California just outdid itself

[Primal]

Originally posted by thesloppy
Well, I think the problem resides in the fact that they are coming, whether we want them or not, and whether we want to admit it or not, we are dependant on them as workers. The only realistic way to slow the flow of illegal aliens into California is to make it easier to emigrate legally, which opens a whole different can of worms.

Thats why the government needs to pass laws forcing all government contractors and their sub contracters to follow the laws.

This puts the responsibility on the businesses and they will feel the pinch of breaking the law.

[thirdandlong]

I am not happy with giving illegal immigrants drivers licenses. I think we should come up with an alternative that shows they passed their drivers tests, but does not convey the same "perception of citizenship" as a Drivers License or ID card. Of course for this to work, we would also have to pass a law that legally allowed them to work here.

I live in the heart of a huge agricultural area in California. Illegal Aliens working in our fields, the ones 100 feet behind my house, are simply a reality. In fact there were 30 laborers out there this morning. How many of them were legal? I have NO clue. I do know that the farm labor contractor hired to harvest the vines guarantees they are. I have my doubts, but I aint gonna pick those grapes myself either.

I don't want to give them the defacto rights of citizens, but I know they are here, working and driving. We should make it legal for them to do so.

I don't really have a problem with Illegal immigrants who are here in California to work. I am bothered by the illegal immigrants that are on our welfare rolls. That was why I was for the infamous proposition 187. I think it did go a bit far by denying education to illegals and the children of Illegals(possibly citizens themselves)didnt' really make me happy. Included this paragraph to show I was a racist bigot(as all of us who voted for 187 are), and not some treehugging liberal.

[heybrad]

Originally posted by Butter_of_69
Don't let that cloud your view of the hard-working folks who just want to get their family a little further ahead.

On whose dime and at what point does it become too expensive and stop? Keep in mind while answering that, that the next piece of legislation being introduced is a bill to subsidize insurance for illegals since they cant afford it.

[heybrad]

Dola...

Why a California license? I lived in Grenada for a year and had no problem getting an international license so I could drive. Is there really no other alternative than to possibly open up the doors to voter fraud and identity theft?

[heybrad]

Double Dola...

When did we start to believe that only immigrants will take certain jobs. Dont those jobs exist in other states? Didnt they exist before illegal immigration became all the rage? You would think we never ate grapes before.

[cuervo72]

Triple heybrad!

[Butter]

Originally posted by heybrad
On whose dime and at what point does it become too expensive and stop?

I have no idea. I was responding (originally) to the original point that illegal immigrants have more rights than legal American (and Californian) citizens.

I think thesloppy is on the right track suggesting that improved immigration policy is the right track to success in resolving this "problem".

[heybrad]

Originally posted by Butter_of_69
I have no idea. I was responding (originally) to the original point that illegal immigrants have more rights than legal American (and Californian) citizens.

I think thesloppy is on the right track suggesting that improved immigration policy is the right track to success in resolving this "problem".

I'm not going after you personally Butter. Actually based on this last response, you might agree that the leaders of California have absolutely no vision for the future. Whether illegal immigrants are hard workers or not, it doesnt change the fact that they can be a strain on the state budget. If Bustamante wins we may see more businesses leave California and then who's going to foot the bill or should all the illegal immigrants move on to the next state.

[rexallllsc]

Originally posted by heybrad
Keep in mind while answering that, that the next piece of legislation being introduced is a bill to subsidize insurance for illegals since they cant afford it.

Are you serious?

[Primal]

Originally posted by rexallllsc
Are you serious?

Yes, and they are trying to have the Businesses float the bill.

Just think of how many jobs California will lose if that one passes.

[Primal]

Originally posted by Primal
Yes, and they are trying to have the Businesses float the bill.

Just think of how many jobs California will lose if that one passes.

And a side note... They are trying to tack that bill onto the work mans comp legislation. So the legislatures can pretend they are doing something for the business by saying they are working out the work mans comp issues, but have tacked this on within the bill.

[Primal]

Bah, one more post then I’ll stop for a bit.

It just shows how much of a communist state California has become.

[Butter]

Originally posted by heybrad
Whether illegal immigrants are hard workers or not, it doesnt change the fact that they can be a strain on the state budget. If Bustamante wins we may see more businesses leave California and then who's going to foot the bill or should all the illegal immigrants move on to the next state.

Yeah, the thing that bothers me most about politics in general is the lack of a clear vision. Bush's plans of raping the future to fund the present are woefully short-sighted. And Gray Davis's general pandering to the minority voters (of all sorts) in California is really not considering the real problem. How the hell are they (either one of these guys) going to balance the budget reasonably? The main Republican and Democratic candidates in most major races seem to be keen on playing the same old cards over and over and over instead of trying to make some real change... the problem being, of course, that real change is generally met with mighty resistance at first, so voters are usually hard-pressed to go with a truly progressive candidate.

[Hyde]

I know that in the construction field, there are alot of great workers who are illegal and all of the companies dont think twice about hiring them. What bothers me the most about this practice is that most of these guys work as sub-contract labor while providing a fictious ID. This allows them to avoid paying ANY taxes. I agree that businesses that hire illegal workers should be punished harshly IF they get caught. Theres nothing quite like having sat without work for a few days and driving by the sites and seeing a crew of illegals taking citizens jobs....

I believe that if you are here illegaly and get caught, then you should FIRST serve a month in jail, THEN get deported. Or better yet, you should FIRST be forced to watch the movie BARCELONA, THEN get deported.

[Franklinnoble]

Originally posted by Butter_of_69
.. the problem being, of course, that real change is generally met with mighty resistance at first, so voters are usually hard-pressed to go with a truly progressive candidate.

The problem is, most "progressive" candidates are nutjobs like Ralph Nader.

Of all the major candidates running on the California recall ticket, Bustamante is the one that disgusts me the most. He's taken over $2.8 million from Indian casinos (but insists that it won't influence his policy when it comes to gaming compacts), while at the same time slamming special interests and campaign finance loopholes. The "Recall no, Bustamante yes" slogan of his smacks of hypocrisy. And nobody's pandering more to the minority vote than this scumbag...

What frightens me most is that he actually might win... and if he doesn't it'll only be because we have Schwarzenegger to thank for it.... *shudder*

[Hyde]

Note to anyone that is for giving illegal immigrants drivers licenses and our jobs: While your at it, why dont you just pay all of my share of federal and state taxes too. Then maybe we can say that it is a level playing field. Thanks.

[Primal]

Originally posted by Franklinnoble
Of all the major candidates running on the California recall ticket, Bustamante is the one that disgusts me the most. He's taken over $2.8 million from Indian casinos (but insists that it won't influence his policy when it comes to gaming compacts), while at the same time slamming special interests and campaign finance loopholes. The "Recall no, Bustamante yes" slogan of his smacks of hypocrisy. And nobody's pandering more to the minority vote than this scumbag...

What frightens me most is that he actually might win... and if he doesn't it'll only be because we have Schwarzenegger to thank for it.... *shudder*

I completely agree, Bustamante will be a nightmare. Plus he's already stated he'd raise taxes.

Huffington is a joke too. All she talks about is the corporate tax loop holes while she hasn't paid a dime of taxes in the past 2 years.

[thesloppy]

Originally posted by Hyde
Note to anyone that is for giving illegal immigrants drivers licenses and our jobs:

Perhaps I'm naive, but I don't consider these two topics related in any way. According to your other post, the immigrants already have a good share of your jobs, how does giving them a license affect that situation in any way? The immigrants are here already, and there is no free ticket out of the situation...massive penalties for businesses and making life unhappy for immigrants would still cost hundreds of millions of your tax dollars and keep California deep in debt at the cost of other programs, as well as probably directly reducing your pay and hours to account for the new costs to your workplace.

The issues surrounding illegal aliens remind me of the 'war on drugs' in that there appears to be two schools of thought, those that want legislation that aims toward an ideal, rather than the current situation itself, and those that favor addressing the current situation as it is, perhaps at the cost of the future. I would count myself in the second group, as I think passing legislation that is harsher on illegal aliens ignores the fact that it won't do anything to curb the influx of immigrants, but on the other hand I can admit that passing laws that bend around current conditions don't do much to change the situation.

It appears to me that most of the concern over this issue actually has nothing to do with the bill itself, and more to do with 'what's next?', which is completley understandable, but not necessarily rational.

[thirdandlong]

The Bustamante Finance loophole is pretty riduculous. I doubt he is the only one to take advantage of it though.

It is obviously illegal for an organization to donate more than $21500(may have gone up slightly) to an active or current campaign fund. There are no laws against donating to an "inactive" or "previous" campaign fund. The casinos are contributing huge sums to Bustamante's Lt Governor campaign fund. There is also a law that allows a candidate to transfer any amount of funds from a previous campaign fund to a current fund. So the Indians and others donate unrestricted amounts to the old fund, and then Bustamante transfers it to the current account. Pretty nifty eh?

[Franklinnoble]

Originally posted by thirdandlong
The Bustamante Finance loophole is pretty riduculous. I doubt he is the only one to take advantage of it though.

It is obviously illegal for an organization to donate more than $21500(may have gone up slightly) to an active or current campaign fund. There are no laws against donating to an "inactive" or "previous" campaign fund. The casinos are contributing huge sums to Bustamante's Lt Governor campaign fund. There is also a law that allows a candidate to transfer any amount of funds from a previous campaign fund to a current fund. So the Indians and others donate unrestricted amounts to the old fund, and then Bustamante transfers it to the current account. Pretty nifty eh?

I've read the Bee... I know this.

He's exploiting an obvious loophole. What makes it extra-shitty is that he's blasting "special interest" politics at the same time.

He's a lying, two-faced dirtbag, and he's completely unapologetic about it.

[The Afoci]

To me, I don't understand why we should give the DL to them. They are here illegally. So are we just giving up? That would be like passing a law saying that possession of weed is legal but purchasing it is illegal. It makes no sense.

On a side note, if they are here for the jobs, there are work permits that can be acquired for special jobs.

[Franklinnoble]

Originally posted by The Afoci
here for the jobs, there are work permits that can be acquired for special jobs.

Hey... we can't do that... then we'd have to pay them minimum wage. If we leave them undocumented and illegal, we can pay cash off the books at $2 an hour.

[Primal]

Oh, one more thing to add on to the DL.

Guess what document you need to get a gun? Yes, only a drivers license.

[JPhillips]

Actually Primal the only document you need to get a gun is a dollar bill.

[Primal]

Originally posted by JPhillips
Actually Primal the only document you need to get a gun is a dollar bill.

Ok, to legally get a gun you need a drivers license.

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by JPhillips
Actually Primal the only document you need to get a gun is a dollar bill.

Somebody is selling guns for a dollar? What a bargin.

[Coffee Warlord]

Ya know, last I checked, illegal immigrants were still, you know, illegal.

They are not afforded rights (or at least should not be) under American law. They are here ILLEGALLY. That would be, without authorization from the American government. They are really no different from an invading country. Sure, their intentions are different, but it's the same principle.

Find them, send them home. Period. They want to make a life here, they come through legal channels. You (as in americans) don't think its fair/just/whatever, change the law. Don't ignore it entirely.

And kindly don't attempt the 'technically, my ancestors were illegal immigrants' line. No, they weren't. America had no such laws regulating the flow of immigrants back then. There wasn't even an America back then. The moment we, as the US, placed laws on immigration, the tradition of theentire world coming here unchecked ended.

[thirdandlong]

Originally posted by The Afoci
To me, I don't understand why we should give the DL to them. They are here illegally. So are we just giving up? That would be like passing a law saying that possession of weed is legal but purchasing it is illegal. It makes no sense.

On a side note, if they are here for the jobs, there are work permits that can be acquired for special jobs.

The jobs most of these people are filling are Farm Labor. I am pretty darned sure there is not a work permit system that will work for Farm Labor. Then again I guess the threshold is in some cases like tech jobs, you have to be doing a job that no Citizen is available to do. That is employers have to advertise the job an alien is performing, and weed out all qualified applicants. Then again these farm labor contractors aren't gonna go through that complicated mess, if they can just blindly accept the "documents" they are presented with.

I would actually support a special work program for migrant workers. Their "permit" to be here would have to be limited in duration as in requiring renewal each year or some such.

It is pretty much a fact thaty they are here. If they are working, and not just sitting on welfare I don't see what problems they present.

[clintl]

FWIW, there's a big article in the Sacramento Bee today about this issue. Apparently, it has only been since 1994 that illegal immigrants couldn't get a California driver's license. This would just return things to the pre-1994 situation. Furthermore, there are 14 other states that allow illegal immigrants to have driver's licenses, so it is not even a unique law that California is enacting. All these doom-and-gloom scenarios appear to be greatly exaggerated, since there's a long history of illegal immigrants having driver's licenses, and none of the problems the doom-and-gloomers here are expecting have actually happened in practice.

[NoMyths]

Originally posted by Primal
Ok, to legally get a gun you need a drivers license.

Ok, to legally drive you need a drivers licence.

[Primal]

Originally posted by NoMyths
Ok, to legally drive you need a drivers licence.

It looks like all those years of college finally paid off for you.

[Butter]

Originally posted by GrantDawg
Somebody is selling guns for a dollar? What a bargin.

This cracked me up. More than normal, even.