One advantage John Stockon had over Kobe...

[Kodos]

I actually like Jordan, but that aspect of him is annoying to me.

[Bishop]

Ridiculous, I hate the lakers and really don't like Kobe much either but to say he over does it is ridiculous...

There are reasons why people like the 'arrogant, pompous' Kobe have rings and the vanilla boring Stockton don't... Kobe raises his teams play not just by his performance but by showing he isn't giving up an is enjoying himself.. It rallies his team, and probably rallies himself..

Most team leaders are the most out spoken, energetic players on the team. on and off the court.... It gets the team going.

It obviously worked lastnight because they came back big time.

[Marmel]

The NBA is about the name on the back of the jersey.

This seems like it is a new concept to some of you guys.

[Kodos]

It obviously worked lastnight because they came back big time.


... but, sadly, fell just short.


Again, I have nothing against spirit or leadership or coming back against great odds. I just don't like showboaters. Brett Favre leads his team back without doing little dances or poses.

[Subby]

Originally posted by Kodos
He does more than smiles. He poses.

To help you understand better, did Michael Jordan annoy you when he "smiled"? He did the same types of things that Kobe does now. They were irritating when Jordan did them too.

I think it is completely obvious that you actually have a massive crush on him. You'd probably blow a nut if I could arrange it so that you could give him a piggy-back ride in the Cowboys post-game locker room...

[Kodos]

You see right through me, don't you?

[Anrhydeddu]

Brett Favre leads his team back without doing little dances or poses.

...only to throw a reckless interception.

The NBA is about the name on the back of the jersey.

Marm, maybe they should put the name of the player on the front as well since the team name had not meant anything since MJ.

[Marmel]

The NBA should do away with teams and become a massive 1 on 1 tournament.


Oh, it already is?

[MrBug708]

If thats the case, you'd see Kevin Garnett probably win the MVP and Duncan wouldn't even finish Top 25

[Anrhydeddu]

Massive 1 on 1 tournament plus a @%#$! dunking contest at halftime. Michael "There's No Team in I" Jordan would be proud to what he begat.

[rexallllsc]

Originally posted by Kodos
He does more than smiles. He poses.

To help you understand better, did Michael Jordan annoy you when he "smiled"? He did the same types of things that Kobe does now. They were irritating when Jordan did them too.

No, Jordan didn't irritate me.

[rexallllsc]

Originally posted by Kodos
It obviously worked lastnight because they came back big time.


... but, sadly, fell just short.


Again, I have nothing against spirit or leadership or coming back against great odds. I just don't like showboaters. Brett Favre leads his team back without doing little dances or poses.

Uhh...Brett Favre pumps his fist and dances all over the field.

[Marmel]

Originally posted by MrBug708
If thats the case, you'd see Kevin Garnett probably win the MVP and Duncan wouldn't even finish Top 25

And that right there is the base of everybody's arguments against the NBA these days.

The MVP is given to the correct person, Duncan.

But he is an afterthought. Names like McGrady, Vinsanity, Kobe, Shaq and Garnett are the first names drilled into your head by the NBA and their marketing staff.

If there were more Duncans and less Kobes, the NBA would be more watchable for the average person.

Side notes: Kobe is a tremendous basketball player, but I don't really care to watch him or his team or similar teams.

Also, I am a huge basketball fan. I watch college ball EVERY single night, and still play quite a bit, yet I cannot stomach an NBA game, as much as I wish I could watch it.

[Easy Mac]

Brett Favre is white, Kobe is black... some people can celebrate without being annoying.

[heybrad]

Originally posted by Marmel
But he is an afterthought. Names like McGrady, Vinsanity, Kobe, Shaq and Garnett are the first names drilled into your head by the NBA and their marketing staff.

Are they drilled into your head by the NBA or by Nike, Adidas or some other shoe company?

That may be opening a whole other can of worms.

[Anrhydeddu]

Originally posted by Marmel
And that right there is the base of everybody's arguments against the NBA these days.

The MVP is given to the correct person, Duncan.

But he is an afterthought. Names like McGrady, Vinsanity, Kobe, Shaq and Garnett are the first names drilled into your head by the NBA and their marketing staff.

If there were more Duncans and less Kobes, the NBA would be more watchable for the average person.

Side notes: Kobe is a tremendous basketball player, but I don't really care to watch him or his team or similar teams.

Also, I am a huge basketball fan. I watch college ball EVERY single night, and still play quite a bit, yet I cannot stomach an NBA game, as much as I wish I could watch it.

Well said, Marm. Maybe the NBA of when I was a big fan in the 1970s up to the mid-1990s wasn't so bad afterall?

But he is an afterthought. Names like McGrady, Vinsanity, Kobe, Shaq and Garnett are the first names drilled into your head by the NBA and their marketing staff.

For some reason, Michael "Mr. Excitement" Vick comes to mind.

[Kodos]

Originally posted by Easy Mac
Brett Favre is white, Kobe is black... some people can celebrate without being annoying.

This is just pathetic. Would you be happier if I subbed Donovan McNabb for Brett Favre? And an arm pump is different then posing dramatically for the benefit of the cameras. But thanks for trying to make it a racial issue.

[Marmel]

Originally posted by heybrad
Are they drilled into your head by the NBA or by Nike, Adidas or some other shoe company?

That may be opening a whole other can of worms.

Brad, I know what you mean, but I really think it is both entities that promote those guys. Also, the TV stations that the NBA deals with do the same.

[Marmel]

Originally posted by Easy Mac
Brett Favre is white, Kobe is black... some people can celebrate without being annoying.

That is quite a stretch if that is what you pulled out of Kodos' posts, Easy.

[rexallllsc]

Originally posted by Marmel
That is quite a stretch if that is what you pulled out of Kodos' posts, Easy.

Favre is one of the most exuberant players in the NFL...Kobe isn't one of the most exuberant in the NBA...He doesn't poull antennas out of his head, he doesn't do anything more than any other good players in the NBA. His whining about it is actually kinda pathetic.

Either Kodos is blinded by his hatred of the Lakers.........

[Kodos]

He doesn't poull antennas out of his head, he doesn't do anything more than any other good players in the NBA.

Ummm. Is anyone else having a hard time understanding what this means?

[rexallllsc]

Originally posted by Kodos
He doesn't poull antennas out of his head, he doesn't do anything more than any other good players in the NBA.

Ummm. Is anyone else having a hard time understanding what this means?

Just you. I guess you haven't seen Miles, Magette, and Richardson pull the fake antennas out of their head after a big play.

Kobe Bryant is no more exuberant about a big play that any other superstar in the NBA. Find someone who really is a bad guy to whine about.

[Kodos]

To be honest, I've never seen that. I don't watch much NBA, except for the playoffs, and then, mostly only to watch the Lakers lose. I was unaware of the cool antenna thing. Please forgive me.

Edit: Oh, and what wild celebrations have you seen league MVP Tim Duncan do?

[Franklinnoble]

Originally posted by Kodos

Edit: Oh, and what wild celebrations have you seen league MVP Tim Duncan do?

Or David Robinson, for that matter.

You can be a well-respected and outstanding athlete without behaving like a 15 year old high school punk.

[rexallllsc]

Originally posted by Kodos
To be honest, I've never seen that. I don't watch much NBA, except for the playoffs, and then, mostly only to watch the Lakers lose. I was unaware of the cool antenna thing. Please forgive me.

Edit: Oh, and what wild celebrations have you seen league MVP Tim Duncan do?

I saw Duncan laughing after he made a shot last night. That type of celebration is over the line.

I also saw Duncan berate 2 different officials last night. Now, what lesson does THAT teach our children?

C'mon Kodos...it's not like these guys are doing touchdown dances at center court...

[rexallllsc]

Originally posted by Franklinnoble
Or David Robinson, for that matter.

You can be a well-respected and outstanding athlete without behaving like a 15 year old high school punk.

He doesn't have much to celebrate. He sucks.

[ColtCrazy]

This is why I don't watch the NBA. I think it's more than the other sport with the constant "look at me" attitude. I gave up watching some fool strut down the court because he dunked the ball. Oh, you are the man. You are 6'9' with arms the length of cargo ship. I'm impressed.

The NFL isn't as bad, but it ticks me off to see a guy show off because he made a tackle. Yippie! A tackle. Next play he's torched for a TD...where's the celebration now buddy?

Now, I don't mind celebrating if it means something. Game winning shot? fine. Go ahead touchdown? Super. But every stinking bucket or tackle? Give me a break.

[BFleming]

Wow, this thread was 10 minutes of my time I wish I could have back...But since I'm here...

Kobe is without a doubt arrogant. Yes he is talented, yes he is a well-respected citizen off the court, but I don't recall this thread being about Kobe being arrogant OFF the court...Comparing him to Maggette, etc does nothing to mitigate his own behavior. A showboater is a showboater is a showboater. End of story. To say that he's not as "bad" as Maggette et al, is in all intensive purposes saying that if I were to walk out of the house and steal a geo metro, then have my neighbor walk out of the house and steal a mercedes, I wouldn't be as "bad" because hey, I could have stolen that mercedes...of course, if I had stolen either, I'd be playing for the Portland Jailblazers...

[Calis]

Same 'ole same 'ole all over again. I hate Kobe, so lets pick something that he does and completely blast him for it.

I am also a card carrying Laker hater, but I think Kobe is a great player, and from everything I've seen/read a pretty great person as well. I don't see a problem with his style of celebrating after he accomplishes something. If you're not being detrimental to the team doing it, if you're not risking fugging the game up, or taunting someone, who gives a crap? He's a young kid doing what he loves to do, doing it well, and enjoying the hell out of himself. I don't see it as an insult to the sport. I guess that's a matter of opinion, I just think the Lakers uniform clouds a helluva lotta minds.

I mean, if Kobe dunked the ball, took the ball to half court and spiked it on the Spurs logo, maybe I could see people complaining.

[Pumpy Tudors]

"Class" is overrated. Some people enjoy it. Some people are ambivalent about it. If I'm going to judge an athlete's on-field or on-court behavior, I'm going to judge their in-game performance. I do not feel that Tim Duncan is better than Kobe Bryant in any way simply because Duncan isn't a showboater.

When it comes right down to it, the only thing that matters is the winner. Call me a puddle of goo, but if a team consistently goes out there and wins, their talent supercedes their conformity to anybody's sportsmanship standards. Kobe and this Lakers core have three championships. So, I find it rather illuminating that they go out there and act any way they want. They don't care what you (in a general sense) think, nor should they. If you don't like it, don't watch it.

And I'm saying these things as a UTAH JAZZ fan.

It doesn't even bother me if players on non-winning teams like the Clippers act that way. As long as the players go out there and don't break the rules in the rulebook, they're just doing their thing. To me, the whole idea of "disrespecting the sport" is a crock anyway. Sports are dynamic. Was it a bastardization when the NFL introduced the forward pass? How about when the NBA put in the three-point shot? Or when they allowed the slam dunk? There were some so-called "purists" who flapped their lips faster than a fluffer back then, too, but the game changed, the purists got outnumbered, the game continued to flourish.

The same thing's going to happen here. Purists, live it up while you can.

[Calis]

Pumpy, I agreed with everything you said up until the Utah Jazz fan part, then you lose all credibility.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Dammit, I knew there was a chink in my armor.

[RonnieDobbs]

I'm with Pumpy. Kobe, who I don't think is even the worst offender, has earned the right to. He's won. By showing off, he's saying to the rest of the league "I am the best." And for the past three seasons, he has been. With Jordan it was the same way. It's part of the game, intimidating the opponent.

However, I think it gets ridiculous when guys who haven't done anything in the NBA behave like this. I think you need to earn the ability to act like a hotshot.

And BTW, I think Tim Duncan is unbelievable and is my kind of athlete. I think grouping him with the other "flashier" players that Marmel mentioned puts him in a very good group (minus Carter) of future Hall-of-Famers. I think he'd go anywhere in that Top 5.

[JeeberD]

I hate the Jazz more than I hate the Lakers...

[heybrad]

Originally posted by RonnieDobbs
However, I think it gets ridiculous when guys who haven't done anything in the NBA behave like this.

For example... Antoine Walker and that stupid shoulder shimmy.

[Pumpy Tudors]

To everyone who has some problem with a pose or a dance move or whatever:

Just because you wouldn't do it doesn't make it wrong. Nyah.

I don't "shower" or "brush my teeth" or "leave the table before urinating," yet I don't complain because half the people I know do those things.

[Anrhydeddu]

But no one pays you to do those things nor do you do those publically. When one is in the public spotlight, being a role-model and imitated automatically comes with the territory.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally posted by cthomer5000
everytime I go to the supermarket I see Kobe plasetered on nutella. What kind of friggin' endorsement is that!?


And yes, I'm dead serious. Check it out in your local supermarket.

Nutella is some damned, fine sh*t! Nothing wrong with endorsing Nutella. A tasty, quality product. Give that sweet, delicious spread a try, C-5000!

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
But no one pays you to do those things nor do you do those publically. When one is in the public spotlight, being a role-model and imitated automatically comes with the territory.

So kids will imitate showboaters and grow up to be showboaters. So then you have a league of showboaters in 10 years. Big deal. As I said, the sports are dynamic. As long as they're not breaking the rules, I say more power to them. Eventually, everyone who's bothered by dancing or celebrating (even if someone is celebrating a simple bounce pass) will stop watching and move on. Even I don't really watch the NBA anymore, as I consider it damn near unwatchable, although that's for different reasons. It doesn't matter, though. Some people's interest in the game will die, but the game never will.

[rexallllsc]

Originally posted by Kodos
I don't mind celebration or emotion. Tim Duncan smiling as he ran down the court was nice. I do mind acting like you are God because you just made a shot.

San Antonio Spurs' Tim Duncan reacts after scoring in the second half against the Los Angeles Lakers in Game 6 of the NBA Western Conference semifinals in Los Angeles, May 15, 2003.

[Chief Rum]

I don't think there's any doubt Kobe showboats at times. But what makes this thread ridiculous is that:

1) It was posted by Kodos, a noted Laker-hater.
2) Kobe is not anywhere near the worst showboater in the league.
3) I have not seen Kodos calling for Darius Miles or Reggie Miller or Latrell Sprewell or Allen Iverson or any of a cajillion other possible bigtime showboaters.

Combining all three, I feel I am perfectly within my rights to say that the entire initial post in this thread lacks any credibility whatsoever, thus this thread and all its responses (including my own) are pointless. If Kodos were talking about anyone who didn't give a wit's end about, that would be something. Showboating has been going on forever in many sports for years, though, and this is the moment Kodos comes to rip into showboating? Sorry, Kodos, but until you can start separating your biases from your objective opinions, I really am finding it difficult to put any weight behind anything you say.

Adding to all this, as aforementioned, is the fact that Kodos' chosen role model is John Stockton, not a showboater but world-renowned as perhaps the dirtiest cheapshot artist of all time (and an excessive whiner, if not a showboater), and he chose to ip on a guy in Kobe who, other than some on-court antics that only some fans think is wrong, appears to be an exemplary and well-spoken individual--and who has the rings to back up the attitude even if he was a total dick.

I don't like showboating either. I wish Kobe would quit it, except for perhaps the biggest shots. Not enthusiasm, but showing up the other team. Enthusiasm is fine. But there's a difference, and I think most of us knows where the line is.

So I don't have a bone to pick with Kodos about not liking Kobe's showboating. But I do have a bone to pick with him that he would pick Kobe over a plethora of other examples. It smacks of his hatred for the man, instead of showing Kobe's weaknesses.

Chief Rum

[Noop]

You guys are getting mad over something you can chose not to watch. What you don't see doesn't harm you... Anyway I think Kobe is a good player and a showboat, but he can talk the talk and walk the walk so no one in the league can say anything to him he is the Micheal Jordan of the west coast while my boy T-Mac run the east period.



noop

[Pumpy Tudors]

I hope to see everybody showboating soon. There are the guys like Kobe and Iverson and McGrady who can "back it up" with their play, but I want to see Eric Piatkowski and Bimbo Coles get in on the act, too. I want Denver's Ryan Bowen to get into a dance contest with Washington's Etan Thomas. Let's get Kevin Ollie some face time!

That'll get me watching the NBA again!

[Kodos]

Chief: I'm pretty sure I have put down showboating (and similar things) before. Mark Gastineau comes to mind. Terrell Owens comes to mind. Bill Romanowski comes to mind. Deoin Sanders comes to mind. I'm not going to go hunt down a past quote to prove it, but rest assured I have attacked showboating in the past too. Sorry to attack Kobe, the sacred cow. Notice, I didn't pick on Shaq. Because he doesn't showboat or pose, or at least not nearly as often.

As for Stockton, I was praising his lack of showboating. Notice the title - "ONE ADVANTAGE John Stock had over Kobe". This thread is about annoying showboaters. Stockon may have been many things, but he was not a showboater.

In any sport with subjective calls such as fouls, there is going to be whining. I don't like it, but that is how it is. But posing, sack dances, running to the Cowboy's Star and putting the football on it, pulling out a sharpie to autograph the ball, and high-stepping into the endzone (and subsequently pulling your groin ) serve only to detract from the game. I hate it, and I wish these guys would stop it. Others may not object to it. I do. Feel free to disagree with me. I'm only stating my opinion on the matter.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Putting the football on the Cowboys star only detracts from the game if it's done while the clock is running.

[MrBug708]

Who hit Owens? That was showboating for the Cowboy fans

[JeeberD]

No, Teague was just defending the star. It sure as hell wasn't showboating...

[Kodos]

I think the entire Cowboys team should have come over and wailed on Owens. And I HATE the Cowboys. But Owens deserved an ass-kicking for what he did. Thank you, George Teague.

[TroyF]

Kobe's showboating doesn't bother me. He's a terrific basketball player. The NBA as a whole does bother me.

I'll have to defend MJ for a second though. He wasn't the first to play one on one basketball. Wilkins was doing it long before him. Reggie Theus was doing it before that. The difference was MJ had major success and won titles and teams decided to copy that. What's worse, is that the NBA decided that they NEEDED another Jordan to succeed.

The Superstar calls started and they've reached a point of absurdity. You take out the superstar calls, the game WILL become a team game again. Teams won't be able to rely on their annoited superstar (or 2) getting a million questionalbe calls a season.

The problem now is the rules are not the same for every player. Raef Lafrenz (as much as I despise the guy) has a different set of rules than Shaq or Karl Malone. What's called a traveling for Chris Whitney is a "good move" by Allen Iverson.

Back to the main point: so long as the celebrating isn't showing anyone up, I don't care, have at it. When the line is crossed, as Chief Rum already pointed out, it becomes a problem for me.

Kobe isn't the worst offender of this attitude, but he IS an offender. Still, at the end of the day, Kobe is a reason I still watch the NBA. What a brilliant basketball player. What an incredible athlete.

TroyF