NFL Week 5 Discussion Thread: Randy Moss Traded to the Vikings

[Logan]

Originally Posted by molson

How about from the Vikings perspective - Brett Favre has to be jerking off in his Wrangler jeans.

Hope he filled his prescription recently.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by molson

I think they had 10-6 written all over them before the season and they still do. They're probably the 4th best team in the AFC, which usually means a fairly early playoff exit, but I'd certainly watch any playoff game hoping for the best. (i.e. I'm not throwing up the white flag)

I actually see them winning the division and may be a 3rd seed in the playoffs depending on the Colts (Jets are over blown). They don't have an easy schedule, but, every team is beatable. They have their bye this weekend and then play Baltimore and San Diego. I think they will have a hard time with Baltimore and will more than likely beat San Diego.

They were a playoff team before Moss was traded and they are still a playoff team without Moss...baring any injuries and if their special teams play can keep up or close to it, like it did in the Miami game, they'll be alright.

[Subby]

"getting" insufferable

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

I assume if there is a lockout the draft will happen with some form of random lottery like the NHL did where the worst teams have better chances of getting top picks but not a guarantee.

I was asking about the 2011 draft - found it in a Yahoo! article. Sounds like the draft will occur, but contracts will not be signed until after a new CBA is in place and they'll be subject to any slotting system agreed to in the CBA.

If there’s a lockout, will there still be a draft next spring?
Yes, but it won’t be business as usual for the teams or for the players they select. With no CBA in place, teams won’t be able to sign players, and those post-draft minicamps will be non-existent. Also, in the absence of a CBA, the league’s ability to generate revenues from the new crop of big-name draftees will be limited. In other words, if you want to purchase one of those sweet new Jake Locker jerseys in the aftermath of his being drafted, you’ll have to buy one without his name on the back of it or wait until a new CBA is signed.

I was also wrong on the conditional draft pick if Moss left as a free agent - apparently as a player with 10+ years of service we would have gotten no better than a 5th in 2012 for him.

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

From 2009: Chung, Tate, Edelman, Vollmer
rookeis this year: McCourty, Gronkowski, Cunningham, Spikes, Hernandez

Add in Pryor/Brace/Kyle Arrington from 2009 (and even Darius Butler who I still think was decent last year and can be good again) and Brandon Deaderick/Woodhead this year.

Originally Posted by JediKooter

I haven't seen this much sorrow and doom and gloom out of the New England area since Teddy Kennedy died.

Without turning this into a politics thread, I'm pretty sure there were a number of people up here ecstatic when Teddy died, and the rest couldn't have been too surprised. Bobby or John will work a lot better for your next Kennedy analogy.


TroyF - He definitely carries water for Belichick and the Patriots organization at times, but I've actually been surprisingly impressed with Bruschi as a writer and analyst. When he starts talking about team chemistry and what its like in the locker room I tend to tune him out (let's just say I've heard from multiple people that he wasn't as universally loved in that locker room as he or the media would have you believe), but when he sticks to football he does a nice job taking complicated schemes and presenting them to the public at large. Plus he obviously still has great contacts and access. Between him, Mike Reiss and even Scott Zolak the Patriots media is much, much better than the local Red Sox media.


Thomkal - I don't think this trade benefits Edelman that much. He's a Welker clone, which would be great if we were still running 4-5 WR shotgun sets or if Welker goes down, but there's no way you can put him on the outside and we're already running a lot more 2 and even 3 TE sets, eliminating the need for more than 1 slot receiver. Edelman probably will bump up to the #3 in 3WR sets for now until Taylor Price is ready or we find another UDFA off the scrap heap, but if you're asking for fantasy purposes he still won't be worth much. All 4 of Tate, Edelman, Gronkowski and Hernandez should get a slight boost off this, but the biggest winner may actually be BJG-E if we turn into more of a power running team like Monday night.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by TroyF

I continue to insist on the acting up theory because there is no other reason to get rid of him. You don't trade superstar players who are giving maximum effort, causing no problems in the locker room and want to be there.

FOR ANY PRICE.

The Pats now have 2 firsts, 2 seconds and 2 thirds in next years draft. Let's say they called up the Steelers and offered them two firsts for Troy Polumalu. What do you think the Steelers would say? They'd hang up the phone. They aren't giving up Troy no matter what and they certainly aren't doing it in the middle of a season when they think they have a chance at a title.

Let's say they called up the Chargers and offered them 2 firsts for Antonio Gates. Again, the phone would be slammed down. I'll say this again, contending teams do not trade pro bowl level players in the middle of the season.

I think the Semour trade was simply too good to pass up. The Pats had played without Seymour for a big part of the previous year. They loved their other defensive lineman and it was before the start of the season. This? The only logical assumption is Randy acting up.

What do I think happened? I posted it in the other thread. I think Randy demanded a trade early. I always thought his comments about being disrespected because he didn't get a contract extension was a first salvo and that it would escalate. I think Randy was moody, pouty and disinterested. I think Beli realized this was going to become a serious problem and is cutting ties before things get truly nasty. I think a lot of this is going to come out over the next few days. (though with how tight Beli keeps the ship, maybe it gets buried)

Does this mean Carmello Anthony has turned into a locker room cancer as well?

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Without turning this into a politics thread, I'm pretty sure there were a number of people up here ecstatic when Teddy died, and the rest couldn't have been too surprised. Bobby or John will work a lot better for your next Kennedy analogy.

Actually it had zero to do with politics and was relating it to more of a regional phenomenon than anything else. Since Marky Mark hasn't died yet, couldn't use him.

[Buccaneer]

Our household has long been fans of all of the New England teams, including my son's favorite teams. I think the reaction is one of surprise at the timing but not the reason. We are still hopeful in a more parity-filled AFC. My pre-season pick was the Ravens vs Packers and anything could happen.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

Actually it had zero to do with politics and was relating it to more of a regional phenomenon than anything else. Since Marky Mark hasn't died yet, couldn't use him.

Yeah, but the point is that Teddy Kennedy wasn't exactly universally beloved. Ted Williams, Johnny Pesky, Bill Rodgers, Stephen King, Bobby Orr, Doug Flutie are the best I can think of, and only King is a non-sports figure (I could add Ben Affleck now, but I doubt he's dying anytime soon). Even political wise I think Tip O'Neil and Billy Bulger have broader affection than Teddy Kennedy did.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Does this mean Carmello Anthony has turned into a locker room cancer as well?

Are you joking?

Of course he is. He wants out, he's made it known internally he wants out. He's "saying" all of the right things, but he's looking at next year and tweeting freakin pictures of himself in a Knicks jersey. Yes, he's a gigantic distraction. Yes, his effort on D has always been questioned and it's hard to believe that will be a strength this year.

Do you think the Nuggets would be trying to trade their first franchise player in 25 years if he WASN'T a problem? Seriously?

He's always been one of my favorite players and I've always defended him, but he's been a gigantic dick over the last few weeks. (I know stories that I will not share here, sorry) The Nuggets still have hope they can convince him to stay. And because of that they've already turned down a terrific deal for him. They are playing with fire here. Unlike the Patriots, they are taking a chance he'll destroy the season for them and then still ditch them for nothing.

I guess you were hoping I'd defend Melo or state the Nuggets were just being smart. Sorry, Melo is acting like a jerk and the Nuggets are being idiots. (what else is new)

[Lathum]

I love DT but this is like watching the tail end of the Houston 500.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Yeah, but the point is that Teddy Kennedy wasn't exactly universally beloved. Ted Williams, Johnny Pesky, Bill Rodgers, Stephen King, Bobby Orr, Doug Flutie are the best I can think of, and only King is a non-sports figure (I could add Ben Affleck now, but I doubt he's dying anytime soon). Even political wise I think Tip O'Neil and Billy Bulger have broader affection than Teddy Kennedy did.

Again, this has absolutely nothing to do with politics other than the person happened to be a politician. I'm playing on the whole 'season is dead/person is dead' thing in addition to it being a New England thing. I'm not from New England, so, the list of names for me to choose from is not going to be as long as it is for someone that is from there or has lived there for a significant amount of time. Work with me here.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

And here it is.

Sources: Randy Moss, New England Patriots quarterbacks coach in heated exchange Monday - ESPN Boston

Receiver Randy Moss and New England Patriots quarterbacks coach Bill O'Brien were involved in a heated exchange at halftime of the team's victory Monday over the Miami Dolphins, according to player sources.
...
The Patriots trailed 7-6 at halftime of the game, and Moss had just one pass thrown in his direction up to that point. He finished without a reception and wasn't thrown to in the second half.
...
Player sources said the halftime exchange was not the first time they had felt friction between Moss and O'Brien, who calls the offensive plays.

So it's not just about being in the last year of the contract, but that the Pats gameplan was de-emphasizing Moss and perhaps depressing his future value.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

And here it is.

Sources: Randy Moss, New England Patriots quarterbacks coach in heated exchange Monday - ESPN Boston



So it's not just about being in the last year of the contract, but that the Pats gameplan was de-emphasizing Moss and perhaps depressing his future value.

I doubt Moss was thinking that all-encompassing. His thought was probably as simple as "I am the best player on the team; why aren't you getting me the ball; if you don't get me the ball, I'll pout and create a scene."

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

And here it is.

Sources: Randy Moss, New England Patriots quarterbacks coach in heated exchange Monday - ESPN Boston



So it's not just about being in the last year of the contract, but that the Pats gameplan was de-emphasizing Moss and perhaps depressing his future value.

So DT and Moss both tuned out at halftime!

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Logan

So DT and Moss both tuned out at halftime!

well played!!!

[Arles]

I think this was a bad move for New England (and a season saver for the Vikes). NE would basically have gotten a compensation pick at the end of the 3rd or 4th if they used Moss and then let him walk at season's end. Now, based on how the Vikings should do with Moss, they lose 12 games of Moss for essentially the same pick.

Even if Moss was "a cancer", he was still going to garner double teams and would have to give some effort as this is a contract year. Giving that up essentially for nothing makes little sense. Now, teams will simply double Welker and be able to blitz more. I like the TEs, but I don't see how a receiving group of Welker, Tate and Edelmann make teams pay.

Unless NE flips another pick for Steve Smith of Carolina or Vincent Jackson, I think the Pats just went from an 11-win team to a 9-win team and probably out of the playoffs. Even better, they get to face a motivated Moss with Minnesota in a couple weeks making what was a very winnable game (home against the mess that was Minnesota) a probable loss. The pats face Baltimore, San Diego (road), Vikings, Browns (road), Pittsburgh (road), Indy and the Jets again over the next few weeks. Without Moss, I can't see them doing better than 2-5 (maybe 3-4) in that stretch. That puts them at 6-7 losses by week 13. I think this move just cost the Pats the season.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

It's a small point, but in the interest of correctness, the Pats would have gotten a 2012 5th Round Pick in compensation.

According to the compensatory pick rules, teams that lose a player with 10 or more NFL seasons under their belt are awarded a pick no higher than the fifth round for that player.

So 2011 3rd vs. 2102 5th.

This happend to the Steelers with Faneca.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

It's a small point, but in the interest of correctness, the Pats would have gotten a 2012 5th Round Pick in compensation.


So 2011 3rd vs. 2102 5th.

This happend to the Steelers with Faneca.

Man, that's a long time to wait for a 5th rounder.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

And here it is.

Sources: Randy Moss, New England Patriots quarterbacks coach in heated exchange Monday - ESPN Boston



So it's not just about being in the last year of the contract, but that the Pats gameplan was de-emphasizing Moss and perhaps depressing his future value.

I wouldn't put it past Beli to ice Moss for his perceived insubordination. As great a coach as he is, he has serious control issues.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

It's a small point, but in the interest of correctness, the Pats would have gotten a 2012 5th Round Pick in compensation.


So 2011 3rd vs. 2102 5th.

This happend to the Steelers with Faneca.

Yeah, that was so dumb. Even dumber was that the Steelers were supposedly unaware of the rule.

[SteveMax58]

Well...this certainly works well for NE if they get Vincent Jackson...but I don't see that happening.

Minnesota certainly got what they needed. As did fantasy football owners.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

It's a small point, but in the interest of correctness, the Pats would have gotten a 2012 5th Round Pick in compensation.


So 2011 3rd vs. 2102 5th.

This happend to the Steelers with Faneca.

That's an interesting rule, good to know. I'm still not sure it's worth killing any chance at winning the division to move up 2 rounds in the draft (esp when you already have 7 picks in the first 4 rounds next season already).

[RendeR]

I find the entire situation highly amusing. Including the implosion of many pats fans around the country.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Hopefully someday the Bengals will have something of importance or value so you can feel what its like for yourself.

[TroyF]

OK, time for some predictions:

What rating will next weeks Monday night game get?

Lets see:

1) New York
2) Mark Sanchez
3) Rex Ryan
4) Brett Favre
5) Randy Moss

Will this be the highest rated ESPN Monday night game of all time?

[Arles]

As an aside, I can relate with a lot of the Pats fans. In GB, we have Ted "All my draft picks will eventually be pro bowl players" Thompson at GM. He hordes draft picks like they are rare pieces of eight. We've had numerous chances in the past 2 seasons to greatly upgrade our RB, OL, LB and DB spot with one more veteran via trade for a mid-round pick that could have pushed the Pack over the top. Instead, the Pack have used 28 draft picks the past 3 seasons.

At some point, making a run should trump the allure of a 3rd or 4th round draft pick (esp when you already have 9-10 other picks).

[molson]

Originally Posted by RendeR

I find the entire situation highly amusing. Including the implosion of many pats fans around the country.

Do you still think Carson Palmer is a better QB than Tom Brady by the way, or has that opinion imploded yet?

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by molson

Do you still think Carson Palmer is a better QB than Tom Brady by the way, or has that opinion imploded yet?

Oh no, this isn't about me.


This is funny. =)

[RendeR]

Oh and the more I listen to Teddy Bruschi speak the bigger idiot I find him to be. Its not like he's saying anything wrong, he just comes across like a clueless fanboy. IMO

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Hopefully someday the Bengals will have something of importance or value so you can feel what its like for yourself.

Now now, stop trying to belittle others. You have enough problems.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Oh no, this isn't about me.

This is funny. =)

As I've said many times in this thread and the other one - Moss was a huge net gain for the Pats in every way. He will be great for the Vikings this year also and is worth the risk of locking up long term. I don't see any implosions going on anywhere (except maybe DT giving up on the season). The sun will rise, the sun will set, the Pats will be competitive, and despite all your trash talking and jackassary - you'll still have to live near Ohio.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Eh, somehow I'll survive.

[Kodos]

DT is the classic fair weather fan.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by molson

As I've said many times in this thread and the other one - Moss was a huge net gain for the Pats in every way. He will be great for the Vikings this year also and is worth the risk of locking up long term. I don't see any implosions going on anywhere (except maybe DT giving up on the season). The sun will rise, the sun will set, the Pats will be competitive, and despite all your trash talking and jackassary - you'll still have to live near Ohio.

What jackassery? I simply said the entire situation amused me. Am I no longer allowed to be amused? Lets get a reality check here.

What trash talking? I've done none.

I don't live near Ohio. Its hours away, though the entire state (including Cleveland) is still a better place to live than the state of MA. (lived there, learned that)

Now if you're done trying to make yourself feel better about yourself, please get back on topic.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RendeR

What jackassery? I simply said the entire situation amused me. Am I no longer allowed to be amused? Lets get a reality check here.

What trash talking? I've done none.

I don't live near Ohio. Its hours away, though the entire state (including Cleveland) is still a better place to live than the state of MA. (lived there, learned that)

Now if you're done trying to make yourself feel better about yourself, please get back on topic.

You know, for my own reasons, I don't want to live in MA again either. The difference is I don't hold a weird, trollish grudge against everything associated with the state that consumes me at all times. So it's true, I relied a little more on your past actions with with the jackass and trash talking comments, but I certainly stand by them, and you're clearly trying to go in that direction here, though a bit more subtly. So maybe you're making progress.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Thomkal - I don't think this trade benefits Edelman that much. He's a Welker clone, which would be great if we were still running 4-5 WR shotgun sets or if Welker goes down, but there's no way you can put him on the outside and we're already running a lot more 2 and even 3 TE sets, eliminating the need for more than 1 slot receiver. Edelman probably will bump up to the #3 in 3WR sets for now until Taylor Price is ready or we find another UDFA off the scrap heap, but if you're asking for fantasy purposes he still won't be worth much. All 4 of Tate, Edelman, Gronkowski and Hernandez should get a slight boost off this, but the biggest winner may actually be BJG-E if we turn into more of a power running team like Monday night.

Tend to agree with you here for Edelman can't really see him as more than a 3WR now, but think it would be a lot of fun to see him and Welker on the field a lot together. I think he's a Welker in the making. (and I don't have any fantasy teams this year. )

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by molson

You know, for my own reasons, I don't want to live in MA again either. The difference is I don't hold a weird, trollish grudge against everything associated with the state that consumes me at all times. So it's true, I relied a little more on your past actions with with the jackass and trash talking comments, but I certainly stand by them, and you're clearly trying to go in that direction here, though a bit more subtly. So maybe you're making progress.

Or maybe you hold a grudge far stronger than you think.

I was simply stating my amusement. You created everything else.


Now as for my hatred of MA, its very real. I think its telling that in my 40+ years I've lived all over this country, from the northeast(PA 20 yrs, NY 6 Yrs, MA 4 Yrs), to the south (FL 1 Yr, NC 1 YR), to the west coast (CA-San Diego 4 Yrs, CA-San Francisco 3YRs).

In ALL of those places I found positive things. And still of ALL of those places none, save MA made me more bitter, angry and hateful. I still love all the other sites. but in 4 years MA turned into an evil black inkspot in the pages of my life.

Why? its really hard to say. The people were rude self absorbed and spiteful. The Government was an utter wasteland of incompetence, Just the entire sense of "home and Community" just didn't exist there.

I'd be willing to live in any of my previous "homes" other than MA. maybe its irrational, maybe I'm insne, but then again. I've got a pretty solid sample size of other places to live and the only one that affected me this way is MA.

Perhaps there is something to that? YMMV


Now, les get back to listening to ESPN spend the entire week talking about nothing more than the Moss trade.

Like they've had anything new to say since the 3rd repetition of the "breaking news story". *Yawn*

[jbergey22]

It feels like Chistmas in Minnesota today. Everyone is so exciting to have their long lost son back.

I always dreamt about having AP and Moss on the same field together. We will now have to see how teams are going about stopping these two. I am sure defensive cordinators in the NFC North couldnt sleep last night.

[Thomkal]

God help my Cards, undrafted rookie Max Hall gets the start against New Orleans. He can't do any worse than Derek Anderson...can he?...can he?

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

God help my Cards, undrafted rookie Max Hall gets the start against New Orleans. He can't do any worse than Derek Anderson...can he?...can he?

I wouldnt think so. Otherwise I wouldnt plan on winning any more games this year

[molson]

Originally Posted by RendeR

...

Fair enough, but let me maybe suggest that it's not helpful to immediately antagonize anyone you come in contact with, in real life or online, who happened to be born in the northeast, or lived there at some point in their life, because there's a SLIGHT possibility that they're not among the group that beat you up and stole your lunch money or whatever else happened there. And if you treat everyone like they ran over your cat (and that's really what you do, at least with your online personna) you're not going to get the best reaction, and your weird grudge will just perpetuate itself and continue.

Just my thought. Moving along....

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I doubt Moss was thinking that all-encompassing. His thought was probably as simple as "I am the best player on the team; why aren't you getting me the ball; if you don't get me the ball, I'll pout and create a scene."

I realize I'm a total Moss fanboy at this point, but maybe he had a point. We had 6 points and were being outgained 190-138 at the time, finished with 20 points on offense and were outgained 400-265. Yeah, some of that 2nd half disparity is due to the Dolphins getting more possessions and our playing prevent, but we didn't look good 1st half either. Timeline here - Moss is firing up the team on the sidelines during pregame, our offense looks bad, averaging less than 4 yards per play and the only throw to Moss is when Brady makes a silent audible (grabbing the facemask for the fake spike - which I thought was dumb. Should have taken the TO immediately and thrown into the end zone twice.) Then we're mad because he wants the ball more and yells at the Offensive Coordinator?

Maybe I'm wrong and he was yelling about something else, but if he thought the offense would work better if he was thrown the ball more I don't think his being vocal about it is a particularly bad thing.

Originally Posted by Thomkal

Tend to agree with you here for Edelman can't really see him as more than a 3WR now, but think it would be a lot of fun to see him and Welker on the field a lot together. I think he's a Welker in the making. (and I don't have any fantasy teams this year. )

I think he's a Welker in the making, but in addition to thinking that particular player is overrated, they both run pretty much the same routes. So on the one hand, Edelman was/is the perfect 4th/5th WR because he could jump in and replace Welker in the event of an injury, but on the other their similar skillset means that putting both out there at the same time doesn't add a different dimension. Take personalities out of it and Randy Moss/Terrell Owens still wouldn't be a very good fit despite being the #1/#2 receivers of the past decade - much better to pair either with an underneath possession receiver.

[BishopMVP]

Out of curiosity Render, which towns in Mass did you live in?

[Logan]

The one that produced the biggest Masshole, apparently...

[remper]

So what I heard last is that Cutler WILL play on Sunday. I think that's a mistake... Anyone hear any other info? I'd sit him until the offensive line shows some kind of stability... and ability. Let Todd Collins earn his money this year, and get his head taken off.

[stevew]

Bears are doing dumbness, and are putting my fantasy season in jeopardy by throwing Cutler out there.

Anyways, I think that a concussion should be a 1 game minimum break regardless of being cleared by team doctors. And maybe we'll give you a provisional roster spot to replace the player for one week.

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by molson

How about from the Vikings perspective - Brett Favre has to be jerking off in his Wrangler jeans.

Just think, now we get to add Moss into the "Will Favre retire?" mix. Both their contracts end at the end of this year. Let's say the Vikings don't win it this year. What happens to Moss when Favre doesn't return? If the QB doesn't make Moss happy, bye bye Moss.

[Lathum]

I lived in Dallas for a time and absolutely hated it. Was just not my cup of tea, the job I took didn't work out, every girl I dated it didn't work out, I was far from my family, didn't have much money, and generally hated everything about it. Was by far one of lifes worst stretches.

But I hold no grudge against the state of Texas or the city of Dallas, to hold a grudge against a whole section of the country or blame it for your issues is just plain stupid.

[k0ruptr]

Yes there should be a medical rule in place that if a concussion happens, that player has to sit out a minimum of one week. for the safety of the player if nothing else.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

Originally Posted by k0ruptr

Yes there should be a medical rule in place that if a concussion happens, that player has to sit out a minimum of one week. for the safety of the player if nothing else.

it wasn't a concussion was it? i thought it was 'concussion like symptoms' which i interpreted as cutlerspeak for 'fuck you. my head hurts. i'm not going back out there.'