New Orleans Modern Day version of "Sodom and Gomorrah"

[Subby]

Originally Posted by jeff061

Isolated to organized religion. Yes. We all have our flaws. Some greater than others. I look down on the belief, not the person(for the most part). I had/have friends who are Christians and family members who are Catholic. We know where we stand and get along fine.

Ascribing behaviors to an entire group of people is intellectually lazy and dangerous on many levels. It seems like you recognize that, however. At least you are being honest there.

Anyway - there are many, many different sects of Christianity - I think anyone would be wise not put them all under the same tent.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

Would now be an inappropriate time to post the lyrics to the the song "New Orleans" from the musical "Streetcar!" starring Marge Simpson and Ned Flanders?

Sure it would be, but it goes with the timbre of the thread, so here they are!

. Long before the Superdome,
. Where the Saints of football play,
. There's a city where the damned call home,
. Hear their hellish rondelet:
.
. New Orleans!
. Home of pirates, drunks, and whores...
. New Orleans!
. Tacky, overpriced souvenir stores...
.
. If you want to go to hell, you should take a trip
. To the Sodom and Gomorrah of the Mississip':
.
. New Orleans!
. Stinking, rotten, vomiting, vile...
. New Orleans!
. Putrid, brackish, maggotty, foul...
.
. New Orleans!
. Crummy, lousy, rancid and rank...
. New Orleans!

The commentary on the DVD about this episode is wonderful. Plus, all their talk about the lyrics in their songs... great stuff. The Simpsons DVDs are one of the few that are well worth their money- the commentaries are great or at least seasons 1-4. 5 is a little iffy as the writers turned over and there are some people just doing their first commentaries who aren't as good and I haven't seen 6 yet.

SI

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by hukarez

Pastor Bennett says, "Anybody that's ever visited New Orleans, the very name its self - Big Easy - denotes that it's easy to find sin there."

Pastor Bennett says the sign, is a sign of the times. "The purpose of the sign is to wake American up to the fact that America is going away from God. New York City's 9/11 was a call of judgment and New Orlean's horrible incident was judgment on a wicked city."

"If I was doing it to hurt people I would take it down, but I'm not doing it to hurt people. I'm doing it to point out the sins of America," said Bennett.

Someone care to point out the part where this pastor is condemming all residents of New Orleans as evil and wicked people who are going to hell?

For those who believe in God, we believe that things happen for a reason. Yes, there are pyhsical conditions in nature that cause a hurricane but religious people believe there is a higher power at work as well. Why did so many hurricanes miss New Orleans in the past? Why did this one hit? For those who don't believe, they'll draw it up 100% to nature and science but for those who do have religious faith - they might take into account a greater power at work and that this one hit New Orleans for a reason.

I'm sure there are many priests and pastors and deacons that are drawing similar parallels in their churches - telling their congregations that this horrific disaster is a sign that you never know when your hour will come and that you should be sorry for the things you have done wrong and committ yourself to doing better from this day on. I see nothing where this pastor is praising God for the city flooding and people dying. I see him making a point that New Orleans is a place where sin is on display and embraced with things like Mardi Gras and to tell his congregation to let what happened be a warning to them to change their lives like the story of Sodom and Gommorah in the Bible.

I agree that its unfortunate that people who hate religion will be quick to jump on it and run with it. Ah yes, all religious people are nutjobs and are celebrating that people died, right? Or are all religious people nutjobs because they can believe in something without having physical proof and/or reason staring them in the face? Having religious faith means you believe in a higher power - you believe in signs from God so some religious people are going to look at this as a sign - as a warning and reminder that God wants them to change their ways before they are faced with tribulations or even death in their own life. I fail to see the part where the religious nutjobs are dancing in the pews because people in New Orleans are dead - if someone would care to point that out I'd be happy to reconsider my thoughts.

[hukarez]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

In short, they were wicked cities that the Lord smote because they were so wicked. The story is most well known because the Lord was saving Lot and his family by telling them to get the heck out of Dodge before the bullets started flying. Lot's wife Rebecca, in direct violation of a clear order, looked back at the cities being smote and, naturally, was turned into a pillar of salt.

Ahhhhhh, I see. The 'pillar of salt' triggered an old school memory from some lecture back in the day. Thanks!

[Ben E Lou]

People are stunningly slow-witted, stubborn, or both.

If believers can't understand why this sign is so offensive to unbelievers, then they're stunningly slow-witted and/or stubborn.

If unbelievers can't understand why believers would see nothing wrong with this sign, then they're stunningly slow-witted and/or stubborn.

This one should be very easy to see from both sides of the fence. It is a matter of perspective, people.

[Subby]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

I've done a pretty exhaustive study on the various English translations of the Bible, and I've come to the conclusion that the King James is indeed the most accurate. I'm not sure how you've come to the determination that it is "notorious" for inaccuracy... it is widely accepted as the "Authorized Version" for very good reasons.

You are so full of shit.

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

It being the edition that's sold a lot of copies being #1, of course.

I'm not sure what your point is, but the KJV isn't copyrighted, so it's not like anyone's making a lot of money off those sales.

[capsicum]

Psalm 36 1-5 KJV
1The transgression of the wicked saith within my heart, that there is no fear of God before his eyes.

2For he flattereth himself in his own eyes, until his iniquity be found to be hateful.

3The words of his mouth are iniquity and deceit: he hath left off to be wise, and to do good.

4He deviseth mischief upon his bed; he setteth himself in a way that is not good; he abhorreth not evil.

5Thy mercy, O LORD, is in the heavens; and thy faithfulness reacheth unto the clouds.

[Cuckoo]

Originally Posted by Subby

Ascribing behaviors to an entire group of people is intellectually lazy and dangerous on many levels. It seems like you recognize that, however. At least you are being honest there.

Anyway - there are many, many different sects of Christianity - I think anyone would be wise not put them all under the same tent.

Well said. In addition, there are many, many different kinds of Christians. I think anyone would be a near idiot to put them under the same tent. But then again, that seems like the easiest way to do things these days. Nice little classifications for everyone means we don't have to think as hard.

[rkmsuf]

Holmgrem 27 2

"Hasselbeck shalt not throw interceptions."

[Subby]

I think it is funny and fitting that all of capsicum's posts are followed by the WTF??!?! smiley

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by jeff061

I look down on the belief, not the person(for the most part).

Originally Posted by jeff061

Nutjob-wise, there is no difference between this and following organized religion in general, no matter how seriously you take it.

So are you looking down on the belief or the nutjobs...er people here?

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

People are stunningly slow-witted, stubborn, or both.

If believers can't understand why this sign is so offensive to unbelievers, then they're stunningly slow-witted and/or stubborn.

If unbelievers can't understand why believers would see nothing wrong with this sign, then they're stunningly slow-witted and/or stubborn.

This one should be very easy to see from both sides of the fence. It is a matter of perspective, people.

Maybe you should spend less time on the fence and pick a side already.

[Coffee Warlord]

Bears 21:4

"To be called upon by thine officials for false start is a travesty of thine own making. To be called upon thine travesty thrice in succession is to be deserving of spanking by thine quarterback's Most Holy Trout."

[Shkspr]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

I'm not sure what your point is, but the KJV isn't copyrighted, so it's not like anyone's making a lot of money off those sales.

Thomas Nelson had revenues of $240 million last year and net profits of $20, so clearly SOMEONE is making a buck.

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by Subby

You are so full of shit.

Actually, I really HAVE spent a lot of time on this particular issue. My Dad is a Baptist minister, and he's positively fanatic about it - he won't even look at anything but a KJV bible at this point - and we've had lengthy discussions on the matter. I have read several books on the topic and done a great deal of research on my own on the nature of many of the popular English translations and the original Greek and Hebrew texts they are based on. I've come to the conclusion that the KJV is based upon the most accurate original texts, and the translation is the most accurate English version of those texts.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

I do not think it's fair to say that most Christian pastors would "send" a hurricane to New Orleans, just because they disapprove of the behavior that the region is notorious for.

I'd agree. I'd also say that this pastor is one of the exceptions. And I'd say that it's bizarre to blame the entire region for the behavior of a few. What happened to tolerance and reserving judgment?

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

God's children have always had to suffer. This is illustrated all over the Bible. The point is not to say that "Jews were bad - they got what they deserved..." but to realize "that's what we ALL deserve..." Instead of focusing on the negative impact of the holocaust, it might be more productive to look at the positive - would Israel exist today if not for WWII?

I guarantee you the Jews would be happier without the need for Israel. Most care little for artifacts of millennia past. The rich culture built in the neighborhoods of Warsaw, Berlin and countless other European cities can never be replaced.

None of us deserve mass extermination. What a horrible thought.

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

I feel pretty sorry for you if you can't see the hand of God in all of creation.

Oh, don't worry about me. I never saw the hidden pictures in those zany drawings you used to find at mall kiosks, either, and I turned out okay.

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

Now, I don't know if that sign is the best way to bring people to the acceptance of Jesus Christ, but I can certainly sympathize with the frustration of a church in the New Orleans area, and their natural acceptance of one of the good things to come out of this crisis - that this year, there probably won't be a Mardi Gras, or any other celebration of sinful excess in the streets of their city. Perhaps this disaster will shift people's attention from carnal lusts and towards the things that are a little more important in life.

Bad news. Mardi Gras is apparently still on.

I do think it's sad that people would view this as a sign. Did you think it was a similar sign when someone gunned down Ben's friends at Tucker last year? How 'bout when my son was born not breathing, and needed a few days in the neo-natal ICU?

[RealDeal]

It's possible the parallel between Sodom and Gomorroh and New Orleans also has to do with the fact that New Orleans was full of blacks and S/G was a city mostly full of Africans (black people). However, maybe too much can be read into the similarity.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

Maybe you should spend less time on the fence and pick a side already.

Why?

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Radii

Why?

that was my first thought as well

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by Shkspr

Thomas Nelson had revenues of $240 million last year and net profits of $20, so clearly SOMEONE is making a buck.

They had a net profit of twenty bucks on revenues of $240 million? Somebody's gonna get fired.

Nelson makes money on Bibles packed with commentary and bound in fancy leather covers. But if you just want to read the KJV, I can mail you one for free, or you can buy a copy at the local dollar store.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

Maybe you should spend less time on the fence and pick a side already.

I'm not on the fence. I do, however, stay near the door.

[Subby]

Originally Posted by capsicum

Psalm 36 1-5 KJV
1The transgression of the wicked saith within my heart, that there is no fear of God before his eyes.

2For he flattereth himself in his own eyes, until his iniquity be found to be hateful.

3The words of his mouth are iniquity and deceit: he hath left off to be wise, and to do good.

4He deviseth mischief upon his bed; he setteth himself in a way that is not good; he abhorreth not evil.

5Thy mercy, O LORD, is in the heavens; and thy faithfulness reacheth unto the clouds.

Oh crap. ScriptureBot 2000 is on the fritz again.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

I do think it's sad that people would view this as a sign.

Why is that sad Jim? What would be sad is if people are happy that people died or had their lives destroyed because of Katrina - why is it sad if a person thinks "Wow, what a horrible disaster. My heart goes out to the victims, the survivors and all their family and friends. Its really amazing how at any point at any time disaster can strike - maybe I better get my life in order before its too late"

Is that sad that someone can view a tragedy as a wake up call to themselves? I still fail to see where people are rejoicing at the death and disaster? If they are, that is VERY wrong and very sad indeed but to look at a horrible tragedy as a wake up call for your own life...how can that be sad?

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Subby

...on the fritz again.

I do not think that means what you think it means.

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

I guarantee you the Jews would be happier without the need for Israel. Most care little for artifacts of millennia past. The rich culture built in the neighborhoods of Warsaw, Berlin and countless other European cities can never be replaced.

I guarantee the Germans would be happier without what the war did to their nation. Same with the British, Polish, Austrians, French, etc. The point is, the war happened. It caused a lot of death and suffering, but a great deal of good DID come as a result of it. To ignore that is pretty depressing - why don't we just say all those people died in vain?

Originally Posted by Solecismic

None of us deserve mass extermination. What a horrible thought.

The point is that we're all going to die, sooner or later, one way or another. Maybe when it all happens to a bunch of people at once, we should think a little more about it.

Originally Posted by Solecismic

Bad news. Mardi Gras is apparently still on.

I do think it's sad that people would view this as a sign. Did you think it was a similar sign when someone gunned down Ben's friends at Tucker last year? How 'bout when my son was born not breathing, and needed a few days in the neo-natal ICU?

Nothing good came of either of those events? We all have personal tragedy to fight through, Jim. I choose to seek the blessing in it, and not spend all day dwelling on the pain.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

I do not think that means what you think it means.

heh, my initial thought

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

Why is that sad Jim? What would be sad is if people are happy that people died or had their lives destroyed because of Katrina - why is it sad if a person thinks "Wow, what a horrible disaster. My heart goes out to the victims, the survivors and all their family and friends. Its really amazing how at any point at any time disaster can strike - maybe I better get my life in order before its too late"

Is that sad that someone can view a tragedy as a wake up call to themselves? I still fail to see where people are rejoicing at the death and disaster? If they are, that is VERY wrong and very sad indeed but to look at a horrible tragedy as a wake up call for your own life...how can that be sad?

That response (which doesn't necessarily have anything to do with this being "a sign") doesn't sound irrational to me. I doubt anyone would have a real problem with it, unless you elaborate on what exactly you mean by "get my life in order."

If this is just a veiled way of saying "God hates all the butt sex" then I think you're going to lose some passengers on your peace train. Sometimes it's the sizzle, sometimes the steak.

[capsicum]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

Why is that sad Jim? What would be sad is if people are happy that people died or had their lives destroyed because of Katrina - why is it sad if a person thinks "Wow, what a horrible disaster. My heart goes out to the victims, the survivors and all their family and friends. Its really amazing how at any point at any time disaster can strike - maybe I better get my life in order before its too late"

Is that sad that someone can view a tragedy as a wake up call to themselves? I still fail to see where people are rejoicing at the death and disaster? If they are, that is VERY wrong and very sad indeed but to look at a horrible tragedy as a wake up call for your own life...how can that be sad?

Wonderfully well said. Thank You

[QuikSand]

Hey the board almost shut down just now - maybe that's a sign, too.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

That response (which doesn't necessarily have anything to do with this being "a sign") doesn't sound irrational to me. I doubt anyone would have a real problem with it, unless you elaborate on what exactly you mean by "get my life in order."

If this is just a veiled way of saying "God hates all the butt sex" then I think you're going to lose some passengers on your peace train. Sometimes it's the sizzle, sometimes the steak.

You are on a roll.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

Why is that sad Jim? What would be sad is if people are happy that people died or had their lives destroyed because of Katrina - why is it sad if a person thinks "Wow, what a horrible disaster. My heart goes out to the victims, the survivors and all their family and friends. Its really amazing how at any point at any time disaster can strike - maybe I better get my life in order before its too late"

Is that sad that someone can view a tragedy as a wake up call to themselves? I still fail to see where people are rejoicing at the death and disaster? If they are, that is VERY wrong and very sad indeed but to look at a horrible tragedy as a wake up call for your own life...how can that be sad?

Gary, if you view it that way, that is very understandable.

However, it has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. By referencing punishment through the parable of Sodom and Gomorrah, there is an implied judgment (human) that all residents of coastal Mississippi and southeast Louisiana were punished for wicked behavior.

There's an implied human judgment that your god punishes behavior you don't approve of (the Bible does not mention New Orleans or Mississippi, by name).

You erased most of the paragraph I wrote when quoting it. How do you feel about the rest of it?

[Subby]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

If this is just a veiled way of saying "God hates all the butt sex" then I think you're going to lose some passengers on your peace train. Sometimes it's the sizzle, sometimes the steak.

I think I just found the clubhouse leader for capsicum's new sig line!

[Karlifornia]

Ok, I had to make a new sig.

[capsicum]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

Someone care to point out the part where this pastor is condemming all residents of New Orleans as evil and wicked people who are going to hell?

For those who believe in God, we believe that things happen for a reason. Yes, there are pyhsical conditions in nature that cause a hurricane but religious people believe there is a higher power at work as well. Why did so many hurricanes miss New Orleans in the past? Why did this one hit? For those who don't believe, they'll draw it up 100% to nature and science but for those who do have religious faith - they might take into account a greater power at work and that this one hit New Orleans for a reason.

I'm sure there are many priests and pastors and deacons that are drawing similar parallels in their churches - telling their congregations that this horrific disaster is a sign that you never know when your hour will come and that you should be sorry for the things you have done wrong and committ yourself to doing better from this day on. I see nothing where this pastor is praising God for the city flooding and people dying. I see him making a point that New Orleans is a place where sin is on display and embraced with things like Mardi Gras and to tell his congregation to let what happened be a warning to them to change their lives like the story of Sodom and Gommorah in the Bible.

I agree that its unfortunate that people who hate religion will be quick to jump on it and run with it. Ah yes, all religious people are nutjobs and are celebrating that people died, right? Or are all religious people nutjobs because they can believe in something without having physical proof and/or reason staring them in the face? Having religious faith means you believe in a higher power - you believe in signs from God so some religious people are going to look at this as a sign - as a warning and reminder that God wants them to change their ways before they are faced with tribulations or even death in their own life. I fail to see the part where the religious nutjobs are dancing in the pews because people in New Orleans are dead - if someone would care to point that out I'd be happy to reconsider my thoughts.

AMEN
Even better. Wish I explained myself nearly as well.
I usually do better when im not holding one of our babies , but you are making my day.

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

By the way, my use of the word "extra-terrestrial" had nothing to do with a pun on anal sex. It was a reference to the age old "heaven or hell" judgment - both places not of this earth.

I was hoping you would understand that to be a joke. I said I know you didn't mean it that way.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

Someone care to point out the part where this pastor is condemming all residents of New Orleans as evil and wicked people who are going to hell?

Pastor Bennett says, "Anybody that's ever visited New Orleans, the very name its self - Big Easy - denotes that it's easy to find sin there."

Pastor Bennett says the sign, is a sign of the times. "The purpose of the sign is to wake American up to the fact that America is going away from God. New York City's 9/11 was a call of judgment and New Orlean's horrible incident was judgment on a wicked city."

----

He's not saying that "all residents of New Orleans as evil and wicked people who are going to hell", but he is saying that this was an act of God punishing the city of New Orleans for being wicked, being sinners. I assume he believes all sinners are going to hell, but I don't know, never been a Baptist, not sure where they come out on that.

I think his statements are pretty clear and quite shameful and, to me, it seems like he and his "ilk" are being very righteous and smug about this whole thing.

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

I agree that its unfortunate that people who hate religion will be quick to jump on it and run with it. Ah yes, all religious people are nutjobs and are celebrating that people died, right? Or are all religious people nutjobs because they can believe in something without having physical proof and/or reason staring them in the face? Having religious faith means you believe in a higher power - you believe in signs from God so some religious people are going to look at this as a sign - as a warning and reminder that God wants them to change their ways before they are faced with tribulations or even death in their own life. I fail to see the part where the religious nutjobs are dancing in the pews because people in New Orleans are dead - if someone would care to point that out I'd be happy to reconsider my thoughts.

I have tried to explain this before and I will try again. I don't think all religious people are nutjobs. I certainly don't think all religious people are celebrating that people died. I was pretty careful to cast my displeasure towards this paster and his "ilk" (meaning those people who share his particular view of the tragic events).

I am an athiest, but my entire family (and my wife's family) are all Christians. My family is, in fact, entirely Catholic. I love them all. I certainly don't consider them to be "nutjobs" and I know for certain they weren't celebrating that people died. I would imagine that 95% of my friends would consider themselves Christians/believers.

I am not a God-believer, but I wouldn't ever flame folks or ridicule or look down upon or cast any sort of dispersions any person for simply believing. Never have, never would. I will gladly (and gleefully), however, flame folks who claim some horrendous act (see above) is God's work/punishment or some hatefilled/intolerant view is God's will. Just remember, however, any such "flame" would have nothing to do with God or religion, but the act or belief itself. For example, if Pastor Bennett claimed that the hurricane was a act of the Great Powerful Alien Supreme Commander, the All-Knowning Lord Kimboat, sent to punish non-believers for their sacriligeous use of plastic beads and for the eating/killing too much shrimp (Lord Kimboat's most favored species) I would still mock the statement.

It aint got nothing to do with God or religion, just evil, stupidity, ignorance, or whatever is going on. Sometimes, however, the source of these beliefs will take some flak/collateral damage in the process, simply because for some people it's all wrapped up together.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

I've done a pretty exhaustive study on the various English translations of the Bible, and I've come to the conclusion that the King James is indeed the most accurate. I'm not sure how you've come to the determination that it is "notorious" for inaccuracy... it is widely accepted as the "Authorized Version" for very good reasons.

I believe that the KJV translation is sourced from various Latin and Greek versions. Some of those Greek/Latin sources are copies of earlier works, and a bit of error (some translation, some transcription) crept in at that stage.

For those books that were originally in Hebrew, like the books that comprise the Torah, there are excellent translations now that source directly from the Hebrew. I would assume that a direct sourcing would be more accurate than sourcing from a Greek or Latin translation of the Hebrew.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

You are on a roll.

I know. Quiksand aka Sassy McSasserson.

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

I believe that the KJV translation is sourced from various Latin and Greek versions. Some of those Greek/Latin sources are copies of earlier works, and a bit of error (some translation, some transcription) crept in at that stage.

For those books that were originally in Hebrew, like the books that comprise the Torah, there are excellent translations now that source directly from the Hebrew. I would assume that a direct sourcing would be more accurate than sourcing from a Greek or Latin translation of the Hebrew.

Actually, the KJV is taken directly from the Hebrew (Old Testament) and Greek (New Testament).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Ja...on#Translation

[Shkspr]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

They had a net profit of twenty bucks on revenues of $240 million? Somebody's gonna get fired.

Nelson makes money on Bibles packed with commentary and bound in fancy leather covers. But if you just want to read the KJV, I can mail you one for free, or you can buy a copy at the local dollar store.

$20 million, of course.

The notion that even your "free" copies don't eventually net someone somewhere a healthy chunk of dough is amusing, but naive. Even promotional copies are funded from the donations of others, given to spur conversion, which will be followed by requests for more donation, to fund the publishing of new copies of the free bibles to give away...well, a portion of those funds will go to the publishing program...the rest will go to upkeep of the ministry, new buildings (to be constructed by firms with ties to the congregation), new outreach programs (which aim to get new members to join and donate to the church), etc.

None of which is here or there, or presented with any rancor. Christian publishing, in ALL its forms, is business.

The fact that something is out of copyright doesn't mean that nobody makes a buck off of it - it means that the publishers don't have to pay the author a buck for it, so they can keep two.

I didn't mention Zondervan, but it's worth noting that they're owned by HarperCollins, which is a Rupert Murdoch company. So when Fox News tells you about the faith and Christian values of the Republican party, are they really just cross-merchandising?

Gotta go - I need to sell some KJV bibles.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

I've come to the conclusion that the KJV is based upon the most accurate original texts, and the translation is the most accurate English version of those texts.

That's odd. I had a bunch of friends in grad school who wrote/spoke ancient Greek, and my father-in-law writes & speaks Hebrew and they're all of the opinion that it's not the world's best translation.

[HomerJSimpson]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

That's odd. I had a bunch of friends in grad school who wrote/spoke ancient Greek, and my father-in-law writes & speaks Hebrew and they're all of the opinion that it's not the world's best translation.

It is because you'd have to have a pretty big bias to say it was. Scholars would scoff at the very idea (both conservative and liberal).

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

Gary, if you view it that way, that is very understandable.

However, it has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. By referencing punishment through the parable of Sodom and Gomorrah, there is an implied judgment (human) that all residents of coastal Mississippi and southeast Louisiana were punished for wicked behavior.

There's an implied human judgment that your god punishes behavior you don't approve of (the Bible does not mention New Orleans or Mississippi, by name).

You erased most of the paragraph I wrote when quoting it. How do you feel about the rest of it?

Well I think it does deal with the discussion at hand - if you believe that this is a sign from God then yes, all residents of coastal Mississippi and SE LA were punished for wicked behavior - not necessarily their own wicked behavior though.

There's no implied judgment - I do believe that God punishes behavior He does not approve of. That punishment could be small, it could be big, it could be in this life or perhaps after death.

As for the rest of your earlier statement I didn't say anything because of its directly personal nature but I will say this - I believe that everything happens for a reason and that sometimes bad things do happen to good people for a reason that is not apparent to myself. Its terrible about your son but did he come through ok? Did that experience, as tragic as it is, not make you and your wife stronger and relish your son even more and realize in that moment how precious and fragile life can be? I don't know why Ben's friend was murdered or why your son was born not breathing - it doesn't make sense to me but I'm not supposed to know everything. I just accept the fact that there is a higher power than myself and that there is a reason - I know that may seem stupid to someone who is not religious but for those of us who are having that faith sometimes is the only way to get through tragedies like that.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

I guarantee the Germans would be happier without what the war did to their nation. Same with the British, Polish, Austrians, French, etc. The point is, the war happened. It caused a lot of death and suffering, but a great deal of good DID come as a result of it. To ignore that is pretty depressing - why don't we just say all those people died in vain?

I can't help but feel what you're saying here is: "The Holocaust is over, done. Don't think about it any more. Concentrate on the good things!" I think that's an unrealistic world view.

The point is that we're all going to die, sooner or later, one way or another. Maybe when it all happens to a bunch of people at once, we should think a little more about it.

"Think a little more about it" is one thing. Celebrate it as a cleansing as the pastor in the original post did, is quite another. Can you not understand this subtle difference?

We all have personal tragedy to fight through, Jim. I choose to seek the blessing in it, and not spend all day dwelling on the pain.

Were you only to see capsicum's bannings the same way.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by HomerJSimpson

It is because you'd have to have a pretty big bias to say it was. Scholars would scoff at the very idea (both conservative and liberal).

Well, I'm no scholar (although I've studied more than most, I'd imagine), and I'm certainly not theologically liberal by any way you'd try to spin it. That being said, for whatever it is worth, I'd never, ever hold up the KJV as "the most accurate English version..."










...unless, of course, I were living in 1611.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

Why is that sad Jim? What would be sad is if people are happy that people died or had their lives destroyed because of Katrina - why is it sad if a person thinks "Wow, what a horrible disaster. My heart goes out to the victims, the survivors and all their family and friends. Its really amazing how at any point at any time disaster can strike - maybe I better get my life in order before its too late"

Is that sad that someone can view a tragedy as a wake up call to themselves? I still fail to see where people are rejoicing at the death and disaster? If they are, that is VERY wrong and very sad indeed but to look at a horrible tragedy as a wake up call for your own life...how can that be sad?

You know, I think we're all responding to this:

During a heated discussion, Robin asked, "What's the point of the sign out there?" Pastor Bennett replied, "The point of the sign is New Orleans, Las Vegas, San Francisco, and New York City are some of the most wicked cities in America."

Pastor Bennett says the sign, is a sign of the times. "The purpose of the sign is to wake American up to the fact that America is going away from God. New York City's 9/11 was a call of judgment and New Orlean's horrible incident was judgment on a wicked city."

Maybe, just maybe, some people take exception to the views of the good Pastor Bennett.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

Actually, the KJV is taken directly from the Hebrew (Old Testament) and Greek (New Testament).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Ja...on#Translation

I stand corrected, Franklinnoble. The article does make the point that Hebrew translation in the KJV is not as strong as it could be:

Originally Posted by wikipedia

Hebrew scholarship by non-Jews was not as developed in the early 17th century as it is now, and it is unclear how well the translators grasped the language (for example, the Greek word "Pascha", a transliteration of the Hebrew word "Passover", was translated as "Easter", instead of the correct "Passover" in Acts 12:4). The New Testament is largely unaffected by this as the grasp of Ancient Greek was already quite firm in the West by the time the translation was made. The difference is partially caused by the fact that while there is a very large and diverse body of extra-biblical material extant in Ancient Greek, there is very little such material in Ancient Hebrew, and probably not even this little was known to the translators at the time. Additionally, Hebrew scholarship in modern times has been much improved by information gleaned from Aramaic (Syrian) and Arabic, two Semitic languages related to Ancient Hebrew, both of which have a continuous existence as living languages. Since these languages are still in use and have larger bodies of extant material than Ancient Hebrew (especially in the case of Arabic), many Hebrew words and Hebrew grammar phenomena can now be understood in a way not available at the time the King James Version was written.

Now that Hebrew scholarship has progressed, and now that we have a better understanding of ancient Hebrew--more precise translations of books originally written in Hebrew are now available...

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by Shkspr

$20 million, of course.

The notion that even your "free" copies don't eventually net someone somewhere a healthy chunk of dough is amusing, but naive. Even promotional copies are funded from the donations of others, given to spur conversion, which will be followed by requests for more donation, to fund the publishing of new copies of the free bibles to give away...well, a portion of those funds will go to the publishing program...the rest will go to upkeep of the ministry, new buildings (to be constructed by firms with ties to the congregation), new outreach programs (which aim to get new members to join and donate to the church), etc.

None of which is here or there, or presented with any rancor. Christian publishing, in ALL its forms, is business.

The fact that something is out of copyright doesn't mean that nobody makes a buck off of it - it means that the publishers don't have to pay the author a buck for it, so they can keep two.

I didn't mention Zondervan, but it's worth noting that they're owned by HarperCollins, which is a Rupert Murdoch company. So when Fox News tells you about the faith and Christian values of the Republican party, are they really just cross-merchandising?

Gotta go - I need to sell some KJV bibles.

I'm not suggesting the publishing business isn't making money of Christianity. The "Left Behind" novels were a disappointing illustration of that... they took a story that could have been told in about four books and stretched it out to twelve - and I think they did so largely over the profitability of the series.

I also don't care much for the Zondervan company... they own the NIV copyright, and a few other "modern" translations as well. I don't care for them at all, and I know their motivation is purely profit.

The fact remains that you can get a free KJV Bible from a number of sources, and you really don't have to worry about it "costing" you anything later on.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

I'm not suggesting the publishing business isn't making money of Christianity. The "Left Behind" novels were a disappointing illustration of that... they took a story that could have been told in about four books and stretched it out to twelve monumentally poorly-written ones - and I think they did so largely over the profitability of the series.

Fixed it for you.