Busy day for the Knicks

[Sgran]

Originally Posted by TroyF

1) Bron is as good as gone. I don't see how he doesn't leave for a bigger market. He wants to be in NY or LA. i just can't see him not going for it.

Just curious: how on earth do you feel capable of reading Lebron's mind? Is there anything part of his life's trajectory that mirrors your own? Were you being told from the age of 12 (?) that you were going to be the greatest basketball player ever and it's coming true? It's like claiming you know for sure what Michael Jackson's going to do next. Or are you basing your opinion on reliable media reports?

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Sgran

Just curious: how on earth do you feel capable of reading Lebron's mind? Is there anything part of his life's trajectory that mirrors your own? Were you being told from the age of 12 (?) that you were going to be the greatest basketball player ever and it's coming true? It's like claiming you know for sure what Michael Jackson's going to do next. Or are you basing your opinion on reliable media reports?

Isn't that the fun of sports? Predicting/guessing what someone is going to do? I base my opinion off of a few things:

1) Lebron has said he wants to become the first billion dollar athlete. Gonna be tough to do in Cleveland.

2) Lebron may live in Cleveland, it may be hometown and all. . . but look at his favorite teams. The Cowboys and the Yankees. That's frontrunning at it's finest. A kid from Cleveland not cheering for the longstanding Tribe or Browns, instead cheering for dynasties. Dynasties that get tons of publicities and are in big cities.

There are no reliable media reports. We are talking about something two years away. Even if Lebron had his mind made up right now, a lot of things can change in the next two years. Maybe Cleveland wins back to back titles. Or maybe Cleveland does something stupid. That changes things too.

Just my opinion, Bron is going to be gone by 2010. I HOPE he stays in Cleveland. It'd be nice for another smaller market to dominate the NBA for awhile. The Lakers look like they have their next dynasty brewing, the last thing I want is to see LA vs. NY or NJ dominate the basketbal landscape.

But I have a hunch that's exactly what will happen.

[Neuqua]

This is as good a time as any to bring up one of my favorite youtube clips:

YouTube - Zach Randolph Play Around Feb 24 2008

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by TroyF

2) I think the Clippers are about as bizzare as it gets for a basketball team now. If I had to list a top 10 "selfish" players grouping, the Clippers would have three guys on the list. Davis and Randolph on offense mixed with Camby on defense. (how'd you like Camby's defense on the pick and roll against the Spurs the other night Chief? Watch the playoff series against the Spurs/Nuggets and you'll see Pop use that same play about 20 times a game. Camby will not challenge an outside shot on a pick and roll play. He'll ALWAYS go for the player moving toward the rim)

It will make the Clippers a better offensive team, but my God are they going to suck on defense.

Don't you ever get sick of bein' a hater, Troy?

Just learn to love, baby.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Don't you ever get sick of bein' a hater, Troy?

Just learn to love, baby.

Don't be like that Chief. I do love. I love the fact the Nuggets have a real PG and are winning despite Melo shooting the ball like garbage. I like the fact we have a center who actually plays defense instead of getting out of position every possession going for blocked shots.

It's amazing, I watch Nuggets games now where the announcers are still talking about how huge of a loss Camby is. Also how huge of a loss AI is and how Billups is worse on defense.

Well, Detroit fans should see by now how opposing PG's are going to do against AI.

And as far as Camby goes? Well, the Nuggets this year are 5th in the NBA in adjusted FG%. Last year they finished 22nd in the league in the same category. Yeah, we miss Camby terribly.

One thing I'll say for your boys Chief. . . If Baron and Randolph get hot at the same time, I'm not sure how many teams in the league can beat them. The problem is I don't think they'll get hot at the same time more than 5 or 6 times this season. . . and when they don't, I have no idea how you are going to win basketball games.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Don't be like that Chief. I do love. I love the fact the Nuggets have a real PG and are winning despite Melo shooting the ball like garbage. I like the fact we have a center who actually plays defense instead of getting out of position every possession going for blocked shots.

It's amazing, I watch Nuggets games now where the announcers are still talking about how huge of a loss Camby is. Also how huge of a loss AI is and how Billups is worse on defense.

Well, Detroit fans should see by now how opposing PG's are going to do against AI.

And as far as Camby goes? Well, the Nuggets this year are 5th in the NBA in adjusted FG%. Last year they finished 22nd in the league in the same category. Yeah, we miss Camby terribly.

One thing I'll say for your boys Chief. . . If Baron and Randolph get hot at the same time, I'm not sure how many teams in the league can beat them. The problem is I don't think they'll get hot at the same time more than 5 or 6 times this season. . . and when they don't, I have no idea how you are going to win basketball games.

Glad you're happy about your team.

As for mine, you musta missed last night's game. Yeah, we still sucked, but someone finally got the time to announce his arrival to the league, and he did so with gusto.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I don't watch too much ESPN, other than when there's a game on, and I know Cleveland just played the Knicks in New York, but I can't believe how much chatter there is about what LeBron is going to do in 2010.

We're more than a year and a half from this taking place and I'm already sick of this story. Unbelievable.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Glad you're happy about your team.

As for mine, you musta missed last night's game. Yeah, we still sucked, but someone finally got the time to announce his arrival to the league, and he did so with gusto.

I like Gordon. I like the guy a lot. Actually another reason I don't really like the trade for Randolph. With Davis taking a zillion shots and Randolph taking a zillion shots, where are Kaman and Gordon going to get theirs? (two players I actually like quite a bit)

Only thing that scares me about Gordon is his size. He's 6'3", which isn't bad, but that leaves an aging Baron and an undersized Gordon as the perimeter defense. Neither Kaman, Camby or Randolph are great at defending the open shooter on the outside. Thornton also isn't a great defender.

Nuggets play the Clippers tonight. I'm worried about the game. We rarely play well in LA (against the Clippers or the Lakers) We are also fairly beat up and lack any depth at all with our bigs now. (Kenyon has a hurt wrist, will play, Anderson is still out) If Nene gets in early foul trouble, we may have a tough time stopping Kaman on the inside which will free up your shooters.

This is an important game for the Nuggets. Four games in five nights with NO and Houston being the second of the two back to backs. This game is one that would be nice to get.

[TroyF]

Good game Chief.

Some quick thoughts:

1) You guys have to make sure Gordon gets his shots. You cannot let Zach and Baron dominate the ball. The kid has some major talent and yet he ends up taking 14 shots in 42 minutes while Zach takes 11 shots in only 26 minutes. Thornton takes 12 shots in 28 minutes. Even your backup PG Taylor takes 9 shots in 17 minutes. I'm sorry, but Gordon needs more plays ran for him. Why he sat on the bench for this long is beyond me. Ricky Davis deserved time over this kid? Are you freakin kidding me?

2) If you saw the game, you saw the importance of Nene to the Nuggets. When he steps off the floor, we are a different team. Both times he was off at the end of halves, the Clippers made huge runs.

3) Melo and Chauncey continue to shoot the ball poorly, but keep everyone involved and are playing well. Melo probably had 4 passes last night that ended up as fouls for the person he fed the ball to. 30 points, 11 boards, 3 assists. Another solid night.

4) Camby taking the last three? Ummm. . . again, are you kidding me? Not his fault, but good lord.

5) Denver needs JR Smith to snap out of it. (didn't play last night, in the doghouse again) If he's taking those open threes off of Melo passes last night instead of Anthony Carter, we win that game a lot easier.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Good game Chief.

Some quick thoughts:

1) You guys have to make sure Gordon gets his shots. You cannot let Zach and Baron dominate the ball. The kid has some major talent and yet he ends up taking 14 shots in 42 minutes while Zach takes 11 shots in only 26 minutes. Thornton takes 12 shots in 28 minutes. Even your backup PG Taylor takes 9 shots in 17 minutes. I'm sorry, but Gordon needs more plays ran for him. Why he sat on the bench for this long is beyond me. Ricky Davis deserved time over this kid? Are you freakin kidding me?

2) If you saw the game, you saw the importance of Nene to the Nuggets. When he steps off the floor, we are a different team. Both times he was off at the end of halves, the Clippers made huge runs.

3) Melo and Chauncey continue to shoot the ball poorly, but keep everyone involved and are playing well. Melo probably had 4 passes last night that ended up as fouls for the person he fed the ball to. 30 points, 11 boards, 3 assists. Another solid night.

4) Camby taking the last three? Ummm. . . again, are you kidding me? Not his fault, but good lord.

5) Denver needs JR Smith to snap out of it. (didn't play last night, in the doghouse again) If he's taking those open threes off of Melo passes last night instead of Anthony Carter, we win that game a lot easier.

Hi Troy,

Sorry I didn't get back to you on this right away. I was out of town for the holiday. That said, I think the Clips' follow up game Saturday adds needed perspective as well (at least to the Clips' end of things).

1) Completely agree that Gordon needs more shots, and advocated that from Day One. It wasn't Ricky Davis keeping him on the bench, but Mobley. Somehow Mobley developed into a team leader, and Dunleavy is a "veteran's coach". Stupid, but what can you say? As for Baron and Zach getting their shots, I think they have proven enough on the offensive end that they deserve those shots, and there are enough shots to go around for all three to get their points. Thornton is another issue (although he was very good Saturday). His shot selection needs to improve drastically before he is allowed to be taking tons of shots over those other three. Kaman deserves more shots than him, too. As for Taylor, obviously, he shouldn't be among the top shot takers on the team, but keep an eye on him. He is actually very good, and one of the reasons to be excited about the team's potential.

2) Agreed, Nene was huge. Way too often the help defense came off of him, allowing him to be there for feeds and to use his impressive strength and athleticism to jump to the ball off of the rim and complete some monster jams. Kaman's injury in the first quarter killed us there. He's the guy that really would have impacted Nene's game that night.

3) Like the Clips, the Nuggets are a team in transition somewhat, as people are trying to get used to new roles. I thought Billups looked terrific, proving he can pretty much fit in almost right away just about anywhere, because he's just such a smart player. As for Melo, he's as dumb as Billups is smart, but he's your classic example of the instinct player--he was just born to play. If he ever learns to use his head, he could be even more dangerous than he is.

4) No, it is his fault, partly. There was 4-5 seconds left on that clock when he took it. He had time to get it to someone better able to score. And we didn't need a three. Just stupid and thoughtless. And Baron was stupid jumping in the area without options. No, Camby is not an option, except as an emergency. I'm not sure there is a single player on the roster that was a worse option for that shot than Camby, and screw that beating his old team BS. That single decision ruined an otherwise pretty phenomenal game, considering the Clips played without Kaman (essentially) and Ricky Davis.

5) I'm sure you're right about J.R. Smith from the "if his head's right" perspective, but what's going on with him is pretty much exactly what I expected before the season, and what I was referring to when we talked about the Nuggets at the draft. I trust Ricky Davis more than JR Smith. Think about that. I can't stand Ricky Davis.

[Logan]

WTF is all this doing in a Knicks thread?

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Hi Troy,

Sorry I didn't get back to you on this right away. I was out of town for the holiday. That said, I think the Clips' follow up game Saturday adds needed perspective as well (at least to the Clips' end of things).

1) Completely agree that Gordon needs more shots, and advocated that from Day One. It wasn't Ricky Davis keeping him on the bench, but Mobley. Somehow Mobley developed into a team leader, and Dunleavy is a "veteran's coach". Stupid, but what can you say? As for Baron and Zach getting their shots, I think they have proven enough on the offensive end that they deserve those shots, and there are enough shots to go around for all three to get their points. Thornton is another issue (although he was very good Saturday). His shot selection needs to improve drastically before he is allowed to be taking tons of shots over those other three. Kaman deserves more shots than him, too. As for Taylor, obviously, he shouldn't be among the top shot takers on the team, but keep an eye on him. He is actually very good, and one of the reasons to be excited about the team's potential.

2) Agreed, Nene was huge. Way too often the help defense came off of him, allowing him to be there for feeds and to use his impressive strength and athleticism to jump to the ball off of the rim and complete some monster jams. Kaman's injury in the first quarter killed us there. He's the guy that really would have impacted Nene's game that night.

3) Like the Clips, the Nuggets are a team in transition somewhat, as people are trying to get used to new roles. I thought Billups looked terrific, proving he can pretty much fit in almost right away just about anywhere, because he's just such a smart player. As for Melo, he's as dumb as Billups is smart, but he's your classic example of the instinct player--he was just born to play. If he ever learns to use his head, he could be even more dangerous than he is.

4) No, it is his fault, partly. There was 4-5 seconds left on that clock when he took it. He had time to get it to someone better able to score. And we didn't need a three. Just stupid and thoughtless. And Baron was stupid jumping in the area without options. No, Camby is not an option, except as an emergency. I'm not sure there is a single player on the roster that was a worse option for that shot than Camby, and screw that beating his old team BS. That single decision ruined an otherwise pretty phenomenal game, considering the Clips played without Kaman (essentially) and Ricky Davis.

5) I'm sure you're right about J.R. Smith from the "if his head's right" perspective, but what's going on with him is pretty much exactly what I expected before the season, and what I was referring to when we talked about the Nuggets at the draft. I trust Ricky Davis more than JR Smith. Think about that. I can't stand Ricky Davis.

Disagree on #5 Chief. Yeah, JR is an idiot. But as far as "trust" goes? I trust JR far more than Ricky. At the very least, I know that when JR gets minutes, he'll put the ball in the basket. He's also not nearly as selfish as Davis. Stupid? Oh yeah, really, really stupid. But selfish? Not really. He's a willing passer, he's just dumb.

Last night against the Rockets he came up huge. Melo went down in the first half. It was our 4th game in 5 nights. JR came on and was huge. Five three pointers and some great assists and only a couple of turnovers.

I also disagree slightly that the Nuggets are a team in transition. Yeah, they need to learn to play together and everyone is still getting a feel for Chauncey. . . but, this is the way the team should have been all along. Everyone seems comfortable in their roles. Denver is now 11-3 in the post AI era. The three losses were on the road to the Lakers and Cavs and a down to the wire nail biter against the Hornets on the second night of a back to back. (facing a rested Hornets team)

This team now has an identity and it's taking over close games in the second half. Something it rarely did with AI. This team is going to start making believers of people if Nene and Kenyon stay healthy.

Logan,

Why is this going on in a Knicks thread? Because there really isn't any real Knicks discussions now for two years. 2010 is when the Knicks start their rebuilding. With or without Lebron.

[Logan]

Oh don't worry, I don't care. It's just that whenever this gets bumped I keep hoping it's because of a Marbury buyout or a Curry exile.

[Lathum]

Marburry is a fucking idiot.

I really wish these atheletes like Marburry and Winslow would stop comparing themselves to military, it's insulting.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Disagree on #5 Chief. Yeah, JR is an idiot. But as far as "trust" goes? I trust JR far more than Ricky. At the very least, I know that when JR gets minutes, he'll put the ball in the basket. He's also not nearly as selfish as Davis. Stupid? Oh yeah, really, really stupid. But selfish? Not really. He's a willing passer, he's just dumb.

Last night against the Rockets he came up huge. Melo went down in the first half. It was our 4th game in 5 nights. JR came on and was huge. Five three pointers and some great assists and only a couple of turnovers.

But, you see, that's exactly what I am talking about. I can "trust" Ricky Davis to be a popgun offense guy who will take stupid shots, be selfish and only give a half ass effort on D. I know I'll get a steal and a couple assists to go along with a poor shooting percentage and probably 7-8 points at the lowest possible efficiency. It's the same game every time he plays.

Meanwhile, JR can not play for two games and then suddenly have a game like you said against the Rockets. Can't depend on that at all. If Carter is there every night and gives you at least a little production you can count on, I'll take that over the "he's here now, where will he be tomorrow" JR Smith act.

Unfortunately for the Nuggets, Kenyon Martin's sorta the same way. I hope for your sake that your team doesn't have to depend on either of them, because it's a guaranteed first round flameout again if they do.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

But, you see, that's exactly what I am talking about. I can "trust" Ricky Davis to be a popgun offense guy who will take stupid shots, be selfish and only give a half ass effort on D. I know I'll get a steal and a couple assists to go along with a poor shooting percentage and probably 7-8 points at the lowest possible efficiency. It's the same game every time he plays.

Meanwhile, JR can not play for two games and then suddenly have a game like you said against the Rockets. Can't depend on that at all. If Carter is there every night and gives you at least a little production you can count on, I'll take that over the "he's here now, where will he be tomorrow" JR Smith act.

Unfortunately for the Nuggets, Kenyon Martin's sorta the same way. I hope for your sake that your team doesn't have to depend on either of them, because it's a guaranteed first round flameout again if they do.

JR is more consistent than you give him credit for. He's struggled badly this month, but he's generally played fairly consistently when he's been given minutes. Psychotic? Of course.

As for Kenyon, I'm not sure people realize how great of a player he is. Is he overpaid? Yeah. But counting on him? Oh, I can count on him on a nightly basis. He's going to OWN his man. Night in, night out. Last year Kenyon was the second best defensive player in the league in adjusted +/- ratings. (82games.com)

It's hard to get actual positional numbers for the guy, because he seriously plays everyone. In last years playoffs, he went man to man against Kobe. The other night, he was put man on man with no help against Yao Ming in the fourth quarter. And he shut the guy down.

All Kenyon does is play great defense, average close to 2 steals and 1.5 blocks a game, play unselfish offense, shoot over 50% and play hard as hell for 30 minutes a night.

The scary thing about counting on Kenyon is his health. That's also the scary thing with Nene. If those two can stay healthy, Denver will be a top 4 seed and they'll get out of the first round. If either go down for an extended amount of time, Denver claws and fight their way to an 8th seed and then gets bounced in the first round again. Everyone bashes Denver for not getting out of round one, but the reason they never get out of round one is because of things that happen in the regular season. They consistently are the 7th or 8th seed going up against the Spurs or Lakers on the road, what the hell do people expect when that happens?

Do I expect our health to hold out? No. I'm a Nuggets fan. We once lost starting players for the year in game one in back to back seasons. Nene has never been fully healthy. KMart is playing on two microfractures. We have zero depth as far as the bigs are concerned. Losing either Kenyon or Nene would be a disasterous blow. And it's probably going to happen.

But if they stay healthy? If Denver can get 70+ games from Nene, Kenyon and not have a season ending injury to Melo, Billups or JR? You can book it, Denver will be a top 4 seed.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by TroyF

The scary thing about counting on Kenyon is his health. That's also the scary thing with Nene. If those two can stay healthy, Denver will be a top 4 seed and they'll get out of the first round.

I think because of the injuries people forget that Kenyon was the #1 overall pick in 2000 - he's a hell of a player....when healthy and much like you I just don't see both him and Nene staying healthy all year. If they do, Denver's definitely got a solid starting lineup. But I think its just too much of a risk relying on both staying healthy, let alone one even staying healthy given their pasts.

BTW, is the 2000 draft the worst draft ever? The top 10

1, Kenyon Martin
2. Stromile Swift
3. Darius Miles
4. Marcus Fizer
5. Mike Miller
6. DerMarr Johnson
7. Chris Mihm
8. Jamal Crawford
9. Joel Pryzbilla
10. Keyon Dooling

You had Turkoglu at 16 and Michael Redd at 43 - other than that its total crap. Quentin Richardson and Morris Peterson had a few good years but when they're probably the 6th and 7th best players out of that draft you know it was ugly.

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

I think because of the injuries people forget that Kenyon was the #1 overall pick in 2000 - he's a hell of a player....when healthy and much like you I just don't see both him and Nene staying healthy all year. If they do, Denver's definitely got a solid starting lineup. But I think its just too much of a risk relying on both staying healthy, let alone one even staying healthy given their pasts.

BTW, is the 2000 draft the worst draft ever? The top 10

1, Kenyon Martin
2. Stromile Swift
3. Darius Miles
4. Marcus Fizer
5. Mike Miller
6. DerMarr Johnson
7. Chris Mihm
8. Jamal Crawford
9. Joel Pryzbilla
10. Keyon Dooling

You had Turkoglu at 16 and Michael Redd at 43 - other than that its total crap. Quentin Richardson and Morris Peterson had a few good years but when they're probably the 6th and 7th best players out of that draft you know it was ugly.

This reminds me of a couple drafts I've had in my DDS:PB dynasty.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

I think because of the injuries people forget that Kenyon was the #1 overall pick in 2000 - he's a hell of a player....when healthy and much like you I just don't see both him and Nene staying healthy all year. If they do, Denver's definitely got a solid starting lineup. But I think its just too much of a risk relying on both staying healthy, let alone one even staying healthy given their pasts.

BTW, is the 2000 draft the worst draft ever? The top 10

1, Kenyon Martin
2. Stromile Swift
3. Darius Miles
4. Marcus Fizer
5. Mike Miller
6. DerMarr Johnson
7. Chris Mihm
8. Jamal Crawford
9. Joel Pryzbilla
10. Keyon Dooling

You had Turkoglu at 16 and Michael Redd at 43 - other than that its total crap. Quentin Richardson and Morris Peterson had a few good years but when they're probably the 6th and 7th best players out of that draft you know it was ugly.

Not just a good starting lineup Gary, a fairly solid bench. The only issue with the bench is that the guys on it are great bench players, but not players who can come in and start. Example: Linus Kleiza, Chris Anderson and Anthony Carter. All three are terrific 20 minute a night players. Can any of them step in and play for 30+ minutes? Not a chance in hell.

As for Kenyon and Nene, I don't think they can stay healthy. The only cause for any kind of optimism is these two things:

1) Kenyon played in 71 games last year and says his knees are both stronger this year. He's always been a workout demon and is in great physical shape.

2) Nene is only 26 years old. His knee injury is three years old now and the things that impacted him the last two years (cancer and various muscle strains due to being out of shape) are in the past.

What would I say the odds are? I'll go with 40% that both stay healthy and 65 to 70% that one stays healthy.

That draft was a joke. Hell, it could be argued Brian Cardinal was a top ten player from that draft. Painful. Only Kenyon and Redd ever made an all star team out of that draft. FWIW, I think the Nuggets have had 8 members of that draft class on the roster at one point or another, including 6 first rounders. (Kenyon, Dermarr Johnson, Courtney Alexander, Mateen Cleeves, Donnell Harvey, Ndai, Najera, McClintok)

Only Kenyon and Eddie ever really did anything for us. The rest were gone fairly quickly.