Microsoft Surface announcement

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

The problem with Windows Phone OS is that while its inherently usable and well designed ... but the app support isn't evolved enough for it to take market share away from Android and iOS in a meaningful manner (see my comments about it not supporting C++ and thus dissuading a lot of developers from making products for it).

As such it could well go the way of the Betamax vs VHS - it doesn't matter if your system is better, if its not supported people won't buy it ...

But we are talking about Microsoft making a usable OS for the consumer. As you state, it's inherently usable. Therefore it should work for a tablet and also for Windows 8, which is using the Metro design.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Why that small? It appears on the Surface Windows 8 Pro you can play Civ5.

Touch Screen input - simply put its incredibly lossy, so you have to design the UI to suit it (ie. larger buttons) which limits the information shown on the screen etc.

Plus tablets by their nature being held closer to someones eyes tend to be used for smaller periods of playing time than a computer with a monitor.

These two tend to combine with the fact tablets generally target more mainstream/casual users than PC's to mean that its likely they'll go with a slightly lightweight version of the game imho.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

But we are talking about Microsoft making a usable OS for the consumer. As you state, it's inherently usable. Therefore it should work for a tablet and also for Windows 8, which is using the Metro design.

Inherently usable counts for nothing if theres nothing to actually use it for - Betamax was a far beta technology than VHS, but without the films on it ultimately it failed ....

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Inherently usable counts for nothing if theres nothing to actually use it for - Betamax was a far beta technology than VHS, but without the films on it ultimately it failed ....

I imagine that Windows 8 will be used on quite a bit of things .

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Touch Screen input - simply put its incredibly lossy, so you have to design the UI to suit it (ie. larger buttons) which limits the information shown on the screen etc.

Plus tablets by their nature being held closer to someones eyes tend to be used for smaller periods of playing time than a computer with a monitor.

These two tend to combine with the fact tablets generally target more mainstream/casual users than PC's to mean that its likely they'll go with a slightly lightweight version of the game imho.

I don't understand what you are saying - you can load Civ 5 onto Windows 8 Surface Pro as soon as you get it (well with a USB CD drive). Yes, it likely won't be touch screen based without serious mod - but you'll be able to play Civ on your tablet - as long as you have the CD for it, or I guess you can download it from Steam.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I imagine that Windows 8 will be used on quite a bit of things .

Yes it will - however ....

(1) Only one 'variant' of the Surface runs 'all Windows8 software' - the other will only run the Metro apps.
(2) time will tell if all software is going to be designed for touch input or whether most will remain designed for mouse input and control, thats the determining factor as to whether the tablet will have software if you view things through that manner.
A lot of Wii products failed because they were designed for a 'normal' controller and done as a cheap port - for an application to truly work on a platform it needs to be designed specifically for it imho.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I don't understand what you are saying - you can load Civ 5 onto Windows 8 Surface Pro as soon as you get it (well with a USB CD drive). Yes, it likely won't be touch screen based without serious mod - but you'll be able to play Civ on your tablet - as long as you have the CD for it, or I guess you can download it from Steam.

Yes it'd be possible to play - but seriously would it be playable without the UI refit? ... as such its like people arguing you can play full FM PC on an iPad because you can setup a VNC connection to stream it from your PC to the iPad ... yes you can, but its inherently unusable because the PC game isn't designed for touch input an as such you spend a heck of a lot of time swearing at it rather than playing

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Yes it'd be possible to play - but seriously would it be playable without the UI refit? ... as such its like people arguing you can play full FM PC on an iPad because you can setup a VNC connection to stream it from your PC to the iPad ... yes you can, but its inherently unusable because the PC game isn't designed for touch input an as such you spend a heck of a lot of time swearing at it rather than playing

Use the touchpad on the keyboard.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Use the touchpad on the keyboard.

Thats true for Civ, but again its restricting the potential users to a 'hardcore' rather than really extending its user base at all (ie. the number of users who love Civ and know it well enough to want to play purely using keyboard input isn't as big as those who'd be happy playing with a mouse imho).

Please note I'm not 'writing off' the Surface at all - I think it could find traction if promoted correctly and supported by developers, I am however concerned that the existence of the two separate devices (with different software support) could be confusing for users ...

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Yes it will - however ....

(1) Only one 'variant' of the Surface runs 'all Windows8 software' - the other will only run the Metro apps.
(2) time will tell if all software is going to be designed for touch input or whether most will remain designed for mouse input and control, thats the determining factor as to whether the tablet will have software if you view things through that manner.
A lot of Wii products failed because they were designed for a 'normal' controller and done as a cheap port - for an application to truly work on a platform it needs to be designed specifically for it imho.

I think that the Surface Pro will be the best seller. While RT will be "Surface Lite". And Metro is the default launcher on Win8. It's best used on tablet, but you will be able to use it with a mouse (kind of like Windows Media Center can be used with a mouse). I also assume that for a lot of programs your finger/stylus will equate to a mouse cursor in a lot of ways.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by jeff061

But I'm not paying more than $500 for something that's not a full fledged laptop.

this

[Daimyo]

Originally Posted by Subby

They still have less than a 2% world market share, so something is wrong there.

These threads pop up every now and then and its clear a lot of people are still thinking about technology and consumer electronic products like they did 10-20 years ago in that all that matters are the features of the OS and specs/performance of the hardware. In terms of mainstream success that stuff doesn't really matter much any more (as long as its good enough to not detract from the experience). We're beyond selling technology for the sake of technology.

Its mostly about the eco-system now (but also still good, old-fashioned marketing -- a well positioned product, priced correctly, and promoted in a way that mainstream consumers understand). Microsoft's mobile products are way behind on the eco-system and they don't seem to know how to position them (as opposed to Amazon who was similarly behind Apple, but did both things really well).

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I have heard NOTHING but rave reviews for the new Windows Phone OS.

Originally Posted by Subby

They still have less than a 2% world market share, so something is wrong there.

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

The problem with Windows Phone OS is that while its inherently usable and well designed ... but the app support isn't evolved enough for it to take market share away from Android and iOS in a meaningful manner (see my comments about it not supporting C++ and thus dissuading a lot of developers from making products for it).

As such it could well go the way of the Betamax vs VHS - it doesn't matter if your system is better, if its not supported people won't buy it ...

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Its hard to break through when there is an established market share (Microsoft's competitors know it well - when IE was dominating browsers was it because their competitors had problems with their browsers?) and when you don't really get on the sexy phones. Though getting Windows Phone OS on Nokia 900 was a good step.

I have been using an Android for nearly 2 years now and love it, but would love to be able to snyc it with Outlook (not a big fan of Google calendar). Been wondering if going to a Windows phone is worth it or not. Any suggestions here? Is there a thread for Windows phones?

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by jeff061

IBut I'm not paying more than $500 for something that's not a full fledged laptop.

I guess it depends on the hardware specs, but for me, the Pro version probably will be my next laptop. If it runs the full Win8 OS and all my typical Windows programs, why wouldn't I want the Surface Pro over a ultrabook? Why wouldn't I want a more flexible piece of hardware that gives me the option of both keyboard/touchpad/mouse input and touchscreen input?

So if the Pro is in the $700-800 range but has reasonably comparable hardware specs, I'd take it any day over an ultrabook.

[jeff061]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

I guess it depends on the hardware specs, but for me, the Pro version probably will be my next laptop. If it runs the full Win8 OS and all my typical Windows programs, why wouldn't I want the Surface Pro over a ultrabook? Why wouldn't I want a more flexible piece of hardware that gives me the option of both keyboard/touchpad/mouse input and touchscreen input?

So if the Pro is in the $700-800 range but has reasonably comparable hardware specs, I'd take it any day over an ultrabook.

Well the pro version is an "ultrabook". Wasn't really commenting on that. I suspect it will be priced very similar to current ultrabooks out there.

I'm more concerned with the non-pro version being priced like a budget ultrabook.

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Yes it'd be possible to play - but seriously would it be playable without the UI refit? ... as such its like people arguing you can play full FM PC on an iPad because you can setup a VNC connection to stream it from your PC to the iPad ... yes you can, but its inherently unusable because the PC game isn't designed for touch input an as such you spend a heck of a lot of time swearing at it rather than playing

There was an article on Rock, Paper, Shotgun about the Surface today and mentioned the hope that if this took off games that were suitable for play on a tablet could be released with options for both touch and standard mouse and keyboard input.

Given how many games have a console UI on PC and lack proper display options I'm not expecting it to be too common though.

[Young Drachma]

Microsoft Surface Just Made the MacBook Air and the iPad Look Obsolete

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by jeff061

Well the pro version is an "ultrabook". Wasn't really commenting on that. I suspect it will be priced very similar to current ultrabooks out there.

I'm more concerned with the non-pro version being priced like a budget ultrabook.

Yeah, agreed. MS has better be aggressive with their pricing on the ARM version to eat into the iPad's huge market lead.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by mckerney

There was an article on Rock, Paper, Shotgun about the Surface today and mentioned the hope that if this took off games that were suitable for play on a tablet could be released with options for both touch and standard mouse and keyboard input.

Given how many games have a console UI on PC and lack proper display options I'm not expecting it to be too common though.

I'm going to be rather surprised if MS doesn't already have plans to integrate the Surface with their next game console in a variety of ways.

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

I'm going to be rather surprised if MS doesn't already have plans to integrate the Surface with their next game console in a variety of ways.

With XBox Live integration in Metro and their Smart Glass demo a couple weeks ago that's pretty much a certainty.

[ISiddiqui]

If I can play Geometry Wars on a Surface, I'm happy!

[dawgfan]

I could envision a number of ways to interface - Surface as your gaming monitor, Surface as a touch-screen controller for your 720, Surface as a platform for adjunct game apps supporting your 720 games, etc.

Not to mention the ways it could help streamline the whole connected living room experience between your TV, game console, DVR and computing devices.

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

I could envision a number of ways to interface - Surface as your gaming monitor, Surface as a touch-screen controller for your 720, Surface as a platform for adjunct game apps supporting your 720 games, etc.

Not to mention the ways it could help streamline the whole connected living room experience between your TV, game console, DVR and computing devices.

A lot of that is what they already have planned to be able to do with most tablets with Smart Glass, there will probably be some extra functionality with a Surface though.

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

If I can play Geometry Wars on a Surface, I'm happy!

I want to be able to play Steam Cloud games like SpaceChem or Toki Tori where I'd be able to automatically pick up my progress on a tablet and then continue the same game on PC later that evening.

[cartman]

A bit late to the discussion, but C++ and C# have almost nothing in common, other than the capital C. C# is a near clone of Java.

[stevew]

Was checking out the Windows8 phone news today and it looks pretty good. Although no current devices will be able to run the software, which kind of sucks.

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by stevew

Was checking out the Windows8 phone news today and it looks pretty good. Although no current devices will be able to run the software, which kind of sucks.

Not upgrading any of the current devices was a terrible decision. I'm not shocked my Focus can't run WP8, but someone who purchased a Nokia Lumia 900 last week is going to be pretty pissed off to hear today that it's already a dead product. Pretty poor decision, and one that I just can't understand. It's going to cut the legs out of the momentum that I feel they finally just started gaining with the introduction of the various Lumia devices this spring.

Aside from that, WP8 does look great, and I will not hesitate to upgrade to it when my contract expires. I'm also pleased that the 7.8 update that my Focus will receive will get the new start menu, that thing looks very pretty.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

I've seen multiple instances of people using styluses on iPads and iPhones. It's certainly a small minority, but it's not rare either. There is a segment of the population out there that want the precision and/or the form factor/familiarity of interfacing using a pen-like device.

Not to mention for artists such as myself, having the option to use a stylus instantly means that, if the Pro version can adequately run Photoshop (and other graphics programs), it would be productive to actually do so. After years of being able to work with Wacom products, there's no way I'd run any of those graphics programs without the ability to use a stylus.

then they can buy an aftermarket stylus for $3. I travel all the time and sit in a lot of meetings with numerous ipads present and I can say I have never seen anyone using a stylus on a plane or in a room. Not once. I'm sure there's a market out there, but it's probably about as big as the palm pilot's was.

Just saying it's unnecessary to include and classic MS feature creep dorky. I like the surface and think it'll drive competitive innovation.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

then they can buy an aftermarket stylus for $3. I travel all the time and sit in a lot of meetings with numerous ipads present and I can say I have never seen anyone using a stylus on a plane or in a room. Not once. I'm sure there's a market out there, but it's probably about as big as the palm pilot's was.

Just saying it's unnecessary to include and classic MS feature creep dorky. I like the surface and think it'll drive competitive innovation.

I guess I don't understand the resistance to including it, unless you're convinced it will significantly drive up the cost. If you don't want to use it, don't.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

Not upgrading any of the current devices was a terrible decision. I'm not shocked my Focus can't run WP8, but someone who purchased a Nokia Lumia 900 last week is going to be pretty pissed off to hear today that it's already a dead product. Pretty poor decision, and one that I just can't understand. It's going to cut the legs out of the momentum that I feel they finally just started gaining with the introduction of the various Lumia devices this spring.

Aside from that, WP8 does look great, and I will not hesitate to upgrade to it when my contract expires. I'm also pleased that the 7.8 update that my Focus will receive will get the new start menu, that thing looks very pretty.

It's the whole, its been made to be backwards compatible to phone OSs that go a good deal back, so a good time to start anew and integrate it all in to Win8 OS.

Sorry, But Microsoft Screwing Windows Phone Fans Is the Right Thing To Do

[Daimyo]

They did the same thing last generation and saw their market share drop from 15% to almost nothing as everyone stopped buying knowing there was no upgrade path. Same thing in prior versions too although at least back then they could blame the carriers.

Will current apps work on the new OS version this time at least?

[Mike Lowe]

Have they announced specs on this yet? I agree that I'd be sold if it actually ran what a desktop or laptop could run (Civ 5, FL Studio, Adobe Creative Suite, etc.). Until those types of programs can be handled, I don't see the point in owning a tablet as they don't offer a damn thing my pocket-sized cell phone doesn't already provide.

People are suckers for that iPad. Suckers. Period.

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by Mike Lowe

Have they announced specs on this yet? I agree that I'd be sold if it actually ran what a desktop or laptop could run (Civ 5, FL Studio, Adobe Creative Suite, etc.). Until those types of programs can be handled, I don't see the point in owning a tablet as they don't offer a damn thing my pocket-sized cell phone doesn't already provide.

People are suckers for that iPad. Suckers. Period.

The pro will have an Ivy Bridge i5 in it, haven't seen anything about how much RAM though.

[RainMaker]

Regardless of how this all turns out, I'm happy anytime there is some competition and innovation in a tech space. Consumers end up the winners in the end as cheesy as that sounds.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Mike Lowe

Have they announced specs on this yet? I agree that I'd be sold if it actually ran what a desktop or laptop could run (Civ 5, FL Studio, Adobe Creative Suite, etc.). Until those types of programs can be handled, I don't see the point in owning a tablet as they don't offer a damn thing my pocket-sized cell phone doesn't already provide.

People are suckers for that iPad. Suckers. Period.

I thought the iPad was a dumb idea but I did change my mind when I got one. Phones are nice but small. It's sort of a perfect device for some minor web surfing and playing games.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

I guess I don't understand the resistance to including it, unless you're convinced it will significantly drive up the cost. If you don't want to use it, don't.

I don't understand why you'd include it when everything is going to be about touch and voice commands in the future. It looks like an outdated feature from 1998. Everything costs. It's more an observation on design philosophy that still pervades msft than a personal preference. Like I doubt J Allard would have included one.

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by Daimyo

Will current apps work on the new OS version this time at least?

Yes, WP7 apps will run on WP8 devices. Apps targeted to the new WP8 runtime will not run on WP7 devices, however.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I thought the iPad was a dumb idea but I did change my mind when I got one. Phones are nice but small. It's sort of a perfect device for some minor web surfing and playing games.

Which makes it a luxury device. It seems like Microsoft is trying to push this as a "best of both worlds" laptop/iPad combo.

[Subby]

Originally Posted by Logan

Which makes it a luxury device. It seems like Microsoft is trying to push this as a "best of both worlds" laptop/iPad combo.

Last board meeting I went to had just about every CEO taking notes on his iPad, mostly via bluetooth keyboard. And this wasn't a bunch of artists or entertainment execs - I work for a trade association that serves a sector of the financial services industry.

My lobbyists almost exclusively bring their presentations on their ipads when they go to do speeches or education.

The point is, the potential business impact of the iPad is enormous but I think we are just beginning to scratch the surface of what is capable with it. It goes back to what Daimyo was talking about - an ecosystem. It's one thing to say that their is a huge developer base in place to make applications for the Surface, but if it only gets 3% penetration in the tablet market, is anyone going to make apps for it? The iPad has so much potential because tens of thousands of developers are making and fine tuning apps for it every day.

/ramble

[MacroGuru]

I am in the Unified Communications / AV Arena and I am starting to see a ton of request for mobile device communication within their organization. We even have a large financial institution asking us about incorporating AppleTV into their executive conference rooms.

We as a company have adopted the mobile technology and have been growing with it as far as uses and tech adds within the UC / AV arena and I believe it is going to change our business environment for the good.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Daimyo

They did the same thing last generation and saw their market share drop from 15% to almost nothing as everyone stopped buying knowing there was no upgrade path. Same thing in prior versions too although at least back then they could blame the carriers.

Will current apps work on the new OS version this time at least?

This is what I said earlier: Microsoft orphans their mobile OS regularly, with a lack of upgrades to older hardware, and a new OS not supporting recent releases. With any luck the new synching methods (over the Internet with standards, USB file sharing) will alleviate the OS side. However Android is doing similar things. My Droid X barely got Gingerbread (a point release), let alone ICS (the equivalent of WP7 -> WP8). Apple seems to be the only one handling this reasonably.

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

This is what I said earlier: Microsoft orphans their mobile OS regularly, with a lack of upgrades to older hardware, and a new OS not supporting recent releases. With any luck the new synching methods (over the Internet with standards, USB file sharing) will alleviate the OS side. However Android is doing similar things. My Droid X barely got Gingerbread (a point release), let alone ICS (the equivalent of WP7 -> WP8). Apple seems to be the only one handling this reasonably.

Even Apple frustrated me with the news that iOS 6 would not be available for the original iPad. The thing is only 2 years old, why can't it handle iOS 6? They're putting it on the iPhone 3gs, which was released a year earlier.

I think all of these companies are flagrantly obsoleting their products at incredible rates, and it is really, really maddening.

[stevew]

Orphaning products that are contract based is especially bullshit. People who got a Lumina 900 are stuck with that thru the end of 2013. They'll basically have a dead platform phone for a year. And all the carrier shit that happens with Android makes me glad I don't have one.

[ISiddiqui]

I was actually just about to mention the original iPad not getting iOS6. FWIW, Apple does it all the time - however, what they do is allow you to get some aspects of the new OS, but not all of them (for example, Siri wasn't available to 3GS iPhones - at least not originally). So you really aren't getting the new OS. Its similar to Microsoft saying current Windows Phones will be getting Windows Phone 7.8 which will have the aspects of Windows Phone 8 that current phones can handle - its just like Apple's upgrade path, but more honest.

[Daimyo]

Except for one key point: the original iPad can still download use all the same apps as a new iPad even after iOS 6 is released. For a smart phone that's a much bigger deal than getting new OS features.

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by Daimyo

Except for one key point: the original iPad can still download use all the same apps as a new iPad even after iOS 6 is released. For a smart phone that's a much bigger deal than getting new OS features.

Can it really use all the same apps? I would assume that apps will come out that require iOS6+, if for no other reason than to minimize testing.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by Daimyo

Except for one key point: the original iPad can still download use all the same apps as a new iPad even after iOS 6 is released. For a smart phone that's a much bigger deal than getting new OS features.

Thats hugely incorrect .... but is the perception normally of the public, basically clever marketting from Apple.

iOS apps are often restricted according to the OS revision which a device has, many of the later ones require iOS5 to run now and come iOS6 many will then exclude the original iPad (as that isn't supported by iOS6).

It is possible for developers to 'backward support' devices - I do it for Football Manager Handheld down to iOS3.0 .... but frankly its a right pain in the arse to do and increases the QA/testing for products hugely (instead of just testing on each device you then are testing on each device with iOS3.0, iOS3.1, iOS3.2 etc.).

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

It is possible for developers to 'backward support' devices - I do it for Football Manager Handheld down to iOS3.0 .... but frankly its a right pain in the arse to do and increases the QA/testing for products hugely (instead of just testing on each device you then are testing on each device with iOS3.0, iOS3.1, iOS3.2 etc.).

I know how you feel. It was the world I lived in when I worked at Apple. "Oh, you mean we have to support the 3 people left on the planet that still have a PowerPC Mac so they can run iMovie?". Man I was super happy when they finally dropped support for older hardware like that.

[Daimyo]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Thats hugely incorrect .... but is the perception normally of the public, basically clever marketting from Apple.

iOS apps are often restricted according to the OS revision which a device has, many of the later ones require iOS5 to run now and come iOS6 many will then exclude the original iPad (as that isn't supported by iOS6).

It is possible for developers to 'backward support' devices - I do it for Football Manager Handheld down to iOS3.0 .... but frankly its a right pain in the arse to do and increases the QA/testing for products hugely (instead of just testing on each device you then are testing on each device with iOS3.0, iOS3.1, iOS3.2 etc.).

Its not at all incorrect. Sure, app developers can choose to support what they want and so theoretically you can drop support for devices. Its a business decision for the developers -- given how many older devices are still in use and without the fragmentation of Windows and Android it just doesn't happen in practice. So, while they can theoretically drop support for the last generation, they absolutely never will outside of very rare circumstances (as you said you continue to go back three generations!).

When I say its all about the eco-system and network effects now, this is a small part of what I mean. This effect is exactly part of the package of benefits you get from buying into that. Personally, I never had an issue with any app I want to use with my original ipad or the 3GSs my family members inherited from me.

[Subby]

http://www.bgr.com/2012/06/21/micros...nts-projectio/

Count ABI Research as a Surface skeptic. The research firm on Wednesday said that Windows-based tablets will have “little impact” on the tablet market this year and will account for just 1.3% of tablet shipments in 2012. The most obvious reason for this is that Windows tablets aren’t expected to be commercially available until October, but ABI also questions whether Microsoft’s overall tablet strategy will be effective in peeling users away from their iPads.

“Is Microsoft suggesting that organizations will make the ‘post-PC era’ move toward a mobile computing device and ditch traditional desktop and clamshell form-factors, or is the company hoping that employees will gain access to multiple devices?” the firm writes. “So far, businesses have been opposed to buying incremental computing assets for users due to the support costs.”

ABI also says Microsoft could be hurt by releasing a fragmented tablet operating system since one version of Surface will run on Windows RT while another will run on Windows 8 Pro.