OT - The Canadian politics thread

[Bubba Wheels]

Just as long as our supply of Canadian Bacon is not interupted, daddy needs his morning Egg McMuffin.

[chrisj]

Originally Posted by GMO

If U.S. President Bush or a member of the Republican party said that Canadians should not vote for the Liberal party we would be hearing for years about American interference in Canadian politics.

If Bush said that Canadians should not vote for the Liberal party and should vote Conservative, I really think Paul Martin and the Liberals would actually be VERY happy.

[Sharpieman]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

To the Americans, do you even care? (Hint: the Conservatives would be a lot more Bush-friendly than the Liberals)
.

You know if Bush can't get the support of strong Canada, he could be in really big trouble coming this Nov. It would be a very big push for Kerry if the Liberal guy wins. Extremely important elections for the Americans.

[Joe Canadian]

Originally Posted by Wolfpack

Um...isn't this slightly contradictory? If it weren't a true representation of what Canadians think, then the Conservatives have no shot, right?

No, because ALOT of people who are voting for them are either disregarding their archaic social opinions, or are not aware of them. This election is alot more about change then it is about policy issues.

[Joe Canadian]

Originally Posted by GMO

Michael Moore, the American author and filmmaker, made a statement to Canadians about the Canadian election "You've got four days after it (his movie) opens, to get people out to the polls to make sure that Mr. Harper doesn't become your next prime minister,".

Ralph Nader, an American, also stated that Canadians should not vote for Harper.

Why is there no outrage from the Liberal party and the media about this American interference in Canadian politics?

If U.S. President Bush or a member of the Republican party said that Canadians should not vote for the Liberal party we would be hearing for years about American interference in Canadian politics.

Double standard?

There's a big difference between Nadar, a man who has no chance of becoming President, and Moore, a 'normal' citizen... and the President of a foreign country.

Plus, Canada is alot more Liberal and there's obviously not going to be much attention given to American liberals telling Canadians not to vote for the right...

[Joe Canadian]

Originally Posted by Karim

Have you confirmed in person that your candidate is against abortion, is homophobic and will turn look to Capitol Hill for policy advice? If not, name a person in the party you know fit the criteria of an extreme right-wing, homophobe? The party is hardly "overrun" with these types of people. Before the election Martin was anti-gay marriage. Is he an extremist?

Having worked for the party, I can confirm that there are indeed social conservatives in the party. This is not surprising as all parties are formed by various interests but they are a small part of the party. Being a social conservative is not synonymous with being an extremist but people obviously can't make the distinction, instead accepting the spoonfeeding done by the media.

How come the left-wing radicals of the Liberal Party are never questioned by the CBC?

My canidate stand for the following...
- more military spending, based on Harper's plan
- a HOC vote on the definition of marriage, stating that minoritys have rights but so does the majority
- and for what he's been saying in local debates he's very much a Harper supporter on all policies... and he's a PC recruit.

Again I state... Canadians are very much a left-wing country, no one cares what left-wing policies are being thought up... people do care what right-wing, anti-progessive policies are being thought up.

Sorry, but Harper held alot of these opinions when he was in the Alliance... maybe I'm being spoonfed by the media, but personally I don't buy the fact that he's suddenly a changes man.

[Karim]

Is unfettered access to abortion, legislation defining marriage as between two people and raising trade barriers and wanting distance from the US not equally extreme? You say no one cares about such policies. I guess it's just another example of a slap in the face to the millions of western Canadians who care and will not vote Liberal come Monday.

Canada is lucky that the country was founded peacefully and that we have a history of democracy and not revolution. Western Alienation and Quebec Seperatism are two thriving forces that would have easily ripped apart another country.

[Maple Leafs]

Well, the results are in! The CBC just breathlessly reported the first results... from the first riding.... from the first polling booth.... for a grand total of, um, eleven votes.

The Liberals are winning! It's a landslide!

[vtbub]

U folks surprised at the Liberal strength so far?

[Simms]

Not particularly. It's "only" the maritimes....wait for the Ontario/Quebec results to start coming in. That's where they're really going to get hammered, I think.

17 minutes until this actually starts getting interesting.

[Simms]

Dola...

Great site for live results: http://www.thestar.com/fedelection/fed_elxn_2004.html

As accurate and up-to-date as the TV, but without the commentary.

[Maple Leafs]

So... who did folks end up voting for?

I wavered all campaign, but eventually went Liberal. At the end, my anger at the arrogant, corrupt Liberals couldn't outweigh my fear of the Conservatives.

Does this mean I have to take the lefty side on this board for the next four years?

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

So... who did folks end up voting for?

I wavered all campaign, but eventually went Liberal. At the end, my anger at the arrogant, corrupt Liberals couldn't outweigh my fear of the Conservatives.

Does this mean I have to take the lefty side on this board for the next four years?

Interesting, you voted out of 'fear.' I hope I never reach the point that 'fear' determines what I do or don't do, but there is always that possibility I guess.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Interesting, you voted out of 'fear.' I hope I never reach the point that 'fear' determines what I do or don't do, but there is always that possibility I guess.

Oh shit, Bubba's here. Everyone turn off the lights and don't move, maybe he'll stop ringing the doorbell and go away...

[Simms]

I couldn't and wouldn't vote Liberal. I honestly didn't know who I was going to vote for until an hour before I got to the polls tonight. It was a coin flip between conservative and NDP.

I dislike and am frightened by both parties for various reasons, but I couldn't find even a single issue to outweigh another and tip the scales. In the end, I decided that since I couldn't actually vote for either Leyton or Harper directly, I would cast my vote for the candidate in my riding that I actually thought would best represent the interests of my community.

While I am not at all sure that I want to wake up to Stephen Harper as my Prime Minister in the morning, I voted Conservative.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Simms

I dislike and am frightened by both parties for various reasons, but I couldn't find even a single issue to outweigh another and tip the scales. In the end, I decided that since I couldn't actually vote for either Leyton or Harper directly, I would cast my vote for the candidate in my riding that I actually thought would best represent the interests of my community.

Similar situation here. In my riding, the Liberal candidate is a cabinet minister and long-time local politician. The Tory is a 25-year-old kid who only moved here a few months ago. In the end, that helped sway my choice.

[Simms]

btw....I actually had candidates on the ballot in my riding (Parkdale-High Park) for the Marxist-Leninist Party, and the Marijuana Party.

[Simms]

Here we go....

[Maple Leafs]

Now the real election results come in.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Oh shit, Bubba's here. Everyone turn off the lights and don't move, maybe he'll stop ringing the doorbell and go away...

HA! Sounds like the beginning of the O'Reilly Factor...you know "Lock the Doors, Hide the Kids, the O'Reilly Factor is about to begin!" You do me a great compliment!

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

So... who did folks end up voting for?

I wavered all campaign, but eventually went Liberal. At the end, my anger at the arrogant, corrupt Liberals couldn't outweigh my fear of the Conservatives.

Does this mean I have to take the lefty side on this board for the next four years?

NoMyths will be along shortly to teach you the handshake, then JoninMiddleGA will stop by to kick you in the nuts a couple of times.

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by Simms

I couldn't and wouldn't vote Liberal. I honestly didn't know who I was going to vote for until an hour before I got to the polls tonight. It was a coin flip between conservative and NDP.

I dislike and am frightened by both parties for various reasons, but I couldn't find even a single issue to outweigh another and tip the scales. In the end, I decided that since I couldn't actually vote for either Leyton or Harper directly, I would cast my vote for the candidate in my riding that I actually thought would best represent the interests of my community.

While I am not at all sure that I want to wake up to Stephen Harper as my Prime Minister in the morning, I voted Conservative.

I was in a similar situation... I don't trust the Liberals and Conservatives, and I don't know much about NDP. I went with the local representative that had one issue that I agreed with, and voted NDP.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

NoMyths will be along shortly to teach you the handshake, then JoninMiddleGA will stop by to kick you in the nuts a couple of times.

Didn't think Liberals had those

[clintl]

What happened to that far-right party headed by the Pat Buchanan clone that split off from the Conservatives a few years ago? Did they return to the Conservative fold?

[Simms]

Yeah, the Progressive Conservatives, the Canadian Alliance, and a bunch of smaller right-wingish parties all joined together over the winter to form the "new" Conservative Party.

[vtbub]

so do the liberals form with the NDP?

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

NoMyths will be along shortly to teach you the handshake, then JoninMiddleGA will stop by to kick you in the nuts a couple of times.

Damn.

Do I still get to kick Devil Ray ass in OOTP?

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by vtbub

so do the liberals form with the NDP?

In a second.

There will be the requisit hemming and hawing and posturing, but the Liberals and NDPs would love to jump into bed.

[vtbub]

CBC, Global, and CTV say Liberal Minority.

(Yes, I'm a political junkie)

[Joe Canadian]

WOOT!!!! Liberal minority, with the NDP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Exactly the outcome I wanted!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Joe Canadian

WOOT!!!! Liberal minority, with the NDP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Exactly the outcome I wanted!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hippie.

[Joe Canadian]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Hippie.

I prefer to call myself an anti-(crazy, religious right, looney) man...

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Similar situation here. In my riding, the Liberal candidate is a cabinet minister and long-time local politician. The Tory is a 25-year-old kid who only moved here a few months ago. In the end, that helped sway my choice.

And it looks like the Tory kid is going to win the riding... Wow!

[Joe Canadian]

Anyone catch Rick Mercer's "bit" on CBC? Classic, as usual... gives me alot of new stuff to say to the lazy non-voters that we have in this country.

[WillyWTE]

election? what?

[Joe Canadian]

Originally Posted by WillyWTE

election? what?

moron? yes.

[bbor]

Yawn.......what a letdown....

[Joe Canadian]

Originally Posted by bbor

Yawn.......what a letdown....

I would have prefered more NDP's (out of the Liberal chunk), and a few Green's... but I'm satisfied because the Republi.... oh, I mean the Conservatives didn't win.

[WillyWTE]

Originally Posted by Joe Canadian

moron? yes.

But I'm from SK so it really doesn't matter.

Willy

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

...

The Liberals are winning! It's a landslide!

Was this really ever in doubt? I mean if the candidates are Canadian, how conservative can they really be?

[Schedule Junkie]

In all the coverage I've seen so far, all the talk has been about how the Liberals did better than expected, and no talk about the level of voting turnout. Given the concern over that before the election, I'm surprised there wasn't at least some level of comment on what the voter turnout level was.

Originally Posted by Simms

btw....I actually had candidates on the ballot in my riding (Parkdale-High Park) for the Marxist-Leninist Party, and the Marijuana Party.

Hey, I live in the same riding as you! I noticed those parties on the ballot as well.

[klayman]

Yay! My team won...sorta. Actually I was undecided through out most of the campaign, switching from PC to Liberal and back again. That all changed when a rep of the PC candidate in my riding called me at work around noon to convince me to get out and vote. From that point on I was voting Liberal.

[portnoise]

Originally Posted by Schedule Junkie

In all the coverage I've seen so far, all the talk has been about how the Liberals did better than expected, and no talk about the level of voting turnout. Given the concern over that before the election, I'm surprised there wasn't at least some level of comment on what the voter turnout level was.


Hey, I live in the same riding as you! I noticed those parties on the ballot as well.

...I live there too... should have had a canadidate for the FOFC party...

[Simms]

Originally Posted by Schedule Junkie

In all the coverage I've seen so far, all the talk has been about how the Liberals did better than expected, and no talk about the level of voting turnout. Given the concern over that before the election, I'm surprised there wasn't at least some level of comment on what the voter turnout level was.

I heard somebody say this morning that turnout was 62% nationwide. That doesn't seem too bad to me, but whoever was reporting it certainly made it sound like a disappointment. I have no idea about what context to put that in, though (higher than normal? lower? better/worse than the US?).

I also heard, interestingly, that based on exit polls, something like 45% of voters only made up their mind in the last week ... 25% in the last 24 hours. Talk about the lesser of two (or three) evils.

Cool to see all the west-enders here. We could almost include bbor, but he only works in this riding, so he only counts for half.

[Kevin]

As to turnout it seems to be in line with the last election at just over 60%.

In my opinion the drop off is due to a combination of factors:

1) Negative advertising. It's too easy to find a reason to vote against someone or stay home because you find all the negativity makes one believe they're all liars with hidden agendas.

2) Excessive media coverage and influence. The leader debates are set up by the media to encourage childish arguing in the hopes of the defining 10 second sound bite a la Mulroney vs Turner. If you watched the leadership debates, you'd have a hard time finding a reason to vote after watching that nonsense. By the time the election day comes, we're all sick of the endless speculation and analysis by the media.

3) Spin doctors. Because the media wants that 10 second sound bite, the participants are so heavily coached that they rarely reveal what they really think about an issue.

4) Ultimately it comes back to the voting public for not taking the time to try and meet the candidates or read their platforms. We tend to rely on the crap from the media and spin doctors, and then wonder why we're disillusioned with the process. We're too involved in our jobs and family, and start to become complacent about our democracy. In the end, it says a lot about our country and standard of living that we can afford to be complacent. For that we must be thankful.

[Fidatelo]

What did everyone think of the coverage last night? Which station did people decide to watch? Did anyone learn anything interesting about the country or their riding that they didn't know before?

I started with CBC, but switched to Global after Peter Mansbridge referred to Toronto as "Central Canada" and repeatedly claimed that it was "almost 9:30 Central Time" when in fact he was speaking about Eastern Time.

[Kevin]

When you're from Atlantic Canada, Toronto is Central Canada. It may be Eastern time zone, but there's a lot of miles further east of TO on the TCH.

I watched CBC because I can't stand CTV and I rarely think of Global as a network, if only because there were only two channels during my childhood.

[bbor]

Damn......Lotsa fofc people living in High Park

[Karim]

I am a born and bread Calgarian. I became politically conscious around the second term of the Mulroney Conservatives. I understood and supported the forming of the Reform Party as Western Canadians were fed up with Ottawa dictating to Western Canada. I supported the "unite the right" movement as I felt it was practically necessary to present one electoral voice rather than two.

People outside the region dismiss Western alienation as a myth but it has it's roots to the 1920s. Whether it was the UFA, CCF, Social Credit or the Reform Party, Western Canada was willing to try new ideas and parties to get a voice within Parliament because the existing parties failed to support or captivate the region. I won't detail specific examples that rest in the memories of Western Canadians as books have been written about it but the final straw was the NEP under the Trudeau government.

That was the first instance Western seperatism had legs. Prior to that, it was merely talked about and rejected as Western Canadians are, for the most part, willing to work within the system. However, Trudeau's utter disdain for the region led to the formation of a seperatist party. After every election since, seeing the rejection from the rest of the country, seperatist talk gets new life. I'm hearing it again this morning.

Western Canadians don't understand why we're painted with horns by the rest of Canada and the media. They certainly don't understand why Ontario, and specifically the 40 seats in the GTA have given a new mandate to a government under 36 investigations. They certainly see it as an endorsement to waste billions of taxpayers dollars from Alberta, a net contributor to the federation. I'm a conservative (deliberate small "c" because I'm not in the party) but my views on social policies are so different than Randy White, Stockwell Day, Scott Reid, Rob Anders or Cheryl Gallant. And that is true for the majority of conservatives. The social agenda of these five individuals would not get much play in caucus.

This country is without doubt four solitudes. The Liberal Party likes to think of itself as a national party but electing one or two members from Alberta or Saskatchewan does not make it so. They always have been disrespectful to the region.

I have immense respect for the Bloc Quebecois and sovereigntists. They are standing up for Quebec, rejecting the notion that this country and federation can be inclusive, and fighting for what they believe in. No one criticizes them for collecting their own federal tax and having their own pension plan. Yet, when the same is suggested for Alberta, those evil Western Canadians are at it again. Maybe if walls were set up around Alberta and resource revenue wasn't redistributed, the country would think about the disunity that actually exists. Of course, this won't happen because equalization is entrenched in the constitution and Albertans are notoriously stubborn in their belief in this country no matter how many times they get kicked in the stomach. But if Alberta or Western Canada leaves, that would be a different story.

I've said my piece. I'm now going to console with my right-wing radical friends and discuss how a woman's place is in the kitchen birthing babies, how minorities shouldn't be protected under the Charter as they aren't "true Canadians", and how the Notwithstanding Clause should be invoked to prevent same-sex marriage because "those people" really need to be first cured of their disease.

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by Karim

I have immense respect for the Bloc Quebecois and sovereigntists. They are standing up for Quebec, rejecting the notion that this country and federation can be inclusive, and fighting for what they believe in. No one criticizes them for collecting their own federal tax and having their own pension plan. Yet, when the same is suggested for Alberta, those evil Western Canadians are at it again. Maybe if walls were set up around Alberta and resource revenue wasn't redistributed, the country would think about the disunity that actually exists. Of course, this won't happen because equalization is entrenched in the constitution and Albertans are notoriously stubborn in their belief in this country no matter how many times they get kicked in the stomach. But if Alberta or Western Canada leaves, that would be a different story.

I hate this attitude. Every province or territory brings something to the table in this country. Why don't we just keep drawing lines around ourselves until every person gets to be their own country? Then I won't have to ever pay taxes to anyone who doesn't have as much wealth or income potential as I do.