2012 NFL Regular Season - Week 3: Can the Ravens avenge their AFC Championship loss?

[Sun Tzu]

G-Men!

[Masked]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

True. And I don't want people to over-read what I am saying. I don't think that NFL Films will be destroying the tapes or anything. It's more of just a feeling thing. Some years feel more real than others. So far, this season has felt just kinda like . . . meh. Not really real.

I suspect this may be due in part to the team that you (and I) care most about.

[tucker rocky]

SeanLeeGoldenTate.jpg

Looks clean.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

But, really, my totally subjective feelings should not bring anyone down. If your team is 2-0 and kicking serious ass, then go for it. Enjoy the next four months, and good luck vanquishing your enemies!

I get what you're saying, but for me it has already been going for two years. Last year felt weird coming off of the lockout. So it's like it is endless.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

They're doing the best they can, and as far as I'm concerned, if you hadn't told me they were replacements, I wouldn't have been able to tell the difference.

I disagree. It isn't even the fact that the get the call correct usually or that they haven't cost anyone a game with a bad call/ no call.

It's the way they conduct themselves. They look lost at times and disrupt the flow of the game.

It's like someone who has studies trial law their whole life but never actually been in a courtroom, you would immediately be able to tell them apart from a seasoned prosecutor.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

G-Men!

The short week is really going to hurt. At least 4 guys are going to be out who may have started a normal week

[Sun Tzu]

I see where you're coming from, but I could really care less about how they "look" when making the correct call. If this thing sticks, that lost look will eventually fade.

[Solecismic]

A fair assessment of how the refs are doing so far:

Stats show same number of flags with replacement refs, longer games - NFL - CBSSports.com News, Rumors, Scores, Stats, Fantasy

It is, to me, how they look. That one referee is a New Orleans fan and another referee has LeSean McCoy on his fantasy team.

It's five-minute delays while they discuss a play that ordinarily wouldn't be discussed.

It's the incessant whining from the announcers, who feel it's the safe decision to come out against the replacement refs.

As far as the actual officiating goes, I think it's a fair product out there. Interference penalties and non-penalties are often going to be controversial. Holding is always going to be hit-or-miss whether it's caught.

My feeling right now is that there isn't any issue here that isn't fixable with the replacement refs. It's not like the NFL is trying to sell us Joe Blow at running back for a team from Philadelphia rather than the real McCoy.

I watch for the players and the teams. The refs are just part of the overall production.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Nah...every year there's some call that everyone get's all up in arms about. Whether it's Vinny Testeverde's helmet crossing the goal line, or Philip Rivers "throwing" a fumble. Shit happens, and the refs get it wrong. The NFL rolls along, and fans have something to bicker about.

Do I have to go on a rant again?

Have you actually watched the games?

This is not about a bad call here, a bad call there.

The games are completely and totally mismanaged. Complete inaccurate enforcement of the rules, long delays while some outside presence has to tell them the rules were not enforced correctly (basic rules), unable to control the game (fighting, etc)...

All of that is on top of your typical "wrong call" stuff.

People dismissing this as "oh, regular officials get stuff wrong too" are either not watching games or not paying attention.

[stevew]

I'll throw the fake refs under the bus if they still suck in week 7 or 8(after most have been out there 10 times). I'm hoping they will make a collective step forward over the next few weeks, it's gotta be intimidating to enter a new situation like this with so much scrutiny.

And I'm also annoyed at the constant harping by the media and players in regards to the officiating.

[Ksyrup]

I keep coming back to some of the basics I've seen them miss, particularly ball spots. I know it's an inexact science, but some of their spots aren't even close. And not knowing/applying the right rules is inexcusable. The play in the Jets/Steelers game where they were reviewing a fumble that occurred 3 seconds after the player's knee was down and they upheld the fumble ruling... how does that happen? Why is Jim Nantz schooling the officials from the booth?

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by stevew

I'll throw the fake refs under the bus if they still suck in week 7 or 8(after most have been out there 10 times). I'm hoping they will make a collective step forward over the next few weeks, it's gotta be intimidating to enter a new situation like this with so much scrutiny.

And I'm also annoyed at the constant harping by the media and players in regards to the officiating.

This isn't directly about the replacements. They are just the implement by which the NFL has failed on this issue. I don't expect non-professionals to be as good as the guys who are employed to officiate NFL games normally. This is bitching about their inferior performance as a message to the NFL that it's not acceptable to put a professional product on the field and have the games conducted by non-professionals.

[stevew]

I think crushing a ref union is worth the fight. Bad calls are a part of all sports. The fact that there is no obvious accountability is a problem. I'm hoping MLB and the NBA(worst refs) will use the NFL's model and get rid of their crews as well.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

technology could eliminate the refs completely. marking the ball is the most ridiculously arbitrary thing in sports. but i have no idea what eye in the sky refereeing would do to the game.

[bronconick]

The NFL probably sees the utter clusterfuck that MLB umpiring is because the league routinely rolls over having made it impossible to get rid of guys like Joe West and Angel Hernandez and figured they're better off doing this now.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by tucker rocky

Attachment 4236

Looks clean.

Top of the hemlet is plowing into the chin, that's still a blow to the head. Don't lead with the helmet, period.

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by wade moore

People dismissing this as "oh, regular officials get stuff wrong too" are either not watching games or not paying attention.

I think it's safe to say that everyone here watches the games, and pays attention while doing so. I think it's also safe to say that most folks that have a different opinion than you also do both. Just because I'm seeing something you're not, doesn't mean I'm not paying attention. In fact, it's equally likely that I'm actually more astute at catching the little things than you, and I'm more "right" than you.

My point here being, there's no need to try to downplay someone else's opinion to make yourself feel more in the right about guys officiating an NFL game. I think they're doing fine, you don't. Great. I have my reasons, and you do too. Great.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

I think it's safe to say that everyone here watches the games, and pays attention while doing so. I think it's also safe to say that most folks that have a different opinion than you also do both. Just because I'm seeing something you're not, doesn't mean I'm not paying attention. In fact, it's equally likely that I'm actually more astute at catching the little things than you, and I'm more "right" than you.

My point here being, there's no need to try to downplay someone else's opinion to make yourself feel more in the right about guys officiating an NFL game. I think they're doing fine, you don't. Great. I have my reasons, and you do too. Great.

You are obviously entitled to your opinion, but if you don't realize you are in the minority thinking they are doing fine then you are pretty out of touch.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by stevew

I'll throw the fake refs under the bus if they still suck in week 7 or 8(after most have been out there 10 times). I'm hoping they will make a collective step forward over the next few weeks, it's gotta be intimidating to enter a new situation like this with so much scrutiny.

And I'm also annoyed at the constant harping by the media and players in regards to the officiating.

I agree. I think we can muddle through a few weeks while these guys get up to speed and gain some confidence. I'd be suprised if this was a story by the end of the season (only to make a media comeback in playoffs).

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by Lathum

You are obviously entitled to your opinion, but if you don't realize you are in the minority thinking they are doing fine then you are pretty out of touch.

I could care less if I'm in the minority or not. It seems to me that there are a good handful of people that don't like how they are doing (in the media) that are hell-bent on standing on top of the highest mountain they can find, and screaming their opinion at the top of their lungs.

Meanwhile, those that share my opinion (for the most part) prefer to go the opposite route.

Example: Yesterday I was listening to Minnesota Sports Talk Radio, and the DJ spent his first hour explaining why he thought the replacement refs were doing their jobs just fine. Little to no screaming (for a DJ, of course), and zero exaggeration for exaggeration sake. Meanwhile, you can go to any major news source, and you'll find at least one person that's absolutely dying to get across their opinion on how beyond terrible these guys are.

It just gives the sensationalizing media something to talk about. They're loving this...every second of it. Then, when/if the old refs come back, they'll have something else to gab about.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

i think a lot of the hyper criticism is more about principle than actual on field stuff. a multi billion dollar organization squeezing a union over a few million dollars

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

I think it's safe to say that everyone here watches the games, and pays attention while doing so. I think it's also safe to say that most folks that have a different opinion than you also do both. Just because I'm seeing something you're not, doesn't mean I'm not paying attention. In fact, it's equally likely that I'm actually more astute at catching the little things than you, and I'm more "right" than you.

My point here being, there's no need to try to downplay someone else's opinion to make yourself feel more in the right about guys officiating an NFL game. I think they're doing fine, you don't. Great. I have my reasons, and you do too. Great.

It wouldn't be FOFC unless you were belittled for your differing opinion.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Lathum

You are obviously entitled to your opinion, but if you don't realize you are in the minority thinking they are doing fine then you are pretty out of touch.

I wouldn't go so far as to say the replacement officials are doing a "fine" job. I just don't think they're quite as horrible as people think they are. Without a dobut that first half (the first quarter, in particular) on the Monday night game was attrocious. It was a complete debacle. The refs totally lost control of that game.

Still, I have watched NFL games were the regular refs have lost control of games too. I remember, quite well, a 2005 game between the Ravens and the Lions (I remember it because it was one of the few games the Lions actually won during that era). That game was completely out of control. It was madness.

I also remember a game - not sure which teams - in which one team was awarded 5 downs, instead of 4.

There have been some pretty bad calls and non-calls. And the replacement officials are definitely a step (probably quite a few) below the regular officials, but I just don't think it's quite the traveshamockery that many people are making it out to be.

People largely see what they expect/want to see.

[Sun Tzu]

49ers' Tarell Brown Fined More Than $5K For Wrong Undergarment Sleeves - SB Nation Bay Area

NFL thinks about fining Alex Smith $15K for wearing SF Giants hat - CBSSports.com


wat

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

49ers' Tarell Brown Fined More Than $5K For Wrong Undergarment Sleeves - SB Nation Bay Area

NFL thinks about fining Alex Smith $15K for wearing SF Giants hat - CBSSports.com


wat

This is nothing new. They have been making uniform violations for years and years. Anything from bandanas to wrong color shoes.

[Ksyrup]

Remember the whole Mike Nolan wants to wear a suit fiasco?

[Sun Tzu]

Yeah, well I mean, I'm aware of the odd fines they've imposed, but the Alex Smith thing especially comes off as a bit "wtf" ish.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

I wouldn't go so far as to say the replacement officials are doing a "fine" job. I just don't think they're quite as horrible as people think they are. Without a dobut that first half (the first quarter, in particular) on the Monday night game was attrocious. It was a complete debacle. The refs totally lost control of that game.

Still, I have watched NFL games were the regular refs have lost control of games too. I remember, quite well, a 2005 game between the Ravens and the Lions (I remember it because it was one of the few games the Lions actually won during that era). That game was completely out of control. It was madness.

I also remember a game - not sure which teams - in which one team was awarded 5 downs, instead of 4.

There have been some pretty bad calls and non-calls. And the replacement officials are definitely a step (probably quite a few) below the regular officials, but I just don't think it's quite the traveshamockery that many people are making it out to be.

People largely see what they expect/want to see.

I think that's a large part of it.

There have been missed calls, but since it's been 7 months since seeing the "real" refs call a game, all comparisons are based on memory. We have no idea how Ed Hochuli would have called the same play, but our bias is he would have done it better.

What should happen is, get the NHL refs, currently sitting around with the lockout, onto the football field. After 2 weeks, people will be crying for the NFL replacement officials to come back.

[Easy Mac]

SKINNER: Well, I was wrong. The lizards are a godsend.

LISA: But isn't that a bit short-sighted? What happens when we're overrun by lizards?

SKINNER: No problem. We simply unleash wave after wave of Chinese needle snakes. They'll wipe out the lizards.

LISA: But aren't the snakes even worse?

SKINNER: Yes, but we're prepared for that. We've lined up a fabulous type of gorilla that thrives on snake meat.

LISA: But then we're stuck with gorillas!

SKINNER: No, that's the beautiful part. When wintertime rolls around, the gorillas simply freeze to death.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

A fair assessment of how the refs are doing so far:

Stats show same number of flags with replacement refs, longer games - NFL - CBSSports.com News, Rumors, Scores, Stats, Fantasy

It is, to me, how they look. That one referee is a New Orleans fan and another referee has LeSean McCoy on his fantasy team.

It's five-minute delays while they discuss a play that ordinarily wouldn't be discussed.

It's the incessant whining from the announcers, who feel it's the safe decision to come out against the replacement refs.

As far as the actual officiating goes, I think it's a fair product out there. Interference penalties and non-penalties are often going to be controversial. Holding is always going to be hit-or-miss whether it's caught.

My feeling right now is that there isn't any issue here that isn't fixable with the replacement refs. It's not like the NFL is trying to sell us Joe Blow at running back for a team from Philadelphia rather than the real McCoy.

I watch for the players and the teams. The refs are just part of the overall production.

This might be a case of overall numbers not necessarily telling the whole story.: Replacement Referees and Home Field Advantage: It’s Been Almost Eight Points a Game Through Two Weeks | The Big Lead

My interest was piqued, though, by a couple of observations by Chase Stuart of Football Perspective this week. First, he notes that 14 of the 16 home teams won this week, the first time since the league expanded in 2002 that many home teams have won. Second is the discrepancy in penalties called on the road and home teams through two weeks of these replacement officials.

So far this season, there have been 231 penalties against visiting teams and only 188 penalties against the hosts. That ratio — road teams having to deal with 23% more penalties — is far out of line with historical data, which informs us that road teams had 7% more penalties enforced against them than home teams from 2000 to 2011.

[Sun Tzu]

In all fairness, the statistic you just showed covers 11 years, which includes many ups and downs, I'm sure. We're comparing those statistics with three weeks worth of stats, which is a bit overblown, if you ask me.

[gstelmack]

Where were those home-team-biased refs when the Pats lost to the Cards?

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Where were those home-team-biased refs when the Pats lost to the Cards?

I paid them off.

[Ksyrup]

Things like this is why the internet was created:

All 32 NFL Quarterbacks & Their Muppet Doppelgangers

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Things like this is why the internet was created:

All 32 NFL Quarterbacks & Their Muppet Doppelgangers

I give full credit to Al Gore on this one.

[Masked]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Yeah, well I mean, I'm aware of the odd fines they've imposed, but the Alex Smith thing especially comes off as a bit "wtf" ish.

Makes perfect sense to me. He should be fined, and if he does it again he should be fined two or three times as much or even suspended. An apparel company has paid the NFL a very large amount of money for players to where their hats in interviews. That money goes to the owners and ultimately the players. The players via their union have agreed to abide by these contracts because it makes them more money. If players start violating the terms of the agreements, the sponsors will be willing to play less money for these contracts which hurts the players employer and ultimately the player.

As with most firms, the employer sets certain codes of conduct for the workplace which includes a dress code. The players can violate those workplace rules, but they will face consequences.

[Sun Tzu]

Sure.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Masked

Makes perfect sense to me. He should be fined, and if he does it again he should be fined two or three times as much or even suspended. An apparel company has paid the NFL a very large amount of money for players to where their hats in interviews. That money goes to the owners and ultimately the players. The players via their union have agreed to abide by these contracts because it makes them more money. If players start violating the terms of the agreements, the sponsors will be willing to play less money for these contracts which hurts the players employer and ultimately the player.

As with most firms, the employer sets certain codes of conduct for the workplace which includes a dress code. The players can violate those workplace rules, but they will face consequences.

This rationale seems like the complete opposite you would expect from a guy named "Masked".

[CU Tiger]

I think the ref thing is interesting largely because of the jump from "they are doing a bad job" to "they are incapable of doing a good job"

Let's ignore the position for a moment that they are doing a fine job. Lets focus only on the other extreme.
Remember these refs did not spend the off season studying up on new rules or NFL rules at all, they were preparing for life calling games in the MAC.
Next there was no indoctrination period. Normally when a new ref "graduates" to NFL he joins a team with 5-6 other seasoned guys. Who can gradually teach him the ropes, and make the transition easier. Even little things like stadium nuances and such..these refs are learning this all on the fly without any assistance.

I think if we ride this out by years end we will have comparable performance to what we had last year and not have the union to deal with anymore. Lets be honest, any employee in America who makes $100k/yr and works 2.5 days a week 26 weeks a year, really doesn't need a lot of protecting from the big bad employer..unless vices, needles, jumper cables and testicles are combined behind the scenes that we are unaware of... and even then they have the option of quitting.

[RendeR]

Ok ELi Manning's doppelganger cracked me up....

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Ok ELi Manning's doppelganger cracked me up....

I LOLed

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

I could care less if I'm in the minority or not. It seems to me that there are a good handful of people that don't like how they are doing (in the media) that are hell-bent on standing on top of the highest mountain they can find, and screaming their opinion at the top of their lungs.

Meanwhile, those that share my opinion (for the most part) prefer to go the opposite route.

Example: Yesterday I was listening to Minnesota Sports Talk Radio, and the DJ spent his first hour explaining why he thought the replacement refs were doing their jobs just fine. Little to no screaming (for a DJ, of course), and zero exaggeration for exaggeration sake. Meanwhile, you can go to any major news source, and you'll find at least one person that's absolutely dying to get across their opinion on how beyond terrible these guys are.

It just gives the sensationalizing media something to talk about. They're loving this...every second of it. Then, when/if the old refs come back, they'll have something else to gab about.

Originally Posted by spleen1015

It wouldn't be FOFC unless you were belittled for your differing opinion.

People saying the refs are fine keeping throwing this "opinion" word out there. This is not an "opinion" thing. The refs are or are not doing their jobs as well as the real refs.

The are simply not doing it as well as the real refs and it is impacting games. This is simply not opinion based. This is not "does broccoli taste good?"

[Danny]

I can honestly say the replacement refs had absolutely no impact on the Raiders losing both of their games so far.

[Scoobz0202]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

49ers' Tarell Brown Fined More Than $5K For Wrong Undergarment Sleeves - SB Nation Bay Area

NFL thinks about fining Alex Smith $15K for wearing SF Giants hat - CBSSports.com


wat

[Sun Tzu]

SUSPEND THAT MAN.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

49ers' Tarell Brown Fined More Than $5K For Wrong Undergarment Sleeves - SB Nation Bay Area

an excerpt of the letter the leage sent to Brown

"Dear Tarell: During the Detroit Lions-San Francisco 49ers game on September 16, 2012, you were in violation of the NFL Uniform and Equipment Rules."

Apparently, the big issue is that Brown was wearing a red undershirt as opposed to a white undershirt, when the Niners have a designated color of white for their undershirt. $5,250 is the amount of the fine the NFL has issued.

The league should take a zero tolerance policy here and force San Fran to forfeit the game. There is no excuse for such a blatant violation of league rules.

[Ksyrup]

Three plays in, refs already delaying the game not understanding how to enforce a simple penalty (or understand the team might want to take the result of the play).

[JediKooter]

One of the biggest problems I've seen with the replacement refs is, they are not blowing the whistle in a timely fashion. Someone is going to get seriously hurt if they don't work on that. There's been guys where their forward progress has been stopped a long time ago and it takes forever for the whistle.

[Ksyrup]

And then they spot the ball where he was tackled, not where his forward progress was.

[Lathum]

Giants may have found a solution to their running issues. That sound you here is Bradshaws starting spot going down the drain