Brady - Manning

[Crapshoot]

Manning, by far. BRady is the Derek Jeter of football.

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Brady is the Derek Jeter of football.

Exactly.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

IMHO, there's no passion when he plays. He's like a machine. Watching the Thursday Night game with the Pats/Raiders, in the pre-game Brady is slapping guys and firing them up. I just don't see Manning doing that.

Here's my take:

Manning: He has a method to win. If that method is discombobulated, he can't execute and doesn't win.

Brady: Finds a way to win. If you stop him one way, he'll figure out another way.

2004/05 AFC Conference Semifinals

End of 3rd Quarter, New England 13, Indianapolis 3

1-10-IND25 (1:29) E.James left guard to IND 28 for 3 yards (V.Wilfork, T.Bruschi).
2-7-IND28 (:55) P.Manning pass to R.Wayne pushed ob at IND 41 for 13 yards (R.Gay).
1-10-IND41 (:20) E.James right end pushed ob at IND 40 for -1 yards (R.Harrison).
2-11-IND40 (15:00) P.Manning pass incomplete to E.James.
3-11-IND40 (14:55) (Shotgun) P.Manning pass incomplete to B.Stokley.
4-11-IND40 (14:47) H.Smith punts 54 yards to NE 6, Center-J.Snow, downed by IND-G.Sapp.

Late 4th Quarter, New England 20, Indianapolis 3

1-10-IND5 (2:59) (Shotgun) P.Manning pass incomplete to R.Wayne.
PENALTY on NE-H.Poteat, Defensive Holding, 5 yards, enforced at IND 5 - No Play.
1-10-IND10 (2:53) (Shotgun) P.Manning pass to B.Stokley to IND 23 for 13 yards (R.Harrison, D.Reid).
1-10-IND23 (2:31) (No Huddle, Shotgun) P.Manning pass incomplete to E.James (W.McGinest).
2-10-IND23 (2:26) (No Huddle, Shotgun) P.Manning right end to IND 30 for 7 yards (T.Bruschi).
3-3-IND30 (2:02) (No Huddle, Shotgun) P.Manning pass to E.James to IND 36 for 6 yards (A.Samuel).
1-10-IND36 (1:55) (Shotgun) P.Manning pass to E.James to IND 46 for 10 yards (R.Harrison).
1-10-IND46 (1:26) (No Huddle) P.Manning pass to B.Stokley to NE 48 for 6 yards (T.Brown).
2-4-NE48 (1:06) (No Huddle) P.Manning pass to M.Harrison to NE 45 for 3 yards (A.Samuel).
3-1-NE45 (:52) (No Huddle, Shotgun) P.Manning pass to M.Harrison ran ob at NE 36 for 9 yards.
1-10-NE36 (:47) (No Huddle, Shotgun) P.Manning pass incomplete to M.Harrison.
2-10-NE36 (:38) (Shotgun) P.Manning pass incomplete to D.Clark.
3-10-NE36 (:33) (No Huddle, Shotgun) P.Manning pass to D.Clark to NE 20 for 16 yards (D.Reid, R.Harrison).
1-10-NE20 (:12) (No Huddle, Shotgun) P.Manning pass intended for M.Harrison INTERCEPTED by R.Harrison at NE -3. R.Harrison ran ob at NE 6 for 9 yards.

Manning: 8/15, 0 points.

2005 Week 3, New England Patriots @ Pittsburgh Steelers

New England's 4th Quarter Drives

1-10-NE14 (14:19) T.Brady pass to D.Givens pushed ob at NE 28 for 14 yards (D.Townsend).
1-10-NE28 (13:55) T.Brady pass to D.Branch to NE 36 for 8 yards (I.Taylor).
2-2-NE36 (13:12) T.Brady pass to T.Brown to PIT 45 for 19 yards (I.Taylor, C.Hope).
1-10-PIT45 (12:31) T.Brady pass to T.Brown to PIT 40 for 5 yards (R.Colclough).
2-5-PIT40 (11:57) C.Dillon up the middle to PIT 37 for 3 yards (J.Farrior, C.Haggans).
3-2-PIT37 (11:14) (Shotgun) T.Brady pass to D.Givens to PIT 7 for 30 yards (C.Hope).
1-7-PIT7 (10:46) C.Dillon right end for 7 yards, TOUCHDOWN.
A.Vinatieri extra point is GOOD, Center-L.Paxton, Holder-J.Miller.

New England Patriots at 07:27
1-10-NE24 (7:27) T.Brady pass to D.Givens to NE 36 for 12 yards (C.Hope, L.Foote).
1-10-NE36 (6:44) T.Brady pass to C.Dillon to PIT 45 for 19 yards (D.Townsend).
1-10-PIT45 (6:01) T.Brady pass to D.Givens to PIT 25 for 20 yards (C.Hope, J.Farrior).
1-10-PIT25 (5:19) P.Pass up the middle to PIT 20 for 5 yards (J.Farrior).
2-5-PIT20 (4:44) C.Dillon up the middle to PIT 20 for no gain (C.Haggans, J.Farrior).
3-5-PIT20 (4:07) (Shotgun) T.Brady pass to K.Faulk to PIT 17 for 3 yards (I.Taylor).
4-2-PIT17 (3:23) A.Vinatieri 35 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-L.Paxton, Holder-J.Miller.

New England Patriots at 01:14
1-10-NE38 (1:14) (Shotgun) T.Brady pass to K.Faulk pushed ob at PIT 45 for 17 yards (J.Farrior).
1-10-PIT45 (1:06) (Shotgun) T.Brady pass to P.Pass ran ob at PIT 31 for 14 yards. Penalty on PIT-D.Townsend, Illegal Contact, declined.
1-10-PIT31 (:57) C.Dillon up the middle to PIT 31 for no gain (C.Haggans, C.Hampton).
2-10-PIT31 (:50) T.Brady pass to D.Givens to PIT 25 for 6 yards (I.Taylor).
3-4-PIT25 (:05) A.Vinatieri 43 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-L.Paxton, Holder-J.Miller.

Brady: 12/12, 13 points

[Daimyo]

I'd love to see how Brady would have faired the last four seasons against New England in the playoffs.

I doubt Manning on New England could have done much better than Brady (although I'd guess they'd have won 2 or 3 SB anyway). However, put Brady on the Colts of the last four seasons and they don't even make the playoffs in any of the seasons.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Daimyo

I'd love to see how Brady would have faired the last four seasons against New England in the playoffs.

A Brady divided against itself cannot stand.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Daimyo

I'd love to see how Brady would have faired the last four seasons against New England in the playoffs.

I doubt Manning on New England could have done much better than Brady (although I'd guess they'd have won 2 or 3 SB anyway). However, put Brady on the Colts of the last four seasons and they don't even make the playoffs in any of the seasons.

So you don't think that Brady could have taken that offense to the playoffs? I think Ryan Leaf could win with Harrison and James.

[Radii]

Huh, so what does it say about me that I pick Manning today, but Montana over Marino? I am confused.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

So you don't think that Brady could have taken that offense to the playoffs? I think Ryan Leaf could win with Harrison and James.

Just ask Jake Plummer....


Assumption: Denver RB + Rod Smith >= Harrison and James

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Just ask Jake Plummer....


Assumption: Denver RB + Rod Smith >= Harrison and James

I didn't really mean I literally think that Ryan Leaf could take the Colts to the playoffs. Although maybe someone should create a 06 Ryan Leaf in Madden and find out.

The idea that Brady couldn't take that type of talent to the playoffs is crazy though.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

I didn't really mean I literally think that Ryan Leaf could take the Colts to the playoffs. Although maybe someone should create a 06 Ryan Leaf in Madden and find out.

The idea that Brady couldn't take that type of talent to the playoffs is crazy though.

Agreed.

But so is the idea that Manning couldn't win 3 or 4 Super Bowls with the Pats.

[molson]

People forget how little Brady has had around him offensively, especially before Dillon arrived. He won 2 SBs with no running game, and with very lightly-regarded WRs. And while the Defense has come up huge in the playoffs (certainly helped by Brady never making mistakes), it has consistently remained pretty spotty against the run. To say Brady couldn't make the playoffs with the Colts weapons is silly.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Agreed.

But so is the idea that Manning couldn't win 3 or 4 Super Bowls with the Pats.

Where are we getting this 4 crap?

So your contention is that Manning wins 4 straight Super Bowls on NE. Uh, ok.

[jeff061]

But so is the idea that Manning couldn't win 3 or 4 Super Bowls with the Pats.

I guess if you don't know anything about Brady or the Pats.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Where are we getting this 4 crap?

So your contention is that Manning wins 4 straight Super Bowls on NE. Uh, ok.

My contention is that Manning has as much chance (or better) to win Super Bowls in NE as Brady does.

Would he win 4? Maybe, Maybe not. Would he win 3? All else being exactly equal as it was for Brady... probably...

[jeff061]

I guess it'd be an impossible swap anyways, since NE would have to cut half their team to afford him.

[Desnudo]

I think Willie McGinnest would have given Manning a Code Red after one week on the team, resulting in his father demanding a trade to the Giants.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

I think Willie McGinnest would have given Manning a Code Red after one week on the team, resulting in his father demanding a trade to the Giants.

Brilliant!, give that man a guiness.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by wade moore

My contention is that Manning has as much chance (or better) to win Super Bowls in NE as Brady does.

Would he win 4? Maybe, Maybe not. Would he win 3? All else being exactly equal as it was for Brady... probably...

that's silly. you think he/Weiss/Belichick gel like they have? you think he's as adaptive and capable in bad weather and field conditions? you think he directs game winning superbowl drives?

if you can see all that then you are clearly omnipotent.

I don't know if he could or not but I certainly wouldn't say he has an equal chance nor would I say that Brady would somehow magically propel the Colts either.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by jeff061

I guess it'd be an impossible swap anyways, since NE would have to cut half their team to afford him.

Manning didn't get a big money contract until i believe last year or this past offseason.. so not true through most of the run...

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

I think Willie McGinnest would have given Manning a Code Red after one week on the team, resulting in his father demanding a trade to the Giants.

Brilliant!

[VPI97]

All the Brady ass kissing in this thread is hilarious. You guys make him out to be God.

[Desnudo]

Ninny

[rkmsuf]

This post has been reported for Brady ass kissing.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by VPI97

All the Brady ass kissing in this thread is hilarious. You guys make him out to be God.

Let me know when Ron Mexico has 3 Super Bowl rings.

[st.cronin]

Hey, all I know is if, heaven forbid, someday I needed incredibly dangerous brain surgery, and I could choose between Manning and Brady as my surgeon, I'm going with Brady.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Let me know when Ron Mexico has 3 Super Bowl rings.

My thoughts exactly, the proof is in the pudding or so they say. I like Manning and my first thought was, "I would take Manning"... but Brady finds a way to win, and winning is what he does.

[jeff061]

And do you really want to watch pre-snap Manning over and over again? Annoying does not cover it.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Hey, all I know is if, heaven forbid, someday I needed incredibly dangerous brain surgery, and I could choose between Manning and Brady as my surgeon, I'm going with Brady.

Unless the operation is being performed in a dome on Astroturf.

[Danny]

I really like Manning, and in the past I would have taken Manning, but Brady has proven too much over the past few years. I take Brady.

[vtbub]

No question that Peyton Manning is a Hall of Fame quarterback, but he's isn't the field general Brady is.

Brady is 9-0 in post-season.

[rkmsuf]

Everybody always detracts from Brady because he's on this juggernaut. Hello, hardly were they favored.

Starting with Indy...last year, opening night people thought it was Manning time...loss. At Indy, ooh it's Manning time...loss. Playoffs, this is Manning time...loss. Pats were never heavily favored if favored at all. I guarantee you early in the Brady era the Colts were favored.

In Pittsburgh, Steelers favored, Pats win. Super Bowl, Pats what, -17 point underdog...they win.

It's not like Brady is on some super team always predicted to crush people on both sides of the ball. It's execution and the intangibles of leadership, guts and teamwork. Manning has had the same opportunities.

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Let me know when Ron Mexico has 3 Super Bowl rings.

Wow. You sure showed me.

Of course, that doesn't change the fact that the best quarterback in the NFL does not necessarily equal the quarterback who wins the championship, no matter how much you want to argue that it does.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Everybody always detracts from Brady because he's on this juggernaut. Hello, hardly were they favored.

Starting with Indy...last year, opening night people thought it was Manning time...loss. At Indy, ooh it's Manning time...loss. Playoffs, this is Manning time...loss. Pats were never heavily favored if favored at all. I guarantee you early in the Brady era the Colts were favored.

In Pittsburgh, Steelers favored, Pats win. Super Bowl, Pats what, -17 point underdog...they win.

It's not like Brady is on some super team always predicted to crush people on both sides of the ball. It's execution and the intangibles of leadership, guts and teamwork. Manning has had the same opportunities.

Again.

How does Brady do against the Pats if the roles are reversed?

Not so good.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Again.

How does Brady do against the Pats if the roles are reversed?

Not so good.

So he can do good against every other team favored against him but not the Pats because the Pats have the magic dust.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Again.

How does Brady do against the Pats if the roles are reversed?

Not so good.

I don't see how you can make that comment, unless you're seeing their first teams go against each other in practice.

[Eilim]

Originally Posted by VPI97

Of course, that doesn't change the fact that the best quarterback in the NFL does not necessarily equal the quarterback who wins the championship, no matter how much you want to argue that it does.

I agree fully. I also think Manning is a great quarterback, BUT..

I'd also say that guady stats put up surrounded by arguably one of the most talented (not including himself in the equation) offenses in the league does not make him the best quarterback in the nfl.

While it may be a bit overdoing it due to my patriots bias, (like I said, I do think Manning is a great Quarterback.) I have *always* thought Manning had a bit of the "Warner/Greatest show on turf effect" going for him.

*runs and hides from all the rabid "Warner in his Prime" fans*

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by VPI97

Wow. You sure showed me.

Of course, that doesn't change the fact that the best quarterback in the NFL does not necessarily equal the quarterback who wins the championship, no matter how much you want to argue that it does.

To me the best QB in the NFL is the one you want with the ball down a score with 2 minutes on the clock. That QB is not Manning. If you want a QB who will pile up individual records, Manning is your man though.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Radii

Huh, so what does it say about me that I pick Manning today, but Montana over Marino? I am confused.

Well, we have the luxery or judging Montana and Marino off of their whole careers. Manning and Brady still have at least half of their career to go. For all we know, Brady could flame out and be average for 7 or 8 years and Manning could go on to win a few Super Bowls in that time.

Let's not forget the coach Manning has had to endure in some of his years. You think anyone is going to win with Jim Mora as their head coach? And what if you put any other coach on the sideline for Brady? Hell, forget switching Brady and Manning's team. Put Jim Mora on the Patriots and Bill Belicheck on the Colts. Who does better now?

BUT, this is all just speculation and I can only go by what I have in front of me. What I have is one QB who has all the talent in the world, who is without a doubt the most skillful quarterback in the league, and a QB who may not be the most skillful, but who not only wins, but wins when the game is on the line.

Got to go with Brady. He just doesn't seem to make any mistake when it's clutch time, and that's Manning's biggest problem.

EDIT: Biggest problem, so far. Like I said, that could easily change now that the Colts have bought into Tony Dungy's mindset. I'm sure it took some work for Dungy to repair all of the damage Jim Mora did.

[Raiders Army]

Personally I dislike both, but I can at least respect Brady for what he's accomplished. Again, the intangibles are what puts him over the top. He's a team player, doesn't beat his chest, and consistently goes out there and plays well. Manning's a team player, doesn't beat his chest, but does not consistently go out there and play well.

[RendeR]

what it comes down to is this:

Put brady and Manning in as the starting QB in San Francisco last season, how many games does each guy win? Does either guy take THAT team to the playoffs?

I put my house on manning winning more games AND making the playoffs, he has that level of talent and leadership.

brady wins maybe 8 games because he Doesn't have the same level of ability and may indeed be an equal leader on teh field. Brady doesn't make the playoffs.


In my mind this places Manning ahead of Brady. I won't say Brady isn't a damn good QB, he is, but he has also had the single BEST overall team around him the last 4 seasons. Manning had the best Offense, but the Colts special teams and defense sucked balls.

Manning is a better Quarterback. brady is a better role player.

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

To me the best QB in the NFL is the one you want with the ball down a score with 2 minutes on the clock.

According to what I've read, Brady has 13 fourth quarter comebacks in the regular season (in 67 games)...Manning has 23 in 115 games. That's not much of a difference.

Granted, Brady has also done it in the Super Bowl, but I don't see how anyone could say that Manning couldn't do the same thing...he's just on a weaker team and hasn't had the opportunity.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by VPI97

According to what I've read, Brady has 13 fourth quarter comebacks in the regular season (in 67 games)...Manning has 23 in 115 games. That's not much of a difference.

Granted, Brady has also done it in the Super Bowl, but I don't see how anyone could say that Manning couldn't do the same thing...he's just on a weaker team and hasn't had the opportunity.

There's a reason he hasn't had the opportunity...himself.

[Mr. Wednesday]

If you want to count comeback ability, I think you should use a better metric than total games played, because that clearly does not capture the number of opportunities. I have no idea whether that corrected accounting would favor one player or the other, not having done it.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by VPI97

According to what I've read, Brady has 13 fourth quarter comebacks in the regular season (in 67 games)...Manning has 23 in 115 games. That's not much of a difference.

Granted, Brady has also done it in the Super Bowl, but I don't see how anyone could say that Manning couldn't do the same thing...he's just on a weaker team and hasn't had the opportunity.

I'm not talking about 15 minute comebacks. I mean an all-or-nothing situation where you score or lose. Manning has not had the weaker team in those situations as the Colts offense is stronger than New England.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by sabotai

Got to go with Brady. He just doesn't seem to make any mistake when it's clutch time, and that's Manning's biggest problem.

Or, sometimes he clearly fumbles and the other team recovers the ball, but due to a stupid obscure rule on the books, his fumble is ruled an incomplete pass. And then his team goes on to win the Super Bowl.

[Desnudo]

Even though the fumble was caused by an illegal head slap.

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

I'm not talking about 15 minute comebacks. I mean an all-or-nothing situation where you score or lose. Manning has not had the weaker team in those situations as the Colts offense is stronger than New England.

But now you're just going on the assumption that Manning doesn't stack up. I don't think they keep any stats of that kind, so there's no way to tell whether Brady or Manning have the advantage there.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Kodos

Or, sometimes he clearly fumbles and the other team recovers the ball, but due to a stupid obscure rule on the books, his fumble is ruled an incomplete pass. And then his team goes on to win the Super Bowl.

Well....stupid or not, if the rulebook clearly stated it was an incomplete pass and not a fumble, then it's not a fumble. A fumble is what the rulebook says it is, not what you want it to be.

And besides, Oakland had their chance the next season. What happened in that game?

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by VPI97

But now you're just going on the assumption that Manning doesn't stack up. I don't think they keep any stats of that kind, so there's no way to tell whether Brady or Manning have the advantage there.

I'm not assuming that Manning doesn't stack up, I know he doesn't. If I had to have one QB to score once to win, it would be Brady.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

So he can do good against every other team favored against him but not the Pats because the Pats have the magic dust.

Yes. It's called Bill Belicheck who has made many a powerful offense look mediocre.