Judge sentences O.J. Simpson to prison

[Surtt]

In case everyone forgot,

The white bronco chase is what launched the whole thing.
Back in those days no one had ever seen anything like it.
Yet here it was, on live TV for hours, it really captured the nations attention, which carried over into the trial. People came home from work and had this plastered all over their TVs.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Surtt

In case everyone forgot,

The white bronco chase is what launched the whole thing.
Back in those days no one had ever seen anything like it.
Yet here it was, on live TV for hours, it really captured the nations attention, which carried over into the trial. People came home from work and had this plastered all over their TVs.

Which is why I point out pre-Bronco chase Q rating.

That said, you also make a good point that with such a "smash opening", it was hard for all people to not pay that a ton of attention afterwards. The Spector trial didn't have that kind of outlandish beginning.

And that alone can show why this is not a race thing, but an awareness thing. Not saying race doesn't have its role in OJ--race is absolutely key. But Axxon's assertions are, IMO, ridiculous.

BTW, I have posted a poll to see what the "general public" of FOFC thinks about the relatively popularity/fame of some of those mentioned here.

http://operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=69428

[Buccaneer]

Heh, sorry for messing up that last sentence. I would say that 99.9% of the general population only knows Spector solely from that goofy wig he wore during the hearing. Matt is right. How can someone who had been a recluse for 30 years even begin to compare to someone who had been a cultural and sports icon for those 30 years? And I would still say that during that late 1960s, OJ was just as, if not more, famous than Spector (but Lennon trumped both).

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Carrot Top has a higher Q rating than Phil Spector, too.

But this all goes to amount of Q rating too. Even if OJ, due to his Naked Gun masterpieces was not so far ahead of Spector on that scale that he gets a free pass for murder where OJ has people hating him for life. There's not that much difference there even if you were right about OJ being better known, which I'm not granting at all.

During the late 60's early 70's music was far more popular than televsion and sports. TV and sports were just making their plunge into living rooms while everyone had a radio and music was defining the very culture. People knew the movers and shakers in the music industry. It was the rise of the super groups and if you think a football player had juice ( pun intended ) think about the Beatles, whom Spector worked with and how their entire lives and works were. Hell, I'm betting more people knew who Brian Epstein was in '67 than who won the college football national championship and I know the answer to both.

I'd still bet without using google, even today more people would know who Brian was than who won that championship.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Which is why I point out pre-Bronco chase Q rating.

That said, you also make a good point that with such a "smash opening", it was hard for all people to not pay that a ton of attention afterwards. The Spector trial didn't have that kind of outlandish beginning.

And that alone can show why this is not a race thing, but an awareness thing. Not saying race doesn't have its role in OJ--race is absolutely key. But Axxon's assertions are, IMO, ridiculous.

BTW, I have posted a poll to see what the "general public" of FOFC thinks about the relatively popularity/fame of some of those mentioned here.

http://operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=69428

Yes, a football message board is going to really be impartial about who is more famous, a football player or a musician.


[edited to add]

I voted OJ current and no one as my two choices in your poll.


Clearly OJ is more known now as he is a black guy who murdered a white woman and that trumps national titles or the Beatles.

That's tongue in cheek but I had to post it anyway.

[second edit] I didn't know these changed quoted stuff.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Heh, sorry for messing up that last sentence. I would say that 99.9% of the general population only knows Spector solely from that goofy wig he wore during the hearing. Matt is right. How can someone who had been a recluse for 30 years even begin to compare to someone who had been a cultural and sports icon for those 30 years? And I would still say that during that late 1960s, OJ was just as, if not more, famous than Spector (but Lennon trumped both).

Not if you grew up on the east coast. SHURG.

I personally don't consider current buzz = to celebrity fame. I think that's the cruz of it. I consider Jimmy Stewart more famous than Carrot Top even though he hasn't worked in years and doesn't have the current buzz. Hell, Greta Garbo became even more famous because she became a recluse.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Axxon

But this all goes to amount of Q rating too. Even if OJ, due to his Naked Gun masterpieces was not so far ahead of Spector on that scale that he gets a free pass for murder where OJ has people hating him for life. There's not that much difference there even if you were right about OJ being better known, which I'm not granting at all.

During the late 60's early 70's music was far more popular than televsion and sports. TV and sports were just making their plunge into living rooms while everyone had a radio and music was defining the very culture. People knew the movers and shakers in the music industry. It was the rise of the super groups and if you think a football player had juice ( pun intended ) think about the Beatles, whom Spector worked with and how their entire lives and works were. Hell, I'm betting more people knew who Brian Epstein was in '67 than who won the college football national championship and I know the answer to both.

I'd still bet without using google, even today more people would know who Brian was than who won that championship.

I don't know who Brian Epstien is, nor do I know who won the college football championship, although I can make a reasonable guess (Alabama, Notre Dame, Michigan State or USC?)--but at least I can make a reasonable guess on the latter. Is Brian related to Theo?

The point is, it's 2008. It's not 1967. I think that's where your argument really loses its punch.

And, BTW, not to throw it back at ya, but anecdotal evidence != data.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Axxon

Not if you grew up on the east coast. SHURG.

I personally don't consider current buzz = to celebrity fame. I think that's the cruz of it. I consider Jimmy Stewart more famous than Carrot Top even though he hasn't worked in years and doesn't have the current buzz. Hell, Greta Garbo became even more famous because she became a recluse.

Jimmy Stewart still has a higher Q rating than Carrot Top, so that doesn't make your argument too well.

And Garbo is, once again, that anecdotal evidence, you speak of (and, I think she and Carrot Top are probably about comparable).

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Axxon

Yes, a football message board is going to really be impartial about who is more famous, a football player or a musician.


[edited to add]

I voted OJ current and no one as my two choices in your poll.


Clearly OJ is more known now as he is a black guy who murdered a white woman and that trumps national titles or the Beatles.

That's tongue in cheek but I had to post it anyway.

Got it, we're all just football-centric morons here who follow and know nothing else whatsoever. Glad you're here to enlighten us all.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Jimmy Stewart still has a higher Q rating than Carrot Top, so that doesn't make your argument too well.

And Garbo is, once again, that anecdotal evidence, you speak of (and, I think she and Carrot Top are probably about comparable).

Well, all of this is anectdotal.

Is there a formula I can check out about this Q rating. It occured to me I'm not arguing that particular rating because I don't have a clue how it's made up though I understand what it measures ( I think ). If I knew what you were referencing I might have to agree. We may not be talking the same thing.

I don't think Garbo and Carrot Top are even close to comparable. In 1999 she was voted 5th greatest female star of all time by the AFI. I can't see Mr Top getting an honor like that.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Got it, we're all just football-centric morons here who follow and know nothing else whatsoever. Glad you're here to enlighten us all.

Not sure if you missed the or even if you did, what in that particular post set that off. Because you're more familiar with one thing than another doesn't make you a moron and I like football just as much as music and I don't consider myself a moron. I bet you ask your question on a music board and Spector wins, you ask on a football board and OJ wins. Ask on a sewing board or a bungee jumping board and the results would be more interesting.

[Logan]

Axxon, you lost this one, give it up. There's maybe 10 people in my life who I think would know what Phil Spector achieved during his lifetime. The behind-the-scenes aspect of it is huge and is something you're not understanding. Steven Spielberg, while technically a behind the scenes guy, is really not so because of all the interviews, red carpets, awards, etc.

I know who Milli Vanilli is, but I don't know the guys they were lipsynching

[Pumpy Tudors]

I like anecdotal evidence. Here's some:

I didn't know who Phil Spector was until I heard Richard Cheese's version of "Been Caught Stealing." He made a Phil Spector reference, and then I had to look up Phil Spector on the internet to find out who Richard Cheese was talking about. This was about a year and a half ago.

[Logan]

Keep your Dick Cheese out of this thread.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Axxon

Not sure if you missed the or even if you did, what in that particular post set that off. Because you're more familiar with one thing than another doesn't make you a moron and I like football just as much as music and I don't consider myself a moron. I bet you ask your question on a music board and Spector wins, you ask on a football board and OJ wins. Ask on a sewing board or a bungee jumping board and the results would be more interesting.

Well, the shows up in the post I quoted, because it goes on that point of time of post when it shows that, but when I responded, you hadn't edited it and only had the first line in your post, no smilie present whatsoever.

I'll take your general point given here that it's certainly not a scientific poll, nor is this the best place to post it.

As for what set it off, well, that first sentence doesn't exactly put football fans in a good light, does it?

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Logan

Axxon, you lost this one, give it up. There's maybe 10 people in my life who I think would know what Phil Spector achieved during his lifetime. The behind-the-scenes aspect of it is huge and is something you're not understanding. Steven Spielberg, while technically a behind the scenes guy, is really not so because of all the interviews, red carpets, awards, etc.

I know who Milli Vanilli is, but I don't know the guys they were lipsynching

Ok, then someone tell me when you are famous enough to be hated for being a murderer. You've all twisted the point. Three very famous people have committed murder and gotten away with it. Two of them are white. One is black. Only the black one draws the ire. You say it's not because he's black, it's because he's more famous than them.

I either call massive bullshit or tell me what the line is before committing murder and getting away with it is a bad thing.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Well, the shows up in the post I quoted, because it goes on that point of time of post when it shows that, but when I responded, you hadn't edited it and only had the first line in your post, no smilie present whatsoever.

I'll take your general point given here that it's certainly not a scientific poll, nor is this the best place to post it.

As for what set it off, well, that first sentence doesn't exactly put football fans in a good light, does it?

When I reread it, I'll give you that but I'm too big of a football fan to paint all fans with that brush.

[Sweed]

I'm 49 years old and grew up in the 60's and 70's. These are some of the performers I knew...
Elvis
The Beatles
The Rolling Stones
Creedence Clearwater Revival
Diana Ross andThe Supremes
Stevie Wonder
Johnny Cash
Jimmy Hendricks
Earth Wind and Fire
and the list goes on and on..

Phil Spectre? Uh, no.
I do feel the same about his as I do OJ though. Both deserve to rot in prison first and hell second.

I will say though I personally care more about OJ because I rooted for him. I remember when he was chasing 2,000 yards getting up knowing the Bills-Jets game was going to be on. Been along time but as I recall he needed 220 some yards to get the record and we were hoping he would do it. Turned on tv and it was snowing and bad weather we thought this would probably work against him and he wouldn't get there. We cheered every time he got closer and closer and when he broke it we were thrilled to see it happen. So, yeah not Buffalo fans but huge fans of The Juice. And when someone like that lets you down, even though you don't know them, it is more personal.

Now look at the Spectre case and imagine it was Paul McCartney.
Don't you think there would be the same outrage? Or maybe we should say Ringo Starr? More comparable to OJ then McCartney in that he was very famous but his star has certainly faded. IMHO the same "rich\famous" guy bought his way out of it as there is with OJ.

I don't deny there is race involved with the OJ case but it's not involved for all of us. To me, and the ones I talked to, it was that he was able to use his fame and money to get away with it.

The one thing I don't understand about OJ or Spectre is how any jury couldn't find them guilty.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Sweed

I don't deny there is race involved with the OJ case but it's not involved for all of us. To me, and the ones I talked to, it was that he was able to use his fame and money to get away with it.

The one thing I don't understand about OJ or Spectre is how any jury couldn't find them guilty.

But Sweed, Blake and Spector all used their fame and money to get away with it but only one of them is black. Only one of them prompts the outrage. Guess which one?

I'm being told it's because his fame passed a certain threshold and I'm curious what that threshold is.

I'm not accusing individual people with overt racism. I really don't think most people think like that but the group culture thinking and the mob reaction are clearly real and the reality is people as a whole made a judgement in three pretty similar situations that the black criminal deserves worse than the white ones. That's what I'm saying.

[kcchief19]

FWIW, I think everyone in this thread is both right and both wrong at the same time. Everyone seems to be assuming that race, popularity and fame are mutually exclusive when obviously they are not.

Why do people get more worked up over OJ than Specter and Blake? There are a lot of reasons -- and some of the reasons have multiple facets to it. The problem is that a lot of people seem to be tied to only their belief and can't see the logic of any other opinion than their own.

Some people fixate on OJ simply because he is the most famous accused murder in modern American history. Others fixate on him because he was extremely well liked and many people felt sympathy, betrayal or even both. And some people fixate on him because of race -- whether it's because they are black and feel he got jobbed or they are another race and are prejudiced.

I've known people that fill all these descriptions and more. If you think that the OJ case is exclusively about fame, popularity or race, you're being naive. Just because race or fame don't play a role in your mind doesn't mean it doesn't play a role in someone else's mind.

[Axxon]

Legal experts said the hung jury, coming after 5 1/2 months of trial and 12 days of deliberation, demonstrated the power of wealth, and to a lesser extent, celebrity, in California courts.

“Money makes a difference. This comes down much more to money than fame,” Loyola law professor Laurie Levenson said.

hxxp://articles.latimes.com/2007/sep/27/local/me-spector27

Spector case raises issues of fame, resources in celebrity trials

LINDA DEUTSCH AP Special Correspondent

(AP) - LOS ANGELES-O.J. Simpson, Michael Jackson, Robert Blake and now Phil Spector.

How come prosecutors in Southern California cannot seem to convict celebrities of serious crimes?

Some legal experts say it's not that jurors in Hollywood's backyard are starstruck.

Instead, they say, the verdicts - or in Spector's case, the hung jury - have more to do with weaknesses in the prosecution's evidence, and the vast ability of the rich and famous to hire the finest legal and forensic talent.

"I don't think it's universally true, but it may be as difficult to put a multimillionaire in prison as it is to put a camel through the eye of a needle," Loyola University law professor Stan Goldman said a day after a mistrial was declared in Spector's murder case.

Fellow Loyola law professor Laurie Levenson said of the Spector case: "People who don't know very much about the case will call it a celebrity verdict. It's not. It was about questions the jury didn't get answered. And it was also about resources."...

hxxp://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:WJDll8f6sw4J:news.public.findlaw.com/ap/o/51/09-28-2007/8bbc00200934896f.html+phil+spector+fame+and+wealth&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=29&gl=us

Ok, so some feel Spector was enough of a celebrity it helped him get his mistrial. So, maybe he wasn't as well known as OJ but it sure looks like, just like OJ it helped him. So, why the lack of outrage?

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Axxon

But Sweed, Blake and Spector all used their fame and money to get away with it but only one of them is black. Only one of them prompts the outrage. Guess which one?

I'm being told it's because his fame passed a certain threshold and I'm curious what that threshold is.

I'm not accusing individual people with overt racism. I really don't think most people think like that but the group culture thinking and the mob reaction are clearly real and the reality is people as a whole made a judgement in three pretty similar situations that the black criminal deserves worse than the white ones. That's what I'm saying.

And people are responding that it was mostly about the fame of those involved, the controversy within the trial itself, the outlandish aspects of the events leading up to that trial, and it was also the first trial of its kind in the current media environment (extreme over-saturation).

No one is saying race didn't play a role in the OJ trial itself. That would be stupid; it obviously did. But to suggest that race is the reason for the hate on OJ, as opposed to the combination of the above with the results of that trial is just out of touch.

For me personally, it's about knowledge of the trial. I followed the OJ trial (hell, how could anyone not, it was everywhere), so I am familiar with the facts discussed in the case. On top of that, OJ has his "search for the real killers" line and the "If I did it" book, and we have 15 years of buildup on that--all ont op of his most recent run in with the law. Oh yeah, and he was also found liable in the civil trial, a liability against his current wealth he has been avoiding through exemptions and what not since the civil trial verdict was handed down. Here's a guy who got away with murder and then threw it in the world's face, more or less.

Spector and Blake? Frankly, I don't know much about their trials. I couldn't have cared less before. They weren't people I felt were important enough for me to invest my limited time following their trials or finding out the details. I would guess this has been the way of it for most people. The coverage of OJ ensured that we all followed it and were aware of the trial details and were rightfully outraged at the verdict. The lack of same coverage for the other two means only people such as yourself who followed those trials are actually outraged by the results. I am sure if I now go look at these trial details, I would probably be as outraged with them as I am with OJ. But the fact is, the general public aren't anywhere near as familiar, and frankly, those defendants aren't as "important" or noteworthy to them to bother.

Thence, the outrage over OJ, but not for Spector and Blake (or not nearly as much). It's not a race thing, it's a fame/media coverage thing.

The best point made in this thread was made by someone (I forget who) who pointed out that there are likely thousands of black criminals who have gotten away with grievous crimes or pleaded down to lesser crimes whom deserve even more outrage than OJ/Spector/Blake/any of them. But we don't follow them, don't know them, don't care. And that goes the same for white criminals who get away with the same.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Axxon

But Sweed, Blake and Spector all used their fame and money to get away with it but only one of them is black. Only one of them prompts the outrage. Guess which one?

I'm being told it's because his fame passed a certain threshold and I'm curious what that threshold is.

I'm not accusing individual people with overt racism. I really don't think most people think like that but the group culture thinking and the mob reaction are clearly real and the reality is people as a whole made a judgement in three pretty similar situations that the black criminal deserves worse than the white ones. That's what I'm saying.

Originally Posted by Sweed

Phil Spectre? Uh, no.
I do feel the same about his as I do OJ though. Both deserve to rot in prison first and hell second.

I will say though I personally care more about OJ because I rooted for him. I remember when he was chasing 2,000 yards getting up knowing the Bills-Jets game was going to be on. Been along time but as I recall he needed 220 some yards to get the record and we were hoping he would do it. Turned on tv and it was snowing and bad weather we thought this would probably work against him and he wouldn't get there. We cheered every time he got closer and closer and when he broke it we were thrilled to see it happen. So, yeah not Buffalo fans but huge fans of The Juice. And when someone like that lets you down, even though you don't know them, it is more personal.

This paragraph explains why OJ means more to me than Spectre or Blake.

I responded more because you are equating Spectre with OJ on a "being famous" basis. To me this just isn't true. To me Spectre getting away with it, without tv coverage, is no different than any random stranger getting away with it, white or black. I don't like it and I'm angry about it but I don't have any real personal feelings about the situation. I do with OJ as I would if it were Paul McCartney or Ringo Starr because I invested my time in supporting and enjoying their work.

[CU Tiger]

- I don't know if OJ is guilty or not, I feel that he probably is; but he has every right to be free because the US Justice system acquitted him. i'm not ready to let public opinion decide that fate.

- To this day I cant tell you who phil specter is, except that he killed someone. I remember Yahooing him (bbefore google claimed me) when his murder came about and promptly forgot who he was. Im 30 FWIW

- I think the Bronco chase, the then current political and cultural climate (fresh off the riots) his celebrity and race all paly into people's passion

- I find it fascinating to this day the near 50/50 spilt on his guilt that is damn near 100% tied to race lines

- I think his character, which played to be very loveable and child endearing in his movie and promotional roles further added to the shock.

- I think the brutality of a double stabbing, slashing, and cutting adds to the distaste of many

- Finally I think his smug and combatitive nature along with the amount of cash he dropped on his defense hurts his image.

All that said, I think he is one of the dumbest individuals in the world. After that decision he has repeatedly pulled bone head moves and kept himself in the lime light.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

- I find it fascinating to this day the near 50/50 spilt on his guilt that is damn near 100% tied to race lines

I wonder how the math on that works, exactly.

[illinifan999]

I'm sorry did Phil Specter or Robert Blake write a "hypothetical" book about if they had murdered their victims?

[molson]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

The best point made in this thread was made by someone (I forget who) who pointed out that there are likely thousands of black criminals who have gotten away with grievous crimes or pleaded down to lesser crimes whom deserve even more outrage than OJ/Spector/Blake/any of them. But we don't follow them, don't know them, don't care. And that goes the same for white criminals who get away with the same.

I make one good point in my time at FOFC and you can't even remember it was me? (I'm apparently a whore for credit).

It's kind of interesting that we now have OJ backlash backlash.

For what it's worth, looking at the crimes and not fame, I'd say Blake is the worst of those three, then OJ, then Spector. Blake planned out the murder of his wife, OJ just lost it, and Spector's just insane. So ya, I absolutely think Blake getting off was the biggest injustice. OJ gets on my nerve because of the history of domestic violence which he seems to get a pass on until he actually upped the ante to murder (he was still a beloved public figure even after the domestic violence conviction). And of the three, I'm far most interested in the OJ story, because he's the only one I had heard of before their respective crimes.

The racial split on whether OJ did it is fascinating as well. I've always wondered - to what degree do these blacks TRULY believe OJ's innocent, or is there some kind of exhilaration that comes with "winning" that one, after centuries of black people being wrongfully convicted, and being victims of other injustices. Here, in this one exciting moment, a black jury and a black man made the (hated) LAPD look awful, and got away with murder. A huge amount of power exerted by a race who has been on the wrong side of power in this country forever. I can kind of understand that excitement, but the only time I've ever heard it expressed is by black comedians.

[Grammaticus]

Well, FWIW Jayson Williams is a high profile black ex-NBA star who went through a trial accused of killing his limo driver.

Quoted from a Wiki article:
"He was acquitted of the most serious charges against him, but the jury deadlocked on a charge of reckless manslaughter, and he currently faces a retrial on that charge. He also faces trial on four charges related to his alleged attempts to cover up the circumstances of the driver's death."

Nobody really seems to care that much about him. He lost his sports analyst job at NBC. But, so far has gotten away with killing someone and covering it up.

His case kind of puts a bit of doubt on your theory it is all about race when it comes to high profile black suspects. He even did all kinds of things to cover up the killing, like wiping down the shotgun and jumping in a pool to conceal evidence. Then he tried to make it look like a suicide.

Williams' legal team is trying to make something of a racial slur from a police officer in the case. Not sure what that really has to do with it in a material sense or if it will amount to anything. At the end of the day, nobody really cares much about this.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Grammaticus

Nobody really seems to care that much about him. He lost his sports analyst job at NBC. But, so far has gotten away with killing someone and covering it up.

His case kind of puts a bit of doubt on your theory it is all about race when it comes to high profile black suspects. He even did all kinds of things to cover up the killing, like wiping down the shotgun and jumping in a pool to conceal evidence. Then he tried to make it look like a suicide.

Williams' legal team is trying to make something of a racial slur from a police officer in the case. Not sure what that really has to do with it in a material sense or if it will amount to anything. At the end of the day, nobody really cares much about this.

1. OJ is way, way more famous
2. Williams killed the guy by accident.

[Crim]

Originally Posted by Axxon

I do challenge it and it'd be just as easy to consider you the one out of touch. Let's face it Rum. you do realize that Spielberg was never a performer, right? So, like I said, using your logic, Olson is more famous than Spielberg. It's not true of course and more people are music fans than sports fans. If you're trying to say OJ is more famous on a football board I'd agree but to the general public, pre the super trial, OJ had at best a reputation for being the guy in the Naked Gun movies. B list celebrity at best if you're not a football fan.

Axxon, I could not disagree more with this assertion. That's like saying the only people who could pick Tiger Woods out of a lineup are golf fans. OJ was huuuuge. And I never got to see him play in the pros, much less in college.

Phil Spector? The guy was really just a familiar name to me. I had no idea what he looked like, or exactly why I recognized his name when that went down.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by Axxon

Ok, so some feel Spector was enough of a celebrity it helped him get his mistrial. So, maybe he wasn't as well known as OJ but it sure looks like, just like OJ it helped him. So, why the lack of outrage?

At the time of their respective trials, OJ was about 100 times more well known than Spector. But that's not what caused the difference in the reactions to the two trials.

What causes the outrage in the OJ trial is that a TON of people watched day after day after day of the trial and saw all of the evidence. We saw the bloody gloves, the photos, the footprints match his shoes, etc - not to mention the white Bronco chase. We watched and formed opinions on his guilt or innocence. Because of that, the jury's verdict was surprising and hard to believe to many who think he did it. BASED ON THE EVIDENCE THAT PEOPLE SAW ON TV, many people believe he got away with murder.

In contrast to that, pretty much no one watched the Spector trial. I have no idea of any of the circumstances or evidence presented. I have no idea if he did it or not and therefore no opinion on whether he should rot in jail or not.

[Crim]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

... while OJ Simpson was quite generally well-known and famous.

...and generally well-liked, as well. The guy had charisma and a ready smile. America thought it knew OJ.

Spector was at best a name - no personality that I'm aware of, no commericals, no talk show appearances that I'm aware of, etc.

[Crim]

Originally Posted by Sweed

Now look at the Spectre case and imagine it was Paul McCartney.
Don't you think there would be the same outrage?

Unless he'd killed Heather Mills. There'd be much rejoicing in the streets.

[Crim]

Originally Posted by Axxon

I'm not accusing individual people with overt racism.

Remember, though, all the national polls at the time leading up to the verdict, that showed almost every white person in America thinks OJ's guilty, and almost every black person in America thinks he's innocent? Hyperbole, I know, but I don't have time to look up the numbers now.

Anyway, I never denied that race played a role in the circus the trial became, but I do contend that white or black, it would have been a huge event because of who OJ was, and not solely because he's black and Nicole was a smokin hot white woman.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Axxon

But Sweed, Blake and Spector all used their fame and money to get away with it but only one of them is black. Only one of them prompts the outrage. Guess which one?

I'm being told it's because his fame passed a certain threshold and I'm curious what that threshold is.

I'm not accusing individual people with overt racism. I really don't think most people think like that but the group culture thinking and the mob reaction are clearly real and the reality is people as a whole made a judgement in three pretty similar situations that the black criminal deserves worse than the white ones. That's what I'm saying.

+1

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

The insinuation that these three cases are at all even in the same ballpark is laughable.

And yes, if these others get arrested for something later and put away, I will again think "justice is served."

[Phototropic]

Originally Posted by KWhit

At the time of their respective trials, OJ was about 100 times more well known than Spector. But that's not what caused the difference in the reactions to the two trials.

What causes the outrage in the OJ trial is that a TON of people watched day after day after day of the trial and saw all of the evidence. We saw the bloody gloves, the photos, the footprints match his shoes, etc - not to mention the white Bronco chase. We watched and formed opinions on his guilt or innocence. Because of that, the jury's verdict was surprising and hard to believe to many who think he did it. BASED ON THE EVIDENCE THAT PEOPLE SAW ON TV, many people believe he got away with murder.

In contrast to that, pretty much no one watched the Spector trial. I have no idea of any of the circumstances or evidence presented. I have no idea if he did it or not and therefore no opinion on whether he should rot in jail or not.

+1

I also know next to nothing about the Spector trial, but I spent what seemed like an entire summer vacation watching OJ.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Axxon

I really don't think most people think like that but the group culture thinking and the mob reaction are clearly real and the reality is people as a whole made a judgement in three pretty similar situations that the black criminal deserves worse than the white ones. That's what I'm saying.

Nobody has said anything about the "black criminal deserving worse than the white one". Nobody here's defended any white murderers. There's more discussion about OJ because he's WAY more famous, and it's a much more compelling story. But the discussion isn't harsher, there's just way more of it.

The evidence is overwhelming. The OJ supporters are far more racist than the OJ detractors. We're not even allowed to hate wife-beating murderers without someone playing the race card. Everyone, regardless of race, is a monster if they beat the shit out of their wife and then kill them. Robert Blake is just as bad, and probably worse. He also hasn't been in the public eye since the SEVENTIES.

Do they OJ supporters even have a problem with his wife-beating (charges he didn't contest in court)?

I still think he's a hero because he "got on over on the white man". And attributing the OJ backlash to racism is like phase 2. It's just disgusting.

[Noop]

I think race is a factor the same way it was with Michael Vick. I believe it is naive to thing that racism doesn't exist on both sides of the spectrum. I don't know if O.J. did it but if he did then he deserves to go jail and put to death.

I think the media loves it when a black person does something because it further reinforces the stereotype.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by Noop

I think race is a factor the same way it was with Michael Vick. I believe it is naive to thing that racism doesn't exist on both sides of the spectrum. I don't know if O.J. did it but if he did then he deserves to go jail and put to death.

I think the media loves it when a black person does something because it further reinforces the stereotype.

The bolded part is exactly what other people are saying. The only difference is that - given the evidence that's been presented to them - they believe he did it. I don't see where race is an issue here.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

The bolded part is exactly what other people are saying. The only difference is that - given the evidence that's been presented to them - they believe he did it. I don't see where race is an issue here.

He was found not guilty.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by Noop

He was found not guilty.

Yet even you say that you "don't know if he did it." So if the verdict doesn't convince you - someone who didn't follow the trial - that he didn't do it, why should it convince someone who did follow the trial?

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Noop

He was found not guilty.

I wasn't one of those 12, and since I'm just a random schmuck, I don't have to abide by that silly "innocent until proven guilty" thing.

[Dutch]

Way back in the day....I left work at about 8PM (and my work was right next to the 405). There were about 15 helicopters flying overhead following OJ.

I raced home, cracked open a beer, and watched the rest of the "show". I've been hooked to high-speed car pursuits ever since (not that I get to see them over here...)

All in all, it was all very surreal.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Originally Posted by Noop

He was found not guilty.

So you feel that the general public must consider innocent the men who were acquitted for the murder of Emmitt Till, or countless other whites who were acquitted by all-white juries during the civil rights movement?

The point is that our judicial system can be flawed, and nothing compels you to abide by it in your opinion of that person.

[illinifan999]

Originally Posted by Noop

He was found not guilty.

Not guilty does not equal innocent.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

So you feel that the general public must consider innocent the men who were acquitted for the murder of Emmitt Till, or countless other whites who were acquitted by all-white juries during the civil rights movement?

The point is that our judicial system can be flawed, and nothing compels you to abide by it in your opinion of that person.

Yup. On the flip side, there are many young black men in jail for being guilty of being a young black male.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

So you feel that the general public must consider innocent the men who were acquitted for the murder of Emmitt Till, or countless other whites who were acquitted by all-white juries during the civil rights movement?

The point is that our judicial system can be flawed, and nothing compels you to abide by it in your opinion of that person.

Good point. However my original premise was meant to note that people seem interested in O.J. more so then other celebrity murderers. Those others celebrities to my knowledge didn't have to pay the family of the victim.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Noop

I think race is a factor the same way it was with Michael Vick. I believe it is naive to thing that racism doesn't exist on both sides of the spectrum. I don't know if O.J. did it but if he did then he deserves to go jail and put to death.

I think the media loves it when a black person does something because it further reinforces the stereotype.

Yeah, it is kind of like how the media loves to report on Al Sharpton showing outrage against his latest white target, but never reports when he protests against black targets (gangsta rap, black homophobia, etc).

Anyway, of course race does play a role in people's perceptions of the OJ case. But, issues of class are once again duly ignored. Many white folks probably assume that OJ got acquitted because racist black jury members would never convict their hero OJ; while many black people may assume that OJ did not get a fair shake/was a victim of conspiracy because of his race.

Some of that may be true, but what seems more fundamental to me is that OJ had more money than most people, black or white, could even dream of having. Thus, he (and members of his social class) could afford legal representation not available to the riff raff.

Somewhat unrelated, but I'll say it anyway: not to sound conspiratorial, but I always thought that there is actually more common ground between poor white people and poor black people, but they always seem to more readily identify with rich people of their own race, many of whom would never give these people the time of day. I guess it might have something to do with the social-mobility ideal/semi-myth in this country, but I still find it curious that people are almost trained to find race more important than class...

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Originally Posted by Noop

Good point. However my original premise was meant to note that people seem interested in O.J. more so then other celebrity murderers. Those others celebrities to my knowledge didn't have to pay the family of the victim.

What other celebrity murderers had:

1. The profile in mass media (Heisman, Pro Football HOF, pitchman for nations #1 car rental company, bit parts in popular movies)

2. The eye-catching arrest (the White Bronco)

3. A trial that was seemingly all that was on TV for months and months?

The best we've come up with, which sparked the poll elsewhere, is a rock producer from the 60s who most couldn't pick out of a lineup before the murder, and a TV star from the seventies who was similarly obscure.