[POL] Reason #1,456 I Can Never Be a Republican

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

I agree, I just don't see it happening right now.

Much of the reason I'm disenchated from politics in general...

[Jesse_Ewiak]

Here's the thing.

The reason why I reacted the way I did - because I've been poor. Not just poor, but poor. Coming home from school, not knowing if all the utilities will be on, not knowing whar food, if any will be in the fridge. Things like school lunches helped because there were times when they were the only thing I got to eat today. So, it affects me a bit.

Countless numbers of American middle class families are one month, one week, or one very bad day away from being poor, indebted, or homeless, or at the very least not having enough food for the kids during one particular week.

This isn't some overreaction. This is fact. The vast pluarity of the nation who aren't well off simply don't have savings that can less them past a large emergency such as losing their job, a medical catasophore, or something like that.

I don't get how the idea that some poor person, somewhere, might be sucking a dime too many out of the system is largely used as the reason to carve, gut and bury whatever safety-net welfare programs the party sets its eyes on. Rather screw a thousand people, than to have the children of some undeserving "welfare queen" get milk today.

However, God help us if an another business-humping, morality-punching tax cut for the folks with greens fees to pay.

This is yet another demonstration of how the vast majority of Republicans both in government and as this thread shows, in real life would rather dump your grandmother in a ditch by the side of the road than withstand the Satanic Fucking Communism of having to pay that extra one percent here or there.

But ya' know, whatever.

I can't wait to hear the Fox News spin on how this is hurting the God given economic competitiveness of the investor class.

[RendeR]

Be patient young ewiak....the revolution is coming, and its going to be bloody.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Jesse_Ewiak

... would rather dump your grandmother in a ditch by the side of the road than withstand the Satanic Fucking Communism of having to pay that extra one percent here or there.

No child, HERE'S "the thing" -- I have no intention of dumping my grandmother in the ditch ... but I didn't take on "a village" to raise & damned
sure don't believe anybody ought to be volunteering me for the task at gunpoint.

I didn't work just short of 80 fucking hours in the past seven days so I could have my income "redistributed" -- I did it so I could buy my kid "Battlefront 2", so we can be in position to move next spring in order to give him access to a much better school.

I did it so my wife could enjoy a weekend antique auction with her best friend before she faces more surgery this coming week, her second surgery for fucking tumors in less than six months. The last one was malignant, who knows what this one will be, but I sure don't begrudge her a little distraction from the subject for 36 hours or so.

I did it so that I might not worry about buying myself another tabletop sports game that I might be able enjoy if I ever have the energy & concentration level to play again. Some of those are easily equivalent to greens fees but frankly, I earned every damned bit of it so who in the bloody hell do you think you are to criticize that for the tiniest fraction of a second?

You want some of that? Then bust your ass & try to get it. There's no guarantee of it, but effort damned sure improves the odds.

My first full time job started at 9am the Saturday morning after I graduated HS on a Friday night & after 20+ years of working 50-60 hours a week more often than not, for the last 4 years or so I've finally managed to get past worrying about the utility bill every month

What I didn't work until I couldn't think straight, or barely sleep for more than 4 hours running, or until I can hardly stand to eat for the indigestion that follows every meal for was so that I could have more money than the average household income taken out of my ass in taxes for yet another year. Or so I can watch even more money poured down the multitude of governmental dry holes that produce a highly inadequate return on investment.

Here's a newsflash for you -- the world doesn't owe you a living, it doesn't owe or anybody else a motherfucking thing, no matter how much that pains your sorry liberal ass, it's the straight truth. And I wish to hell the government would finally pull its head out of collective ass long enough to remember that fact, and take at least one hand out of one of my pockets.

When you're paying the tax load I'm paying, then you tell me how oh-so- inconsequential it is. Until then, I'd suggest you stick to subjects you know something about.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

]
I did it so my wife could enjoy a weekend antique auction with her best friend before she faces more surgery this coming week, her second surgery for fucking tumors in less than six months. The last one was malignant, who knows what this one will be, but I sure don't begrudge her a little distraction from the subject for 36 hours or so.

Hope your wife's surgery goes well. My thoughts are with your family.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Hope your wife's surgery goes well. My thoughts are with your family.

Thanks Galaxy, I appreciate that.

I didn't plan to mention it quite this way, but once in a while some of the crap I read strikes a damned nerve.

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

As a current and, soon to be former member of the military I feel that the govt should cut alot of pork from the military. There are many useless military programs out there that need to be axed (The horrible FBCB 2 systems, army orders for guarding (thats right), guarding gates of recruiting offices, I pulled this duty for 2 mos. this summer as the ''Sergeant of the guard).'' Im sure there are lots of other ''useless'' military pork out there that needs to be axed and, wont ''jeopardize natl security.''

Edit: On my 2 month tour as a gate guard this summer, me and, my soldiers saw alot of action assaulting the snack machines, math homework, various DVD's on our laptops and, my DaDa Expressionist Artwork for my Art 160 class, and I got an my 3rd AAM and, 3rd NDSM medals for it. God Bless America.

[wade moore]

JiMG summed up what I'm trying to say pretty well...

I'm not saying that the rich should get MORE... Or that the rich should get taxed LESS... I'm saying that EVERYONE should get taxed less and take some damned personal responsibility. Yes, many middle-class family are one paycheck from being homeless. I'm not disagreeing with that fact. But who's fault is that? Not mine. In fact, I'm not far off of that myself. However, I go out to dinner twice a week, I own a house with a .5 acre lot, I have a relatively new car, I buy video games... so, it's my choice to be here as it is for all middle class americans, and many lower class americans...

Again.. I'm in favor of a temporary safety net for folks and a permanent one for those who are physically/mentally unABLE to hold a job (the handicapped, the disabled, etc)...

I hope to be in a better financial situation one day. I drive 2 1/2-3 hours a day, work about 10 hours a day, lose my weekends often, etc. just to be successfuly at my job. I do that so that (as jon said) I can improve my family's lifestyle. Not so that I can support someone who is unwilling to better themselves.

(NOTE: Notice I'm not saying welfare mom's or any other blanket statement. There are many groups that take advantage of government handouts and do not get their on their own for long periods of time)

[judicial clerk]

I am all for spending time and money in an effort to make welfare programs more efficient and make sure we're getting the proper benefit out of those programs.

Let's start with corporate welfare, shall we?

Ha Ha! Nice try, but the "Americans For Laws That Let Corporations Avoid Taxation, Liability, And Common Decency" Lobby is stronger than the "Americans Too Irresponsible To Make Sure That Their Kid Has A Fucking Sandwich When They Go To School In The Morning" Lobby.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

No child, HERE'S "the thing" -- I have no intention of dumping my grandmother in the ditch ... but I didn't take on "a village" to raise & damned
sure don't believe anybody ought to be volunteering me for the task at gunpoint.

I didn't work just short of 80 fucking hours in the past seven days so I could have my income "redistributed" -- I did it so I could buy my kid "Battlefront 2", so we can be in position to move next spring in order to give him access to a much better school.

I did it so my wife could enjoy a weekend antique auction with her best friend before she faces more surgery this coming week, her second surgery for fucking tumors in less than six months. The last one was malignant, who knows what this one will be, but I sure don't begrudge her a little distraction from the subject for 36 hours or so.

I did it so that I might not worry about buying myself another tabletop sports game that I might be able enjoy if I ever have the energy & concentration level to play again. Some of those are easily equivalent to greens fees but frankly, I earned every damned bit of it so who in the bloody hell do you think you are to criticize that for the tiniest fraction of a second?

You want some of that? Then bust your ass & try to get it. There's no guarantee of it, but effort damned sure improves the odds.

My first full time job started at 9am the Saturday morning after I graduated HS on a Friday night & after 20+ years of working 50-60 hours a week more often than not, for the last 4 years or so I've finally managed to get past worrying about the utility bill every month

What I didn't work until I couldn't think straight, or barely sleep for more than 4 hours running, or until I can hardly stand to eat for the indigestion that follows every meal for was so that I could have more money than the average household income taken out of my ass in taxes for yet another year. Or so I can watch even more money poured down the multitude of governmental dry holes that produce a highly inadequate return on investment.

Here's a newsflash for you -- the world doesn't owe you a living, it doesn't owe or anybody else a motherfucking thing, no matter how much that pains your sorry liberal ass, it's the straight truth. And I wish to hell the government would finally pull its head out of collective ass long enough to remember that fact, and take at least one hand out of one of my pockets.

When you're paying the tax load I'm paying, then you tell me how oh-so- inconsequential it is. Until then, I'd suggest you stick to subjects you know something about.

Jesse just got knocked the fuck out!

[CamEdwards]

Indeed, Dutch.

And Jon, you and your family are in my prayers.

[Mustang]

After that.. I think I have a man crush on Jon...

[John Galt]

Although I'm not a big fan of high taxation and am generally economically conservative, I think the right-wing mantra of "mine is mine" is mistaken.

I approach things from a very different angle. Ask yourself this question: who benefits the most with the American experiment? The poor in the U.S. are better off than other parts of the world, but the difference is not as extreme as it is for the rich (and super-rich). The view that the poor take, take, and take some more is not supported by the reality of economic distribution in America. The right-wing views wealth as natural. The money is theirs based upon some first principle. But this isn't the case.

Money is printed by government. Job opportunities only exist because of the social organization our government brings. Markets only thrive because the government is there. The rich may not collect a welfare check, but they derive FAR more benefits from the government than the poor. The entire edifice of wealth in America is ONLY possible because of the government. Their is nothing "natural" or "inalienable" about it. Wealth and money are fictions that maximize efficiency in a market system. That doesn't mean they are "bad" or "good" - they just are. Claims to absolute rights over that "money" is nonsense. It is just a means provided by the government to exchange goods. It is not the same as the right to your body, your freedom, or even other property.

To claim someone else is "stealing" your money from taxation ignores the basic fact that the money was only yours by virtue of the government creating it.

I find it odd that the right-wing is the party of patriotism when the ethic of "mine is mine" is very anti-patriotic. Arguing that someone should sacrifice their life (a very patriotic act) for the sake of the American experiment, but they shouldn't sacrifice money for that same end is nonsense to me. Taxation is patriotic. It is a way of the citizens supporting the larger project. And everyone must contribute their share to make sure that the American project is worth something.

Now, we can debate about how that project should be designed (maybe welfare isn't a good idea? - that's what legislatures are for). But, never should we say "mine is mine" and "leave my stuff alone." That is the epitomy of anti-American, IMO.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Mustang

After that.. I think I have a man crush on Jon...

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by John Galt

I find it odd that the right-wing is the party of patriotism when the ethic of "mine is mine" is very anti-patriotic. Arguing that someone should sacrifice their life (a very patriotic act) for the sake of the American experiment, but they shouldn't sacrifice money for that same end is nonsense to me.

Americans donated how much money to the Tsunami victims in Asia? To Hurricane Katrina? How much time did we donate? For free? We didn't wait for a government mandate to do that (even though the government also paid out large sums to help). We didn't wait for a tax hike. We did it because 1.) Most Americans are patriots and thoughtful and 2.) Our "experimental government" as you so kindly put it has empowered us like no other in history to do so on our own. We should be proud of that accomplishment, not mock it.

[Bubba Wheels]

Some examples of 'Good Liberals" vs. "Evil Republicans." Enjoy http://newsmax.com/adv/doasisay/?PROMO_CODE=168A-1

[digamma]

Dear Bubba,

Missed you.

xoxo,
digamma

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by digamma

Dear Bubba,

Missed you.

xoxo,
digamma

Real life intrudes. I'll still be around, but in much smaller doses. Good news for those who think that Jon Stewart and Bill Mahr are 'smart.'

[-Mojo Jojo-]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Americans donated how much money to the Tsunami victims in Asia? To Hurricane Katrina? How much time did we donate? For free? We didn't wait for a government mandate to do that (even though the government also paid out large sums to help). We didn't wait for a tax hike. We did it because 1.) Most Americans are patriots and thoughtful and 2.) Our "experimental government" as you so kindly put it has empowered us like no other in history to do so on our own. We should be proud of that accomplishment, not mock it.

Is there a reason why we don't disband the military and just ask people to grab their guns and buy a plane ticket when we need to fight a war somewhere?

[Havok]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

No child, HERE'S "the thing" -- I have no intention of dumping my grandmother in the ditch ... but I didn't take on "a village" to raise & damned
sure don't believe anybody ought to be volunteering me for the task at gunpoint.

I didn't work just short of 80 fucking hours in the past seven days so I could have my income "redistributed" -- I did it so I could buy my kid "Battlefront 2", so we can be in position to move next spring in order to give him access to a much better school.

I did it so my wife could enjoy a weekend antique auction with her best friend before she faces more surgery this coming week, her second surgery for fucking tumors in less than six months. The last one was malignant, who knows what this one will be, but I sure don't begrudge her a little distraction from the subject for 36 hours or so.

I did it so that I might not worry about buying myself another tabletop sports game that I might be able enjoy if I ever have the energy & concentration level to play again. Some of those are easily equivalent to greens fees but frankly, I earned every damned bit of it so who in the bloody hell do you think you are to criticize that for the tiniest fraction of a second?

You want some of that? Then bust your ass & try to get it. There's no guarantee of it, but effort damned sure improves the odds.

My first full time job started at 9am the Saturday morning after I graduated HS on a Friday night & after 20+ years of working 50-60 hours a week more often than not, for the last 4 years or so I've finally managed to get past worrying about the utility bill every month

What I didn't work until I couldn't think straight, or barely sleep for more than 4 hours running, or until I can hardly stand to eat for the indigestion that follows every meal for was so that I could have more money than the average household income taken out of my ass in taxes for yet another year. Or so I can watch even more money poured down the multitude of governmental dry holes that produce a highly inadequate return on investment.

Here's a newsflash for you -- the world doesn't owe you a living, it doesn't owe or anybody else a motherfucking thing, no matter how much that pains your sorry liberal ass, it's the straight truth. And I wish to hell the government would finally pull its head out of collective ass long enough to remember that fact, and take at least one hand out of one of my pockets.

When you're paying the tax load I'm paying, then you tell me how oh-so- inconsequential it is. Until then, I'd suggest you stick to subjects you know something about.

respect

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by -Mojo Jojo-

Is there a reason why we don't disband the military and just ask people to grab their guns and buy a plane ticket when we need to fight a war somewhere?

This does not compute.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by Dutch

This does not compute.

Not quite sure what he is saying (not you, the other guy).

I believe we raised $1.2-$1.3 billion for Katrina through the Red Cross.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by John Galt

I approach things from a very different angle. Ask yourself this question: who benefits the most with the American experiment? The poor in the U.S. are better off than other parts of the world, but the difference is not as extreme as it is for the rich (and super-rich). The view that the poor take, take, and take some more is not supported by the reality of economic distribution in America. The right-wing views wealth as natural. The money is theirs based upon some first principle. But this isn't the case.

I disagree. Because of the wealth and opportunity our system creates, we don't have mass starvation like third-world countries face. There is a safety net. There is opportunity for anyone determined to seek it out.

The poor in many countries don't have any opportunity. They often face caste systems that make advancement impossible, even with determination. They face judicial systems that presume guilt for the slightest infraction.

In Sudan recently, hundreds of thousands of people have been slaughtered and many more run from their homes simply because they're poor and they don't happen to be Muslim. Could that happen in America?

I would agree that the rich benefit from America more than the poor do. But the rich also pay more in taxes. I don't think people have the right to whine about others not "paying their fair share" when they pay less in taxes than the person they're complaining about.

As for the complaints that corporations don't pay enough, or have tax loopholes. Yes, more should be done to close loopholes, but keep in mind that corporations generate jobs, and attracting jobs for your constituents benefits everyone in a community. Some tax breaks are good investments in a community.

[Icy]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

As for the complaints that corporations don't pay enough, or have tax loopholes. Yes, more should be done to close loopholes, but keep in mind that corporations generate jobs, and attracting jobs for your constituents benefits everyone in a community. Some tax breaks are good investments in a community.

I like that part, sometimes i have that discussions with my friends. I work for my own company while they work for other companies so we have totaly different points of view. They complain and complain about how much money their boss earn, about that they do all the work, about that the company should pay way more and give them more hollydays, that the goberment should put really high taxes on the companies, that the pressure should be way higher to avoid companies getting as rich, etc.

Then i just tell them, ok, you're right, lets tell your company owners that they need to win exactly the same amount than workers do, but also pay double taxes, etc etc... then who the hell is going to start a company that gives all them a job??

I agree that the taxes loopholes must be closed, but also that if you put too much pressure on companies, they end closing the doors and moving to a 3rd world country and then everybody will lose his job, as it's happening now in Europe, all the companies are moving to the new east european countries.

I find funny that everybody complains about companies, but are that companies who give you a job. The owner earns more than you? yes, but he is who took the risk too. Try to start a company yourself, it's not that easy, also i can get rich with good luck and hard work, while the worker won't, but also i can get ruined and lose it all. Also the worker journy ends and he goes home to rest, while my bussines is in my brain the whole day.

[Buccaneer]

My libertarian "mantra" comes down to personal responsibilities, not govt responsibilities. To put it simply, $500 going to the local food bank or ecumenical ministries does far more good than $500 going to a federal entitlement agency. I understand economy of scales but what if all of us had more disposable income and feel that we should provide more of our resources (time that we waste, material goods that we throw out, and money that we squander) to be the safety net for those in need? Paying our taxes to a bloated, ineffecient and ineffective federal govt bureacracy does NOT relief of the responsibilities - not only to our own family, but our extended families and our neighbors as well. If we as citizens took more responsibilites, be more active in our local communities - and if people tithe to what is commanded - then there would be no need to for the federal govts to allocate and waste more of our money.

[Joe Canadian]

Originally Posted by Jesse_Ewiak

Here's the thing.

The reason why I reacted the way I did - because I've been poor. Not just poor, but poor. Coming home from school, not knowing if all the utilities will be on, not knowing whar food, if any will be in the fridge. Things like school lunches helped because there were times when they were the only thing I got to eat today. So, it affects me a bit.

Countless numbers of American middle class families are one month, one week, or one very bad day away from being poor, indebted, or homeless, or at the very least not having enough food for the kids during one particular week.

This isn't some overreaction. This is fact. The vast pluarity of the nation who aren't well off simply don't have savings that can less them past a large emergency such as losing their job, a medical catasophore, or something like that.

I don't get how the idea that some poor person, somewhere, might be sucking a dime too many out of the system is largely used as the reason to carve, gut and bury whatever safety-net welfare programs the party sets its eyes on. Rather screw a thousand people, than to have the children of some undeserving "welfare queen" get milk today.

However, God help us if an another business-humping, morality-punching tax cut for the folks with greens fees to pay.

This is yet another demonstration of how the vast majority of Republicans both in government and as this thread shows, in real life would rather dump your grandmother in a ditch by the side of the road than withstand the Satanic Fucking Communism of having to pay that extra one percent here or there.

But ya' know, whatever.

I can't wait to hear the Fox News spin on how this is hurting the God given economic competitiveness of the investor class.

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

No child, HERE'S "the thing" -- I have no intention of dumping my grandmother in the ditch ... but I didn't take on "a village" to raise & damned
sure don't believe anybody ought to be volunteering me for the task at gunpoint.

I didn't work just short of 80 fucking hours in the past seven days so I could have my income "redistributed" -- I did it so I could buy my kid "Battlefront 2", so we can be in position to move next spring in order to give him access to a much better school.

I did it so my wife could enjoy a weekend antique auction with her best friend before she faces more surgery this coming week, her second surgery for fucking tumors in less than six months. The last one was malignant, who knows what this one will be, but I sure don't begrudge her a little distraction from the subject for 36 hours or so.

I did it so that I might not worry about buying myself another tabletop sports game that I might be able enjoy if I ever have the energy & concentration level to play again. Some of those are easily equivalent to greens fees but frankly, I earned every damned bit of it so who in the bloody hell do you think you are to criticize that for the tiniest fraction of a second?

You want some of that? Then bust your ass & try to get it. There's no guarantee of it, but effort damned sure improves the odds.

My first full time job started at 9am the Saturday morning after I graduated HS on a Friday night & after 20+ years of working 50-60 hours a week more often than not, for the last 4 years or so I've finally managed to get past worrying about the utility bill every month

What I didn't work until I couldn't think straight, or barely sleep for more than 4 hours running, or until I can hardly stand to eat for the indigestion that follows every meal for was so that I could have more money than the average household income taken out of my ass in taxes for yet another year. Or so I can watch even more money poured down the multitude of governmental dry holes that produce a highly inadequate return on investment.

Here's a newsflash for you -- the world doesn't owe you a living, it doesn't owe or anybody else a motherfucking thing, no matter how much that pains your sorry liberal ass, it's the straight truth. And I wish to hell the government would finally pull its head out of collective ass long enough to remember that fact, and take at least one hand out of one of my pockets.

When you're paying the tax load I'm paying, then you tell me how oh-so- inconsequential it is. Until then, I'd suggest you stick to subjects you know something about.

Both of you guys certainly like to "hear yourselves talk" so to speak... because that's about all both of you accomplished.

[Buccaneer]

I have always felt (but not sure if entirely accurate) that the failure (in the system) of the poor is in direct proportion to the success of the rich. Not in creating a wider gap but in the incentive that all can become richer. The same system that would limit those being poor would also limit those being rich. We cannot have that because of the great employment and economical benefits that wealthy, growing companies can bring.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Jesse_Ewiak

Fuck These Fucking Fucks.
A separate House measure would scale back federal administrative aid to state child-support enforcement programs, saving the federal government nearly $5 billion over five years but potentially cutting child-support collections even more.

State enforcement of child support doesn't help the kids get money. It's just a state government boondoggle done in the face of people getting welfare. It's not particularly useful in the grand scheme of things.

[Glengoyne]

How can I somewhat agree with Jon and John in this post actually stuns me. I don't completely agree with John's premise that personal or corporate wealth is owed to the government, and I don't fully agree with Jon's "I earned it, I shouldn't have to support others in society." Yet I agree with much of the rest they said.

I guess the truth lies somewhere in the middle. The wealthy do owe some of their position to the government, but they have also earned that position almost entirely on their own. As for the amount the rich pay in taxes, there are worse positions to be in. I really don't think the rich should pay more than their fair share, but they do need to pay. It does upset me when I hear people say that the rich are getting off cheap, when they pay far more dollar wise in taxes than the rest of us. I'm no fan of class warfare/redistribution of wealth philosophy that Jesse Ewok and a few others around here seem to advocate.

It comes down to degrees. Everyone needs to pay their fair share for the governement, and those with wealth shouldn't be essentially fined for garnering it.

[Joe Canadian]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

It comes down to degrees. Everyone needs to pay their fair share for the governement, and those with wealth shouldn't be essentially fined for garnering it.

Exactly!

[-Mojo Jojo-]

Originally Posted by Dutch

This does not compute.

JG suggested that it is Patriotic to support the endeavors of the federal government through taxes just as it is to support it by serving in the military. It was an interesting analogy and you ignored it, responding that we do not need to support those endeavors through the federal government because we can just pay for them directly. I'm curious if you think the same is true of the military, and, if not, why not?

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by -Mojo Jojo-

JG suggested that it is Patriotic to support the endeavors of the federal government through taxes just as it is to support it by serving in the military. It was an interesting analogy and you ignored it, responding that we do not need to support those endeavors through the federal government because we can just pay for them directly. I'm curious if you think the same is true of the military, and, if not, why not?

You think we should all *individually* go to a warzone without organization and fight for the USA? That is unrealistic.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Joe Canadian

Both of you guys certainly like to "hear yourselves talk" so to speak... because that's about all both of you accomplished.

And you've managed what exactly ... ???

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And you've managed what exactly ... ???

He got to hear himself talk....at least.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

How can I somewhat agree with Jon and John in this post actually stuns me. I don't completely agree with John's premise that personal or corporate wealth is owed to the government, and I don't fully agree with Jon's "I earned it, I shouldn't have to support others in society." Yet I agree with much of the rest they said.

I guess the truth lies somewhere in the middle. The wealthy do owe some of their position to the government, but they have also earned that position almost entirely on their own. As for the amount the rich pay in taxes, there are worse positions to be in. I really don't think the rich should pay more than their fair share, but they do need to pay. It does upset me when I hear people say that the rich are getting off cheap, when they pay far more dollar wise in taxes than the rest of us. I'm no fan of class warfare/redistribution of wealth philosophy that Jesse Ewok and a few others around here seem to advocate.

It comes down to degrees. Everyone needs to pay their fair share for the governement, and those with wealth shouldn't be essentially fined for garnering it.

I agree, but I don't think most (sane) moderate left people are really suggesting the top tax bracket pay more than 40% anyway (and really closer to 36%). That really isn't that great of an amount considering how much the top tax bracket makes. The reality of the situation is that the government setup allows those at the top to make their riches. Without the government's protection Sam Walton doesn't make the money he did. Bill Gates doesn't make the money he does. I think the feds asking for 35-40% is not to burdensome to ask for, especially since they have fostered and helped create the situation that allows such a wealth.

Of course that doesn't mean we should go back to the 50s, where the top percent paid 90% to the government. That's foolish. However, not many are arguing for that.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Dutch

We should be proud of that accomplishment, not mock it.

How did I mock America?

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

I disagree. Because of the wealth and opportunity our system creates, we don't have mass starvation like third-world countries face. There is a safety net. There is opportunity for anyone determined to seek it out.

The poor in many countries don't have any opportunity. They often face caste systems that make advancement impossible, even with determination. They face judicial systems that presume guilt for the slightest infraction.

In Sudan recently, hundreds of thousands of people have been slaughtered and many more run from their homes simply because they're poor and they don't happen to be Muslim. Could that happen in America?

I would agree that the rich benefit from America more than the poor do. But the rich also pay more in taxes. I don't think people have the right to whine about others not "paying their fair share" when they pay less in taxes than the person they're complaining about.

As for the complaints that corporations don't pay enough, or have tax loopholes. Yes, more should be done to close loopholes, but keep in mind that corporations generate jobs, and attracting jobs for your constituents benefits everyone in a community. Some tax breaks are good investments in a community.

I think comparing the U.S. to 3rd World countries is not very helpful. The U.S. has numerous advantages over those countries that have nothing to do with government and economic systems. A comparison with other 1st world nations seems more appropriate, IMO.

And I'm not arguing in favor of higher taxes on the rich. I'm simply attacking the belief that taxes are theft and that there is an inalienable right to money. I'm fine debating whether any given tax is a good or bad idea on utilitarian grounds. I just feel the liberty approach to taxation is based on a few bad assumptions.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Here's a newsflash for you -- the world doesn't owe you a living, it doesn't owe or anybody else a motherfucking thing, no matter how much that pains your sorry liberal ass, it's the straight truth. And I wish to hell the government would finally pull its head out of collective ass long enough to remember that fact, and take at least one hand out of one of my pockets.

I'm guessing that Jon doesn't believe in the Social Contract.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

I have always felt (but not sure if entirely accurate) that the failure (in the system) of the poor is in direct proportion to the success of the rich. Not in creating a wider gap but in the incentive that all can become richer. The same system that would limit those being poor would also limit those being rich. We cannot have that because of the great employment and economical benefits that wealthy, growing companies can bring.

This is probably the most insightful thing said in the thread so far.

[-Mojo Jojo-]

Originally Posted by Dutch

You think we should all *individually* go to a warzone without organization and fight for the USA? That is unrealistic.

But you think we can do everything else the federal government does without organization? How is that realistic?

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

This is probably the most insightful thing said in the thread so far.

Wow. Thanks. It was inspired by the Adam Smith Trading Co. Wonder of the World.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by -Mojo Jojo-

But you think we can do everything else the federal government does without organization? How is that realistic?

I never said that either.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I'm guessing that Jon doesn't believe in the Social Contact.

And since you have both hands in Jon's pockets, I'm guessing you do.

[-Mojo Jojo-]

Originally Posted by Dutch

And since you have both hands in Jon's pockets, I'm guessing you do.

I really don't think you want to get into Flere's motives for sticking his hands down Jon's pants...

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by -Dutch-

And since you have both hands in Jon's pockets, I'm guessing you do.

Originally Posted by -Mojo Jojo-

I really don't think you want to get into Flere's motives for sticking his hands down Jon's pants...

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by -Mojo Jojo-

I really don't think you want to get into Flere's motives for sticking his hands down Jon's pants...

If flere could do animations, I'm sure it would be something like this.

[Joe Canadian]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And you've managed what exactly ... ???

I wasn't trying to accomplish anything... you on the other hand were, at least as I saw it, trying to illustrate how off-base Jesse_Ewiak's assumptions of all Republicans are which I would have agreed with (you're defence of your POV, not JE's assumption). Instead you insulted others who hold opinions opposite of your own... which is exactly what JE did.

All I'm saying is that while JE had that coming to him for making such a ludacris assumption... replying to him in the same manner as he started this discussion in was IMO pointless. You're better off just ignoring him, or countering his points without stooping to his level.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I didn't start the fire....?

Really, that's all I got.

[Donnie Baker]

Originally Posted by Jesse_Ewiak

Fuck These Fucking Fucks.

Such class....

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Dutch

And since you have both hands in Jon's pockets, I'm guessing you do.

I know you're joking, but you're way off base here. While I don't know how much Jon makes, I'm reasonably sure that based on my salary I share a similar tax burden.

And no offense Jon, but while I'm sure you're a sexy guy, you're not exactly my type.