Pats tell Deion Branch to s*ck it.

[Phoenix]

It's just business - did I stutter?

[Phoenix]

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...lr%3D%26sa%3DG

forgot this

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

It's just business - did I stutter?

you didn't stutter. but you spell like an 8 year old, have about as much content in your posts as there is snow in hell, and you seem to have an unhealthy attraction to men who play quarterback. other than that and the fact that you've started a ton of useless threads tonight, you're doing great.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

you didn't stutter. but you spell like an 8 year old, have about as much content in your posts as there is snow in hell, and you seem to have an unhealthy attraction to men who play quarterback. other than that and the fact that you've started a ton of useless threads tonight, you're doing great.

actually I have quite a command of the English language, I just wanted to see whether or not someone misspelling a bunch of words would aggravate you - I guess it really does - please be more tolerant of others who might not be as gifted as you and you'll be much more content with your own life

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

TroyF nailed it. I have no idea what's going on with Belichick these days.

Keeping the franchise successful for the next 5 years.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

And here's some comments from Branch just this year about his difficulty with double coverage. This coming from a guy who wants serious #1 money.

http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/patriots/?m=20060407

I believe the Chargers pass defense was rated 30th last season and 31st the season before.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

actually I have quite a command of the English language, I just wanted to see whether or not someone misspelling a bunch of words would aggravate you - I guess it really does - please be more tolerant of others who might not be as gifted as you and you'll be much more content with your own life

Jeez, for me that's waaay more tolerance than one man can bear.

[Stevebsfan]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Pats offered Branch 6.5 a year to extend his contract 3 years and a host of it guranteed. I'll never say he isn't a good player but I would never say they should pony up any more or can't produce great offense without him.

According to the espn.com article, there were reports they offered a 3 year deal for $18.75m ($8m guaranteed), and a 5 year extension worth $31m with $11m in bonuses. That's a nice chunk of change, if they really offered that, i'll be shocked if he finds better over the next week, especially from a team with a real chance at winning.

[Stevebsfan]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

TroyF nailed it. I have no idea what's going on with Belichick these days.

I think he's trying to send a message so this doesn't become a yearly thing. They caved to Seymour and guaranteed some of his contract with his holdout, but Branch is no Seymour and I think that's the message he's sending. I think it probably killed him to deal with Seymour before he wanted, and he's not about to let the team start holding out at will to get contract demands.

Seymour last year, Branch this year, who's next? Eugene Wilson? Asante Samuel? I don't think Harrison is thrilled with his contract, but he's sucking it up and playing for the deal he signed. As soon as BB starts caving to guys like Branch, I think it will set off a chain reaction.

As much as I love Branch, he's not on the level of a Seymour, Brady, etc.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

actually I have quite a command of the English language, I just wanted to see whether or not someone misspelling a bunch of words would aggravate you - I guess it really does - please be more tolerant of others who might not be as gifted as you and you'll be much more content with your own life

very content, thanks. I interact with people constantly who are less gifted. most of them don't deliberately act like a dumbass though.

[Phoenix]

ok deal - I won't act like a dumbass any more

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Vinatieri for Prez

Keeping the franchise successful for the next 5 years.

I agree - that's why the Pats are never in salary cap hell and always a contender - they've got it figured out

[jeff061]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

I agree - that's why the Pats are never in salary cap hell and always a contender - they've got it figured out

But my question is why are they 10 mil under the cap with the season about the start, after failing to land Ty Law like they damn well should have.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Because 1) they need the money for Branch, Samuel, Koppen, Graham, etc. to resign this year before hitting FA next year; (2) if they don't sign them all, they can pay some future bonus money this year to players already under longer contracts to lessen the cap problem in future years (they will probably do this with some of Seymour's money).

We must think long term here.

[RainMaker]

I actually think it's a fantastic move by the Pats. First, what the Pats are offering him is very fair for a player of his ability and stature. He isn't an elite receiver in my mind and I think the Pats are paying him just under elite receiver money. Letting him test the market will show him quickly that his value is right around what the Pats are offering him.

He may come across a team desperate for a receiver like the Eagles who will give him more money. However, I can't fathom the Pats not asking for a #1 or #2 for Branch which can be seen as steep (especially when you're going to pay the guy 7 million).

I think Branch should take his offer from the Pats and shut up. He's playing for a fantastic organization with the best coach in football. He has arguably the best QB in the league throwing to him and would be their featured receiver for years to come. To throw that away for a couple million just seems silly I guess.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Vinatieri for Prez

And here's some comments from Branch just this year about his difficulty with double coverage. This coming from a guy who wants serious #1 money.

http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/patriots/?m=20060407

I believe the Chargers pass defense was rated 30th last season and 31st the season before.

What I'm reading there is that the Chargers put three men on Branch and yet NE wasn't able to adjust and was shellacked. If three of the 8 defenders of the worst pass defense in the NFL are covering one man, there should have been ample chances for other guys to make plays. Instead, Patrick Pass had 8 catches, and the Pats were shut down cold.

I don't think it was anything to get worried about, I attribute that horrific performence to a beat up defense and them getting used to making adjustments without Weiss.

As for Branch, you don't get good facing double teams the first year you're faced with it. (unless you are a Randy Moss or T.O.) It takes time. Wayne keeps getting brought up in this thread. Wayne has the same things going for him Branch has, outside of the fact he has a hall of fame WR on the other side of the field.

It wasn't until this past season defenses focused on Wayne more than Harrison. Look at the numbers and compare them to Branch. Not a lot different. Branch had a higher DVOA and a higher DPAR. (if you aren't familiar with the footballoutsiders, their website will explain what those stats mean) He was better against #1 CB's than Wayne was and he was more effecive on third down.

Lets just see what happens. I don't think Branch will be there for game one. I'm interested to see just how NE does. I don't care if you're Montana, Brady or Johnny Unitas, I think you need quality WR to throw the ball to. NE may be fine for most of the season without Branch. But I think they are going to feel his loss (should he not come back) against the upper tier teams.

I sure wish he was on the Broncos roster to replace Smith when he retires soon.

[SirFozzie]

The Pats are doing rather well without him so far.

[jeff061]

Originally Posted by Vinatieri for Prez

Because 1) they need the money for Branch, Samuel, Koppen, Graham, etc. to resign this year before hitting FA next year; (2) if they don't sign them all, they can pay some future bonus money this year to players already under longer contracts to lessen the cap problem in future years (they will probably do this with some of Seymour's money).

We must think long term here.

I'll believe it when I see it, other than Branch, that's the first I've heard of any of that. I think they'll let most or all hit free agency. Which I don't have a problem with. They need an anchor in the secondary, this "for the future" crap is bull.

[Galaril]

Wow 41-0! I the coach was sending amessage to Branch and the fans that they can score without Deion.

[k0ruptr]

WOW OMG you are so right,Deion is nothing and this preseason is awesome!!!

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by k0ruptr

WOW OMG you are so right,Deion is nothing and this preseason is awesome!!!

I am not a Pats fan (Titans actually) I was just giving an opinion as to the way it looks. IMHO. I mean everyone knows it is preseason but, if you lived here you would know that the local media especially sports radio on WEEI has been rehashing and second guessing both sides of this holdout. And people have this week started to say the Patriots were planning using Ben Waton like the the KC Chiefs have used Tony Gonzalez as the primary reciever. The guys had a big game last night and got a lot of looks.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Galaril

Wow 41-0! I the coach was sending amessage to Branch and the fans that they can score without Deion.

Pats tell Deion Branch to suck it....again.


As a sidenote, Reche Caldwell looked about as bad as you can look out there. It was a "he should be cut" type of performance. Irrelavent to the Branch stuff though. 89 year Troy Brown who runs a 5.3 now seems to be able to get open.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

very content, thanks. I interact with people constantly who are less gifted. most of them don't deliberately act like a dumbass though.

Really, I don't think Fite would appreciate that characterization.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Pats tell Deion Branch to suck it....again.


As a sidenote, Reche Caldwell looked about as bad as you can look out there. It was a "he should be cut" type of performance. Irrelavent to the Branch stuff though. 89 year Troy Brown who runs a 5.3 now seems to be able to get open.

I just wish Rich Musinski would have been given some time in such a blowout .

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by wade moore

I just wish Rich Musinski would have been given some time in such a blowout .

William & Mary gets no respect.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

William & Mary gets no respect.

w0rd. Although we have the most guys I think, well, ever on pre-season rosters right now - 7. That's with 2 veterans that have been on NFL rosters for multiple seasons (Darren Sharper and Mike Leach) and then 5 guys on the bubble which it's looking more and more like we'll be lucky to have 1 make an NFL roster and 2 or 3 have a shot at Practice Squad spots.

*sigh*... I often wonder if I'm more biased in thinking they should get more of a shot or if NFL coaches/GMs are more biased in disregarding performance at the I-AA level.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by wade moore

w0rd. Although we have the most guys I think, well, ever on pre-season rosters right now - 7. That's with 2 veterans that have been on NFL rosters for multiple seasons (Darren Sharper and Mike Leach) and then 5 guys on the bubble which it's looking more and more like we'll be lucky to have 1 make an NFL roster and 2 or 3 have a shot at Practice Squad spots.

*sigh*... I often wonder if I'm more biased in thinking they should get more of a shot or if NFL coaches/GMs are more biased in disregarding performance at the I-AA level.

I highly doubt there is a bias. I would imagine most nfl gms and coaches want to win and will pick the guys that give them the best chance.

Musinski might make the practice squad. Does he play special teams? That would help.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

I highly doubt there is a bias. I would imagine most nfl gms and coaches want to win and will pick the guys that give them the best chance.

Musinski might make the practice squad. Does he play special teams? That would help.

He was a punt returner in college, but admittedly not that great...

I would have thought his play in NFLE would have helped, but I guess not.

When I really analyze it objectively, I think he's too small/slow for the NFL to really make a ton of use out of him. He runs GREAT routes, has great hands, and has pretty good accelaration - but he has low top-speed for the NFL and is only 5'11", 200 lbs.

[Desnudo]

How far below the cap are the Pats right now? Branch may not be worth Reggie Wayne money, the Colts are going to be playing with two receivers, a QB, and no one else in a few years, but surely there's a middle ground somewhere.

You have to look at his relative value to what's available on the market. He's clearly better than anyone sitting on a couch right now. Although maybe TO will be exiting the Cowboys soon.

Edit: isn't franchising him an option? I don't think they've used that slot this year.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

How far below the cap are the Pats right now? Branch may not be worth Reggie Wayne money, the Colts are going to be playing with two receivers, a QB, and no one else in a few years, but surely there's a middle ground somewhere.

You have to look at his relative value to what's available on the market. He's clearly better than anyone sitting on a couch right now. Although maybe TO will be exiting the Cowboys soon.

Edit: isn't franchising him an option? I don't think they've used that slot this year.

Pats offered him the middle ground. They are under the cap but as someone pointed out they have other players to extend or resign. Also, I'll bet that they will end up right around the cap by the final roster anyway.

The time for franchising has passed for this season but that's certainly an option for 2007. At least an option to use as leverage in this case.

I think I heard the Eagles already on record as saying they think he's good but not worth Wayne money. Welcome back to Foxboro, Deion!

[Ksyrup]

Realistically speaking, how many teams have so much room under their cap that they could give him what they might otherwise have wanted to if he had been an unrestricted free agent in March? Doesn't that negate much of what the Pats are attempting to prove? All they're telling him is, "With less than 2 weeks until the season starts, this is as good a deal as you're going to get. This is your market value as of today." That might very well be true, but I think he was looking at the bigger picture of his worth on the market in general. It seems to me that if he decided to hold out, he was already aware that his market would be less now than it would have been over the summer.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Realistically speaking, how many teams have so much room under their cap that they could give him what they might otherwise have wanted to if he had been an unrestricted free agent in March? Doesn't that negate much of what the Pats are attempting to prove? All they're telling him is, "With less than 2 weeks until the season starts, this is as good a deal as you're going to get. This is your market value as of today." That might very well be true, but I think he was looking at the bigger picture of his worth on the market in general. It seems to me that if he decided to hold out, he was already aware that his market would be less now than it would have been over the summer.

Kind of like when the Red Sox put Manny on waivers. A bit of a public f-you.

[Ksyrup]

But it doesn't really answer his claim that he's worth Wayne money, which is what they have said. Telling him he can test his market value at this point as if that will make him think teams wouldn't give him Wayne money, when the truth is they couldn't even if they wanted to, doesn't really seem to make sense. I understand what they're doing in a way, but in the bigger picture, if I was Branch, I'd see it as comparing apples to oranges.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

But it doesn't really answer his claim that he's worth Wayne money, which is what they have said. Telling him he can test his market value at this point as if that will make him think teams wouldn't give him Wayne money, when the truth is they couldn't even if they wanted to, doesn't really seem to make sense. I understand what they're doing in a way, but in the bigger picture, if I was Branch, I'd see it as comparing apples to oranges.

OK, if that's the case then how would he expect NE to come up with this money now then?

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Galaril

I am not a Pats fan (Titans actually) I was just giving an opinion as to the way it looks. IMHO. I mean everyone knows it is preseason but, if you lived here you would know that the local media especially sports radio on WEEI has been rehashing and second guessing both sides of this holdout. And people have this week started to say the Patriots were planning using Ben Waton like the the KC Chiefs have used Tony Gonzalez as the primary reciever. The guys had a big game last night and got a lot of looks.

With their WR core as horrific as it currently is, that's their only option. They are going to have to go the route of the KC Chiefs offense. Run the ball a lot with Dillon and Maroney, and feature Watson as the #1 receiver.

With Brady being the machine that he is, that'll be more than enough to get them in the playoffs and they'll still hammer poor teams. (because their D is 200x that of the Chiefs defenses in Tony G's dominant years) But against good teams, that strategy backfires. Not having a solid WR to help stretch the D kills you. Terrific scheming and a terrific QB can only go so far, you have to have weapons on the outside who can make some plays against upper tier teams.

What I think everyone is missing here is this: Lets all agree that Branch is a #2 WR (even if I disagree massively with that take, I think he can be a solid #1) OK, so we agree he's a #2 WR, and clearly one of the top #2's in the entire league. With him gone, what to the Pats have now?

Brown is a solid #3 at his age. An increased workload will most certainly see him on the injured list sooner than later. Who else even approaches the level of a #3 WR now? I'm not sure that any Patriots wideout save Chad Jackson (because he's a young, highly touted rookie) and Brown would be picked up were they to get released. They are simply horrible.

I'm just taking the money out of it. I understand what those of you who don't want to overpay for Branch are saying. (again, I don't agree with it, but I see the point) But I also look at a major weakness on a team that usually doens't have a lot. I think their lack of WR will kill them against upper level competition.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

OK, if that's the case then how would he expect NE to come up with this money now then?

My guess is his feeling is - that's their problem. They had the chance back before they ran out of cap room to accommodate what he wanted.

I'm not saying he's worth it, but that's got to be his position.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

My guess is his feeling is - that's their problem. They had the chance back before they ran out of cap room to accommodate what he wanted.

I'm not saying he's worth it, but that's got to be his position.

So in his mind as of right now no team including the Pats can afford him so he's going to sit out for no reason since there is no possible win monetarily for him. Forget 3 years 18 million. That's chump change.

This way he can avoid injury, return to the team by week 11 and then remain inactive for the remainder of the year. That way he'll be in a great position during the 2007 offseason to score that elusive big contract.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

So in his mind as of right now no team including the Pats can afford him so he's going to sit out for no reason since there is no possible win monetarily for him. Forget 3 years 18 million. That's chump change.

This way he can avoid injury, return to the team by week 11 and then remain inactive for the remainder of the year. That way he'll be in a great position during the 2007 offseason to score that elusive big contract.

That's exactly what he's saying.

You keep putting your perspective on it. Fine. He thinks he's worth more than that 3 year 18 million dollar offer. (I think he's worth more as well, but again, that doesn't matter)

The Patriots are playing thier cards with the big FU to him. That's their right. His right is to do what you just suggested. Hold out, pout, come in for the final 6 games so he gets his service time and then test his value next year. It's two sides playing what cards they have.

I side with the player here. . . you side with the franchise. . . we'll all see his relative value to the team the longer his absence continues.

[Ksyrup]

Peter King answered one of my questions:


Here are the teams, with cap money available as of the close of NFL business on Friday, that would think of making a play for Branch:

• Minnesota ($10.4 million under the cap): After losing Koren Robinson, this is a team with a good veteran quarterback, Brad Johnson, and no reliable wideout. I doubt Minnesota will do something as bold as paying Branch and surrendering a first-round pick, but you just don't know how desperate owner Zygi Wilf is feeling after the Robinson embarrassment.

• Buffalo ($8.8 million under): The Pats aren't afraid to deal within the division, as they showed with Drew Bledsoe. But maybe the bomb Peerless Price caught from J.P. Losman the other night will make Marv Levy think he can get by with Lee Evans and flotsam at wideout.

• Green Bay ($8.3 million under): Talk about a perfect replacement for Javon Walker, who has yet to be replaced in the north country.

• Kansas City ($12 million under): Herman Edwards saw him twice a year for the last four years, and his starters now are the aging Eddie Kennison and Samie Parker. That's a lot of money to be burning a hole in Carl Peterson's pocket.

• New York Jets ($7.0 million under): They've taken everything else that wasn't nailed down in Foxboro. Why not Brady's favorite receiver?

• Seattle ($10.0 million under): If I were Mike Holmgren, I'd do it. Darrell Jackson gets hurt every 10 minutes, and you know you're picking near the end of the first round almost no matter what happens in January. Take the shot. Trade the first-round pick and sign Branch long-term.

• San Francisco ($10.1 million under): The Niners need players at almost any position.

• Cleveland ($8.5 million under): Romeo Crennel knows Branch and loves him. But he also just bought Joe Jurevicius in free agency, and a threesome of Braylon Edwards, Jurevicius and Dennis Northcutt hardly is a weak position group on a team in need of help elsewhere.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by TroyF

That's exactly what he's saying.

You keep putting your perspective on it. Fine. He thinks he's worth more than that 3 year 18 million dollar offer. (I think he's worth more as well, but again, that doesn't matter)

The Patriots are playing thier cards with the big FU to him. That's their right. His right is to do what you just suggested. Hold out, pout, come in for the final 6 games so he gets his service time and then test his value next year. It's two sides playing what cards they have.

I side with the player here. . . you side with the franchise. . . we'll all see his relative value to the team the longer his absence continues.

I merely suggest his side is stupid in the scenario you describe in that it doesn't help his value.

He bluffed, the Pats called and the smart move is to come in. He has to realize that no matter what the Pats record is they will never, ever cave into what he wants.

Right or wrong that's his reality as I see it.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Two things. As Peter King pointed out, there are plenty of teams with a need for WR and cap room to sign him. So, that shoots the hole in the argument Ksyrup that the strategy is dumb because he won't get any offers anyway because everyone is up against the cap. You also see that NE is not the only team with lots of cap room. Second, his strategy for the big contract next year, after coming in very late won't really work because the Pats hold the franchise tag over his head (although he would cash in on a big 1-year deal but no big bonus).

[Vinatieri for Prez]

I guess what I don't quite understand is a team that won 3 SBs, is still in great cap shape (was able to extend the best QB and D-lineman in the game, has their entire young offensive line - except Koppen -- under contract for many years to come), and has always spent to the cap before gets this much flak from even their own fans.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

I merely suggest his side is stupid in the scenario you describe in that it doesn't help his value.

He bluffed, the Pats called and the smart move is to come in. He has to realize that no matter what the Pats record is they will never, ever cave into what he wants.

Right or wrong that's his reality as I see it.

Thing is, I think he accepts that. I think he realizes that the Patriots aren't caving. And I don't think he has any plans on caving. The Patriots have made their call. It's now up to him. And I think he'll make his call. It'll be the scenario you described above. Come in and play the final 6 and then walk.

None of us will know what it does to his value until he signs his contract next year. If the Pats were to struggle because of WR issues on offense, I'd imagine it'll increase his value. If he shows up wiht 6 weeks to go and the Pats, no matter how good they were to that point, see a noticeable increase in production, that'll also help his value.

The flip sides would hurt it.

I find the whole thing sad myself. He's by far and away the best WR on the Patriots. He's a class citizen and has produced like gangbusters in the clutch. His two Super Bowl performences are right up there with the best two ever in the history of the game. And he's getting better each year. This is the year I figured he'd move into the 90+ catch, 1200+ yard mark and instead he'll likely be sitting on the couch most of the year. That sucks from a fans perspective. Watching Reche Caldwell try to replace him should be good for some laughs though.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Watching Reche Caldwell try to replace him should be good for some laughs though.

Caldwell shouldn't even make the team but he probably will.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Vinatieri for Prez

Two things. As Peter King pointed out, there are plenty of teams with a need for WR and cap room to sign him. So, that shoots the hole in the argument Ksyrup that the strategy is dumb because he won't get any offers anyway because everyone is up against the cap. You also see that NE is not the only team with lots of cap room. Second, his strategy for the big contract next year, after coming in very late won't really work because the Pats hold the franchise tag over his head (although he would cash in on a big 1-year deal but no big bonus).

It was reported on a Philadelphia radio statioin that the Patriots asking price is two first round picks.

Even if we drop it to one first round pick, that smacks me of hypocricy. On one hand they are telling him he's not worth Reggie Wayne money or that of a #1 WR and yet they are asking any team that wants him to pay for it like he is one. I know it's negotiations and all, but if he's really just a glorified #2 WR, why would they be asking for such a ridiculous price?

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Thing is, I think he accepts that. I think he realizes that the Patriots aren't caving. And I don't think he has any plans on caving. The Patriots have made their call. It's now up to him. And I think he'll make his call. It'll be the scenario you described above. Come in and play the final 6 and then walk.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the Pats escalate it if that happens by putting him on some kind of suspended list a couple weeks before, denying him the payoff

[WSUCougar]

TWO 1st round picks?

*spews out clam chowder*

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

TWO 1st round picks?

*spews out clam chowder*

I only heard one. In essence he's already franchised without having to pay him a dime if they are willing to proceed with him on the sidelines.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Originally Posted by TroyF

It was reported on a Philadelphia radio statioin that the Patriots asking price is two first round picks.

Even if we drop it to one first round pick, that smacks me of hypocricy. On one hand they are telling him he's not worth Reggie Wayne money or that of a #1 WR and yet they are asking any team that wants him to pay for it like he is one. I know it's negotiations and all, but if he's really just a glorified #2 WR, why would they be asking for such a ridiculous price?

Not surprising. It's called the "starting point" of negotiations. But also, because it's no surprise they don't want to trade him. The Pats, as I stated above, are just giving Branch an opportunity to speak to other teams to gauge his worth. Depending on the response, it could help or hurt him, but I don't think both sides having more information of the landscape is a bad thing.

I believe Branch will sign before week 1 or 2 at a decent price (a little bit higher that what the Pats have offered so far), but I could see it being only a 2-year deal.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by TroyF

It was reported on a Philadelphia radio statioin that the Patriots asking price is two first round picks.

bwaahahahaha