Jesse Helms Died This Morning

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Grammaticus

Actually you did and supported it in your response post. You are saying that racist views appeal to people in North Carolina. Right?

I'm just saying that is a very arrogant and short sighted thing to imply.

Without trying to get into what Larry was attempting to say in his post... I don't think its unreasonable at all to say that Helms racist views were appealing to many voters in North Carolina. I grew up here and into the early 1990s racism was a major part of life here. I know its all relative and I'm not talking about oppression and civil rights stuff, but there were racial undercurrents everywhere, all the time. I grew up in a rural area but went to a school in downtown Raleigh that was mostly black. My best friend in elementary and middle school was black, and many people in my neighborhood were angry that my parents would allow him to spend the night on occasion. My own grandmother who I thought when I was a kid was a perfect lady, would say he was "nice for a black kid" and there were people in my town who would drive 30 minutes to the closest grocery store in Raleigh because the grocery store in town was on the other side of the tracks, "where the blacks stay"

There were constant, almost daily reminders of the racial views of a large number of people around me, and while that's all anecdotal, I would expect many others here who grew up in the south could list 10, 20, maybe 30+ people they knew who shared similar views, maybe not overtly hateful and racist, but people who said enough and whose actions more than gave away how they were raised and how they still tended to think.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by KWhit

What I can't believe about this thread is that "not being a racist fuck" is being referred to as "political correctness."

Just in case this was a reference to my comments.

I really was referring to his stance on political correctness, and not racism. I actually love the example of his interaction with Carol Mosely Braun in this thread. Here a fellow senator played the race card and attempted to shame him. His reaction? He let her know he wasn't going to play her games. If she can't handle him singing a little song, then he darn well isn't going to back down and stop. He threw it right back at her, and belittled her for trying to screw with him.

For the record I believe that dixie is a song, the confederate flag is the flag of a defeated nation, and that neither should be defacto banned eventhough they have become symbols of a hated belief simply because some people are "offended". Grow a thicker skin. If something bothers you, speak out about it, but don't go the victim route and seek to censor someone else simply because you are offended by something they say or a symbol they display. Make it clear that those who would sing Dixie or fly a confederate flag are supporting old tired and hated ideas. Just don't play on public's sensitivity to prevent someone from expressing those old tired beliefs.

Also for the record, his interaction with Braun demonstrates that the guy was a first rate prick. I do respect him for refusing to crawl into a cave when she portrayed him as an insensitive racist in the media(or to whomever she complained).

[Karlifornia]

Grammaticus...racist views may or may not appeal to people in North Carolina. It's certainly not black and white. What is black and white is that this guy got re-elected many, many times by the state of North Carolina. You think this guy would stand a chance in, say, Michigan? New Hampshire? Arizona? Washington?

[DrAFTjunkie]

Motherf*ck a Jesse Helms. IMHO, there's aboslolutely nothing noble about sticking to your guns if your guns are pointed at other people because of the color for their f*cking skin, their religion (or lack thereof), and who they "choose" to love. Ohhhh, he stuck to his guns, esta loco. He was opposed to affirmative action, ok...that's fine. I waver on that issue myself (for non-racist reasons, mind you), but he was opposed to civil rights as a whole. For those who don't know (and it pains me to feel the need to explain this, as I feel a lot of you are in the dark as to the actual definition) civil rights are the rights by birth to life liberty and the ownership of property for all humans. "Some people are just born bums," Jesse Helms once said...on national television, mind you. Do the Helms admirers posting in this thread agree with that? Are babies born bums, or not bums based on the color of thier skin? I know that a lot of babies never have a fighting chance to end upas anything but "bums" because of the color of their skin. You may think it's not true, but I do a lot of volunteer work including work with inner-city youth and most of these kids never had/don't have a chance. This one kid I work with volunteers for Special Olympics with me, and he is a spectacular kid. He's bright, kind, humble and a natural-born leader. I dropped him off after practice Saturday and I wanted to cry. His house was falling apart, there were prostitutes less than 100 yards from his front door (in broad daylight) and bling-laden kids who were clearly drug dealers closer to his house than that. The worst part is that his family is proud as punch that he got himself a job at KFC and can now be a man and help support the household. He's only 17 and already (lets be honest) headed for a dead end because they need every cent they can get and college is not going to be an option for him. He's already talking about dropping out to work full time because he, from what I gather, wants them to be prouder of him and wants to contribute more. His ceiling is like...district manager, if he's lucky. My son will have opportunities coming out of his ass because of his big blue eyes. It's not fair and I hate it. The truth hurts

Blacks have been (figuratvely and literally) beaten down their entire tenure in this country, never afforded the same (what should be "god-given") opportunities as whites and henceforth most don't have the "rise above" mentality that you might think they should have. Why would they? They've never known anything but poor; they're parents have never known anything but poor, and so on.Consequentually, "they're" not raising their children with the notion that they can "make it out alive." Why fill their kids' heads with what will probably turn out to be false hopes? But the fact is: that if a young black man/woman doesn't ever know that he can rise above, why would white people assume that they should be overcoming their adversities? The schools suck. The teachers suck. The neighborhoods suck. The only role models offered to them by the media are morally corrupt rappers, athletes, bleached black people like Oprah, Condie and Colin and assassinated icons from another era. The military tries to entice them with the GI bill, but how can you utilize that benefit if you can't support yourself while going to school? You need a support system and unfortunately, most of these kids don't have one. They get used up and spit out. It pisses me off to no end.

Ever notice that McDonalds commercials are full of white families until the product they're hawking is chicken?

I pray that Obama wins and maybe a whole generation sees that there is more to the world for a black individual than brick buildings, dilapidated neighborhoods, gangs and crack rocks. I hate that Barack had to distnace himself from his pastor because of the "racisim" he was preaching. Most of that shit he was saying about white America is true. I so badly want to see Obama pound fists with Michelle on inauguration day.

It also pisses me off that the white guilt PC machine would have me calling them not black, but "African Americans" rather than just plain old Americans.

I grew up in the inner-city. I made it out because I had people telling me I could. My parents and family let me know that the sky was the limit because it is true...for a white kid. My friend Larry (a black kid and a far better person than me) is still there. They saw it was possible because we were white and they saw all the power and money was in white hands. Chances are, there is a ceiling for me because I'm Irish-Catholic, but that's an entirely different arguement.

I'm digressing even further, but let me ask you Helms lovers this: Are you the type of people that will root for your sports teams knowing full well that you wouldn't want a Strahan living next to you? Or is it ok because he's one of the "good ones?" Did you say "yay 'we' won" when your Giants, Cowboys, Bulldogs, or Tarheels win? Sure, It's ok if a predominantley black team wins "you" games, but if they want to date your daughter, or live in your well-to-do neighborhoods, whoh... Are you the type of people who will follow up the precurser "I'm not racist, but..." with a racist statement?

Helms raillied against MLK Jr. and the other "negro hoodlums" of the 60's and opposed the national holiday until he died. Some have said that MLK was a racist himself because he opposed and spoke out against a system that was designed for and by white males. Was MLK a hoodlum for speaking the truth? Despite all that was stacked against him by a racist white system, he loved his white brothers and welcomed them into his fold with love and open arms. Watch some of the footage from some of his marches and protests. White faces dotted the crowds. The only black faces you ever saw at Klan rallies were swinging from branches.

It sickens me that people will spout off the names of black racists to somehow try to validate white racism. It's wrong all around. Jesse Jackson is a d-bag for his hymietown comments and it ruined his political career. Yet Helms thrived for decades in the senate, despite being a bigger and certainly more vocal racist. He never garnered more than like...55% of any vote despite frequently outnumbering his opponents' campaign funds by a 10 to 1 margin. A lot of these funds were raised very illegally by his "National Conservative Club," which IMHO were nothing more than Klan members in suits.

Jesse Helms was opposed to rights for homosexuals, and women, though he supported murderous South American dictators if they shared his religion and hatreds, yet said he was opposed to foreign aid in any capacity. "Some things are more important that human life," he once said. Do you agree, and if so, what is more important?

It's been said that Jesse Helms was a proponant of the "little man" which, to me, translates into the racist white minority. His budget cuts and proposed budget cuts affected the poor, the elderly, the arts, etc., etc. He was nothing more than an elitist southern white cracker who, regardless of what he said only wanted the rich to get richer (as long as they were white) and the poor to get poorer. And he was a f*cking slumlord to boot.

President Bush has said that God is lovingly welcoming Jesse Helms into heaven. If that's true, I'd rather go to hell. Actually, for once in my life, I hope their is no heaven, because I'd rather rot in the ground than think that his soul lives on somewhere.

[Subby]

Originally Posted by DrAFTjunkie

Ever notice that McDonalds commercials are full of white families until the product they're hawking is chicken?

OR SWEET TEA!!!!1

[chesapeake]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

Just in case this was a reference to my comments.

I really was referring to his stance on political correctness, and not racism. I actually love the example of his interaction with Carol Mosely Braun in this thread. Here a fellow senator played the race card and attempted to shame him. His reaction? He let her know he wasn't going to play her games. If she can't handle him singing a little song, then he darn well isn't going to back down and stop. He threw it right back at her, and belittled her for trying to screw with him.

He taunted her in the elevator and elsewhere well before any vote on the Confederate flag. He was always deeply offended that there was, not only a black person in his Senate, but a black woman! The audacity.

So for those that honor Helms for clinging to his bigotry in the face of criticism, do you find Byrd to be an unprincipled flip-flopper because he recanted his?

[illinifan999]

Originally Posted by DrAFTjunkie

It sickens me that people will spout off the names of black racists to somehow try to validate white racism.

It's wrong all around.

He was nothing more than an elitist southern white cracker

[molson]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

Couldn't the same thing be said about Adolf Hitler?

This was posted much earlier in the thread, but I think it deserves a re-posting after the way this thread has gone.

Hitler's another guy that stuck to his viewpoints in the face of pressure to be PC.

[molson]

Originally Posted by chesapeake

So for those that honor Helms for clinging to his bigotry in the face of criticism, do you find Byrd to be an unprincipled flip-flopper because he recanted his?

That's a good point. If one has bigoted views they can either A: Change, or B: Stubbornly stay the same in changing times. Only one of those is remotely admirable.

[DrAFTjunkie]

Originally Posted by illinifan999

All of that text and thats what you chose to comment on?



(in Stewie Griffin voice)

"Yutz"

I'll tell you what, calling a person, let alone an entire race of people "bums" despite not knowing them personally is racist. The word racist, to me, implies that the offending person thinks that their race is superior.

*digression alert*

There is a big difference between racism and predjudice. If I see a black youth walking down the street listening to an IPod and assume that he's listening to hip-hop, that's prejudice. If I see an Indian person at a restaruant and assume he's not eating beef, that's prejudice. But I have statistical numbers to back up those pre-judgements. Most black kids listen to mostly hip-hop; most (Hindu) Indians don't eat beef. If I think I'm better than them, or my race is better than them for any reason, that's racism. I have no statistical proof that me, or my race are better people, or entitled to better treatment than anyone else, or any other race.

The term cracker is short for whip-cracker, a term that originated in reference to white slave owners. The fact that Jesse Helms was whistling Dixie to a black lady in an elevator, the fact that he was anti-civil rights and pro segregation is proof enough for me to assume that if it were legal, he would be a slave owner, and therefore allows me the right to call him a cracker.

But you're allowed to think what you want to think, hear what you want to hear and ignore what you want to ignore. After all, it's America.

[RendeR]

I think many of you are missing the point and I know draft is just blazingly missing it altogether.

Let me try to put this another way:

A man (Bob) holds beliefs that people find despicable, he makes a racial slur or takes a stance publicly against gay rights or somethng. The public and media ostricize the guy, shred him openly and regularly for weeks. Seeing this, Bob recants his comments and apologizes publicly for what he said. Bob does not CHANGE mind you, he's simply bowing to public pressure.

This man is a patheic worthless douchebag.

Helms on the other hand, while still being a douchebag, does so by standing up for himself and holding true to himself. no matter how patheitc shitty and worthless WE think that self was, the fact that he didn't just fall in line publicly while holding on to those beliefs makes a BIG difference.

Helms was pathetic, indeed, worthless as a member of the US Legislature when it came to anything resembling human rights. but if I had to look at (Bob) and Helms side by side, I'd have more respect for helms.

Does that make more sense to anyone?


Oh and Draft: The Cracker line? that just destroyed any possible merit your entire post might have held. Totally blew your position by tossing that out there. You're no better than Helms.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Helms on the other hand, while still being a douchebag, does so by standing up for himself and holding true to himself. no matter how patheitc shitty and worthless WE think that self was, the fact that he didn't just fall in line publicly while holding on to those beliefs makes a BIG difference.

You don't think he was holding back his true racial beliefs some? I think it's a fair bet that he toned things down quite a bit in public.

Otherwise, I get what you're saying, but I can't get past the part where his public persona and views were very popular in North Carolina, and that speaking his mind (or at least a watered-down version of his mind) was to his political advantage. He could have done what Bob did, but he then he might not get elected.

[RendeR]

With the way today's media eats people alive for the slightest HINT of an off color remark I'd say he was still way out there. Anyway, I've gone from not shedding a tear to defending some rather obtuse point on this whole thread.

Helms was a maggot and won't be missed by many. nuff said.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by chesapeake

He taunted her in the elevator and elsewhere well before any vote on the Confederate flag. He was always deeply offended that there was, not only a black person in his Senate, but a black woman! The audacity.

So for those that honor Helms for clinging to his bigotry in the face of criticism, do you find Byrd to be an unprincipled flip-flopper because he recanted his?

I may be missing something where Helms publicly clung to his racist ideology even in the last days of his tenure in the Senate. I would paint he and Byrd with essentially the same brush with respect to their positions on race and racism.

I'm also reading your account of the Mosely Braun incident above as your extrapolation of the events rather than Helms' actual position. If he was really incensed that a black woman's presence in the Senate, then he deserves even less credit than I give him. I'm reading those events as if he was incensed that a peer of his chose to play victim of racism card rather than deal with the issue through directly confronting him.

[illinifan999]

Originally Posted by DrAFTjunkie

All of that text and thats what you chose to comment on?



(in Stewie Griffin voice)

"Yutz"

I'll tell you what, calling a person, let alone an entire race of people "bums" despite not knowing them personally is racist. The word racist, to me, implies that the offending person thinks that their race is superior.

*digression alert*

There is a big difference between racism and predjudice. If I see a black youth walking down the street listening to an IPod and assume that he's listening to hip-hop, that's prejudice. If I see an Indian person at a restaruant and assume he's not eating beef, that's prejudice. But I have statistical numbers to back up those pre-judgements. Most black kids listen to mostly hip-hop; most (Hindu) Indians don't eat beef. If I think I'm better than them, or my race is better than them for any reason, that's racism. I have no statistical proof that me, or my race are better people, or entitled to better treatment than anyone else, or any other race.

The term cracker is short for whip-cracker, a term that originated in reference to white slave owners. The fact that Jesse Helms was whistling Dixie to a black lady in an elevator, the fact that he was anti-civil rights and pro segregation is proof enough for me to assume that if it were legal, he would be a slave owner, and therefore allows me the right to call him a cracker.

But you're allowed to think what you want to think, hear what you want to hear and ignore what you want to ignore. After all, it's America.

Read this:

Originally Posted by RendeR

Oh and Draft: The Cracker line? that just destroyed any possible merit your entire post might have held. Totally blew your position by tossing that out there. You're no better than Helms.

Draft, you are no different than someone who would walk around calling someone a nigger. Maybe you should get off of your soapbox and take a long hard look in the mirror if you think calling anyone a racist term is right, regardless of who they are.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by illinifan999

Read this:



Draft, you are no different than someone who would walk around calling someone a nigger. Maybe you should get off of your soapbox and take a long hard look in the mirror if you think calling anyone a racist is right, regardless of who they are.

Bullshit. If someone is a racist it's not wrong to call them on it. Racist is a choice, not a protected class pal and if someone makes that choice I'll be damned if I'm going to think it's wrong to call them on it. Your point is insane.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Axxon

Bullshit. If someone is a racist it's not wrong to call them on it. Racist is a choice, not a protected class pal and if someone makes that choice I'll be damned if I'm going to think it's wrong to call them on it. Your point is insane.

I don't think he called him a racist. He called him a Cracker. I see the difference in those two as well as the irony in the assignation.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

I don't think he called him a racist. He called him a Cracker. I see the difference in those two as well as the irony in the assignation.

Oh I agree with that and calling someone a cracker is racist but the post I quoted clearly addressed calling someone a racist, not a cracker and until this is cleared up I'll stand by my statement that the post as written was insane.

[illinifan999]

Originally Posted by Axxon

Bullshit. If someone is a racist it's not wrong to call them on it. Racist is a choice, not a protected class pal and if someone makes that choice I'll be damned if I'm going to think it's wrong to call them on it. Your point is insane.

Ok it took me awhile to figure out where you were coming from. I forgot to put the word term after racist so my statement should read:

Draft, you are no different than someone who would walk around calling someone a nigger. Maybe you should get off of your soapbox and take a long hard look in the mirror if you think calling anyone a racist term is right, regardless of who they are.

Sorry for that confusion.

[molson]

This isn't how I would have predicted this thread to go.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by illinifan999

Ok it took me awhile to figure out where you were coming from. I forgot to put the word term after racist so my statement should read:

Draft, you are no different than someone who would walk around calling someone a nigger. Maybe you should get off of your soapbox and take a long hard look in the mirror if you think calling anyone a racist term is right, regardless of who they are.

Sorry for that confusion.

That's ok because I thought and really hoped that's what you meant.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by molson

This isn't how I would have predicted this thread to go.

Sorry to dissapoint.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Sorry to dissapoint.

Nah, this is actually more reasonable and civil than I expected it to go.

[RendeR]

Thats sorta what I meant

[Zelig]

I have been away for a few days. Is he still dead?

[Vegas Vic]

My earliest and most vivid memory of Helms was his bitter 1984 campaign against Democratic Governor Jim Hunt. Twenty-four years later, this contest remains the most expensive U.S. Senate race in history. The television ads during that campaign made the Swift Boat ads look warm and fuzzy by comparison.

Governor Hunt had a huge albatross around his neck with the Walter Mondale/Geraldine Ferraro Democratic Presidential ticket, while Helms enjoyed some nice coattails with Ronald Reagan’s (525-13) electoral college landslide. Reagan carried North Carolina by 24 points, but Helms barely eked out 51.7% of the vote, and I honestly believe that if the Democrats had a stronger presidential ticket that year (e.g. Clinton/Gore), then Hunt would have beaten Helms.

[Groundhog]

Christopher Hitchens offers a heartfelt eulogy:

http://www.slate.com/id/2194921/

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

My earliest and most vivid memory of Helms was his bitter 1984 campaign against Democratic Governor Jim Hunt. Twenty-four years later, this contest remains the most expensive U.S. Senate race in history. The television ads during that campaign made the Swift Boat ads look warm and fuzzy by comparison.

Governor Hunt had a huge albatross around his neck with the Walter Mondale/Geraldine Ferraro Democratic Presidential ticket, while Helms enjoyed some nice coattails with Ronald Reagan’s (525-13) electoral college landslide. Reagan carried North Carolina by 24 points, but Helms barely eked out 51.7% of the vote, and I honestly believe that if the Democrats had a stronger presidential ticket that year (e.g. Clinton/Gore), then Hunt would have beaten Helms.

I have a question. Not on the posted topic really...but why are the Swift Boat ads always called out as inappropriate. I think the Moveon "National Guard" ads were just as big a problem.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

My earliest and most vivid memory of Helms was his bitter 1984 campaign against Democratic Governor Jim Hunt. Twenty-four years later, this contest remains the most expensive U.S. Senate race in history. The television ads during that campaign made the Swift Boat ads look warm and fuzzy by comparison.

I remembered that, as I was in Chapel Hill at the time. Don't recall voting for any of the two for Senator, nor President.

[Crapshoot]

Helms can rot in hell. A bastard and a bigot.

[Crapshoot]

Dola,
The more praise Helms gets from the nutjob right (a point Ross Douhat made well), the more one comes to believe that the code words were just that - this was a man who called UNC the University of Niggers and Communists, who help up an appointment because the - an old dixiecrat, who should gone to hell with the Confederacy.

[DrAFTjunkie]

Originally Posted by illinifan999

Ok it took me awhile to figure out where you were coming from. I forgot to put the word term after racist so my statement should read:

Draft, you are no different than someone who would walk around calling someone a nigger. Maybe you should get off of your soapbox and take a long hard look in the mirror if you think calling anyone a racist term is right, regardless of who they are.

Sorry for that confusion.

I'm actually glad that you're sort of sticking to your guns here, 999. Regardless of the fact that I completely disagree with your opinion, it was people with steadfast beliefs that founded this country. I've changed my mind (thankyou illini 999) and I now believe that Jesse Helms' refusal to buckle was...shit, I'll give him "brave." No way was he "noble" but I'll give him "brave." And before you try and use it to try and discredit absolutely everythingI'm saying with an exploitable remark, I'm well aware that some of the founding fathers were avid racists. Most were not. Moving on...

I'm sticking to my guns on this one too.

Firstly man, you really don't need to clarify yourself and insert the word "term" after the word racist. I'll just come right out and call Jesse Helms a racist for you. Jesse Helms was a racist. I'll even admit to being very similar to someone who walks around calling black people "niggers". It's a similar action from a similar mindset. It's hatred. I, personally don't even think there's anything wrong with hatred unto itself, though. As Henry Rollins once said: "I hate...a lot." But to me, the wrong and right of hatred comes down to what you choose to hate and why you choose to hate it. In my eyes, it's not wrong to hate a person for being a racist. That's my opinion. In my eyes, it is wrong to hate a person based on the sole principal that he belongs to an inferior race. I don't think there is an inerior race. I don't think you can judge a person by his, or her race. From the fact-based information, it's pretty much a given (in my mind) that Jesse Helms was a racist. I hate him for it and I have no problem hating him for it.

I find it unfortunate that you seem to be completely igonoring most of what I'm writing here--entire posts at that. I think you're focusing only on the, in your eyes, indescrpencies of some of the things I'm saying, to create your entire rubuttals. It seems that you're trying to discredit me personally to "win" an argument, and I don't think arguments should be had with a win or lose mentality. If you win an argument, what do you actually win? IMHO, arguments are all about stating opinions, throwing out the odd fact here and there to back them up and asking questions with an end goal of coming closer to, or reaching a truth. I clicked on a Jesse Helms thread, saw that he wasn't being being unanimously vilified, became enraged and threw my hat in the ring about something that was bound to become an argument anyway. I've stated my opinions, backed them up with either facts or life experiences, and asked questions. You've stated opinions, backed none of them up, asked no questions, nor answered any of mine. The only thing you have done here, is tell me what kind of person I am without even knowing me.

[chesapeake]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

I may be missing something where Helms publicly clung to his racist ideology even in the last days of his tenure in the Senate. I would paint he and Byrd with essentially the same brush with respect to their positions on race and racism.

I'm also reading your account of the Mosely Braun incident above as your extrapolation of the events rather than Helms' actual position. If he was really incensed that a black woman's presence in the Senate, then he deserves even less credit than I give him. I'm reading those events as if he was incensed that a peer of his chose to play victim of racism card rather than deal with the issue through directly confronting him.

Helms publicly clung to his racist beliefs throughout his entire time in the Senate. He wasn't shy about it. He was always cloaked in his own sense of righteousness. His campaign for a a fifth term in 1996 was nasty and contained similar public appeals to bigots as the famous ad from the 1990 campaign.

I defy you to find any public statement Helms made recognizing that anything he said or did was racist. I know you can't find an apology to that effect, because there never was one.

Painting Byrd and Helms with the same brush is ludicrous. Byrd recanted his KKK membership and opposition to the civil rights movement 40 years ago. His voting record, public works and statements since the 1960s clearly show that this repudiation was genuine. Byrd showed that people can learn from their mistakes and make real change.

From an obit appearing in The Nation:

"Despite the best efforts of the senator and his spin doctors to rehabilitate the old man by hiring a few conservative staffers who happened to be people of color or by posing him for pictures with U2's Bono, Helms finished his career without the apologies that came from George Wallace, Orval Faubus and his fellow segregationists.
Even Strom Thurmond admitted his defenses of segregation were wrong, but not Helms. Nor did the North Carolinian ever make serious efforts to appeal to African-American voters -- as Wallace, Thurmond and "Jim Crow" politicians began to do late in their careers.
"He was sort of unrepentant until the end," said Duke's Kerry Haynie."

[illinifan999]

Originally Posted by DrAFTjunkie

I'm actually glad that you're sort of sticking to your guns here, 999. Regardless of the fact that I completely disagree with your opinion, it was people with steadfast beliefs that founded this country. I've changed my mind (thankyou illini 999) and I now believe that Jesse Helms' refusal to buckle was...shit, I'll give him "brave." No way was he "noble" but I'll give him "brave." And before you try and use it to try and discredit absolutely everythingI'm saying with an exploitable remark, I'm well aware that some of the founding fathers were avid racists. Most were not. Moving on...

I'm sticking to my guns on this one too.

Firstly man, you really don't need to clarify yourself and insert the word "term" after the word racist. I'll just come right out and call Jesse Helms a racist for you. Jesse Helms was a racist. I'll even admit to being very similar to someone who walks around calling black people "niggers". It's a similar action from a similar mindset. It's hatred. I, personally don't even think there's anything wrong with hatred unto itself, though. As Henry Rollins once said: "I hate...a lot." But to me, the wrong and right of hatred comes down to what you choose to hate and why you choose to hate it. In my eyes, it's not wrong to hate a person for being a racist. That's my opinion. In my eyes, it is wrong to hate a person based on the sole principal that he belongs to an inferior race. I don't think there is an inerior race. I don't think you can judge a person by his, or her race. From the fact-based information, it's pretty much a given (in my mind) that Jesse Helms was a racist. I hate him for it and I have no problem hating him for it.

I find it unfortunate that you seem to be completely igonoring most of what I'm writing here--entire posts at that. I think you're focusing only on the, in your eyes, indescrpencies of some of the things I'm saying, to create your entire rubuttals. It seems that you're trying to discredit me personally to "win" an argument, and I don't think arguments should be had with a win or lose mentality. If you win an argument, what do you actually win? IMHO, arguments are all about stating opinions, throwing out the odd fact here and there to back them up and asking questions with an end goal of coming closer to, or reaching a truth. I clicked on a Jesse Helms thread, saw that he wasn't being being unanimously vilified, became enraged and threw my hat in the ring about something that was bound to become an argument anyway. I've stated my opinions, backed them up with either facts or life experiences, and asked questions. You've stated opinions, backed none of them up, asked no questions, nor answered any of mine. The only thing you have done here, is tell me what kind of person I am without even knowing me.

I'm not trying to win any argument. To be honest, I had never heard of this guy until this thread and he sounds like a complete douchebag. I don't really think it was commendable of him to stick to his guns considering he was a racist. I don't really know what opinion of mine you're disagreeing with considering my only point was that you typed up a novel saying how wrong racism is, and then you went and used a racial slur which is wrong, and I'm sure if you called a black person a nigger on this board you would be boxed.

[Zelig]

still dead?

[DrAFTjunkie]

Originally Posted by illinifan999

I'm not trying to win any argument. To be honest, I had never heard of this guy until this thread and he sounds like a complete douchebag. I don't really think it was commendable of him to stick to his guns considering he was a racist. I don't really know what opinion of mine you're disagreeing with considering my only point was that you typed up a novel saying how wrong racism is, and then you went and used a racial slur which is wrong, and I'm sure if you called a black person a nigger on this board you would be boxed.

What I typed up was hardly a novel. Y'know, god forbid that somebody has something to say that can't be summed up in a few sentences.

I disagree with your opinion that the words cracker and nigger are equally offensive in this particular case, and in general for that matter. The word cracker, as I stated earlier is a shortened version of the term whip-cracker, which was originally used to describe white slave owners and is now commonly used to disparage white racists. It's a very specific word that I used to describe one specific man that in my eyes, was inarguably a racist. But I think we can all agree that the proof that Jesse Helms was a racist is overwhelming. I don't think that anyone can logically argue that he wasn't. I didn't use the word cracker to describe him without knowing the facts about him. If I were to call you a cracker without knowing anything about you, then sure...tear me the fuck apart because I'd deserve it.

When Jesse Helms used the word "niggers" in his summation of UNC (university of niggers and commies) he was essentially saying that all of the black students in attendence were contemptible, igonorant and inferior without (I assume) knowing any of them, or anything about them. Based soley on the color of their skin, they were niggers and henceforth, contemptible, ignorant and inferior. This is wrong. Making such a powerfully negative connotation about a large group of people based only on the color of their skin is wrong. And the worst part about it for me, is that he was saying this about college students when he himself was a college dropout. Jesse Helms was a cracker and a bit of a hypocite too, maybe.

To me, the two words are apples and oranges anyway. Cracker implies racist beliefs based on the assumption that there actually is a superior race, whereas nigger implies an inherent inferiority based on race and race alone. You can prove that someone has racist beliefs (it helps when they spout them so freely), but you cannot prove, in my opinion, that any race is inferior to any other race. I won't say that the word cracker isn't thrown around improperly and ignorantly sometimes, but I don't think using that word to decribe a racist douchenozzle like Jesse Helms was improper or ignorant.

Whaddya think?

[Groundhog]

Well, now I know where the term cracker came from!

[Subby]

Originally Posted by DrAFTjunkie

but you cannot prove, in my opinion, that any race is inferior to any other race.

Pygmies.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by DrAFTjunkie

What I typed up was hardly a novel. Y'know, god forbid that somebody has something to say that can't be summed up in a few sentences.

I disagree with your opinion that the words cracker and nigger are equally offensive in this particular case, and in general for that matter. The word cracker, as I stated earlier is a shortened version of the term whip-cracker, which was originally used to describe white slave owners and is now commonly used to disparage white racists. It's a very specific word that I used to describe one specific man that in my eyes, was inarguably a racist. But I think we can all agree that the proof that Jesse Helms was a racist is overwhelming. I don't think that anyone can logically argue that he wasn't. I didn't use the word cracker to describe him without knowing the facts about him. If I were to call you a cracker without knowing anything about you, then sure...tear me the fuck apart because I'd deserve it.

When Jesse Helms used the word "niggers" in his summation of UNC (university of niggers and commies) he was essentially saying that all of the black students in attendence were contemptible, igonorant and inferior without (I assume) knowing any of them, or anything about them. Based soley on the color of their skin, they were niggers and henceforth, contemptible, ignorant and inferior. This is wrong. Making such a powerfully negative connotation about a large group of people based only on the color of their skin is wrong. And the worst part about it for me, is that he was saying this about college students when he himself was a college dropout. Jesse Helms was a cracker and a bit of a hypocite too, maybe.

To me, the two words are apples and oranges anyway. Cracker implies racist beliefs based on the assumption that there actually is a superior race, whereas nigger implies an inherent inferiority based on race and race alone. You can prove that someone has racist beliefs (it helps when they spout them so freely), but you cannot prove, in my opinion, that any race is inferior to any other race. I won't say that the word cracker isn't thrown around improperly and ignorantly sometimes, but I don't think using that word to decribe a racist douchenozzle like Jesse Helms was improper or ignorant.

Whaddya think?

While I agree with this post, what I think you are missing is while calling Helms a cracker may be correct it will not draw ire or retribution, however calling Al Sharpton a Nigger (which I submit is also neither incorrect nor inappropriate) would certainly lead to repercussions

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

While I agree with this post, what I think you are missing is while calling Helms a cracker may be correct it will not draw ire or retribution, however calling Al Sharpton a Nigger (which I submit is also neither incorrect nor inappropriate) would certainly lead to repercussions

Wow. I'm ... speechless.

[oliegirl]

[KWhit]

See you, CU.

[illinifan999]

Originally Posted by DrAFTjunkie

What I typed up was hardly a novel. Y'know, god forbid that somebody has something to say that can't be summed up in a few sentences.

I disagree with your opinion that the words cracker and nigger are equally offensive in this particular case, and in general for that matter. The word cracker, as I stated earlier is a shortened version of the term whip-cracker, which was originally used to describe white slave owners and is now commonly used to disparage white racists. It's a very specific word that I used to describe one specific man that in my eyes, was inarguably a racist. But I think we can all agree that the proof that Jesse Helms was a racist is overwhelming. I don't think that anyone can logically argue that he wasn't. I didn't use the word cracker to describe him without knowing the facts about him. If I were to call you a cracker without knowing anything about you, then sure...tear me the fuck apart because I'd deserve it.

When Jesse Helms used the word "niggers" in his summation of UNC (university of niggers and commies) he was essentially saying that all of the black students in attendence were contemptible, igonorant and inferior without (I assume) knowing any of them, or anything about them. Based soley on the color of their skin, they were niggers and henceforth, contemptible, ignorant and inferior. This is wrong. Making such a powerfully negative connotation about a large group of people based only on the color of their skin is wrong. And the worst part about it for me, is that he was saying this about college students when he himself was a college dropout. Jesse Helms was a cracker and a bit of a hypocite too, maybe.

To me, the two words are apples and oranges anyway. Cracker implies racist beliefs based on the assumption that there actually is a superior race, whereas nigger implies an inherent inferiority based on race and race alone. You can prove that someone has racist beliefs (it helps when they spout them so freely), but you cannot prove, in my opinion, that any race is inferior to any other race. I won't say that the word cracker isn't thrown around improperly and ignorantly sometimes, but I don't think using that word to decribe a racist douchenozzle like Jesse Helms was improper or ignorant.

Whaddya think?

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. In my opinion, using a racial slur against anyone is wrong regardless of who they are.

[RendeR]

*sigh* people don't seem to understand that there is no way to rationalize making an ignorant racist statement.

Cracker
WoP
Nigger
Spic

Its all the same, its one color looking at another color and calling them somthing derogetory because of NOTHING MORE THAN COLOR.

Keep defending it all you want, there is absolutely NO good reason to call ANYONE ANY of those names.

If you do you're no better than Helms. Period.

[I. J. Reilly]

I have nothing to say about Helms specifically, he’s been irrelevant for a long time and rightfully so.

But what a sad commentary on today’s GOP this has been. When the “leading voices of the party” are unanimous in their praise for Helms, to the point of completely ignoring every negative about him, it tells you everything you need to know. A reflexive defense of “one of ours”, is that what passes as the party of ideas now? I feel bad for John McCain; he deserves better than being forced to drag this decaying elephant corpse of a party through the general election.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by I. J. Reilly

I have nothing to say about Helms specifically, he’s been irrelevant for a long time and rightfully so.

But what a sad commentary on today’s GOP this has been. When the “leading voices of the party” are unanimous in their praise for Helms, to the point of completely ignoring every negative about him, it tells you everything you need to know. A reflexive defense of “one of ours”, is that what passes as the party of ideas now? I feel bad for John McCain; he deserves better than being forced to drag this decaying elephant corpse of a party through the general election.

+1

[DrAFTjunkie]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

While I agree with this post, what I think you are missing is while calling Helms a cracker may be correct it will not draw ire or retribution, however calling Al Sharpton a Nigger (which I submit is also neither incorrect nor inappropriate) would certainly lead to repercussions

Let me simplify this even more:

The word cracker implies a racially superior attitude.

The word nigger implies that somebody is ingnorant, contemptible and racially inferior.

Jesse Helms= cracker because he had a racially superior attitude. Maybe I took the low road in calling him that, but I'll stand by it.

Al Sharpeton= nigger because he belongs to an inferior race? I'll give you ignorant and sometimes contemptible, but inferior based on the color of his skin? That's, IMHO, taking the no road, man. Do you stand by that?

Truthfully, despite my anger towards CU's post, I'd be really PO'ed if he gets banned. These are all just opinions and words. And it's not like people are throwing around dirty words in a thread about pro wresting, or gaming. This was a thread that was (I think) to discuss Jesse Helms. How can you not start talking about race and dirty words in such a thread?

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by DrAFTjunkie

Let me simplify this even more:

The word cracker implies a racially superior attitude.

The word nigger implies that somebody is ingnorant, contemptible and racially inferior.

Jesse Helms= cracker because he had a racially superior attitude. Maybe I took the low road in calling him that, but I'll stand by it.

Al Sharpeton= nigger because he belongs to an inferior race? I'll give you ignorant and sometimes contemptible, but inferior based on the color of his skin? That's, IMHO, taking the no road, man. Do you stand by that?

Truthfully, despite my anger towards CU's post, I'd be really PO'ed if he gets banned. These are all just opinions and words. And it's not like people are throwing around dirty words in a thread about pro wresting, or gaming. This was a thread that was (I think) to discuss Jesse Helms. How can you not start talking about race and dirty words in such a thread?

your definitions appear to be just as racially biased as your attitude. Cracker and nigger are the same thing, just different directions of use. If you don't believe that then you're just rationalizing to make yourself feel better.

[illinifan999]

The problem is that your defintion is outdated. Today, cracker is a slur used to describe someone who is white. I would say there is a very small number of people who use the word cracker to imply someone has a racially superior attitude. It's a slur, just like nigger, spic, wop, chink, etc.

[larrymcg421]

I would say cracker has more of a regional connotation, though. I've only heard it used against southern whites. That certainly doesn't defend it's use, but I think it's a bit different than the other word.