Middle East - what's next - Page 2

Crapshoot · 07-13-2006, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

I say we give Israel all the hardware it wants, and turn them loose. Seriously. If Canada and Mexico refused to acknowledge the right of the USA to exist, and were constantly sending suicide bombers over the boarder, we'd have blown them back to the jurassic by now.

Yes, because that's exactly what happened.

JonInMiddleGA · 07-13-2006, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grammaticus

Latest News:
An extremist organization called the “Gilad Shalhevet Brigades” claimed it kidnapped two Palestinians, residents of the Jerusalem area. In a statement issued by the groups it was said that the hostages will be released only in exchange for the Israeli soldiers abducted in Gaza and Lebanon.

Hmm ... I don't think they thought this move through very well. I'd say there's a better chance of the Israeli soldiers being released because FOFC said to do it than there is of them being exchanged for a random pair of Palestinians.

JonInMiddleGA · 07-13-2006, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

I say we give Israel all the hardware it wants, and turn them loose.

That's what should have been done years ago, but since it hasn't happened already I'd say there's about zero chance of it happening now.

Crapshoot · 07-13-2006, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

That's what should have been done years ago, but since it hasn't happened already I'd say there's about zero chance of it happening now.

Uh - Israel's been able to buy everything they wanted from the US for quite some time - I believe the only restrictions are on them transferring stuff to other countries (like pre-apartheid South Africa). They're also the no 1 reciever of US aid - which is absurd for a first world country.

JonInMiddleGA · 07-13-2006, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Uh - Israel's been able to buy everything they wanted from the US for quite some time

Buying it and being cleared to use it are two dramatically different thing, and you know that as well as I do.

They aren't lacking the materials, they're lacking the "turned loose" part.

Franklinnoble · 07-13-2006, 01:45 PM

A defensive war is a losing war. That's the problem Israel has had. They only break out the big guns when they're invaded... it's all reactionary, and generally kept within their own borders.

Their military is superior to any other in the middle east, excluding our own. If they weren't so restrained, they could be doing a lot of damage over there.

rexallllsc · 07-13-2006, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

I say we give Israel all the hardware it wants, and turn them loose. Seriously. If Canada and Mexico refused to acknowledge the right of the USA to exist, and were constantly sending suicide bombers over the boarder, we'd have blown them back to the jurassic by now.

How about we just let Israel solve it's own problems? They have plenty of hardware and their government runs on a surplus.

rexallllsc · 07-13-2006, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

Their military is superior to any other in the middle east, excluding our own. If they weren't so restrained, they could be doing a lot of damage over there.

2 Israeli soldiers captured
45 civilians killed in Israeli attacks. Restrained?

JonInMiddleGA · 07-13-2006, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

Restrained?

Yes. Extremely restrained.

The fact that there's been two stones left stacked together for the past several decades is more restraint than I believe is warranted.

rexallllsc · 07-13-2006, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Yes. Extremely restrained.

The fact that there's been two stones left stacked together for the past several decades is more restraint than I believe is warranted.

Oh well. To be honest I really wouldn't care if we would just stay out of it. Unfortunately, we'll probably meddle.

Grammaticus · 07-13-2006, 01:53 PM

I don't think those numbers are correct, at least not anymore. I think there are more of both and Israeli citizens have been killed as well. If not just today.

JonInMiddleGA · 07-13-2006, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

Unfortunately, we'll probably meddle.

I would support that wholeheartedly.

We share mutual enemies, and the Israeli's are far more palatable as allies than were, say, the Soviets in the 40's.

rowech · 07-13-2006, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sachmo71

i was refering to the rocks comment. thought your dad might be as well.

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

I have heard that quote from him before but there's no way my father in law was quick enough to pull that one off. Not sure if he would have ever read a thing about Einstein.

rowech · 07-13-2006, 02:13 PM

Israel would wipe the floor with the small nations that are over there and I agree with what some have said. If the world didn't hold them back, often times we're the ones that convince them not to do anything, they very well could run the majority of that area.

Galaxy · 07-13-2006, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

The Lebanese government isn't strong enough to disarm and take out Hezbollah. It moves against them and there is a long, drawn out civil war, which would probably end with a stalemate peace with Hezbollah in more control of Southern Lebanon.

This idea that no matter how strong a government is (and the new anti-Syria government was just getting starting) it should control guerillas or terrorist groups in their territory (no matter how strong that group is) is utterly ridiculous.

If Isreal just went after Hezbollah and their leadership in Southern Lebanon, the Lebanese government would probably be privately thankful. No country likes to have a power goverment-like group in its borders. If they could have gotten rid of the Syria backed Hezbollah (as they did with Syrian forces a year ago) they would.

Never said it was what should happen, just was is happening, with the expection I mispoke on the government was doing being forced to do it themselves, but that they were resisting international pressure.

Galaxy · 07-13-2006, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rowech

Israel would wipe the floor with the small nations that are over there and I agree with what some have said. If the world didn't hold them back, often times we're the ones that convince them not to do anything, they very well could run the majority of that area.

Could Israel take on a multi-Arab nation force?

ISiddiqui · 07-13-2006, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Never said it was what should happen, just was is happening, with the expection I mispoke on the government was doing being forced to do it themselves, but that they were resisting international pressure.

Fair 'nuff.

---

Anyway, the one thing the US should REALLY watch out for is if Isreal decides to go after Syria and this thing total explodes into a Pan-Arabian war. The reason is because the Iraq government will not go the way we wish. It could go even worse for us in Iraq as a result.

cartman · 07-13-2006, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Could Israel take on a multi-Arab nation force?

Reference 1967 for proof of this ability.

rowech · 07-13-2006, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cartman

Reference 1967 for proof of this ability.

I was going to say the same thing.

rexallllsc · 07-13-2006, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rowech

Israel would wipe the floor with the small nations that are over there and I agree with what some have said. If the world didn't hold them back, often times we're the ones that convince them not to do anything, they very well could run the majority of that area.

The abused child becomes the abusive parent. How ironic.

Edward64 · 07-13-2006, 05:24 PM

Rowech, Cartman. 1967 was a long time ago. The multi-arab force could be more than just conventional forces that were defeated. I am not confident that Israel could survive a dogfight by itself (ex. without US help) if it came to a full-fledge fight.

cartman · 07-13-2006, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward64

Rowech, Cartman. 1967 was a long time ago. The multi-arab force could be more than just conventional forces that were defeated. I am not confident that Israel could survive a dogfight by itself (ex. without US help) if it came to a full-fledge fight.

Israel still has the technological advantage. The Arab states have mainly 15 to 20 year old Soviet technology like the T72 and MiGs. The Israelis have basically a mini stockpile of American technology, and they watched closely how we used the stuff in both Iraqi conflicts over the past 15 years.

Crapshoot · 07-13-2006, 06:11 PM

And the Israeli's now have pushed the ante by bombing the highways - in effect, civilian targets at this point.

Edward64 · 07-13-2006, 06:30 PM

Damn war. My 401K/IRA going down the tubes.

No doubt the war is unsettling the markets.

Any financial advisors here? I'm not optimistic that the market will move up and will continue going down until the Middle East situation stabilizes.

Buccaneer · 07-13-2006, 06:50 PM

Things will always change, both for the worse and for the better. So far, the moderate Arab states are basically shrugging their shoulders, which is really pissing off the hard-liners (esp. equating them with being in league with the Zionists). Israel has done this before (making a statement) but this time they don't want land - just a buffer zone and a big sign that says leave the fuck alone.

Franklinnoble · 07-13-2006, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

And the Israeli's now have pushed the ante by bombing the highways - in effect, civilian targets at this point.

Hardly a purely civilian target.

Crapshoot · 07-13-2006, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

Hardly a purely civilian target.

Agreed, but the photos seem to show it being chok full of cars trying to leave the country and what not.

Young Drachma · 07-13-2006, 07:43 PM

This situation is going to get a lot worse before it gets better. And surely we're going to add fuel to the fire at some point, so we can just raze the entire middle east, assuming we'll get what we want in doing so.

Which of course, isn't true.

I had a friend who's studying here and was home visiting for a month. He managed to get out of Beruit, just before they bombed the airport coming in yesterday at like 3am or something.

duckman · 07-13-2006, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Agreed, but the photos seem to show it being chok full of cars trying to leave the country and what not.

Maybe so, but it also serves as a way for supplies to enter the country. Textbook war strategy. The good part,for Israel, is that the enemy cannot get new weapons and such, but the bad part is that the civilians cannot get food, medicine, etc. I hope that they find a way to bring humanitarian aid to the one that need it.

Galaxy · 07-13-2006, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward64

Damn war. My 401K/IRA going down the tubes.

No doubt the war is unsettling the markets.

Any financial advisors here? I'm not optimistic that the market will move up and will continue going down until the Middle East situation stabilizes.

That came out of no where.

sachmo71 · 07-13-2006, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

This situation is going to get a lot worse before it gets better. And surely we're going to add fuel to the fire at some point, so we can just raze the entire middle east, assuming we'll get what we want in doing so.

Which of course, isn't true.

I had a friend who's studying here and was home visiting for a month. He managed to get out of Beruit, just before they bombed the airport coming in yesterday at like 3am or something.

I chuckled reading the first line of this post and glancing at your username.

Edward64 · 07-13-2006, 09:25 PM

Galaxy. Yeah, I know. I'll start another thread.

bronconick · 07-13-2006, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

A defensive war is a losing war. That's the problem Israel has had. They only break out the big guns when they're invaded... it's all reactionary, and generally kept within their own borders.

Their military is superior to any other in the middle east, excluding our own. If they weren't so restrained, they could be doing a lot of damage over there.

I also think they tend not to want to go over to a purely offensive mode because they always end up with more land full of Arabs that hate them. They could probably take most of Syria under their control if they felt like it, but that's more annoyance then help in their eyes.

stevew · 07-13-2006, 09:53 PM

Fill up tomorrow. This fucking blows.

SackAttack · 07-13-2006, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevew

Fill up tomorrow. This fucking blows.

Frankly, I'm not sure where the first half of that attitude serves any real purpose.

If you fill up, okay, that's a half a tank of gas (or whatever) for $3.35 (or whatever your current gas price is), and just further encourages the station owner to raise the price of gas. If there's a run, after all, why risk selling it all at a lower price if you can get more for it?

Then, of course, when you buy your second tank of gas, and you pay $3.50 or $3.55 for it, that's 20 cents a gallon. On a 20 gallon tank, that's an extra 4 bucks you're spending.

Nothing against you personally, but filling up tomorrow to save two bucks (half a tank) just strikes me as behavior that plays directly into the hands of the oil companies. If the price of gas is going up anyway, wouldn't you be better off making lifestyle changes to reduce your consumption of gasoline, such as carpooling, than going for a knee-jerk fill-up of your gas tank?

Dutch · 07-13-2006, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

And the Israeli's now have pushed the ante by bombing the highways - in effect, civilian targets at this point.

The terrorists probably should have thought about that before they instigated with acts of war. Do you at least agree with that?

molson · 07-13-2006, 10:13 PM

Oil's gone up 200% in two years, and the last 2 years really haven't been THAT eventful, relative to potential. When Ahmadinejad makes a pointed comment, prices go up $3/barrel. If the next two years have sustained actual conflicts involving Iran/Israel, what then?

Oil prices are either a speculative bubble subject to collapse (which inventory numbers seem to dispute), or our economy and society could dramatically change very, very quickly.

Edward64 · 07-13-2006, 10:18 PM

Regardless to the history of Israel/Lebanon/Palestine et al. and who started this latest conflict etc... I've always thought that clear cut military is fair game but never clear-cut civilians.

Ex. Attack on Israeli military/reserve unit is fair game. Attack on Hamas rocket positions and Hamas leadership is fair game.

Ex. Attack on an Israeli pizza parlor or bus is not. Attack on Lebanese civilians (or at least a high potential of hurting them) is not.

I can't help but believe Israel has lost the 'high moral ground' so far. This is not to say they are wrong in wanting to get their military troops back, but the damage they are inflicting on clear-cut civilians hurts their image.

I guess the argument is that Hamas and Hezbollah hide within the ranks of the civilians and therefore there will be unevitable collateral damage. I can see this argument but the latest Israeli reaction/offensive seems pretty indiscriminate to me.

stevew · 07-13-2006, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SackAttack

Nothing against you personally, but filling up tomorrow to save two bucks (half a tank) just strikes me as behavior that plays directly into the hands of the oil companies. If the price of gas is going up anyway, wouldn't you be better off making lifestyle changes to reduce your consumption of gasoline, such as carpooling, than going for a knee-jerk fill-up of your gas tank?

you've just got all the answers there big guy.

I have never heard of carpooling or reducing consumption, I haven't been trying to do anything of that nature at all

The price is going to go up regardless of whether i fill up my car tomorrow or not, but I will at least feel somewhat better about a situation I have no control over with my finite resources.

I live in buttfuck egypt, and don't make a lot of money, unfortunately to drive to my shit job is pretty costly right now. And it's going to be 5 dollars or some shit within a few months most likely.

SackAttack · 07-13-2006, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevew

you've just got all the answers there big guy.

And rolling your eyes negates the point. Powerful debate tactic, that. I'm going to have to remember it the next time Jon and I get into a scrap!

Quote:

I have never heard of carpooling or reducing consumption, I haven't been trying to do anything of that nature at all.

Not suggesting you haven't been. Only saying that doing that is probably going to do you more good than filling up tomorrow as a knee-jerk reaction. Gas prices are going to go up regardless, and filling up to save a couple of bucks almost ensures that you're going to give that couple of bucks back faster than otherwise you might.

Quote:

The price is going to go up regardless of whether i fill up my car tomorrow or not, but I will at least feel somewhat better about a situation I have no control over with my finite resources.

Yes, precisely, they will. So contributing to a more rapid increase in that rise, which will drain your resources more quickly, makes you feel better about a situation over which none of us have any control? I'm not sure I follow.

Quote:

I live in buttfuck egypt, and don't make a lot of money, unfortunately to drive to my shit job is pretty costly right now. And it's going to be 5 dollars or some shit within a few months most likely.

Welcome to my life, except for the bit about living in buttfuck, egypt.

I don't make much money either, and yeah, driving to work costs one hell of a lot more than I'd like.

But that still doesn't help me see how a knee-jerk fill-up is going to make that situation any better for me in the long run.

Again, I'm not aiming at you specifically when I say these things. I'm addressing the mindset behind an attitude that you are not alone in expressing.

Buccaneer · 07-13-2006, 11:20 PM

Quote:

And it's going to be 5 dollars or some shit within a few months most likely.

When someone cries this enough time, it might actually be right. Aren't we supposed to have been there already?

I have a suggestion: Stop going to the news sites and their BIG FONT headlines.

JonInMiddleGA · 07-13-2006, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevew

And it's going to be 5 dollars or some shit within a few months most likely.

And if it is ... it is.

Not one damned bit of positive impact will come from you worrying about it, and not really one damned thing you can do prevent it.

stevew · 07-13-2006, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And if it is ... it is.

Not one damned bit of positive impact will come from you worrying about it, and not really one damned thing you can do prevent it.

Tis true, I'm in a bad mood right now, got a lot of shit going on, can't get my fucking calipers off the front of my car, looks like I'll have to take it in for pads. Wife had a good job interview on monday, might be carpetbagging(bristol TN) again in august, will have to get my shit together to move very quickly and it's stressing me out badly.

JonInMiddleGA · 07-14-2006, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevew

Tis true, I'm in a bad mood right now, got a lot of shit going on, ... and it's stressing me out badly.

Dude, I kinda had a feeling it was something beyond gas prices

You've got plenty on your plate already, so my unsolicited advice is to focus on the stuff you can do something about & leave the other shit alone for a while, no sense in borrowing extra worries when you ain't got no shortage.

Franklinnoble · 07-14-2006, 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward64

I can't help but believe Israel has lost the 'high moral ground' so far. T

Uhh, no.

Lebanese launched missiles at the nearest big city across the border, indiscriminately aiming into a densely populated civilian target. The Israelis are more than justified in making sure it's a little more difficult to drive additional truckloads of them within range again by surgically removing a piece of highway.

Edward64 · 07-14-2006, 05:12 AM

Franklinnoble. There's no doubt who was attacked first in this latest round of Lebanon/Israeli conflict. Regardless, there needs to be a distinction between Lebanon and Hezbollah.

Qwikshot · 07-14-2006, 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward64

Franklinnoble. There's no doubt who was attacked first in this latest round of Lebanon/Israeli conflict. Regardless, there needs to be a distinction between Lebanon and Hezbollah.

There is a distinction but it doesn't matter. Israel is concerned about self-preservation. If Iran gets the bomb, then Israel will be in serious trouble. Syria has supported the Hezzbollah in Lebanon and they've done their best to incite. Hamas in Palestine is no better. Has Israel invited some of this with their actions in the past few months, I would say yes, but once it's on, it's on. If they destroy Lebanon and Syria, then they only have a few outlets to fear, and Palestine will have to comply because there will be little backing support from anywhere, save Iran.

rowech · 07-14-2006, 07:26 AM

Like all good terrorists, these guys are cowards. Hide amoung civilians, don't come out and fight, hold their own people hostage with threats of killing, etc. Yet, they are the hardest group to fight for these exact reasons. The wars being fought today are not being fought against traditional "here's our border, there's your border" countries.

As for gas...I never understand this...certainly it sucks but you have to have it. There's nothing else most of us can do short of riding a bicycle/walking so if that's not an option, we have to fill it up and accept that it is what it is.

Blame car companies for continuing with this crap. If they would hurry up and figure something out our dependence on this volitaile region would all but be gone.

Young Drachma · 07-14-2006, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SackAttack

If the price of gas is going up anyway, wouldn't you be better off making lifestyle changes to reduce your consumption of gasoline, such as carpooling, than going for a knee-jerk fill-up of your gas tank?

Not everyone lives in civilization. It's just not an option for a lot of people to carpool and public transportation is non-existant in most of the country. At least, in a worthwhile manner anyway.

ISiddiqui · 07-14-2006, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qwikshot

There is a distinction but it doesn't matter. Israel is concerned about self-preservation. If Iran gets the bomb, then Israel will be in serious trouble. Syria has supported the Hezzbollah in Lebanon and they've done their best to incite. Hamas in Palestine is no better. Has Israel invited some of this with their actions in the past few months, I would say yes, but once it's on, it's on. If they destroy Lebanon and Syria, then they only have a few outlets to fear, and Palestine will have to comply because there will be little backing support from anywhere, save Iran.

Problem is this, the current Lebanese government is fairly new (like a year old). It is the one that kicked Syrian troops out after the assasination of a prominant anti-Syrian Lebanese politician who also happened to be the Prime Minister (the "Cedar Revolution"). It is also a pro-US government. If Isreal destroys Lebanon, then the result is going to be a pro-Iran, anti-US force taking over the governance of the area, which in the long run is not good for Isreal.

Isreal, if they'd been thinking, should have said in the beginning, that they are just going after Hezbollah, not Lebanon and maybe even gotten Lebanese help (they don't really like Hezbollah, but they live with them because they have to).

07-13-2006, 07:43 PM	#78
Young Drachma Dark Cloud Join Date: Apr 2001	This situation is going to get a lot worse before it gets better. And surely we're going to add fuel to the fire at some point, so we can just raze the entire middle east, assuming we'll get what we want in doing so. Which of course, isn't true. I had a friend who's studying here and was home visiting for a month. He managed to get out of Beruit, just before they bombed the airport coming in yesterday at like 3am or something. __________________ FBCB / FPB3 Mods

07-13-2006, 10:13 PM	#87
molson General Manager Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: The Mountains	Oil's gone up 200% in two years, and the last 2 years really haven't been THAT eventful, relative to potential. When Ahmadinejad makes a pointed comment, prices go up $3/barrel. If the next two years have sustained actual conflicts involving Iran/Israel, what then? Oil prices are either a speculative bubble subject to collapse (which inventory numbers seem to dispute), or our economy and society could dramatically change very, very quickly. Last edited by molson : 07-13-2006 at 10:29 PM.

07-13-2006, 01:45 PM	#56
Franklinnoble Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Placerville, CA	A defensive war is a losing war. That's the problem Israel has had. They only break out the big guns when they're invaded... it's all reactionary, and generally kept within their own borders. Their military is superior to any other in the middle east, excluding our own. If they weren't so restrained, they could be doing a lot of damage over there.

07-13-2006, 01:53 PM	#61
Grammaticus Pro Rookie Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Tennessee	I don't think those numbers are correct, at least not anymore. I think there are more of both and Israeli citizens have been killed as well. If not just today.

07-13-2006, 02:13 PM	#64
rowech Pro Starter Join Date: Feb 2006	Israel would wipe the floor with the small nations that are over there and I agree with what some have said. If the world didn't hold them back, often times we're the ones that convince them not to do anything, they very well could run the majority of that area.

07-13-2006, 05:24 PM	#71
Edward64 Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2005	Rowech, Cartman. 1967 was a long time ago. The multi-arab force could be more than just conventional forces that were defeated. I am not confident that Israel could survive a dogfight by itself (ex. without US help) if it came to a full-fledge fight.

07-13-2006, 06:11 PM	#73
Crapshoot Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Dec 2003	And the Israeli's now have pushed the ante by bombing the highways - in effect, civilian targets at this point.

07-13-2006, 06:30 PM	#74
Edward64 Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2005	Damn war. My 401K/IRA going down the tubes. No doubt the war is unsettling the markets. Any financial advisors here? I'm not optimistic that the market will move up and will continue going down until the Middle East situation stabilizes.

07-13-2006, 06:50 PM	#75
Buccaneer Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Colorado	Things will always change, both for the worse and for the better. So far, the moderate Arab states are basically shrugging their shoulders, which is really pissing off the hard-liners (esp. equating them with being in league with the Zionists). Israel has done this before (making a statement) but this time they don't want land - just a buffer zone and a big sign that says leave the fuck alone.

07-13-2006, 09:25 PM	#82
Edward64 Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2005	Galaxy. Yeah, I know. I'll start another thread.

07-13-2006, 09:53 PM	#84
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	Fill up tomorrow. This fucking blows.

07-13-2006, 10:18 PM	#88
Edward64 Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2005	Regardless to the history of Israel/Lebanon/Palestine et al. and who started this latest conflict etc... I've always thought that clear cut military is fair game but never clear-cut civilians. Ex. Attack on Israeli military/reserve unit is fair game. Attack on Hamas rocket positions and Hamas leadership is fair game. Ex. Attack on an Israeli pizza parlor or bus is not. Attack on Lebanese civilians (or at least a high potential of hurting them) is not. I can't help but believe Israel has lost the 'high moral ground' so far. This is not to say they are wrong in wanting to get their military troops back, but the damage they are inflicting on clear-cut civilians hurts their image. I guess the argument is that Hamas and Hezbollah hide within the ranks of the civilians and therefore there will be unevitable collateral damage. I can see this argument but the latest Israeli reaction/offensive seems pretty indiscriminate to me.

07-14-2006, 05:12 AM	#96
Edward64 Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2005	Franklinnoble. There's no doubt who was attacked first in this latest round of Lebanon/Israeli conflict. Regardless, there needs to be a distinction between Lebanon and Hezbollah.

07-14-2006, 07:26 AM	#98
rowech Pro Starter Join Date: Feb 2006	Like all good terrorists, these guys are cowards. Hide amoung civilians, don't come out and fight, hold their own people hostage with threats of killing, etc. Yet, they are the hardest group to fight for these exact reasons. The wars being fought today are not being fought against traditional "here's our border, there's your border" countries. As for gas...I never understand this...certainly it sucks but you have to have it. There's nothing else most of us can do short of riding a bicycle/walking so if that's not an option, we have to fill it up and accept that it is what it is. Blame car companies for continuing with this crap. If they would hurry up and figure something out our dependence on this volitaile region would all but be gone.

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