Brett Favre Retirement Tour: Part Deux

[Arles]

Yeah, the game changes a lot. The best comparisons from that list to me are Marino, Elway, Montana, Young, Aikman and Kelly. Favre ranks behind Young and Montana, within 0.2% of Marino and ahead of the others. That puts him as one of the top 4-5 QBs in the 1985 to 2005 window. He's certainly not the best guy in the past 20 years, but arguably being in the top 5 for your ERA seems like a HOF career and one that should be celebrated.

What has hurt Favre is the amount of apologists he's had in the past 4 seasons when his performance has slipped noticeably. I think that has created a lot of backlash that the first 10-12 years of his career didn't really deserve.

[Matthean]

SI: Did Favre hire personal trainer?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Arles

What has hurt Favre is the amount of apologists he's had in the past 4 seasons when his performance has slipped noticeably. I think that has created a lot of backlash that the first 10-12 years of his career didn't really deserve.

definately true

[Arles]

Just for reference, here's a list of starting HBs for Green Bay in Favre's first 10 seasons:

1992: Vince Workman (631 yards, 3.9 ypc), 3.7 team ypc
1993: Darrell Thompson (654 yards, 3.9 ypc), 3.6 team ypc
1994: Edgar Bennett (623 yards, 3.5 ypc), 3.6 team ypc
1995: Edgar Bennett (1067 yards, 3.4 ypc), 3.5 team ypc
* interesting sidebar - Favre was the second best runner this season with 39 attempts for 181 yards (4.6 ypc). Without him, they would have averaged 3.2 ypc.
1996: Edgar Bennett (899 yards, 4.0 ypc), 3.9 team ypc
1997: Dorsey Levens (1435 yards, 4.3 ypc), 4.2 team ypc
1998: essentially a tie between an injured Dorsey Levens (378, 3.3 ypc) and Travis Jervey (325 yards, 3.8 ypc), 3.4 team ypc
1999: Levens (1034 yards, 3.7 ypc), 3.8 team ypc
2000: Ahman Green (1175, 4.5 ypc), 4.0 team ypc
2001: Ahman Green (1387, 4.5 ypc), 4.0 team ypc

Outside of a few seasons in the 2000-2004 range with Green, Favre has had perhaps the worst running game of any major QB. Even Marino only had 1 or 2 seasons in his first 10 where the top back averaged less than 4 ypc. Plus, Favre has certainly never had a back near the level of Terrell Davis, Emmitt Smith or Rodger Craig (or even Ricky Watters for that matter).

[DaddyTorgo]

i wonder what the league-wide numbers for those years were?

and i'd say 92/93 were fine, and 96/97 were fine

[Cringer]

That's because Vince Workman, Edgar Bennett, and Dorsey Levens were the greatest RBs of all time. Although Travis Jervey and his love of exotic animals makes him a close second.

[larrymcg421]

Well, part of it might be that Favre generally played with good defenses, so the YPC's are lower since they'r eplaying ahead and running out the clock alot, whereas Marino was playing from behind so people like Lorenzo Hampton and Troy Stradford had no problem gaining 5 yards against the Dime.

I haven't done other QB's yet, but the difference in average defensive rank between Marino and Favre is pretty wide.

Favre: 9.0
Marino: 19.7

And Favre's Superbowl came in 1996, when he had the #1 defense.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

I would agree that TD passes by themselves don't make for a great measure, but it's good when comparing to INT's. For example, a QB might lose alot of TD's because of a strong running game, but then he should also have fewer INT's because he's facing easier defenses.

Not necessarily true (re: fewer INT's). When would a QB on a team where the RB's get the bulk of the TD's pass the most? When they're losing / late in the game when most INT's happen. Their ratios could look awful as a result, but it might have nothing to do with how good the QB is.

Another thing is I would expect QB's in West Coast offenses to have a much better TD / INT ranking than other QB's because the passes are generally less risky and I would guess those teams throw more frequently in the red zone than downfield passing teams like the Chargers in the 80's, Cowboys in the 90's, or Rams in the late 90's / early 00's. Looking at where Fouts and Aikman rank on the list, it seems like that could well be what's happening with this set of stats.

[Arles]

Yeah, my point isn't that Favre is greater than Marino, Elway or Montana (he obviously isn't), but to remind people how putrid his running game was early on. As a team, they were below the league average on ypc in all but one season from 1992 to 1999. And Favre has a high yards per completion average for his career than Aikman.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Well, part of it might be that Favre generally played with good defenses, so the YPC's are lower since they'r eplaying ahead and running out the clock alot, whereas Marino was playing from behind so people like Lorenzo Hampton and Troy Stradford had no problem gaining 5 yards against the Dime.

I haven't done other QB's yet, but the difference in average defensive rank between Marino and Favre is pretty wide.

Favre: 9.0
Marino: 19.7

And Favre's Superbowl came in 1996, when he had the #1 defense.

Defensive stats can be a little misleading. Green Bay has more lower scoring games due to the weather than Miami does. Any game there from November on is a crapshoot with cold, wind, and a rock hard field. Marino also played in a tougher division that had his team going up against the high powered Bills offense twice a year.

Not saying that Marino had better defenses, but the numbers are probably a little closer than they look.

[RainMaker]

I think Favre is overated by the media and is given a free pass far too often. But I also think he's done some incredible things.

Playing in that many consecutive games is amazing. Especially when you consider his style of play, his mediocre offensive lines, and his lack of a running game. I don't care what anyone says, that alone is a remarkable achievement.

I would also add that his mystique comes from the fact he resurrected one of the most storied franchises in sports. The Packers were pretty shitty back in the 80's and early 90's. He came in and turned that team around quickly. He was the reason they were able to go out and bring in some big name free agents.

And finally, he made mediocre players look like stars. Look at the list of receivers like Robert Brooks, Antonio Freeman, Donald Driver and so on that he has turned into Pro Bowlers. There are few QBs who can do that. I personally think Manning is a better QB than Favre, but I don't think Manning wins as many games as Favre with the talent Favre had. Manning is a guy who needs some talent with him while Favre was someone who made the talent. Different styles and different types of QBs.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Defensive stats can be a little misleading. Green Bay has more lower scoring games due to the weather than Miami does. Any game there from November on is a crapshoot with cold, wind, and a rock hard field. Marino also played in a tougher division that had his team going up against the high powered Bills offense twice a year.

Not saying that Marino had better defenses, but the numbers are probably a little closer than they look.

This is a good point. Even when GB was terrible in the 80s, they always ranked in the top half for team defense - primarily because of the weather. For instance, GB went 4-12 in 1988 under Lindy Infante (absolutely dreadful team), but ranked 7th in total defense because of some low cold weather scores.

[Fighter of Foo]

Originally Posted by Arles

This is a good point. Even when GB was terrible in the 80s, they always ranked in the top half for team defense - primarily because of the weather. For instance, GB went 4-12 in 1988 under Lindy Infante (absolutely dreadful team), but ranked 7th in total defense because of some low cold weather scores.

Primarily because of the weather??? I call BS

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Fighter of Foo

Primarily because of the weather??? I call BS

It was also a rather poor offensive division for much of the 80's and 90's.

[Arles]

Yeah, what I meant above was that a lot of the poor scoring games happened late in the year. But, Chicago and Minnesota has some bad offenses in the late 80s. Still, there was usually a drop in late home games in GB or Chicago in the 80s and early 90s that seemed to coincide with bad weather.

In other news, the Vikes may very well get back into the Favre game:

Minnesota Vikings coach Brad Childress: We will discuss Brett Favre - ESPN

The Minnesota Vikings haven't discussed the possibility of pursuing veteran quarterback Brett Favre. Yet.

Speaking on the first day of his team's rookie minicamp, coach Brad Childress said there hasn't been time to discuss the New York Jets' decision to release Favre. The move made Favre a free agent, raising speculation he was considering a return to the game despite releasing a statement in which he said his plans were to remain retired "at this time."

"We talk about everything," Childress said. "So yeah, I'm sure we'll talk about that."

Looks like we get another 6 months of "Favre watch" on ESPN. Oh, joy

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Arles

Yeah, what I meant above was that a lot of the poor scoring games happened late in the year. But, Chicago and Minnesota has some bad offenses in the late 80s. Still, there was usually a drop in late home games in GB or Chicago in the 80s and early 90s that seemed to coincide with bad weather.

Don't forget Tampa Bay which was woeful every year.

[Arles]

ah, yes, the Bay of Pigs matchup

[Jas_lov]

Favre is meeting with Childress! You should read some of the posts over at JS Online. Many more Packer fans are jumping on the anti-Favre bandwagon now. Favre is making a terrible mistake tarnishing his legacy like this and so are the Vikings trying to sign a washed up interception throwing machine who only wants to sign with the Vikings to stick it to Thompson and McCarthy.

[USFLTecmo]

Originally Posted by Jas_lov

Favre is meeting with Childress! You should read some of the posts over at JS Online. Many more Packer fans are jumping on the anti-Favre bandwagon now. Favre is making a terrible mistake tarnishing his legacy like this and so are the Vikings trying to sign a washed up interception throwing machine who only wants to sign with the Vikings to stick it to Thompson and McCarthy.

He has to actually sign and put on the Vikings helmet before I jump, but put it this way, I'm getting ready to.

[Arles]

Yep, just his ESPN:

Source: Brett Favre to talk to Brad Childress about playing - ESPN

Looks like his hatred of the current GB GM is his reason for returning. Good luck with that

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by Jas_lov

Favre is meeting with Childress! You should read some of the posts over at JS Online. Many more Packer fans are jumping on the anti-Favre bandwagon now. Favre is making a terrible mistake tarnishing his legacy like this and so are the Vikings trying to sign a washed up interception throwing machine who only wants to sign with the Vikings to stick it to Thompson and McCarthy.

Obviously he doesn't care. Anyone thought that he'd hang around Green Bay ala Fuzzy Thurston was kidding themselves. Dude was going to be a ghost in Wisconsin after he was really finally done.

From a Minnesota perspective, getting a soon to be 40 year old QB, that his new teammates didn't warm up to, with a torn biceps, that doesn't take part in preseason camps, who tailed off late in the last 2 seasons and who's primary motivation is revenge doesn't seem like a good play.

[USFLTecmo]

But when has Minnesota ever been accused of doing that?

[panerd]

This story is the swine flu story for sports.

[bhlloy]

IF true, this well and truly tarnishes his legacy. Way to shit all over the team that made your career, the fans that idolized you and defended you all those years you were declining. What a complete and utter douche.

[BYU 14]

There is nothing right about this. As a Vikings fan I want to see him in the Purple about as much as I would have liked seeing Fran Tarkenton in that god awful Green and Yellow!

[Big Fo]

It will be great seeing him lead the Vikings to a win in Lambeau.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Big Fo

It will be great seeing him lead the Vikings to a win in Lambeau.

Would be kinda fun.

[ColtCrazy]

Wow....I'm kind of split on this. On one hand, Favre has always been entertaining to watch. As many bonehead throws he has made, I also remember the great ones. It was hard not to like him when he completed that 3rd and 15 against the Pats this year when the Jets still looked good.

But....the Vikings? If I were the Packers, I'd have a hard time not telling the kicker to wear #4 this year just to stick it to him. It's one thing to move on, but another to play for a rival. Would Brady play for the Bills? Manning for the Jags? I don't see it happening.

I realize it's a business...and I realize Favre is trying to avoid retirement as much as possible....but I don't see this ending well for him. And it's really a shame.

[ISiddiqui]

LOL. What a mess!

[Crim]

Heh John Elway taking snaps in the silver and black...



haw haw haw never ever ever. Brett is shitting on himself with all this madness.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by Big Fo

It will be great seeing him lead the Vikings to a win in Lambeau.

It will great to see Favre make the Vikings throw 40 times in Lambeau, providing the best defense GB could hope for in keeping touches from Adrian Peterson. There's no way his ego lets him go back to Green Bay and through 10-15 passes while AP rushes 35 times. So, as a Packer fan, I think a Favre-led Vikings team is much less of a threat than one relying on Peterson and their defense.

[Matthean]

The really awkward moment comes when Brett finally gets into the Hall of Fame. Since he basically only has it out for a few people, it's still widely assumed he'll go in as a Packer, but after this it will be interesting to see just how Packer nation deals with it.

[Crim]

I'd say that after five years of actually retirement, most will be able to forgive and forget.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Please let this happen. I'd love to see Favre on the Vikings. It'd make the NFC Central pretty interesting.

[Crim]

Originally Posted by Crim

I'd say that after five years of actually retirement, most will be able to forgive and forget.

Frogot to add: except for Jas Lov

[Jas_lov]

Favre as a Viking has the potential to be hilarious because I can just see him trying to hard and throwing 4 picks a game. If it backfires on Favre, and the Packers are the ones who stick it to Favre, then it will all be worth it. I could forgive and forget if Favre had just retired after being released by the Jets, but him playing for the Vikings will tarnish his legacy for all Packer fans.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Crim

I'd say that after five years of actually retirement, most will be able to forgive and forget.

But can Favre forgive the Packers?

That's the real douchebag aspect of this, if it's true. It's all about vengeance for him. Because a team made a football decision (that was proven right).

[Matthean]

Just looked up their schedules and they play in week 4 and 8. I was kind of hoping the game at GB was late in the season when Favre seems to play worse due to an old body in cold weather. Nov. 1 is the latest they will play. Both teams have a decent chance of being 3-0 going into the first game and it's a Monday nighter so you know ESPN will beat this thing to death.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Please let this happen. I'd love to see Favre on the Vikings. It'd make the NFC Central pretty interesting.

This, plus Stafford, plus Cutler is going to make the NFC Central the DRAMA Central Division. Love it!

[Passacaglia]

And the drama will increase when the NFC North teams find out you've been calling it the NFC Central!

[PackerFanatic]

Originally Posted by Matthean

Just looked up their schedules and they play in week 4 and 8. I was kind of hoping the game at GB was late in the season when Favre seems to play worse due to an old body in cold weather. Nov. 1 is the latest they will play. Both teams have a decent chance of being 3-0 going into the first game and it's a Monday nighter so you know ESPN will beat this thing to death.

Doesn't matter where Favre might be - TK will beat this thing to death no matter what. If he happens to be playing for the Vikes, I will have to listen to the game on the radio because I will not be able to listen to TK.

[terpkristin]

Originally Posted by PackerFanatic

Doesn't matter where Favre might be - TK will beat this thing to death no matter what. If he happens to be playing for the Vikes, I will have to listen to the game on the radio because I will not be able to listen to TK.

I read this and couldn't figure out what I did.

Then I realize you're probably talking about Kornheiser.

/tk

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

And the drama will increase when the NFC North teams find out you've been calling it the NFC Central!

Save the DRAMA for your MAMA.

It's in the middle of the NHL playoffs, I can't be blamed for such things.

[flere-imsaho]

I knew something was wrong with calling it the NFC Central.....

/shame

[Qwikshot]

Originally Posted by terpkristin

I read this and couldn't figure out what I did.

Then I realize you're probably talking about Kornheiser.

/tk

I think you are tk, Tony must be TK.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Wait, he's seriously considering coming back? I just assumed this thread was a joke and didn't bother to read it. Then I heard this morning the report about him talking to the Vikings.

Before long, we'll have Steve DeBerg at QB for the Chiefs (broken pinky and all) with Christian Okoye in the backfield.

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by molson

But can Favre's Family forgive the Packers?

I think Favre's action are driven in large part by Bus Cook and his family. If Brett's Dad is alive, I don't think half this stuff happens.

[PackerFanatic]

Originally Posted by Mustang

I think Favre's action are driven in large part by Bus Cook and his family. If Brett's Dad is alive, I don't think half this stuff happens.

That is a damn good point.

[larrymcg421]

What will really be funny is when Favre plays like crap in the first 4 games, but the Vikings are 4-0 behind AP's running, we'll see a bunch of crap praising Favre for his leadership and knowing "how to win".

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I knew something was wrong with calling it the NFC Central.....

/shame

Seriously. You really have no good excuse. It's right for you to feel shame.