So... The Big 12

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by Cuckoo

I thought I heard one of the ESPN BCS guys say that OU would be a solid #2 in the computers if they win at OSU. This whole thing is confusing.

If Texas is #1 in the computers and OU is #2, then Texas gets a .3333 in the BCS component, and OU gets a .3200. The computer apportionment is based on the ordinal rankings, whereas the human component is based on the total percentage of votes. So, in the human rankings, a team can be ranked several spots ahead of another team, but if their total votes are fairly close, it doesn't matter as much.

[sooner333]

Originally Posted by cartman

Dola,

If it is an OU-Mizzou Big 12 title game, it will be between two teams that Texas beat by at least two scores this season.

OU would also be undefeated against those two teams.

OU hasn't had the opportunity to play Missouri yet and obviously can't play themselves. I don't know why you want to pretend that neither OU nor Texas ever even played Texas Tech when they have the same record and are part of the very same tie. Even if you took the margins of victory out, there still needs to be a way to separate the three teams and it can't be that in matchup between only two of the three teams one team beat the other.

[MizzouRah]

Florida beating Oklahoma by 14 points?

[cartman]

Originally Posted by sooner333

OU would also be undefeated against those two teams.

OU hasn't had the opportunity to play Missouri yet and obviously can't play themselves. I don't know why you want to pretend that neither OU nor Texas ever even played Texas Tech when they have the same record and are part of the very same tie. Even if you took the margins of victory out, there still needs to be a way to separate the three teams and it can't be that in matchup between only two of the three teams one team beat the other.

I didn't say that OU shouldn't be the Big 12 South representative in the title game. Please point out where I have ever said that in this thread. What I've said all along that it isn't a slam dunk that OU should be the representative, which is what some are trying to claim. The difference between Texas and OU is negligible at this point, and a very strong case can be made for either team.

[Cuckoo]

I think an important thing to note here is that if it all goes as expected, someone (maybe more than one someone if you count USC) is going to have a very legitimate complaint about being left out of the National Championship game.

Then again, not very much goes as expected in college football, so you never know.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by Cuckoo

I think an important thing to note here is that if it all goes as expected, someone (maybe more than one someone if you count USC) is going to have a very legitimate complaint about being left out of the National Championship game.

Then again, not very much goes as expected in college football, so you never know.

USC might not even win the Pac 10. If you cannot win that conference you don't deserve a shot at the National Title.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

USC might not even win the Pac 10. If you cannot win that conference you don't deserve a shot at the National Title.

So I assume that if Mizzou wins the B12 championship game, that neither OU or UT should be in the title game?

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Matthean

So wait, the Sooners just posted a 65-21 score against the #2 team in the country during the November part of the schedule and you are saying they likely wouldn't even be within 14 of Florida?

Yes. Have you watched them play?

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

Florida beating Oklahoma by 14 points?

I can easily see that playing out.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

So I assume that if Mizzou wins the B12 championship game, that neither OU or UT should be in the title game?

I am stating ths solely on the fact that the Pac 10 is a joke this season and a team as good as USC should not have had any problem winning it.

I am not one who thinks if you don't win your Conference you should be left out, but if your conference is a joke, and you don't win it, you don't deserve it.

[DeToxRox]

Dola -- USC has one signature win, vs #10 Ohio State, who themselves was not as good as hyped going into the season, and were without their best player.

OU, TT, and UT have all had signature wins.

USC has not.

[Big Fo]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

So I assume that if Mizzou wins the B12 championship game, that neither OU or UT should be in the title game?

Sounds fair to me.

[st.cronin]

Is there still no rule that you have to win your conference to play in the championship game?

[ISiddiqui]

I don't think so... but I thought they were going to do something about OU making it that one year after losing in the Conference Championship against K-State.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

I am stating ths solely on the fact that the Pac 10 is a joke this season and a team as good as USC should not have had any problem winning it.

I am not one who thinks if you don't win your Conference you should be left out, but if your conference is a joke, and you don't win it, you don't deserve it.

I tend to agree with you that USC lost its chance at the title with its loss to Oregon State, with how the Pac 10 is this year. That said, I think you do disservice to Oregon State when you say that, whom have been very good this year, and the Pac 10 is a joke comment coming from a Big 10 fan is pretty laughable. I also think it's silly to even imply that the presence of a healthy Wells would have made up the difference in a 32 point win (particularly from a UM fan).

I would say if you don't want USC to get into the title game because the Pac 10 sucks, say that next time, rather than saying "if you cannot win that conference you don't deserve a shot at the National Title", if you don't believe that should be the case for the B12 teams.

I would also guess that two years ago when we were having all sorts of UM-OU rematch talk in a nat'l championship game, you were probably not against that, even though the loser (as it turns out, UM) would not have been their conference champion.

[st.cronin]

That's something they really need to fix.

[cartman]

Nope, there is no rule. It has happened twice. Once was the example that ISiddiqui brought up, and the other was in 2001, when Colorado upset Texas in the Big 12 Championship game, and Nebraska went to the BCS title game.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I tend to agree with you that USC lost its chance at the title with its loss to Oregon State, with how the Pac 10 is this year. That said, I think you do disservice to Oregon State when you say that, whom have been very good this year, and the Pac 10 is a joke comment coming from a Big 10 fan is pretty laughable. I also think it's silly to even imply that the presence of a healthy Wells would have made up the difference in a 32 point win (particularly from a UM fan).

I would say if you don't want USC to get into the title game because the Pac 10 sucks, say that next time, rather than saying "if you cannot win that conference you don't deserve a shot at the National Title", if you don't believe that should be the case for the B12 teams.

I would also guess that two years ago when we were having all sorts of UM-OU rematch talk in a nat'l championship game, you were probably not against that, even though the loser (as it turns out, UM) would not have been their conference champion.

I say that conference because the conference in question is not good.

And yes, Oregon State is a solid team, I don't disagree with that, but they are a team that USC should've rolled through. For all the USC hype, they still manage to blow winnable games on a yearly basis, and this is no different.

Their fans will say they got screwed but USC is in a unique situation: every year they control their own destiny because they play ever other P10 team, and the Pac 10 is at it's weakest it's ever been this year,

And I don't get why me calling the Pac 10 a joke is laughable as a Big 10 fan? I think the Big Ten is a mockery too, but it isn't nearly as bad as the Pac 10 is.

As far as OSU not having Wells making a difference .. Well when you don't need to stack the box and make a game managing QB (Boeckman at the time) beat you, it gives you a huge advantage. That is not a potent offense they have to begin with, and without Beanie it's downright anemic.

As far as two years ago, I never thought about a UM.OSU rematch because I knew it wouldn't happen. Teams who lose that late in the year generally don't get a shot, especially when other teams had conference title games after them.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

I say that conference because the conference in question is not good.

And yes, Oregon State is a solid team, I don't disagree with that, but they are a team that USC should've rolled through. For all the USC hype, they still manage to blow winnable games on a yearly basis, and this is no different.

Their fans will say they got screwed but USC is in a unique situation: every year they control their own destiny because they play ever other P10 team, and the Pac 10 is at it's weakest it's ever been this year.

I would argue that almost every team controls its own destiny, thanks to the BCS system, the exception being the non-BCS schools outside of the top one. Every now and then we get a USC in 2003 or Auburn in 2004, but for the most part, I think it's disingenious to say USC (or Pac 10 teams) are the only ones to control their destiny.

I haven't seen any USC fans saying they were screwed, BTW. They seem to acknowledge the conference is bad this year, and the team screwed up in the wrong season to do so.

And I don't get why me calling the Pac 10 a joke is laughable as a Big 10 fan? I think the Big Ten is a mockery too, but it isn't nearly as bad as the Pac 10 is.

It's laughable because the Big Ten has been bad for longer. This year, the Pac 10 is worse, but that's probably the first time it has been worse than the Big 10 since 1999, when we had a joke of a Stanford team (with 4 losses) get tot he Rose Bowl. All that said, acknowledged, you don't need to come from a better conference to say that the Pac 10 is a joke this year.

As far as OSU not having Wells making a difference .. Well when you don't need to stack the box and make a game managing QB (Boeckman at the time) beat you, it gives you a huge advantage. That is not a potent offense they have to begin with, and without Beanie it's downright anemic.

"OSU not having Wells making a difference" implies I said Wells would not have made a difference. I said he wouldn't have made up a 32 point difference by being healthy, and he wouldn't have. Ohio State would have been fortunate to be within two scores with a healthy Wells.

As far as two years ago, I never thought about a UM.OSU rematch because I knew it wouldn't happen. Teams who lose that late in the year generally don't get a shot, especially when other teams had conference title games after them.

That doesn't exactly say you were arguing UM shouldn't be in the title game if they lost to OSU there, does it?

[Cuckoo]

Originally Posted by cartman

Nope, there is no rule. It has happened twice. Once was the example that ISiddiqui brought up, and the other was in 2001, when Colorado upset Texas in the Big 12 Championship game, and Nebraska went to the BCS title game.

I think this year is the perfect example of why there shouldn't be a rule like that, in my opinion. If the scenario mentioned above happens (Mizzou beats either Texas or OU in the Big 12 Championship), the other clearly deserves to go to the title game. The only other legitimate argument might be for USC, and there's a possibility they won't be a conference winner either.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by cartman

Nope, there is no rule. It has happened twice. Once was the example that ISiddiqui brought up, and the other was in 2001, when Colorado upset Texas in the Big 12 Championship game, and Nebraska went to the BCS title game.

That's correct, and it's important to note, that Nebraska got blown out by Colorado in their last game in 2001, and came in 2nd place in their own division. They didn't even qualify for the Big XII Championship game.

In 2003, OU got blown out by Kansas State in the Big XII Championship game, yet due to the heavy computer weighting back then, they still went to the BCS Championship against LSU.

This year would be a unique situation, because the BCS rankings will be used to break a tie (probably by a couple of thousands of a point) and determine the south representative in the Big XII Championship game. If OU gets left out, they will be on a six game winning streak, including a 65-21 win over a #2 ranked team. If Texas gets left out, they will have won their last three games.

So, if Missouri does win the Big XII Championship game, then the team that didn't play (Texas or OU) would have a much stronger argument for playing in Miami than the previous examples of teams that didn't win their conference. It will be because the BCS ratings system (that now has them in the top two) had them behind by thousandths of a point to pick their division's team the week before.

[tarcone]

The Big 10 may be bad, but its "best" team still won the conference. The PAC 10s "best" team, aka USC, couldnt win their weak conference.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I would argue that almost every team controls its own destiny.

+1

Every team in the discussion, except Alabama, has lost a game. You want to play in the championship game? DON'T LOSE. Once you lose, you give up any argument.

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by Noop

Yes. Have you watched them play?

The Sooners lowest scoring game this season has been 35. In other words, what you are saying is Florida is going to post at least 49 against Oklahoma. You know Oklahoma isn't the Citadel right? Let's compare Florida. Florida failed to score more than 30 against Miami(FL), Tennessee, and Mississippi. Oh, but that was in the beginning of the year. Yeah, and Oklahoma has posted 60+ in the last four with a 58 and 45 before that.

Oklahoma beat the likely Big East champ 52-26. They beat the 2nd best in the MWC 35-10. Again, the TT game. What does Florida have out of conference to compare? They don't. Oklahoma will have faced 5 ranked teams even before the Big 12 title game. Not saying Florida can't beat Oklahoma by 14, but to impy it in the way you are isn't even arrogant. It's delusional.

So, before this weekend Florida would have beaten TT by 58 since they are 14 points better than Oklahoma right? I mean, you would have totally made that bet right?

[Noop]

What about Utah and Boise?

Oops Cronin prefaced it with every team in this discussion.

[Karlifornia]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I would argue that almost every team controls its own destiny, thanks to the BCS system, the exception being the non-BCS schools outside of the top one. Every now and then we get a USC in 2003 or Auburn in 2004, but for the most part, I think it's disingenious to say USC (or Pac 10 teams) are the only ones to control their destiny.

I haven't seen any USC fans saying they were screwed, BTW. They seem to acknowledge the conference is bad this year, and the team screwed up in the wrong season to do so.



It's laughable because the Big Ten has been bad for longer. This year, the Pac 10 is worse, but that's probably the first time it has been worse than the Big 10 since 1999, when we had a joke of a Stanford team (with 4 losses) get tot he Rose Bowl. All that said, acknowledged, you don't need to come from a better conference to say that the Pac 10 is a joke this year.



"OSU not having Wells making a difference" implies I said Wells would not have made a difference. I said he wouldn't have made up a 32 point difference by being healthy, and he wouldn't have. Ohio State would have been fortunate to be within two scores with a healthy Wells.



That doesn't exactly say you were arguing UM shouldn't be in the title game if they lost to OSU there, does it?

If I said "UC LAtely the pac-10 has been down in both basketball and football" would I beiline, or telling the truth?

[hoopsguy]

I do not have a team in the mix here, but I haven't seen anyone explicitly state this yet. Of the three teams in the mix for the Big 12 South:

Texas Tech - one home game, one road game
Oklahoma - one home game, one neutral game
Texas - one road game, one neutral game

Texas has the closest loss of the three teams without the luxury of playing a home game in the series.


2nd point - I'm disappointed in anyone who would rate Florida ahead of Texas when Florida lost at home to an unranked team while Texas lost on the road late to a Top 10 team.

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by Noop

What about Utah and Boise?

Boise isn't even getting a BCS bowl bid at this point. Utah would have to have the BCS sky fall for them to get in.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Matthean

The Sooners lowest scoring game this season has been 35. In other words, what you are saying is Florida is going to post at least 49 against Oklahoma. You know Oklahoma isn't the Citadel right? Let's compare Florida. Florida failed to score more than 30 against Miami(FL), Tennessee, and Mississippi. Oh, but that was in the beginning of the year. Yeah, and Oklahoma has posted 60+ in the last four with a 58 and 45 before that.

After that lost to Mississippi they have been an entirely different team. I am not being delusional when I say I think Florida will beat almost every team save a few by at least 21+ teams like Texas, Oklahoma, Alabama maybe can keep it close but the way they are playing right now, I am not sure if anyone could keep up with them.

Look at their performance since the Ole Miss game and look at the margin of victory and how many points they have allowed. The most was by then 4 LSU and since then 19 to Citadel while playing their 3rd string. Nothing against OU and its fans (a few on this board I get along with) but OU's defense is not stopping teams from scoring.

Florida's defense is stopping teams and their offense is putting up points, couple with their special teams. So its not hard to see why Florida would run through anyone they face.

That being said they could have a brain fart and blow it but I doubt it.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by tarcone

The Big 10 may be bad, but its "best" team still won the conference. The PAC 10s "best" team, aka USC, couldnt win their weak conference.

And your point?

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Noop

After that lost to Mississippi they have been an entirely different team. I am not being delusional when I say I think Florida will beat almost every team save a few by at least 21+ teams like Texas, Oklahoma, Alabama maybe can keep it close but the way they are playing right now, I am not sure if anyone could keep up with them.

Look at their performance since the Ole Miss game and look at the margin of victory and how many points they have allowed. The most was by then 4 LSU and since then 19 to Citadel while playing their 3rd string. Nothing against OU and its fans (a few on this board I get along with) but OU's defense is not stopping teams from scoring.

Florida's defense is stopping teams and their offense is putting up points, couple with their special teams. So its not hard to see why Florida would run through anyone they face.

That being said they could have a brain fart and blow it but I doubt it.

That's one of the things I hate about the length of time between the conference championships and the BCS Championship game. Too much time for rust to develop, and most of the momentum gained from the end of the season is lost.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Noop

What about Utah and Boise?

Oops Cronin prefaced it with every team in this discussion.

Utah, Ball State and Boise are the schools with the most genuine grievances. If, for example, Oklahoma finishes 11-1 and goes to the Fiesta Bowl, they have no argument that they are getting hosed or that the BCS system doesn't work.

[sooner333]

Originally Posted by cartman

I didn't say that OU shouldn't be the Big 12 South representative in the title game. Please point out where I have ever said that in this thread. What I've said all along that it isn't a slam dunk that OU should be the representative, which is what some are trying to claim. The difference between Texas and OU is negligible at this point, and a very strong case can be made for either team.

Fair enough. I would certainly welcome a rematch in Miami...just think of how fun that would be.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Matthean

The Sooners lowest scoring game this season has been 35. In other words, what you are saying is Florida is going to post at least 49 against Oklahoma. You know Oklahoma isn't the Citadel right? Let's compare Florida. Florida failed to score more than 30 against Miami(FL), Tennessee, and Mississippi. Oh, but that was in the beginning of the year. Yeah, and Oklahoma has posted 60+ in the last four with a 58 and 45 before that.

Oklahoma beat the likely Big East champ 52-26. They beat the 2nd best in the MWC 35-10. Again, the TT game. What does Florida have out of conference to compare? They don't. Oklahoma will have faced 5 ranked teams even before the Big 12 title game. Not saying Florida can't beat Oklahoma by 14, but to impy it in the way you are isn't even arrogant. It's delusional.

So, before this weekend Florida would have beaten TT by 58 since they are 14 points better than Oklahoma right? I mean, you would have totally made that bet right?

2005 Orange Bowl - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Anyway, I agree with Noop. After the loss to Ole Miss, Florida has transformed into an utterly amazing beast of a team. I've never seen a team look this good. They could blow it against Alabama or in the National Champ game, but IMO, right now, they are clearly the greatest team in college football.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

Cartman, I totally agree with you, but it seems like a lot of the Texas fans are putting the blinders on and hanging their hat on the Oct. 11 game against OU, as if nothing else matters. However, if they win out, this will be a 3-way tie for first place, and you cannot use head-to-head vs. one team.

Texas beat OU by 10 points on Oct. 11, Texas Tech beat Texas by 6 points on Nov. 1, and OU beat Texas Tech by 44 points on Nov. 22. While the circular logic might not be enough on its own, which of those three wins is the most impressive?

You have to factor in location of those games though. OU beat TT at home, while Texas went on the road to TT and still only lost on a miracle pass.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

After the loss to Ole Miss, Florida has transformed into an utterly amazing beast of a team. I've never seen a team look this good. They could blow it against Alabama or in the National Champ game, but IMO, right now, they are clearly the greatest team in college football.

If you're going to give a team a pass for losing to an unranked team on its home field, and just consider who is playing the best football right now, then you have to apply that same standard to every team.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by tarcone

The Big 10 may be bad, but its "best" team still won the conference. The PAC 10s "best" team, aka USC, couldnt win their weak conference.

What makes USC the best team in the Pac10? Public perception? OSU and USC played, OSU won...not sure i see where USC is still the better team in that logic.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

What makes USC the best team in the Pac10? Public perception? OSU and USC played, OSU won...not sure i see where USC is still the better team in that logic.

OSU won that game but they are not a better team then USC. You know that ole saying that nine times out of ten so and so; would beat so and so? Will Oregon State's victory was that one time out of ten.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by Noop

OSU won that game but they are not a better team then USC. You know that ole saying that nine times out of ten so and so; would beat so and so? Will Oregon State's victory was that one time out of ten.

I dont know, stanford loss aside what makes them a worse team? Their other two losses are to top 10 teams(Penn State and Utah), they have run through the Pac 10 undefeated, and they beat USC(and it wasnt even close for most of the game, if you remember). I think USC is getting a pass based on tradition and beating what i consider to be a vastly overrated Ohio State squad. Im sure its just me, but having watched both teams in person i think Oregon State is better. Is USC far more talented, yes. Has USC's offense developed enough to truly be a top 5 team, no. I think their defense is great, but i dont think they are nearly as good overall as the polls make them out to be.

[Noop]

Blade I understand what your saying...

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

If you're going to give a team a pass for losing to an unranked team on its home field, and just consider who is playing the best football right now, then you have to apply that same standard to every team.

I am. And based on teams playing the best football right now, Florida even beats Oklahoma IMO.

[Crim]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Even if we could combine the two teams, I don't think the the Irish Bruins could beat USC.

That lolled me.

[Crim]

Originally Posted by Noop

Well as a Florida State I can tell you now that is not going to happen, although if it those happen I will be one happy som-bitch.

Well as a Gator fan, I can tell you that I tend to agree that the chances are slim. But Spurrier took a few dominant Florida teams into Tallahassee and never won there.

This Gator team truly looks special, but I'm not (and I'll bet the team isn't) taking State lightly at all.

That said, I hope we roll you guys up by 30-ish!!!

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by Noop

OSU won that game but they are not a better team then USC. You know that ole saying that nine times out of ten so and so; would beat so and so? Will Oregon State's victory was that one time out of ten.

So just because it's USC they should get some pass? Sorry man, I don't buy that arguement. That's like me saying "Well Penn State should've beaten Iowa and could've done it 7 out of 10 times." Penn State lost to Iowa and that's that. Same with USC.

Each year that USC doesn't make the title game, I always love hearing how they are the best team left out of the title game. Well take care of business, win your games, and then show that you are the best. The Trojans have no one to blame but themselves. And have you watched them lately? They haven't exactly looked like world beaters against Arizona and Stanford.

[Crim]

Originally Posted by cartman

I didn't say that OU shouldn't be the Big 12 South representative in the title game. Please point out where I have ever said that in this thread. What I've said all along that it isn't a slam dunk that OU should be the representative, which is what some are trying to claim. The difference between Texas and OU is negligible at this point, and a very strong case can be made for either team.

Yeah this year would be a great time for the B12 to make an emergency ruling that the clear two best teams play in the champ game. I realize it's a rematch, but I'd love to see OU and UT go at it at Arrowhead with the national title game appearance at stake.

Won't happen, I know.

[Crim]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

So I assume that if Mizzou wins the B12 championship game, that neither OU or UT should be in the title game?

I realize I am already on record with respect to this subject, but yes, I personally believe that, in this current format of determining a championship based on math and polls, a team which doesn't win its conference should be ineligible to play for the national title.

[Karlifornia]

Can we retitle this thread to "So...what do the homers have to say?"

[Crim]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

Florida beating Oklahoma by 14 points?

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I can easily see that playing out.

Me too. Shit, on special teams play alone, I'd give Florida a 14 point edge. Both teams are explosive offensively, but I'd wager that Florida has four guys faster than anyone on OU's roster.

Defensively, it's almost a wash. Florida with more lateral speed on the front seven, but OU with superior DBs.

I sincerely hope this is the natl title game.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by Crim

I realize I am already on record with respect to this subject, but yes, I personally believe that, in this current format of determining a championship based on math and polls, a team which doesn't win its conference should be ineligible to play for the national title.

I couldn't agree with you more. What I think would be funny is this...

USC and Oregon State win out. The Beavers win the Pac 10.
Whoever wins the Big 12 South loses to Missouri.

So that puts the winner of the Florida-Alabama game in the title game, but who would get the other?

To throw an even bigger wrench it it all...Say Florida loses to FSU but beats Alabama. There would be some fun at the top of the BCS and that MIGHT get Utah their shot at the title game.

[Crim]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I would say if you don't want USC to get into the title game because the Pac 10 sucks, say that next time, rather than saying "if you cannot win that conference you don't deserve a shot at the National Title", if you don't believe that should be the case for the B12 teams.

I think he clarified that he was referring to the weakness of the Pac-10 with his statement. I think his statement has merit.

I would also guess that two years ago when we were having all sorts of UM-OU rematch talk in a nat'l championship game, you were probably not against that, even though the loser (as it turns out, UM) would not have been their conference champion.

And here, you have a point. Remember, though, that at that time, there was a legitimate argument that tOSU and UM were the two best teams, and that's where that talk was comming from. Thank goodness it didn't come about, though, since both got their assholes punctured real good in their bowl games.