Terri Schiavo

[Flasch186]

I think Tom De Lay has truly risen above the fray on this one....I mean he was secretly taped in his office comparing his ethics investigations to this. Saying that its the same when people want to investigate him as them wanting to let her die. Honestly, Republicans everywhere should toss this guy, he is embarassing. At Least I believe that Bush and the admin believe what they're doing is right. This guy is just a con artist.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

these things are easy to do when you own loved one isn't suddenly in a vegetative state with no ability to survive on their own without machines. very easy to have these vigils. meanwhile troops are STILL dying over in Iraq and everyone is now "ho-hum...that's so 2004 ".

I am thinking the Republicans love the idea of society being distracted by this. Maybe that is why they are feeding the frenzy? It helps them to distract people away from the Social Security debate that is losing traction and the situation in Iraq that is still a bit of a blackeye.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Bingo. I think it was Stephanie Miller I was listening to ... well, I'll never make that mistake again.

Stephanie Miller? Is that the woman who once had her own TV talk show? If it is who I am thinking of, she was a cute one.

[jerem77]

Parents want to keep her alive-End of story.
If it were a case of "Family v Pro-Lifers" it would be different, but this is "Family v Family" and "Life v Death." If the husband wants her dead than remove him from all financial and legal responsibility. Let the parents take care of her. He wants her dead to cover up something he has done.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by jerem77

Parents want to keep her alive-End of story.
If it were a case of "Family v Pro-Lifers" it would be different, but this is "Family v Family" and "Life v Death." If the husband wants her dead than remove him from all financial and legal responsibility. Let the parents take care of her. He wants her dead to cover up something he has done.

And after all this time...nobody has found any evidence of that and no court has removed that authority from him. If you have such definitive information and legal standing, why aren't you down there resolving this situation for everyone? Clearly you know more about it than the legal authorities that have been involved for years at this point.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

Maybe if they save Terri's life, God won't let the terrorists attack us again. Now that society has taken steps to stamp down Gay rights, and saves a high profile life, God will bless us again and protect us from terrorism. At least that is what I have learned from Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell.

i mean, i really like how an issue such as a FUCKING WAR makes the transition from front page news to page 4 filler. when did us being involved in a war suddenly get removed off the list of national agenda? i understand items such as, oh i don't know, a country identified as part of an axis of evil refusing to halt its nuclear weapons program is hard to sell newspapers, but does this Schiavo nonsense really need this much attention.

i hate knowing Terri Schiavo's name. i hate having to force myself to not think about it. i hate how we spend a week on one issue (either real issue or otherwise) and move on to something else, with no closure from the first issue.

did Congress decide what they accomplished with their steoird hearings? with all the oom-pa-pa last week you'd think there'd be an end-result. how could something that, in the loosely paraphrased words of one of the politicians, would be a national tragedy if the problem wasn't fixed, now all of a sudden not even show up in the papers? is it just me, or is anyone else seeing the ADD here?

throw Terri Schiavo in the same room as Chandra Levi, Gary Condit and Elian Gonzalez and any other make-believe issue and blow them up.

watch, when this Schiavo thing dies down (no pun intended, wocka wocka) another Kennedy will do something stupid for us to keep ourselves occupied with until the next "hot-topic".

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

I am thinking the Republicans love the idea of society being distracted by this. Maybe that is why they are feeding the frenzy? It helps them to distract people away from the Social Security debate that is losing traction and the situation in Iraq that is still a bit of a blackeye.

Ding Ding Ding... I think we may have a winner!

[rkmsuf]

He wants her dead to cover up something he has done.

uh ok.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

I am thinking the Republicans love the idea of society being distracted by this. Maybe that is why they are feeding the frenzy? It helps them to distract people away from the Social Security debate that is losing traction and the situation in Iraq that is still a bit of a blackeye.

i'm hitting the gong - DING DING DING, Tekneek.

i forgot the SS thing. you see, it fucking worked. when did we decide we didn't have to talk about SS anymore, as if this issue has been resolved or something...?

good example.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by jerem77

Parents want to keep her alive-End of story.
If it were a case of "Family v Pro-Lifers" it would be different, but this is "Family v Family" and "Life v Death." If the husband wants her dead than remove him from all financial and legal responsibility. Let the parents take care of her. He wants her dead to cover up something he has done.

you've seen too many movies.

[Masked]

I believe Terri's wishes should be honoured and the feeding tube should be removed. Based on what I know from media reports of her condition, I strongly believe that she has no chance of recovery. Her condition got steadily worse despite a variety of therapies in the years after her collapse.

One thing about this case that I find interesting is how little the public understands about the brain. The brain is very fragile and has a very limited ability to repair itself. Recovery from a trauma is generally best described as compensation rather than a true healing. Finally, life is much more than a beating heart and breathing.

[KWhit]

HA, you certainly have a way with words. Although I do agree with your assessment that there are certainly more important things for us to be debating.

[hhiipp]

I'm on the HA bandwagon. Bury her and her non-issue.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

you've seen too many movies.

i agree....he waits 7 years and turns over all medical records to hide something. nice.

[hhiipp]

Saving Terri
Featuring Hatcher Flaschen as Michael Shiavo

[jerem77]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

And after all this time...nobody has found any evidence of that and no court has removed that authority from him. If you have such definitive information and legal standing, why aren't you down there resolving this situation for everyone? Clearly you know more about it than the legal authorities that have been involved for years at this point.

My stance has nothing to do with "Know the Legal system." The husband doesn't want to be removed as guardian because he wants her dead. Almost every case like this that I have seen involved the family wanting to let a family member die vs. those in society who want to fight for life. In this case there are parents who don't want to give up hope vs. a husband who got excited everytime he thought she was getting sick and might die.

I have read people on here say that the parents need to let go and that they are the selfish ones. I think that it is incredibly arrogant of anyone to tell a parent they should let their child die. We can all sit back and say we would let her go, but you never know untill you are in that situation. Most parents would do anything for a dying child , including giving their own life to save them. If the parents want to keep her alive that should be their right. They should be applauded for fighting for their daugters life not scorned.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by hhiipp

Saving Terri
Featuring Hatcher Flaschen as Michael Shiavo

boy talk about miscast - i dont look anything like him....plus how can i work in an underpants line in this?

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by jerem77

My stance has nothing to do with "Know the Legal system." The husband doesn't want to be removed as guardian because he wants her dead. Almost every case like this that I have seen involved the family wanting to let a family member die vs. those in society who want to fight for life. In this case there are parents who don't want to give up hope vs. a husband who got excited everytime he thought she was getting sick and might die.

I have read people on here say that the parents need to let go and that they are the selfish ones. I think that it is incredibly arrogant of anyone to tell a parent they should let their child die. We can all sit back and say we would let her go, but you never know untill you are in that situation. Most parents would do anything for a dying child , including giving their own life to save them. If the parents want to keep her alive that should be their right. They should be applauded for fighting for their daugters life not scorned.

but what about what Terri said she wanted to michale AND family members...does that count?

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by jerem77

Almost every case like this that I have seen involved the family wanting to let a family member die vs. those in society who want to fight for life.

Then you haven't been reading the Schiavo threads carefully enough. There are several cases where the opposite is going on--the family wants to extend the care of a loved one. The difference in these other cases is that these families lack the means to pay the medical costs associated with keeping their loved one alive.

It is difficult for the conservatives to credibly argue the Schiavo case since, in similar cases, the conundrum (for Republicans, anyway) of "choosing life" versus "government subsidizing health care" often arises. The fact that the Republican distaste of the latter has usually trumped the former in other cases, the new-found conservative support of Schiavo's parents rests on shaky ground.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by jerem77

In this case there are parents who don't want to give up hope vs. a husband who got excited everytime he thought she was getting sick and might die.

Do more than make a baseless accusation, please. I would like to see this evidence that has you convinced. Maybe it will convince me that you are right.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

Do more than make a baseless accusation, please. I would like to see this evidence that has you convinced. Maybe it will convince me that you are right.

There's hope. I was close to having you believe Dan Marino sucks.

[duckman]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

sometimes i really hate humans.

You stole my life slogan!

[Tigercat]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

I think Tom De Lay has truly risen above the fray on this one....I mean he was secretly taped in his office comparing his ethics investigations to this. Saying that its the same when people want to investigate him as them wanting to let her die. Honestly, Republicans everywhere should toss this guy, he is embarassing. At Least I believe that Bush and the admin believe what they're doing is right. This guy is just a con artist.

Unforunately in a bi-polar nation where each side believes in its own flavor of self-righteousness, a man like Tom Delay finds a comfy home. I always enjoyed the mental image of him as a former pest control man, when in reality he seems to be the unkillable cockroach.

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by jerem77

In this case there are parents who don't want to give up hope vs. a husband who got excited everytime he thought she was getting sick and might die.

No, you have that wrong. In this case, there are media whore parents who want the husband out of the way in order to collect on their daughter's money when she eventually passes away vs. a saint of a husband who only wants to respect his wife's wishes.


(Wow...It's fun making over-sensationalized statements that barely resemble fact!!)

If the parents want to keep her alive that should be their right.

It would be more respectful to Terri if they followed their daughter's wishes.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

There's hope. I was close to having you believe Dan Marino sucks.

You provided such wonderful evidence to back up your claim, too. When you do find the evidence, I'm still willing to give it a chance.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

You provided such wonderful evidence to back up your claim, too. When you do find the evidence, I'm still willing to give it a chance.

I felt like I made a very strong case. At least as strong as Cochrane and F.Lee Bailey.

[Huckleberry]

http://jb-williams.com/ts-report-12-03.htm

Originally Posted by Guardian Ad Litem Jay Wolfson

Proceedings concluded that there was no basis for the removal of Michael as Guardian Further, it was determined that he had been very aggressive and attentive in his care of Theresa. His demanding concern for her well being and meticulous care by the nursing home earned him the characterization by the administrator as "a nursing home administrator's nightmare". It is notable that through more than thirteen years after Theresa's collapse, she has never had a bedsore.

[Radii]

It is not easy to look at the case from a legal side instead of an emotional side, but legally it seems very very clear to me that the correct answer is to let her die. Numerous appeals courts have now found that there is no merit to any claims the parents are making to keep her alive and remove the husband from custody. Case closed. Anything else IMO is trying to make up the laws as you go and is not the way this works...

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Radii

It is not easy to look at the case from a legal side instead of an emotional side, but legally it seems very very clear to me that the correct answer is to let her die. Numerous appeals courts have now found that there is no merit to any claims the parents are making to keep her alive and remove the husband from custody. Case closed. Anything else IMO is trying to make up the laws as you go and is not the way this works...

This is where I fall in all of this. I don't support any of the legislative/executive attempts to circumvent the judicial process. If my party wants to make the ethical/moral issues involving "right to life" a concern that overrides any and all legal issues, then they should no longer be in favor of the death penalty. At least be consistent.

It's a damn good thing for the Republicans that I don't vote for or against candidates based on social issues...

[chinaski]

Anyone watch Scarborough Country last night (there were only 240K of you)...?

Anyways, one of the leaders of a group whos attached itself to the Parents side of the story was on. She actaully said the following...from the transcript...

DOROTHY TIMBS, NATIONAL RIGHT TO LIFE COMMITTEE: Well, first, we don’t take any position on marriage. We only defend innocent human life from conception to natural death.

And this certainly is not a natural death. Clearly, no matter what you say, no matter what the legal arguments come down to, the average American realizes that this is nothing less than starvation and dehydration of a woman who is otherwise healthy. I mean, I don’t even know if I could have lasted as long as she’s lasted. She’s very healthy to last 6 days without water...

AL FRANKEN: Oh, my lord.

hahahaahahahaahahahaha, i cant believe the complete ignorance this situation has revealed.

[SFL Cat]

Originally Posted by Tigercat

Unforunately in a bi-polar nation where each side believes in its own flavor of self-righteousness, a man like Tom Delay finds a comfy home. I always enjoyed the mental image of him as a former pest control man, when in reality he seems to be the unkillable cockroach.

Up...sorry....got a little excited until I realized you weren't talking about Teddy Kennedy.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Arles

I disagree completely. The Florida legislature had a process for deciding the recount of elections, agreed upon by all parties prior and that had been used successfully for decades. The courts then stepped in and said all that was wrong and we needed to change these laws after the fact. ...

This is not at all the way I recall it. There were laws on the books in Florida to handle recounts, but there were no specifics regarding the "counting" of improperly cast ballots. There was a law addressing how to deal with ballots damaged during the counting process, that said the vote(s) should be manually registered if someone could divine the intent of the voter. Over the years, Florida courts had applied that standard "divine the intent of the voter" to the manual recounting of improperly cast and/or non-machine countable ballots. This led to a variety of defacto standards that were applied across the various counties involved in the recount.

The U.S. Supreme Court ruled, in a seven to two decision, that these disparate standards equated to an equal protections violation.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by jerem77

The husband doesn't want to be removed as guardian because he wants her dead.

or perhaps he wants his Wife's wishes carried out. Its as good a theory as yours.

[Flasch186]

DOLA: the supreme court rejected it...again. May she be able to pass with dignity and peace.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by jerem77

The husband doesn't want to be removed as guardian because he wants her dead.

There sure are a lot of posters spewing over-the-top venom, yet when others here respond by raising serious points and offering debate on the issues, the over-the-top posters seem to disappear or start talking about Ted Kennedy...

I for one think that this is a "teachable moment" that is an opening for debate on general societal issues affecting this case. It would seem that some posters would much rather spout one-liners than seriously tackle the issues involved.

But that's just me, carry on...

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by Chubby

What remaining legal options? Let congress or the Fla state government create unconstitutional law after unconstitutional law til the end of time? It's been 8 years of appeal after appeal getting shot down. It's time to move on.

Five years -- the original court decision was entered in 2000. Or if you count from the beginning of the legal wrangling, it's 11 years since the first petition from the Schindlers to remove Michael as Terri's guardian.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

why is this even anyone's business? who care's about Terri? look outside your window - we're still in a fucking war with Iraqi insurgents.

Where the fuck do you live, Baghdad? I haven't seen a fucking Iraqi insurgent outside my window, well, ever.

this is like 2001 all over again, where the nation concerned itself with that ugly whore Chandra Levi. if she wasn't jewish no one would have cared. but since we like to live in a cacoon with these phony "important issues" while God knows who is out plotting to knock down another national landmark, we're dooming ourselves to repeat history.

Thanks for tellign me why I concerned myself with the Levi case. Of course, as always you couldn't buy a clue if you won a lottery. Next time you waste time vomitting out garbage, don't implicate others in your stupidity.

sometimes i really hate humans.

Well, you are a compelling argument for such hatred.

[Anthony]

nice axxon. i love the people who take the time out to write a response to every sentence in a post and try to make believe they're engaging in a debate. you made no statement. you took some of my opinions where i said the sky was blue and you simply called it black. i also love people who can't comprehend figurative speech and take it literally. yes, indeed, if you were to open your window you'd see tanks and Blackhawks and Iraqi rebels. *sigh*

come back to me when you can formulate your own ideas and arguements rather than sit back comfortably in you chair and pick random statements to be contrary to.

this is not an arguement:

HA: "the sky is blue"
Axxon: "no it's not".
HA: "dogs are better than cats"
Axxon: "no, actually they aren't"

you see the point. you are just writing contrary statements, not elaborating on any opinion (or lack theroeof) of your own.

[Cringer]

Here is my main problem with this whole thing. I HATE how she has to die. To let someone starve to death over a 1-2 week period blows, and is pretty damn cruel to me.

If they had not made assisted suicide illegal...........there is a humane way of letting her go.

[Bomber]

Originally Posted by Cringer

Here is my main problem with this whole thing. I HATE how she has to die. To let someone starve to death over a 1-2 week period blows, and is pretty damn cruel to me.

If they had not made assisted suicide illegal...........there is a humane way of letting her go.

She doesn't even know its happening.

[Mac Howard]

Originally Posted by Cringer

Here is my main problem with this whole thing. I HATE how she has to die. To let someone starve to death over a 1-2 week period blows, and is pretty damn cruel to me.

If they had not made assisted suicide illegal...........there is a humane way of letting her go.

Now that's the debate everyone's been avoiding

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by Bomber

She doesn't even know its happening.

Yeah, did she tell you that?

I have a hard time believing she feels no pain at all, that is just my opinion.

[chinaski]

Originally Posted by Cringer

Here is my main problem with this whole thing. I HATE how she has to die. To let someone starve to death over a 1-2 week period blows, and is pretty damn cruel to me.

If they had not made assisted suicide illegal...........there is a humane way of letting her go.

You know thats the way its done in hospices all across this world? I actually know 2 people who in the last 3 months have had their fathers pass, in a hospice, exactly like Terry Shiavo. It was their wish to die once they were not able to take care of themselves any further, they removed the feeding tube and 9 days later they passed on. There isnt a single doctor that will tell you its cruel, while in fact its actually the complete opposite of how bad you think it is..

[yabanci]

Originally Posted by Cringer

Yeah, did she tell you that?

I have a hard time believing she feels no pain at all, that is just my opinion.

We used to have armchair quarterbacks.

Now we have armchair neurologists.

[Franklinnoble]

I'm an armchair porn star.

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by yabanci

We used to have armchair quarterbacks.

Now we have armchair neurologists.

I am not an armchair neurologist. I just believe that doctors do not know everything about the human body, and what some people call the soul. (And trust me I am pretty far from a religious guy)

**I just deleted a ton more, I am tired and started rambling....

[RendeR]

I'm hoping that the people arguing about keeping her alive realize that the videos and statements of "following us with her eyes" and any other notation that she is cognizant at any time right now is utterly false. A news report just this past tuesday (CBS news channel 4 boston) stated that all the video clips and comments regarding this were at the least 4 years old and most of the video was almost 7 years old. The woman hasn't been responsive to anything in any way in well over 4 years. She is not concious.

This is no way for ANY human to live or be forced to live by peole who have no legal right to make such decisions.

The husband does have that right, and I believe him when he says he is following her wishes. The man's record in caring for his wife is untouchable. At this point the financial burden is far more than the family or the husband can or want to bear.

Let her pass in peace, lets think about the real victim and let her go.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Let her pass in peace, lets think about the real victim and let her go.

I say we apply this to murderers as well.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I say we apply this to murderers as well.

Trust me, I'm all for captiol Punishment.

Frankly I'd love to bring the death penalty all teh way down to cover things like armed robbery and assault with a deadly weapon.

You want to threaten someone's life? you forfiet your own.

[clintl]

Originally Posted by Cringer

I am not an armchair neurologist. I just believe that doctors do not know everything about the human body,

They certainly know more than anyone else, since it is their professional specialty.

On another board, I read a post from someone who works in a hospice and has seen many people die, and who corroborated that this is a peaceful, painless death. I have yet to see any associated with medicine argue otherwise.