BREAKING NEWS: Sniper sentenced to death

[terpkristin]

Not to get in on the death penalty good/bad argument, but how many of you actually LIVE in the DC area and were affected by the snipers? I was. Scary times. Particularly showing up for your soccer game on Saturday morning and seeing a copy of the Washington Post front page, on which was a picture of the Taco Bell/KFC where someone was shot and killed the night before...to look up and realize that the Taco Bell/KFC in question is the one directly across the street from the soccer field.

I find it frustrating that so many people have such strong feelings when a lot of them weren't at all involved in the panic, fear, and upset it caused.

~tk
For the record, against the death penalty, even in this case, but I'm not here to argue THAT point.

[Dutch]

My mother and father live in Northern Virginia. They were pretty nervous.

So you're vote is that the $250k should go to the murderer, not the vicitm. Sound logic, I think I'm buying into this No Death Penalty thing.

[sachmo71]

Originally Posted by sabotai

Make sure you let me know when they create an escape proof prison. Then I'll be on your side.

(But then again, he could kill while in prison as well.)

If one murderer can be locked up in prison, why not all? I do realize that it depends on the severity of the crime, but I happen to think that murder is all the same at it's most basic level. Society has deemed that his crime dooms him to death, but I just don't see how we are all better off in the end.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Dutch

My mother and father live in Northern Virginia. They were pretty nervous.

So you're vote is that the $250k should go to the murderer, not the vicitm. Sound logic, I think I'm buying into this No Death Penalty thing.

Or you missed my post earlier that executing is net more expensive than imprisoning.

[Sun Tzu]

Why don't they just hang him. Does it cost $250,000 to get a peice of rope and a tree?

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by John Galt

Or you missed my post earlier that executing is net more expensive than imprisoning.

You also missed my earlier post asking for Low Quality Capital Punishment....such as a rope and a tree.

Of course, lawyers cost money, but if we had lawyers doing murder cases on a "volun-told" basis, they probably wouldn't be so interested in trying to get murderers off.

Or better yet, a law that sentences the defense lawyer to death also....hmmmm...

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Dutch

You also missed my earlier post asking for Low Quality Capital Punishment....such as a rope and a tree.

Of course, lawyers cost money, but if we had lawyers doing murder cases on a "volun-told" basis, they probably wouldn't be so interested in trying to get murderers off.

Or better yet, a law that sentences the defense lawyer to death also....hmmmm...

The death penalty doesn't cost more because of the method, it is because of incarceration until death, extra security, appeals costs, etc.

Yeah, that's nice - execute lawyers who dedicate their lives to trying to save people. Death penalty representation is a thankless and admirable job - even suggesting that you kill those who do it is despicable.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by John Galt

The death penalty doesn't cost more because of the method, it is because of incarceration until death, extra security, appeals costs, etc.

Yeah, that's nice - execute lawyers who dedicate their lives to trying to save people. Death penalty representation is a thankless and admirable job - even suggesting that you kill those who do it is despicable.

It was kind of along the lines of "10,000 lawyers at the bottom of the sea..."

A joke. Lighten up, brother!

And if the overhead for a death row inmate costs that much, we should revamp the system. Such as put them in a big cage where there family can feed and cloth them until it's time to go.

My guess is John Galt would also prefer the $250,000 to go to the criminal, not the victim.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Dutch

It was kind of along the lines of "10,000 lawyers at the bottom of the sea..."

A joke. Lighten up, brother!

And if the overhead for a death row inmate costs that much, we should revamp the system. Such as put them in a big cage where there family can feed and cloth them until it's time to go.

My guess is John Galt would also prefer the $250,000 to go to the criminal, not the victim.

My guess is that you don't realize the number of people every year who are found guilty in trials with poor representation only to have those convictions overturned at a later date. My guess is that you don't realize the deplorable conditions of most American prisons - they are not cushy arrangements. My guess is you do not the rates of assault, rape, murder, and suicide in prisons and that you think it is fine to treat other human beings like that. My guess is that you watch too much TV and don't have a clue how freakin scary prisons in general are and how really screwed up death row is. I went recently and it is not something I ever want to do again.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by John Galt

My guess is that you don't realize the number of people every year who are found guilty in trials with poor representation only to have those convictions overturned at a later date.

None. Nor do I have any idea how many murders could have been avoided had the law been a true deterent.

My guess is that you don't realize the deplorable conditions of most American prisons - they are not cushy arrangements. My guess is you do not the rates of assault, rape, murder, and suicide in prisons and that you think it is fine to treat other human beings like that. My guess is that you watch too much TV and don't have a clue how freakin scary prisons in general are and how really screwed up death row is. I went recently and it is not something I ever want to do again.

Okay, not only is John Galt in no mood to consider using this wasted money on a victim's fund, but he would suggest we give the murder $500,000 instead of $250k.

[Buddy Grant]

Dutch favors a return to the good old days of lynching, that would make a dandy campaign platform for that FOFC election dealy thread.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by John Galt

My guess is that you don't realize the number of people every year who are found guilty in trials with poor representation only to have those convictions overturned at a later date. My guess is that you don't realize the deplorable conditions of most American prisons - they are not cushy arrangements. My guess is you do not the rates of assault, rape, murder, and suicide in prisons and that you think it is fine to treat other human beings like that. My guess is that you watch too much TV and don't have a clue how freakin scary prisons in general are and how really screwed up death row is. I went recently and it is not something I ever want to do again.

I imagine prison sucks pretty bad. What'd you do to get locked up?

[The Afoci]

Originally Posted by stevew

I imagine prison sucks pretty bad. What'd you do to get locked up?

He pissed of SkyDog in a gay marriage thread. Bannings nowadays are getting tough.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Dutch

None. Nor do I have any idea how many murders could have been avoided had the law been a true deterent.



Okay, not only is John Galt in no mood to consider using this wasted money on a victim's fund, but he would suggest we give the murder $500,000 instead of $250k.

Looking at virtually every study of the death penalty in its deterrent effect, the evidence is not conclusive either way. As of today, there is no clear proof that the death penalty deters murder or any other crime. Studies have also shown no deterrent effect when a mandatory death penalty (as you propose) has been historically applied. It should also be noted that a mandatory death penalty has been found to be wholly unconstitutional under the due process provisions of the Constitution.

You can make a lot of arguments for the death penalty, but deterrence is the one with the least evidentiary support.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by The Afoci

He pissed of SkyDog in a gay marriage thread. Bannings nowadays are getting tough.

LOL. Aren't you my agent? Why didn't you get me out of that mess? I want to be traded to the Eagles, damn it!

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by John Galt

Looking at virtually every study of the death penalty in its deterrent effect, the evidence is not conclusive either way. As of today, there is no clear proof that the death penalty deters murder or any other crime. Studies have also shown no deterrent effect when a mandatory death penalty (as you propose) has been historically applied. It should also be noted that a mandatory death penalty has been found to be wholly unconstitutional under the due process provisions of the Constitution.

You can make a lot of arguments for the death penalty, but deterrence is the one with the least evidentiary support.

John

You are simply not listening to what I am saying. There is no proof because we do not use it effectively as a deterrent.

If you jump off the Empire State Building, the result of your actions is clear. You will die. Hence the reason we don't see many people jumping off the Empire State Building to commit suicide. (Note: Many suicide attempts use less absolute means in hopes of making the attempt, and not actually getting the result).

But as it stands right now, if the American Justice System logic were the law of gravity, it would dictate that if you jump off the Empire State Building, your chance of dying is 1 in 250. We'd see a lot more people jumping off the Empire State Building. Why? Who knows, they'd probably make a TV show out of it, but the ammount of people leaping over the side would increase.

But anyway, if people knew they were going to die if they murder somebody, the rates will drop. That is based on logic. The amount of muder-then-suicide crimes in America is so minimal, they are mentioned on Newscasts. Most criminals don't want to die and most think they won't even if they do what they do. The USA is the most violent nation on Earth with regard to violent crimes.

Making the criminals more comfortable is not the solution, but another reason to encourage more violent crime. I say kill them and let the individuals responsabilities towards society take over. Make the justice system a deterrent again.

[Fritz]

just an aside, the empire state building has those fence thingys to prevent jumps.

[The Afoci]

Originally Posted by John Galt

LOL. Aren't you my agent? Why didn't you get me out of that mess? I want to be traded to the Eagles, damn it!

Philly don't want you no more. Your big mouth is getting us in trouble. Just shut up and look pretty and things will be okay.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Nor do I have any idea how many murders could have been avoided had the law been a true deterent

This is such a fallacy. Nothing deters murderers. If you were to poll the convicted murderers serving life sentences or on death row, you would be hard pressed to find one who considered not doing it because of the consequences. They either (a) think they won't be caught, or (b) don't think.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Dutch

John

You are simply not listening to what I am saying. There is no proof because we do not use it effectively as a deterrent.

I think it is you who is having trouble reading. I wrote that even in instances where a MANDATORY death penalty has been applied, deterrence studies were inconclusive. And there has been substantial study showing that although certainty of punishment is important in deterence that the certainty of death penalty versus life in prison is not a statistically significant factor.

And you seem to ignore the whole unconstitutional point. Your "logic" and argument was made a lot 20 or 30 years ago and many jurisdictions adopted the approach before that. Yet, murder rates went down and ultimately the Supreme Court found such an approach unconstitutional because not all murders are the same.

And you know what else happened when the death penalty was mandatory? Jury convictions went down. Hardly the outcome anyone wants.

I still vacilate on the death penalty debate, but your arguments on deterrence are just not supported by evidence.

[rkmsuf]

Seems to me that if you are crazy enough to carry out a murder there's no resonable level of deterrance that would make much difference...

I'm not saying no deterrance but whether it's life in prison, death, castration ect..what's the difference...

[Dutch]

Just checked the internet. If an 18 year old man shoots and kills somebody else with his own free will, he will receive 2 million dollars of state care over the course of his life, provided he lives to be 78 years old. This 2 million dollars gives you the ability to live like a caged rat in filthy conditions, you probably will get beat up and rapped constantly or you get to beat up others and rape them.

The victim's family receives nothing.

[Dutch]

Hmmm, more checking.

Criminals who commit murder spend an average of 7 years behind bars.

Only 1 in 2,000 are ever sentenced to death.

All prisoner's may receive a free college education if they desire.

[ice4277]

I think the death penalty should certainly be used in circumstances such as these, and I would not be against the law being more liberally applied. However, aren't most murders committed by people as an 'act of passion' or in a fit of rage? I can't imagine that people in these extreme mental states would somehow, just at the point of committing the crime, begin to rationalize the idea that they will get the death penalty if they go through with it. Therefore, I don't really see the death penalty being much of a deterrent in most cases of murder.

Then, of course, you have the risk of innocent people being wrongly convicted and given the death penalty. It is easy to say, get rid of the appeals/bureaucratic part of the process and put a bullet in the guys head, but to me, the idea of potentially executing a number of wrongly convicted individuals in order to save a few dollars puts a VERY bad taste in my mouth. If there would be a way to provide a well-reasoned appeals process while saving money, great. If not, I couldn't, in good conscience, support a shorter process.

[Dutch]

Bump!

If an 18 year old man shoots and kills somebody else with his own free will, he will receive 2 million dollars of state care over the course of his life, provided he lives to be 78 years old and isn't released from prison. This 2 million dollars gives you the ability to live like a caged rat in filthy conditions, you probably will get beat up and rapped constantly or you get to beat up others and rape them.

The victim's family receives nothing.

Criminals who commit murder spend an average of 7 years behind bars.

Only 1 in 2,000 are ever sentenced to death.

All prisoner's may receive a free college education if they desire.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by stevew

The silly thing is that they will let him wait probably 2-4 years to get his punishment. I wish the cops would have just bumrushed his car, guns-a-blazing. That way we could have all saved money, and that little fuck who was shooting people with him would have died too.

Try six-and-a-half years. But tonight the jig is up.

hxxp://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091110/ap_on_re_us/us_sniper_execution


Va. gov clears way for DC sniper's execution

Washington sniper faces execution

By DENA POTTER, Associated Press Writer Dena Potter, Associated Press Writer – 1 hr 34 mins ago

RICHMOND, Va. – Gov. Tim Kaine denied clemency Tuesday for sniper John Allen Muhammad, clearing the way for him to be executed for the attacks that terrorized the nation's capital region for three weeks in 2002.

Muhammad is set to die by injection Tuesday night at Greensville Correctional Center in Jarratt. His attorneys had asked Kaine to commute his sentence to life in prison because they say he is mentally ill. The U.S. Supreme Court turned down his final appeal.

"I find no compelling reason to set aside the sentence that was recommended by the jury and then imposed and affirmed by the courts," Kaine, who is known for carefully considering death penalty cases, said in a statement. "Accordingly, I decline to intervene."

Muhammad was sentenced to death for killing Dean Harold Meyers at a Manassas gas station during a three-week spree that left 10 dead across Maryland, Virginia and Washington, D.C.

He and his teenage accomplice, Lee Boyd Malvo, also were suspected of fatal shootings in other states, including Louisiana, Alabama and Arizona.

The motive for the shootings remains murky. Malvo said Muhammad wanted to use the plot to extort $10 million from the government to set up a camp in Canada where homeless children would be trained as terrorists. But Muhammad's ex-wife has said she believes the attacks were a smoke screen for his plan to kill her and regain custody of their three children.

For the families of those killed, the day is a long time coming.

Cheryll Witz is one of several victims' relatives who were going to watch the execution. Malvo confessed that, at Muhammad's direction, he shot her father, Jerry Taylor, on a Tucson, Ariz., golf course in March 2002.

"He basically watched my dad breathe his last breath," she said. "Why shouldn't I watch his last breath?"

The shootings terrorized the Washington region, with victims gunned down while doing everyday chores like shopping or pumping gas. People stayed indoors. Those who had to go outside weaved as they walked or bobbed their heads to make themselves less of a target.

The terror ended on Oct. 24, 2002, when police captured Muhammad and Malvo as they slept at a Maryland rest stop in a car they had outfitted so a shooter could hide in the trunk and fire through a hole in the body of the vehicle. Malvo is serving a life sentence in Virginia.

Death penalty opponents planned vigils across the state, and some were headed for Jarratt, about an hour south of Richmond, for the execution.

Beth Panilaitis, executive director of Virginians for Alternatives to the Death Penalty, said those who planned to protest understand the fear that gripped the community, and the nation, during the attacks.

"The greater metro area and the citizens of Virginia have been safe from this crime for seven years," Panilaitis said. "Incarceration has worked and life without the possibility of parole has and will continue to keep the people of Virginia safe."