Iverson traded to...

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by Samdari

If they play AI at PG, I'd like to revise my estimate for how many games this cost them from 10/15 to 25/30. When he's at PG, he takes EVERY shot, and shoots about 30%. Its a disaster. Both teams that got him have tried him at PG, and quickly found out that a journeyman (Eric Snow or A Carter, take your pick) was a better PG than AI. Why would they think he's going to develop into a great PG now?

I don't think you understand what I'm saying - He won't play like a PG, but he will have to be at the PG position. Tayshaun can direct the offense as well as most PGs, so that's not an issue, and when Rip or AI aren't on the floor, Stuckey be the PG.

Honestly, I think you are being waaaay, over-the-top about the games they will give up because of this (25/30??? WTF??). I see them staying just about where they would have been before.

Anyway, we'll just have to see what happens.

[Schmidty]

Dola.

I meant "Tayshaun can direct the offense as well as most PGs, so that's not an issue, and when Rip or AI aren't on the floor, Stuckey be the PG."

[bosshogg23]

Maybe McDyess comes back, maybe not. Maybe this helps the team, maybe it hurts, we will know soon enough. My biggest question is still why now? This type of trade should have been made at least six weeks ago so both teams could have a preseason with their new players. Something had to change for one or both teams to agree to the deal now. It will be interesting in the morning to see what the local papers say happened behind the scenes to push this deal.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by bosshogg23

Maybe McDyess comes back, maybe not. Maybe this helps the team, maybe it hurts, we will know soon enough. My biggest question is still why now? This type of trade should have been made at least six weeks ago so both teams could have a preseason with their new players. Something had to change for one or both teams to agree to the deal now. It will be interesting in the morning to see what the local papers say happened behind the scenes to push this deal.

From what I've read the holdup was that Denver wanted Prince in the deal up until now.

[bulletsponge]

the most overrated star going to the most underachieving team.... yea this will work well

[Groundhog]

Wow.

If I were Detroit I wouldn't trade Billups to Denver for AI and three first rounders, let alone giving up McDyess (even if he ends up back in Detroit) for no picks.

I guess Detroit really didn't think they were a championship contender. They aren't now, either, but I guess this is all about the cap space.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by bulletsponge

the most overrated star going to the most underachieving team.... yea this will work well

The best thing is, that this could work for either player/team.

[TroyF]

Spectacular trade for Denver.

AI is a glorified SG. He got his assists because of one reason: he held the ball for a long period of time and passed it when he was tripled. AI may be one of the single worst pick and roll players I've ever seen. I mean, words can't express how bad he runs that play. (and Denver with Nene and Melo should be a great pick and roll team)

Billups gives something Denver hasn't had in years. A true PG who can shoot the basketball.

As for AI, I like the guy and he tries. . . . but he's not a PG. He's a SG who can't create for others consistently. He can score. During AI's time in Denver, George Karl never got it right. In the games where Melo ran the offense, the team was 10x better than when AI ran the offense. Whenever someone other than AI set up the offense, Denver was a much better offensive team.

If Detroit uses AI as a 15 minutes a night PG and 25 minutes a night at the SG slot, they'll be much happier with his stint at SG. If they let him set up the offense 50% of the time, they'll regret having him and their offense will become stagnent.

Denver is a better team today than they were yesterday.

[bosshogg23]

Detroit just used up some of the cap room by giving Richard Hamilton a 3 year 34 million dollar contract. Full guarantee on the first 2 years, partial on the 3rd.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by bosshogg23

Detroit just used up some of the cap room by giving Richard Hamilton a 3 year 34 million dollar contract. Full guarantee on the first 2 years, partial on the 3rd.

WTF!?!?!?!?!?

[Rich1033]

RIP could opt out and they didnt want him to.

Denver is a better team for this year and maybe next, so good deal for them. Detroit is not a better team, but they are not really worse either. However, they do now have a chance to really improve next season and beyond.

One of those deals that will work out for both teams.

[DeToxRox]

My guess on that Rip deal is Rip will move to the bench, Stuckey at the 1, AI at the 2 and Tay at the 3. Rip will be instant offense and still play 30 minutes a game, but now gets paid regardless of his role.

Detroit needed this deal with AI. For one, people aren't going to the Palace. There were a crapload of empty seats the last two games, and this is a problem dating back to last year. AI will put people in the seats.

Also, Detroit is complacent. AI wants a title, so at least he can provide a spark in that regard.

Finally, I think Detroit has to make a splash this year in FA, and not in 2010. Detroit is not a desirable destination for guys like Bron or Wade or Kobe, because it isn't a big Media Market like Chicago, NY, LA. Those guys won't go to the midwest unless it's Chitown, and lots of big teams will have cap room in 2010 which could hurt Detroit.

This year, Detroit could get Boozer or the like, because they'll have a lot of cap room, and Detroit stacks up this year better then a team like Memphis with their cap situation. So we'll see what happens.

[Groundhog]

No way does Rip go to the bench? Surely he'd start over Stuckey, with AI at the 1 spot?

Boozer to Pistons is a good prediction, though I'm thinking he'd be better served teaming up with Deron for the foreseeable future. However, as a Cavs fan, it wouldn't surprise me to see him bolt the Jazz...

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

No way does Rip go to the bench? Surely he'd start over Stuckey, with AI at the 1 spot?

Boozer to Pistons is a good prediction, though I'm thinking he'd be better served teaming up with Deron for the foreseeable future. However, as a Cavs fan, it wouldn't surprise me to see him bolt the Jazz...

Dumars LOVES Stuckey. Absolutely loves him. He thinks he is the PG of the future and they want him playing 30 minutes a night. I think Stuck is damn good, but I am not sold he is a legit PG. Regardless, they're going to give him every shot, which is why I am guessing he will play the 1.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Dumars LOVES Stuckey. Absolutely loves him. He thinks he is the PG of the future and they want him playing 30 minutes a night. I think Stuck is damn good, but I am not sold he is a legit PG. Regardless, they're going to give him every shot, which is why I am guessing he will play the 1.

I agree with you on Stuckey. I think he is a solid young prospect and he impressed me in the playoffs especially, but I'm not sure if he's a PG. He has the look of a young Billups which is I'm sure what Dumars is banking on, but still, quite a risk given the talent of Billups.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

I agree with you on Stuckey. I think he is a solid young prospect and he impressed me in the playoffs especially, but I'm not sure if he's a PG. He has the look of a young Billups which is I'm sure what Dumars is banking on, but still, quite a risk given the talent of Billups.

I think it's part of the reason Curry was named coach. He is going to play Joe's puppet, but he does know the game and the guys respect him. His offense is heavy on everyone being able to handle the ball, so really a true PG isn't needed in that sense.

Billups just made sense. He had to be the one to go. Too cumbersome a contract and he stood in the way of Stuckey.

We'll see what happens though.

It still is the East and with AI Detroit can still win the Central, and if we get bounced in the 2nd or 3rd round again, it's what I expected anyway going into the year.

[law90026]

Interesting read, if true, then Detroit has a plan. Damn, the Bulls may be screwed.

Pistons get Iverson now, LeBron later? - NBA - Yahoo! Sports

[adubroff]

This is a better deal for Detroit than Denver. I wouldn't have wanted to have that much money committed to Billups. I'm not sure what AI will do with their chemistry but most of what you heard outta Denver was positive. I have always maintained that he needed to be put on the floor with a Tasyhaun Prince type player (big body so AI doesn't have to defend scary twos, can get him the ball). I think on paper it could work, but realistically most people thought Detroit was taking a step back this year anyway. I do know that AI will play hard and the last time he was paired with a strong defensive team he carried it to the finals. The league (and especially the conference) are different now and I'm not sure a repeat can occur, but it doesn't seem out of the question.

Long term, the idea of having the cash to sign Lebron (or Wade/Bosh/etc), seems a good one if you're not going to win this year and this made that more possible.

[stevew]

Dumars has been after AI forever. It seems more likely they'll keep him past this year.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by stevew

Dumars has been after AI forever. It seems more likely they'll keep him past this year.

Doubtful. Not with Stuckey and Rip under contract. I might buy it if Tayshaun gets traded but it's doubtful. Like I said earlier, Stuckey is Dumars lovechild. He is going to make sure nothing is in his way to play 30 + minutes a night, and with Rip locked up long term, there is no way AI will resign to be in a limited role.

Joe might sign him if AI will take below his market, but is AI going to take a deal below market?

No chance.

[law90026]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Joe might sign him if AI will take below his market, but is AI going to take a deal below market?

No chance.

Might depend on whether AI wants to win or whether he still wants to make money (which he should have tons of by now by all accounts). If Dumars can sell AI on the idea that there will be a super team in 2010 (LeBron, Hamilton, Prince), AI might bite if he wants to win a title.

[MrBug708]

What's the deal with Afflalo? Does he have a future in Detroit?

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

What's the deal with Afflalo? Does he have a future in Detroit?

He is going to be a role player for the Pistons. He was awesome in the preseason and seemed to earn some PT, but we'll see how the rotation plays out. He will be used at PG, SG and SF depending on if the Pistons go small or not.

So far this year he has played 14 minutes vs Indy, 4 minutes vs the Wizards and 18 tonight vs the Bobcats. His problem is he has gotten 3 fouls in 2 of the 3 games.

So I think he has a future as a 7th or 8th man, with the possibility of an expanded role in the future if he develops his offensive game.

[Chubby]

Lebron in Detroit? Hahahahaha umm ok

[stevew]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Doubtful. Not with Stuckey and Rip under contract. I might buy it if Tayshaun gets traded but it's doubtful. Like I said earlier, Stuckey is Dumars lovechild. He is going to make sure nothing is in his way to play 30 + minutes a night, and with Rip locked up long term, there is no way AI will resign to be in a limited role.

Joe might sign him if AI will take below his market, but is AI going to take a deal below market?

No chance.

AI's probably up for a rude awakening if he thinks his market value is much more than 10m/season on a 3 year deal.

If Matt Geiger wasn't such a douche, Iverson would have been on the Pistons back in 2000. I think he'll sign a decent deal this summer and stay with the team for the rest of his career.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by stevew

AI's probably up for a rude awakening if he thinks his market value is much more than 10m/season on a 3 year deal.

If Matt Geiger wasn't such a douche, Iverson would have been on the Pistons back in 2000. I think he'll sign a decent deal this summer and stay with the team for the rest of his career.

Agreed there. If it financially makes sense. But if he wants 13-14 mil a season, he will obviously be elsewhere.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by TroyF

If Detroit uses AI as a 15 minutes a night PG and 25 minutes a night at the SG slot, they'll be much happier with his stint at SG. If they let him set up the offense 50% of the time, they'll regret having him and their offense will become stagnent.

I don't see how adding AI could make Detroit's offense any more stagnent than it already was. Detroit runs two sets - the "Rip curl for a jumper" and "the 5 guys stand around the perimiter and jack up jumpers all day". Nobody creates, nobody drives - over 80% of Chauncey's shots last season were jumpers (Rip also had 80% of his shots as jumpers) There's little in the way of transition when Billups is running the point- it's just a stale offense and has been for years. Their scoring in the playoffs last year was pathetic. The only reason it didn't matter before was because they played their ass off on defense which again, they haven't done for years. I also don't think they're going to play AI 40 minutes. I would expect more around the 33-35 range until maybe the playoffs.

The Pistons needed a superstar, go to player and now they have one. I think Iverson, playing with a solid supporting cast and a chip on his shoulder, will be extremely productive for this season and gives us a better chance to get not only back to the ECF but to the Finals. I think it's a good trade for Denver too though - now just imagine if they hadn't given Camby away for nothing.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by Chubby

Lebron in Detroit? Hahahahaha umm ok

Depends what he wants - if its all about being in a major world market then Detroit stands no chance. If he wants to win Jordan-like numbers of championships then I would think the Pistons would be a great fit. They should have enough space to sign a decent player next offseason and then have the necessary space left in 2010 for LeBron (or maybe someone like Bosh).

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

I don't see how adding AI could make Detroit's offense any more stagnent than it already was. Detroit runs two sets - the "Rip curl for a jumper" and "the 5 guys stand around the perimiter and jack up jumpers all day". Nobody creates, nobody drives - over 80% of Chauncey's shots last season were jumpers (Rip also had 80% of his shots as jumpers) There's little in the way of transition when Billups is running the point- it's just a stale offense and has been for years. Their scoring in the playoffs last year was pathetic. The only reason it didn't matter before was because they played their ass off on defense which again, they haven't done for years. I also don't think they're going to play AI 40 minutes. I would expect more around the 33-35 range until maybe the playoffs.

The Pistons needed a superstar, go to player and now they have one. I think Iverson, playing with a solid supporting cast and a chip on his shoulder, will be extremely productive for this season and gives us a better chance to get not only back to the ECF but to the Finals. I think it's a good trade for Denver too though - now just imagine if they hadn't given Camby away for nothing.

1) Iverson had a chip on his shoulder when he came to Denver. He's a selfish basketball player. When Iverson had 6 or more assists in a game, Denver won 69% of their games last year. When he had 5 or less they sucked horribly. 6 assists isn't a big number with the way the Nuggets played last year. They played the second fastest pace in the league to GS. We were clearly a better team when AI passed the ball, yet he didn't do it. Go figure. At first I was pissed off at AI, but then I calmed down about him. He is what he is. I think he tries, he's just not a great guy at involving others. He's at his best with himself and four scrubs on the floor, where he can shoot, shoot, shoot.

2) Camby being gone is the best thing to happen to the Nuggets in years. The only problem is we don't know if Nene can stay healthy. If Nene is healthy, the Nuggets are a far better basketball team.

Last year the Nuggets played the Lakers 7 times including the playoff sweep. The Lakers never once shot under 46% from the floor. Three times, they shot over 50% from the floor. Camby played in every game. Why did they shoot so well if the messiah of defense is back there? A few reasons: 1) The Nuggets ridiculously small backcourt made it easy for Kobe. (Anthony Carter and Allen Iverson) 2) Camby doesn't play the pick and roll. Period. 3) Camby is a horrible man on man defender. He's a GREAT help defender. Maybe the best in basketball. But he freelanced more than anyone on the court.

Denver played the Lakers on Saturday night and held them to 38% shooting. How did they do it? simple. They stayed in front of their man, they forced tough shots. Nene dominated on the defensive end in man to man situations. (Bynum scored 4 points)

They lost the game for a few different reasons. The rebounding was bad. (but with Camby last year, the rebounding wasn't good, the Nuggets just don't match up that well with the Lakers size) The Lakers got a lot of FT attempts. 43 to be exact.

But the biggest reason the Nuggets lost the game is the offense stagnated. Carmelo, playing his first game from the suspension, struggled with his shot. (he had a sensational passing game however, the six assists don't tell the tail there) They couldn't get the ball into any kind of sets. Down the stretch, our offense was garbage.

Chauncey is going to improve the perimeter defense. He's going to run the offense and with him and JR starting and being able to drain threes, Melo and Nene will be freed up more inside. Chauncey can also run a successful pick and roll.

I'm not saying AI and Camby aren't good players. They each do amazing things and they are fun to watch. But after watching them play day in day out, I can tell you that the nationwide perception of the two players (as well as the Nuggets team) is wrong. I also understand this doesn't make the Nuggets some top 4 playoff contender in the West. They are better than the 10 place prediction most people had for them at the start of the year, but not so much better any of the contenders need to panic about them. Besides, this is the Nuggets. They haven't had the typical run of bad luck yet this year. Nene will go down for 50 games at some point.

But the one good thing for us is that we can rely on Dumars to help make us better. He took Darko instead of Melo, saving us Nuggets fans 4 years of a horrible Euro stiff. And now he sends Chauncey home and gives the organization one of their best PG's ever. Not that Detroit won't be better, they will. but they'd better limit AI's PG duties. Mark my words Gary, if they give him the reigns at the PG slot, they will regret it.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by TroyF

2) Camby being gone is the best thing to happen to the Nuggets in years. The only problem is we don't know if Nene can stay healthy. If Nene is healthy, the Nuggets are a far better basketball team.

Last year the Nuggets played the Lakers 7 times including the playoff sweep. The Lakers never once shot under 46% from the floor. Three times, they shot over 50% from the floor. Camby played in every game. Why did they shoot so well if the messiah of defense is back there? A few reasons: 1) The Nuggets ridiculously small backcourt made it easy for Kobe. (Anthony Carter and Allen Iverson) 2) Camby doesn't play the pick and roll. Period. 3) Camby is a horrible man on man defender. He's a GREAT help defender. Maybe the best in basketball. But he freelanced more than anyone on the court.

They lost the game for a few different reasons. The rebounding was bad. (but with Camby last year, the rebounding wasn't good, the Nuggets just don't match up that well with the Lakers size) The Lakers got a lot of FT attempts. 43 to be exact.

I guess if that's the opinion of fans in Denver that's fine but how does giving away the guy who lead the league in blocks and was second in rebounding make your rebounding or interior defense situation better? You really are going to prefer Nene - a guy who has played in 81 games...in the last three seasons combined and has never averaged more than 7 boards and 1 block in his best season while Camby has averaged more than 10 boards and 3 blocks per game since 2004. Camby is a 4 (6'11, 235) - of course he's going to struggle man on man in the post against someone the likes of Bynum who has 50 pounds on him or someone like Yao who has 75 pounds and 7 inches on him. I think you're right - you needed a different 5 but how does giving up Camby help that? Camby is like you said, an excellent help side defender/shot blocker, and he's a great rebounder (had 17 boards twice in the Lakers playoff series) so why not find a way to use that as an advantage and let him play the weaker offensive option of the 4/5 on the opponent and try to get another big man in there?

Originally Posted by TroyF

Chauncey is going to improve the perimeter defense.

I really hope you're not counting on this. Chauncey hasn't been a good perimeter defender since they changed the hand check rules. He's a big, strong guard - he can use that to his advantage offensively to post up smaller guards but on defense its a liability. Hell I was watching the Wizards game the other night and Juan Dixon was going by him with ease. Chauncey is going to help offensively to keep things more under control and to distribute the ball but unless the mountain air makes him quicker then he's not going to improve your perimeter defense.

Originally Posted by TroyF

But the one good thing for us is that we can rely on Dumars to help make us better.

I guess you better hope for that because Denver management certainly hasn't been able to do that. I have to wonder if you're going to like this deal as much in 2010 when you're paying a 35 year old Chauncey Billups 13.15 million to go along with Nene's 11.36 million, Kenyon Martin's 16.5 million (he would be stupid to opt out of his contract - he's not getting another paycheck like that) and of course Melo and his 17+ million. That's 58+ million on four players - one who will be 35 and two who will probably spend more time on the injured list than on the floor between now and then. That's not even counting whatever JR Smith is making then. Meanwhile the Pistons have their core group of Rip, Tayshaun, Stuckey, Amir and Maxiell plus a boatload of cap space for the next two years of an incredibly deep FA pool.

[DeToxRox]

I do think people here don't understand how bad Chauncey has gotten defensivley. Rondo took it to him in the ECF whenever he needed to. That was a second year guy on a 10 plus year vet. He is too bulky and lost his first step. He still is good but he lost a lot of his explosion.

[JeeberD]

It's like 2000 all over again! I wonder if the Nugs are going to bring back Nick the Brick, Raef, and Ron Mercer?

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

I don't think you understand what I'm saying - He won't play like a PG, but he will have to be at the PG position. Tayshaun can direct the offense as well as most PGs, so that's not an issue, and when Rip or AI aren't on the floor, Stuckey be the PG.

Honestly, I think you are being waaaay, over-the-top about the games they will give up because of this (25/30??? WTF??). I see them staying just about where they would have been before.

Anyway, we'll just have to see what happens.

I understand what you are saying. Someone has to BE the PG though. If AI is there its him. Tayshaun is a good ball handling and passing SF. Have him run the point and you'd see 12 turnovers a game. Prince cannot run a team as well as most PGs, and it most definitely is an issue.

If AI is the PG, then the Pistons are playing without one, and Detroit will not make the playoffs. I have seen enough of AI as PG to stand behind the 20-25 games worse prediction.

Philadelphia decided Eric Snow was a better PG than AI.

Denver decided Anthony Carter was a better PG than AI.

There is a reason for that. You cannot win games with AI (or noone) playing the PG position. Period. Every game he starts there, you lose.

The Pistons at least have something that Philly and Denver did not - a young talented PG to throw in there.

I am with Troy, as a Nuggets fan, I am ecstatic at this deal. And I think the Pistons are a far worse team for it.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

I do think people here don't understand how bad Chauncey has gotten defensivley. Rondo took it to him in the ECF whenever he needed to. That was a second year guy on a 10 plus year vet. He is too bulky and lost his first step. He still is good but he lost a lot of his explosion.

Even at that, he'll make the Nuggets better on defense right away, and AI will make the Pistons far worse.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by Samdari

If AI is the PG, then the Pistons are playing without one, and Detroit will not make the playoffs. I have seen enough of AI as PG to stand behind the 20-25 games worse prediction.

Come on, you cannot be serious. You're going to tell us that with a lineup of Iverson, Hamilton, Prince, Johnson, R. Wallace and Stuckey, Maxiell (and eventually probably McDyess) from the bench that they will win 34-39 games and finish 9th or worse in the conference? 37 wins was enough last year for Atlanta to make the playoffs in the juggernaut known as the East.

Tell me, how did Denver win 45 and 50 games when AI was playing the point at least some of the time and if he didn't play point that often then how can you have seen enough to say that running the point takes the Pistons from EC finalists to a lottery team?

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

Come on, you cannot be serious. You're going to tell us that with a lineup of Iverson, Hamilton, Prince, Johnson, R. Wallace and Stuckey, Maxiell (and eventually probably McDyess) from the bench that they will win 34-39 games and finish 9th or worse in the conference? 37 wins was enough last year for Atlanta to make the playoffs in the juggernaut known as the East.

Tell me, how did Denver win 45 and 50 games when AI was playing the point at least some of the time and if he didn't play point that often then how can you have seen enough to say that running the point takes the Pistons from EC finalists to a lottery team?

Philadelphia tried him at the point, and then moved him to avoid losing more games.

Denver tried him at the point and then moved him to avoid losing more games.

Everyone keeps asking me to defend my views without answering my question - do you think AI is suddenly going to develop into a team oriented, pass first PG? Do you think that he's suddenly going to be able to win games at that position?

How did Denver win 45 and 50 games? By moving him away from the point. Its terrible. It takes all flow away from the offense at all. He's not interested in nor good at running an offense, or learning where and when teammates like the ball to get shots. He's the rare player who makes everyone around him worse. You end up with 4 guys standing around watching for 20 seconds while AI dribbles around and then takes a bad shot. Or passes it to a stunned teammate with 1-2 seconds left on the clock and have said teammate take the bad shot.

For those of you impressed with the 7 assists, repeat the above bad pass scenario 20 times a game, make 30% of them, and you get 7 assists. You lose, but get 7 assists. He's not bad leading the break, so if you fast break a lot (as Denver did) you probably get a lot of assists that way.

OK, maybe in that conference, 20-25 games and out of the playoffs is not realistic. Mostly because I think they will not continue the "AI as starting PG" experiment beyond 10 games once they see it in action. If they do continue the insanity of AI as starting PG the rest of the season, yes, I think they'll be brutally bad. The lineup you list won't be as good as it sounds, as you don't have those players (Rip, Sheed, Prince) playing anywhere near their capabilities.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by Samdari

Philadelphia tried him at the point, and then moved him to avoid losing more games.

Denver tried him at the point and then moved him to avoid losing more games.

Everyone keeps asking me to defend my views without answering my question - do you think AI is suddenly going to develop into a team oriented, pass first PG? Do you think that he's suddenly going to be able to win games at that position?

How did Denver win 45 and 50 games? By moving him away from the point. Its terrible. It takes all flow away from the offense at all. He's not interested in nor good at running an offense, or learning where and when teammates like the ball to get shots. He's the rare player who makes everyone around him worse. You end up with 4 guys standing around watching for 20 seconds while AI dribbles around and then takes a bad shot. Or passes it to a stunned teammate with 1-2 seconds left on the clock and have said teammate take the bad shot.

Philadelphia had crap around him for most of his career there and surely he must have spent some amount of time at the point during games in the past two seasons - I can't imagine that every time JR Smith came on the floor that Iverson went off. That's what you're going to get here - Stuckey's going to get 25 minutes or so at the point. Last year Anthony Carter only got 28 MPG - its basically going to be the same kind of thing except that Stuckey probably won't be the starter. AI will "start" as PG but he's going to play less than half the game running point.

BTW, have you watched many Pistons games recently? It's not like they have a whole lot of flow or continuity on offense as it is. Curry has gone to implementing a system that tries to have players doing more cutting and not have the need for a traditional point guard. If Iverson is going to pound the ball into the floor for 20 seconds and then jack something up he's going to do it whether he's the point or the two guard.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

BTW, have you watched many Pistons games recently? It's not like they have a whole lot of flow or continuity on offense as it is. Curry has gone to implementing a system that tries to have players doing more cutting and not have the need for a traditional point guard. If Iverson is going to pound the ball into the floor for 20 seconds and then jack something up he's going to do it whether he's the point or the two guard.

AI probably did play a few minutes at PG last year. But very few. Smith only played 19 minutes a game last year.

Your astute observation that Philly had crap around him for years is a good one, and to me points out the reason that AI is a terrible fit for the Pistons. The best scenario for AI is exactly that situation, where he is the unquestioned best player, and his teammates expect and know he's going to dominate - not just lead, but dominate - the offense. He has spent the last season and a half proving that he does not share the ball well, and that was only with one other player demanding the ball. On a team where 4 or 5 other guys regularly expect shots? I just don't see it working well.

I think they'll be worse, and noone will see AI as the problem. He'll get his points, even a fair amount of assists, but somehow all of the other players will see their performance drop, the team will win fewer games than with Billups, NOT make the EC finals, and noone will think to blame AI.

Yeah, 3 years down the road, it will be tough to stomach paying Billups a gazillion dollars. But this year, I think they've made the Nuggets better and the Pistons worse.

[TroyF]

1) Camby isn't a 23 year old with a great history of being injury free. He's an ancient mariner on gimpy legs. And I guess you forgot the point about him sucking at pick and roll defense. That means he can't cover either post players with size on him OR guys who can hit the 14 foot face up. (remember Pau Gasol going off for 36 in game one of the playoffs last year? That stud Camby was on him. Trust me, Denver is better off without Camby.

As for Nene? He's a very, very good basketball player. He can't stay healthy, but neither can Camby. (the last two years aside, the guy is brittle) Either way, Denver will be better on both offense and defense now that Camby is gone.

2) Samdari is 100% right on AI. AI didn't make a single Nugget BETTER.

People forget what was happening with the Nuggets before the AI trade. Before the infamous NY brawl.

JR was averaging over 16 points a game and shooting lights out. (he was well over 40% from the three point line)

Carmelo was averaging over 30 points a game on 50%+ shooting. This wasn't over a 10 game stretch. They'd played 25 games. Neither player came close to approaching those numbers for a 25 game stretch until January of last year. What took place in January of last year? The Nuggets gave up and used a 32 year old journeyman as their PG instead of AI.

What player did AI make better on the Nuggets roster? And why did this player who only wants to win a title not pass the ball more when it was clear the Nuggets were a far better team when he did? I'm not even talking about 10 assists here. I'm talking about 6 assists. When he had 6 or more assists, Denver won 69% of the time. SIX ASSISTS, in one of the fastest paced tteam in the league. Are you kidding me? Denver was 14-3 when AI had 10 or more assists. They were 8-3 when he took 15 or less shots in a game. When he took 20 or more shots, they went 16-13. (or 16-16 if you count the playoffs)

So when you pass more and shoot less and your team wins more often, why do you pass less and shoot more close to triple the amount of time you do it the other way? Could it possibly be because he's a tad selfish and didn't want to sacrifice and pass more? Please.

As for the Nuggets, yeah. the contracts suck. But that's ok. We are better now and we'll deal with the contracts later. The NBA can be funny. Guys who make a lot of money in their last year seem to get value for rebuilding team.

But the things Chauncey does well will age well. See the floor, pass the ball, shoot the three. He'll be able to do all of that at 35. And as for defense, I understand he's slower, but you have to understand the Nuggets spent most of last year with Anthony Carter and Allen Iverson at the SG and PG spots. In the Lakers game, Anthony Carter was D'ing up on Kobe Bryant late in the game, because Karl didn't feel comfortable letting AI handle the PG duties with the game on the line.

Think about that one.

A 6'3" Chauncey, will be much better than what we've had. Just for kicks, here is what Hollinger has to say about Chauncey:

I'm not sure everyone understands quite what a devastating offensive player Billups is. He only played 32.4 minutes per game last year and Detroit was the league's slowest-paced team, so he averaged just 17.0 points per game.

But look at how efficient he was. Billups got his points on just 11.2 field-goal attempts per game because he was so good at both drawing fouls and making 3-pointers. Many players are good at one or the other; besides Billups, almost nobody is good at both. He had the second-best free-throw rate among point guards and hit 91.8 percent from the stripe, but he also was in the top third in 3-point attempts per field-goal attempt and knocked down 40.1 percent from there.

One wonders if he should launch more from downtown. In particular, Billups is so good at shooting threes from the wing that it's a wonder Detroit doesn't run more plays to get him shots from there. Over the past four years he's made a jaw-dropping 47.4 percent from either wing spot -- that's not a one-year small-sample fluke, people, that's an entire Olympiad and comprises over 600 shot attempts.

Oh, and when he's not killing you with his shot-making Billups is an exquisite point guard who ranked 10th in pure point rating.
------------------------------------------------------

You can take AI. I'll take Billups.

[stevew]

I really like JR Smith a lot. Hopefully he can continue to show maturity. Guy can certainly become a better scorer, and now he should get a ton more minutes. Especially with a true PG to dish it to him.

I'm glad to have Billips out of the conference. He usually killed us.

[cmp]

Originally Posted by Samdari

If AI is the PG, then the Pistons are playing without one, and Detroit will not make the playoffs. I have seen enough of AI as PG to stand behind the 20-25 games worse prediction.

That's probably one of the worst predictions I've seen in a very long time. Detroit will still win 50-55 games easily this season.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by TroyF

1) Camby isn't a 23 year old with a great history of being injury free. He's an ancient mariner on gimpy legs. And I guess you forgot the point about him sucking at pick and roll defense. That means he can't cover either post players with size on him OR guys who can hit the 14 foot face up. (remember Pau Gasol going off for 36 in game one of the playoffs last year? That stud Camby was on him. Trust me, Denver is better off without Camby.

As for Nene? He's a very, very good basketball player.

Like I said, if Nene is so fantastic why not put him on the better player of the 4 or 5 and let Camby guard the guy who is less of a threat or even mix in some zone? I don't know what you're basing your assessment of Nene on but I've certainly never seen anything in his career to make me think he was a very, very good player. I don't see him and Martin (assuming the small chance both stay healthy) have any more success against the Gasol/Bynum or Stoudamire/O'Neal tandems.

Could it possibly be because he's a tad selfish and didn't want to sacrifice and pass more? Please.

Iverson has always been a shoot first player and he still probably will be. We don't have an offensive player like Anthony though so its fine if Iverson is option one. I have a feeling that if he thinks he has a legit chance to win a title, which he knew he didn't have in Denver, that he might be willing to look for his teammates a little more. He'll have three other all stars on the floor with him in Rip, Prince and Sheed. I do think Iverson has been the kind of player interested in "getting his" and he had alot of competition in Denver for that with Anthony and guys like JR Smith. I also know that nobody plays the game harder than Iverson night in and night out and that kind of thing is appreciated here.

As for the Nuggets, yeah. the contracts suck. But that's ok. We are better now and we'll deal with the contracts later. The NBA can be funny. Guys who make a lot of money in their last year seem to get value for rebuilding team.

How is it ok that the contracts suck? Billups is an all-star calibur player and one of the finest offensive point guards in the league. He shoots the ball very well and doesn't make many turnovers. But he's going to slow the offense down (I don't know if that works to Denver's benefit or not) and get abused on the defensive end by smaller, quicker point guards. Like someone mentioned, Rondo killed us in the ECF. What is Paul, Parker and Nash going to do to him? But will all that money tied up in guys like Martin and Nene you're right, the Nuggets are going to have to rebuild so the next few years aren't going to be any better than what they have been and then you go back to the drawing board to build around Melo again.

Chauncey is a terrific player - I loved him here but and if we're talking 4 years ago asking which player do you want for the next 4 seasons I take Chauncey too. But I'm willing to take our shot this year with a hall of fame player like Iverson and then be the team in the best position the next two offseasons to add at least one all-star free agent to our team which will already have a core of Rip, Tayshaun and an improved Stuckey and Amir Johnson.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

he's going to ... get abused on the defensive end by smaller, quicker point guards.

I keep hearing this criticism. I don't get it. Read any of the analysis on this trade by people who watch more NBA than any of us, and the one point everyone agrees on is that this improves the Nuggets on defense.

You keep using the Rondo example to extrapolate that to Billups getting abused by smaller quicker PGs. But, while Billups did get beaten by Rondo, he generally defended pretty well last year. Rondo might be the quickest PG in the league.

Iverson got beat by everybody's point guard. He is probably the worst in the league (non-Marbury division) at guarding the other guys' PG.

[TroyF]

1) When Nene has been healthy (the rare times he has), he's been a terrific player. The best example I can give is during the 06/07 playoffs. (by the way, this will also give you a taste of Allen Iverson's play)

During the 5 games that year, Nene averaged 15 points and 8 rebounds per game. he shot 58% from the floor and took 10 shots a game.

Carmelo Anthony torched Bruce Bowen that series. He averaged 27 points a game on 48% shooting and took 19 shots a game.

Allen Iverson ran the point in the series. (Blake was the PG in name only, he was in there as another ball handler/talller defensive player) AI averaged 23 points a game in the series. He shot the ball 23 times a game.

So Melo and Nene were tearing it up and yet AI felt the need to continue driving in and getting his shot blocked over and over and over again. In game 4 of the series, Carmelo went 11-18, Nene went 7-9 and AI went 9-25. So the two other weapons we had make 18 shots in 27 attempts and AI makes 9 in 25. I wonder who should have had more shots? (FWIW, in that playoff series, when Nene stepped off the court, the Nuggets averaged 17 points less per 100 possessions, stunning)

That second half of 06/07 was really the only time Nene has had a good run of health in his career. During the final 38 games of the year, he averaged 15 points, 8 boards a game on 64% shooting.

As for the Nuggets, don't worry about our rebuilding issues. I'm a Nuggets fan, I'm used to it. JR and Melo are two premier scorers and they are both locked up for a few more years. Nene is locked up as well. (though his health will determine how good that deal is) A starting lineup of Chauncey, JR, Melo, KMart and Nene is a pretty solid lineup. We'll be much, much improved in the short term and worry about the salary issues later on.

Detroit is solid. Dumars made some great moves. This one? I don't think it's so. I think you'll regret giving up Billups. Pace factor is such a huge thing in basketball, and few people understand it. For example, last year the Nuggets finished 11th in offensive efficiency and 9th in defensive efficiency. Detroit was 4th in defense efficiency and 8th in offensive efficiency. Detroit ranks #1 in offensive efficiency this year. (they did play one game without Chauncey)

Detroit was not a poor offensive team. Quite the opposite, they were pretty damned good. And the Nuggets aren't nearly as horrible as people think they are on that end. But to each their own. We'll continue the debate later on. Lets see how AI does and how the nuggets look with Chauncey.

I, for one, am thrilled with the two major moves the Nuggets have made. I'm going to enjoy having a real life PG and seeing Melo, JR and Nene with a guy who looks to set them up as opposed to shooting it himself. Nene's health is the big concern. But if he's healthy, I think we'll surprise a lot of people this year.

[MikeVic]

Don't mean to chime in, but reading "fantastic" and "15 points and 8 boards" run a bell with me. I would not call that stat line fantastic. It's good for a center these days, but fantastic would be a minimal double-double average for myself.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

Don't mean to chime in, but reading "fantastic" and "15 points and 8 boards" run a bell with me. I would not call that stat line fantastic. It's good for a center these days, but fantastic would be a minimal double-double average for myself.

Keep in mind he was playing with Camby grabbing a ton of boards, AI/JR/Melo taking over 50 shots a game AND he did it in 30 minutes a night. He also plays terrific defense. Get him up to around 35 minutes a night and he'll be in the 17-10 range, along with great D. That makes him a very solid center in the league.

Look, don't take my word for it. Just watch the guy over the next few weeks. (or as long as his health holds out) Look at how well Denver plays with him vs. without him. It's a huge difference.

[cmp]

Originally Posted by Samdari

I keep hearing this criticism. I don't get it. Read any of the analysis on this trade by people who watch more NBA than any of us, and the one point everyone agrees on is that this improves the Nuggets on defense.

You keep using the Rondo example to extrapolate that to Billups getting abused by smaller quicker PGs. But, while Billups did get beaten by Rondo, he generally defended pretty well last year. Rondo might be the quickest PG in the league.

Iverson got beat by everybody's point guard. He is probably the worst in the league (non-Marbury division) at guarding the other guys' PG.

How many Detroit games did you watch? I probably watched about 85% of the games last season and have seen it wasn't just Rondo that beat him, it happens more often than not. His defense has been on a major decline. Yes, it probably will be an upgrade for Denver on the defensive side but it's not the major boost you're trying to make it out to be.

Maybe this trade does improve Denver this season. But it won't get them a title. In two or three years Denver fans won't look back at this trade as favorably as they do today. Detroit on the other hand I don't feel are any worse after the deal. Stuckey is the future at point for them, Billups wasn't. Dumars has put together a team that can still win this year and have the flexibility to make moves in the future so they can keep winning.

[adubroff]

Originally Posted by TroyF

What player did AI make better on the Nuggets roster? And why did this player who only wants to win a title not pass the ball more when it was clear the Nuggets were a far better team when he did? I'm not even talking about 10 assists here. I'm talking about 6 assists. When he had 6 or more assists, Denver won 69% of the time. SIX ASSISTS, in one of the fastest paced tteam in the league. Are you kidding me? Denver was 14-3 when AI had 10 or more assists. They were 8-3 when he took 15 or less shots in a game. When he took 20 or more shots, they went 16-13. (or 16-16 if you count the playoffs)

This 6 number is nonsense. In the games they lost last year, AI averaged 19.2 shots vs 19 in the games they won. He had .15 more turnovers per game. That's a combined .35 extra "non passes" caused by AI. Overall, he had one fewer assist per game in losses than wins, so there is about a .65 assist gap here that was largely caused by his teammates either not getting him the ball as much or by his teammates not converting when he did.

Also, the team as a whole was better when he was playing PG, by a fairly healthy margin.

Allen Iverson of the Denver Nuggets, stats by playing position from 82games.com

This is probably a large reason why the team had issues when he didn't get assists, because they were playing a PG who stinks (Carter) and couldn't get him the rock. It also probably had a lot to do with their defense with both of those guys on the court.

The statistic about Denver's win percentage in games where AI shot < 15 times is a bit self selecting too. When they got up big, they took him out and he didn't shoot as often. A few of the games also fall into the category where AI went to the line a boatload and contributed that way.

[Rich1033]

Ohh, zing. Anyway, its kind of mute since AI will start at the 1 but isnt going to spend that much time setting up and running the offense.

Bottom line, Stuckey is the future and Billups contract had to be cleared to make that happen. Im a fan of Billups and I wish him well. I will say that the one thing you will love about his game is that he never misses a FT. Its nice having that confidence everytime he gets fouled.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by adubroff

This 6 number is nonsense. In the games they lost last year, AI averaged 19.2 shots vs 19 in the games they won. He had .15 more turnovers per game. That's a combined .35 extra "non passes" caused by AI. Overall, he had one fewer assist per game in losses than wins, so there is about a .65 assist gap here that was largely caused by his teammates either not getting him the ball as much or by his teammates not converting when he did.

Also, the team as a whole was better when he was playing PG, by a fairly healthy margin.

Allen Iverson of the Denver Nuggets, stats by playing position from 82games.com

This is probably a large reason why the team had issues when he didn't get assists, because they were playing a PG who stinks (Carter) and couldn't get him the rock. It also probably had a lot to do with their defense with both of those guys on the court.

The statistic about Denver's win percentage in games where AI shot < 15 times is a bit self selecting too. When they got up big, they took him out and he didn't shoot as often. A few of the games also fall into the category where AI went to the line a boatload and contributed that way.

And you can think that, but you are 100% wrong. The 82games.com stats can lie, because they are so dependent on other players. I love the site and use it a lot, but there just weren't enough minutes last year to give any kind of a representitive sample size with AI off the floor. He played 86% of the minutes. When he wasn't on the court, the game was usually over. (and usually, it was a blowout the Nuggets way. AI might leave the game with Denver up by 25 and we'd win by 12 with a finishing lineup of five stiffs.

Does the Nuggets offense shrivel up and die without AI on the court? Not really. Last night they scored 108 points and shot 38%. The Nuggets will score no matter who is or isn't on the floor. (so long as Melo, JR and Nene are healthy)

By the way, the 6 assist thing is huge. AI played over 41 minutes a game. He handled the ball FAR more than anyone else on the team, even when AC was playing the "point". (in quotes, because AC rarely actually set up the offense, he dribbled it up and dropped it off to AI) AI simply didn't create chances for other players around him. Not nearly at the level people thinks he does.

Thoughts from game 1's for both Chauncey and AI:

1) Chauncey played poorly and still gave Denver something we haven't had in years. A PG who could run the offense at the end of the game. He got the ball to the right people and made the right decisions in the fourth quarter. The Nuggets couldn't hit an open 15 footer to save their lives, but Billups ran the offense well in the fourth quarter and got the ball where it needed to be. On one possession, he cleared out one side of the floor and threw a post pass to Melo, who ended up being fouled. AI might have called that play in crunch time 2 times in the last 2 seasons.

2) I know people think Nene is a big, goofy stiff. But man is he important to this team. He's now averaging 15.8 points, 8.4 boards, and about 1.5 steals and 1.5 blocks a game. All this while shooting 64% and playing solid defense. He a much, much better player than people want to give him credit for being. Nene's PER this year of 21.40 is better than Yao, Al Jefferson, Ilgauskus, Sheed, Okur, Kaman, and Bynum to name just a handful of guys.

3) AI plays well and his team loses. Never seen that one before. In all seriousness, it's going to take the Pistons time to learn how to play with AI. I think their shooting percentages are going to be horrible for awhile. (and I'm not certain they'll improve a lot to be honest, I think every major Pistons player will take a hit in FG% with AI on the court. But they will adjust and play better down the stretch than they did last night. All of that said, I heard a lot of talk about Billups and his horrible defense. I don't think you realize how bad AI is going to be. When you asked me what we'd do against Parker, Paul or Williams, I had to laugh.

I think my favorite quote in the thread was this one:

I do think people here don't understand how bad Chauncey has gotten defensivley. Rondo took it to him in the ECF whenever he needed to. That was a second year guy on a 10 plus year vet. He is too bulky and lost his first step. He still is good but he lost a lot of his explosion.

Rondo took it to him in the ECF?

In the ECF, Rondo played 6 games, averaged 39 minutes a night. He averaged 9 points on 35% shooting.

Rondo played the Nuggets twice last year. He averaged 18 points a game on 61% shooting in 31.5 minutes a night.

I think it's you who don't realize how bad AI is on defense.

I won't say anymore on this until the quarter pole. Lets see how it plays out for both teams. I don't think detroit will miss the playoffs or be as horrible as samdari thinks they might be (though I see his reasoning for saying it after watching AI for 2.5 years) But I also think they have no shot at getting out of round 2 in the East this year with AI.

We'll see what happens.