail).

If you're able to do the same for the Fire, it's certainly a bargain as long as you don't mind the smaller screen.

[stevew]

Anyone have a Kindle Fire yet?

[SirFozzie]

Me!

I find it pretty neat.. the only thing I don't like so far (other then one hang), is that you're locked out of the android market, and that you have to use the Amazon Appstore for purchases. Some of my games are not available in the Appstore.

[terpkristin]

I have the Fire.

It's pretty good at what it is...which is basically a larger personal media device. I'm quite enjoying reading on it (more than I thought I would...I'm actually using it more than my 2nd gen Kindle for reading right now). The apps are alright...I've got an iPhone so I'm not really looking for too many apps. Still hunting for a good Twitter app, though...

Haven't used the music feature (see previous comment about owning an iPhone...), nor do I envision really doing so. First night I got it, I wanted to play around with shopping the Amazon store on it so bought and downloaded the movie "Super" on it. It works pretty well. I also grabbed the Netflix app, and have streamed stuff from both Netflix and Amazon Prime. It works well over my wi-fi. I've read other people complaining that it doesn't work well, but I'm chalking that up to a network issue. I enjoy streaming something while I'm in bed, trying to get ready to doze. I don't like having the TV on--too bright and I'm less likely to turn it off. This works well.

The web browser is alright. I'm kind of annoyed that it loads the mobile versions of GMail and Google Reader, but that's a small nit. I loaded (and bookmarked) all of the pages I visit regularly and they all work well. I've surfed a bit in bed every night so far...

Three gripes:
1) It should have hardware buttons or otherwise one-tap access for volume control. It amazes me it doesn't.
2) The "coverflow" on the main page is annoying. I far prefer the "shelf" system it has. I wish the main page was a full shelf of favorite apps and books I could select.
3) It doesn't come with a cable to hook it into my computer...or any other USB charger that I have. Also, the cable on the charger that comes with it is super short. I can't sit on my couch and use it while it's charging, which is irritating.

All in all, a lot of the minor nits I have with it (such as coverflow) and I've seen written about it could be fixed with firmware/software updates. I like it. I'm going to take it to my folks' house for Thanksgiving and it's going to be my main web device when I go to London next month (though I'm going for work so will have my work laptop with me).

It's not an iPad replacement, and nor do I think it's really trying to be. But in my opinion, it's pretty good at what it's intended to be...

/tk

[cougarfreak]

Terp, so your 2nd gen Kindle USB doesn't work with the fire?

[Buccaneer]

Terp, let me get this straight. You have a home PC/laptop, a work PC (I assume), an iPad, an iPod, and iPhone, a Kindle and now a Fire. Why?

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Terp, let me get this straight. You have a home PC/laptop, a work PC (I assume), an iPad, an iPod, and iPhone, a Kindle and now a Fire. Why?

She's a chick that likes her gadgets man!

[terpkristin]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Terp, let me get this straight. You have a home PC/laptop, a work PC (I assume), an iPad, an iPod, and iPhone, a Kindle and now a Fire. Why?

Actually no iPad...yet (holding out for 3rd gen...)

But I do have an iPod Classic, an iPod Nano (4th gen), and an iPod shuffle (3rd gen?) in addition to the iPhone....

As spleen said, I like gadgets....

Originally Posted by cougarfreak

Terp, so your 2nd gen Kindle USB doesn't work with the fire?

It seems to. But I was surprised that the charger for the Fire wasn't more like the plug that I got with the 2nd gen Kindle which was a plug that goes into an outlet and has a USB port, with a USB-to-mini USB cable... I read somewhere that the Fire needs a 2.1 A USB charger instead of a (more standard?) 1.x A USB charger.

/tk

[cougarfreak]

Originally Posted by terpkristin

Actually no iPad...yet (holding out for 3rd gen...)

But I do have an iPod Classic, an iPod Nano (4th gen), and an iPod shuffle (3rd gen?) in addition to the iPhone....

As spleen said, I like gadgets....



It seems to. But I was surprised that the charger for the Fire wasn't more like the plug that I got with the 2nd gen Kindle which was a plug that goes into an outlet and has a USB port, with a USB-to-mini USB cable... I read somewhere that the Fire needs a 2.1 A USB charger instead of a (more standard?) 1.x A USB charger.

/tk

Thanks, I've been getting conflicting reports on whether the previous Kindle USB cords work. That is a must for me. I have lots of books that I've converted with Calibre that I'll need to transfer over if I get a Fire.

[terpkristin]

Originally Posted by cougarfreak

Thanks, I've been getting conflicting reports on whether the previous Kindle USB cords work. That is a must for me. I have lots of books that I've converted with Calibre that I'll need to transfer over if I get a Fire.

In the interest of complete honesty, I'm not sure if I'm doing any damage to my Fire by using it. But it seems to work....

And I was able to plug my Fire into my computer and drag a copy of The Last Ringbearer .mobi file I had lying around to it. And the file worked just fine, it was recognized as a book and I could read it just like on my 2nd gen Kindle...

/tk

[cougarfreak]

In the interest of complete honesty, I'm not sure if I'm doing any damage to my Fire by using it. But it seems to work....

And I was able to plug my Fire into my computer and drag a copy of The Last Ringbearer .mobi file I had lying around to it. And the file worked just fine, it was recognized as a book and I could read it just like on my 2nd gen Kindle...

/tk

Good to know. I appreciate it.

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk

[SirFozzie]

Get Calibre for converting books between ereader formats and to put them on the Fire. The previous Kindle USB cord (and plug iunto electrical outlet) works for me.

[stevew]

If anything, it would be a similar situation to the iPhone/iPad. You can charge the iPad with the iPhone adapter, but it takes a long time because it doesn't provide as much charge.

[cougarfreak]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Get Calibre for converting books between ereader formats and to put them on the Fire. The previous Kindle USB cord (and plug iunto electrical outlet) works for me.

That's what I was wanting to know before I buy one. Thanks, I appreciate it.

[Draft Dodger]

I'm liking mine as well. It was a real struggle on Friday night trying to get everything set up I think because Amazon's servers were getting hammered. Since then, it's been better, although I still find the web surfing to be sluggish.

Did buy one book and really enjoyed reading on it. So far, definitely a good purchase. Need to pick up a little case for it though.