Wie advances at USAPL

[HomerJSimpson]

Originally Posted by moriarty

Has she ever really said she doesn't care about the LPGA? I'm not saying you're wrong necessarily, I've just never heard her say it.

I have heard her say her goal is to play on the men's tour. That's a lot different than saying FU to the LPGA. That's saying, I want to compete against the best, period. We applaud other athletes for this mentality.

For instance, where is the crowd shouting that Freddy Adu should be playing high-school ball? Isn't that where he belongs?

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

I think we agree to a point, but I disagree saying it's "fair" to call her a choker.

Would the same people who are calling her a choker go online and call their 18-year-old neighbor who missed a layup at the buzzer to send his team to the state playoffs a choker? Some certainly would -- and these are the types who yell at 8-year-olds during soccer games too. In other words, ass hats.

As I said, calling her a choker for her performances at the US Open and the John Deere ignores the fact that she's 15 and solely looks at the golf results. From that perspective, its fair - and accurate.

She also cannot have it both ways. If she wants to play against the top women and men because it is the best competition, she cannot then hide behind being so young as an excuse when she does not play well. You want to play at the top level, you should be willing to be judged on that level too. If she had performed that way at a junior event, I'd agree with everything you are saying - its ridiculous to call those performances chokes. Since they were at the top levels of golf, they were chokes.

[Ryan S]

Originally Posted by stkelly52

As for her playing in other tournaments on corporate exemptions, I don't hear anyone complaining when that exemption goes to Ray Ramano. Certainly they don't think that Ray has earned it more than her.

Ray Romano would never ever get a sponsors exemption to a PGA tournament. He has played in Pro Am tourneys on the tour, but those are completely different. In those cases, the pro am runs alongside the pro tournament.

[Wolfpack]

Wie's doing well again. Last report from USGA website has her 2-up through 8.

[moriarty]

Originally Posted by Wolfpack

Wie's doing well again. Last report from USGA website has her 2-up through 8.

If my math is right, that would get her into the final 8 right?

[Chas in Cinti]

Originally Posted by moriarty

If my math is right, that would get her into the final 8 right?

If she wins.... still 10 more holes...

-Chas

[moriarty]

Originally Posted by Chas in Cinti

If she wins.... still 10 more holes...

-Chas

True. She'll probably choke.

[moriarty]

Dola - uh-oh, she just gave one back on 12. 1 up with 6 to go.

BTW - that Anthony Kim guy is just destroying people. My money's on him to win.

[k0ruptr]

2 up with 4 to play, lookin good for her to get to quarter finals

[SackAttack]

Isn't this the event that grants a Master's exemption to the champion?

[moriarty]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

Isn't this the event that grants a Master's exemption to the champion?

Both the Amateur public links (this one) and the US Amateur (August) grant a Master's exemption I believe.

[k0ruptr]

2 up with 2 to play, with just a tie on either of the last 2 holes she advances

[k0ruptr]

3 and 1 victory..

[moriarty]

Wie wins and advances (rats beat again).

BTW - when she went from 3 up to 1 up on the back in just 4 holes, it would have been a good time to choke ... but she didn't. Likewise in the opening round when she was in 84th place (and needed to get to 64th by round 2) she could have choked but came through.

[stkelly52]

Originally Posted by k0ruptr

3 and 1 victory..

As someone who doesn't really follow golf at all, what does this mean?

[digamma]

Originally Posted by stkelly52

As someone who doesn't really follow golf at all, what does this mean?

3 holes up with one to play, i.e., there was no way her opponent could win or force a tie, so the match ended after the 17th hole.

[stkelly52]

OK, I get it. Thanks

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by moriarty

Both the Amateur public links (this one) and the US Amateur (August) grant a Master's exemption I believe.

Sigh, no one listens.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by Samdari

Sigh, no one listens.

As applied for the 2005 tournament, the winner of the Public links as well as the winner and the runner-up at the US Amateur would receive an invitation to the Master's.

[moriarty]

Originally Posted by Samdari

Sigh, no one listens.

Why? Because you claim the Master's can revoke the offer to the winner? Big deal - they won't do it, and they already said if Michelle wins she'll play in the Masters.

So the public links winner and the amateur winner (and runner up, thanks Diagmma) WILL get an invite to the Masters. Maybe it's you who should learn to listen.

[JW]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

To all the detractors there is a simple solution. If you don't think she belongs there, beat her.

If you can't, STFU.

I always enjoy seeing this logic. Of course by that logic, if you are not better than Kobe, you can't be a Kobe detractor. Just stfu. If you can't beat Lance in the Tour de France, you have no right to say anything negative about him. stfu. Etc. Interesting viewpoint.

Having said that, I will just repeat my opinion that the Michelle Wie story is overrated, though she is a very good golfer. But then it is golf, after all. However, I think it would be neat for her to win and qualify for the Masters.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by moriarty

Why? Because you claim the Master's can revoke the offer to the winner? Big deal - they won't do it, and they already said if Michelle wins she'll play in the Masters.

So the public links winner and the amateur winner (and runner up, thanks Diagmma) WILL get an invite to the Masters. Maybe it's you who should learn to listen.

My understanding of it (granted this is just from talking heads on the radio), there is no guarantee of an invite.. it has just traditionally happened, but there is no agreement or statement in writing that the winner is granted an invite to the Master's.

[Danny]

I have and will continue to root for Wie in every men's tournament she enters.

[moriarty]

Originally Posted by wade moore

My understanding of it (granted this is just from talking heads on the radio), there is no guarantee of an invite.. it has just traditionally happened, but there is no agreement or statement in writing that the winner is granted an invite to the Master's.

I don't disagree with your statement (or Samdari's).

However, the dude asked a simple question and he deserved a simple answer. The Master's has traditionally invited the winner of the tournament (and the amateur). Can anyone recall the last time they didn't? And if they were going to change the tradition, they would say so before the tournament. Hootie and the boys aren't stupid enough to crush some kid's dream after he thinks he's (or she's) qualified.

So I'm 99.99% sure they will be invited. And I'm willing to take any bets to the contrary.

The only reason this comes up with the talking heads recently is because there was a question on whether they would allow Wie to play if she qualifies. This is a mute point for two reasons. 1) Hootie is already on record saying if she wins, she'll ge the invite. 2) The Masters or Augusta National has no policy against women playing there. Women have played, and do play at Augusta, so there's no reason to think they wouldn't let her play. The controversy at Augusta comes from them not allowing a woman member (not a woman play their course).

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by moriarty

The Master's has traditionally invited the winner of the tournament (and the amateur). Can anyone recall the last time they didn't? And if they were going to change the tradition, they would say so before the tournament

You have absolutely no basis to say that the Master's would announce before the tournament that they were not inviting the champion. In the past they have announced during the final 18 holes of a tournament that traditionally sent its champion that this year's champ would not be invited. They have always invited the champion of the publinx, true (and I think they would even if it were Wie) but they have also never announced beforehand that they were inviting the champion. The correct answer to the question would be: they invite who they want.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by moriarty

they already said if Michelle wins she'll play in the Masters.

I think you imagined this - please provide a source.

[SirFozzie]

I don't think he did, I saw it on ESPN, Samdari, but I will hunt for a link for you.

[moriarty]

Originally Posted by Samdari

I think you imagined this - please provide a source.

I already did if you'd listen or read. Try rereading this thread and follow the links I provided.

Edit: Let me help. POST 20

[moriarty]

Originally Posted by Samdari

In the past they have announced during the final 18 holes of a tournament that traditionally sent its champion that this year's champ would not be invited.

Really, when did this happen?

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by moriarty

I already did if you'd listen or read. Try rereading this thread and follow the links I provided.

Edit: Let me help. POST 20

I already read that. I was looking for a trusted source, with a quote. If he had truly announced this, it would have been huge news that everyone reported, yet everyone in the golf press except one unkown writer at a minor site thinks that the Master's has said nothing regarding Wie.

[moriarty]

Originally Posted by Samdari

I already read that. I was looking for a trusted source, with a quote. If he had truly announced this, it would have been huge news that everyone reported, yet everyone in the golf press except one unkown writer at a minor site thinks that the Master's has said nothing regarding Wie.

Uh, ESPN is not a trusted source? What do I have to do to convinve you?

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by moriarty

Uh, ESPN is not a trusted source? What do I have to do to convinve you?

That's NOT espn.com. I did find it there however. I am stunned that was not bigger news.

She lost the first two holes today, however.

[SirFozzie]

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl...75/1004/SPORTS

Wie is the first female to qualify for a U.S. Golf Association men's championship, but her eye is fixed on something bigger. The Masters, where no woman has played, has been her lifelong dream. Since 1989, all-male Augusta National Golf Club has annually invited the Public Links champion to play in the Masters, and club chairman Hootie Johnson has said Augusta would welcome Wie or any other woman who qualifies.

[moriarty]

Originally Posted by Samdari

That's NOT espn.com. I did find it there however. I am stunned that was not bigger news.

She lost the first two holes today, however.

Yeah, I don't think she'll win - that Kim guy looks good.

Anyways, sounds like you're coming around but here's a link to the official Master's Website. Link Here

The page shows the 2006 MASTERS TOURNAMENT INVITEES
Current Field to Date: Note at the bottom:

6. Current US Amateur Champion (6-A) (Honorary, non- competing after 1 year) and the runner-up (6-B) to the current US Amateur Champion
8. Current US Amateur Public Links Champion
9. Current US Mid-Amateur Champion for 2005 (threw that one in for kicks)

So I suppose they could change their mind (or have a rogue website), but this looks to me like they've already invited the winners into the field.

[Samdari]

Getting worse, lost 4 of the first 5. Not that she is playing bad, all of the holes she lost were on birdies by Clay Ogden.

The thing with the Master's list of invitees is that, unlike the other majors, there is no large governing body saying, these people qualify, and then they have to stick to it. That list is guidelines (followed 99% of the time, I know) not hard and fast rules, and they have at times in the past not invited people who met their existing criteria for invitations (something I am having trouble making you understand). That's why I have been doubting all along (and still think there's about a 10% chance she would not) she would get invited.

For example, if the winner of one of those were to come out and make a big public stink about Augusta's membership policies, I am fairly certain they would not be getting their invitation letter, despite having met published criteria.

[moriarty]

Originally Posted by Samdari

That list is guidelines (followed 99% of the time, I know) not hard and fast rules, and they have at times in the past not invited people who met their existing criteria for invitations (something I am having trouble making you understand).

I understand very well how controlling the folks are in Augusta. I still remember them kicking out the television commentator (whose name escapes me) for making the bikini wax comment.

I still don't know when in the past though they've declined to invite the winner of either tournament - could you enlighten me on this? I know the public links amateur has been invited since 1989 (when I believe they first started inviting them).

[Ryan S]

Hootie Johnson said over a year ago that he would be delighted to welcome her to Augusta if she qualified. I am not sure why anyone would think he was lying when he said that.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by Ryan S

Hootie Johnson said over a year ago that he would be delighted to welcome her to Augusta if she qualified. I am not sure why anyone would think he was lying when he said that.

I don't think he was lying - I do know its not entirely up to him.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by moriarty

I understand very well how controlling the folks are in Augusta. I still remember them kicking out the television commentator (whose name escapes me) for making the bikini wax comment.

Gary McCord

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by moriarty

I still don't know when in the past though they've declined to invite the winner of either tournament - could you enlighten me on this? I know the public links amateur has been invited since 1989 (when I believe they first started inviting them).

They did not want blacks, so they neglected to invite them when they first met existing criteria.

They did not want foreign players, so they did not invite them when they met existing criteria.

I suspected that the same would hold true for women.

All occurred prior to 1989.

[moriarty]

Originally Posted by Samdari

They did not want blacks, so they neglected to invite them when they first met existing criteria.

They did not want foreign players, so they did not invite them when they met existing criteria.

I suspected that the same would hold true for women.

All occurred prior to 1989.

Lee Elder was invited to the tournment in 1975 (for winning a PGA tournament, not the amateur). And foreign players have been invited for as long as I can remember (Gary Player won it way back in 1961).

So I would say it's probably safe to say that the Master's committe hasn't turned down any winner of the US Amateur in the past 30 years, and the public links champion since 1989 (or since they first started inviting them)?

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by moriarty

So I would say it's probably safe to say that the Master's committe hasn't turned down any winner of the US Amateur in the past 30 years, and the public links champion since 1989 (or since they first started inviting them)?

Its absolutely safe to say that - its provably true.

That does not change the fact that they did not invite a foreign player the first time one should have been eligible, and they did not invite a black player the first time one traditionally would have been eligible.

You really think I am making up them excluding people? They have done it, trust me.

EDIT: Yeah, she finally gets one back, winning the 10th to get within 4.

[moriarty]

Originally Posted by Samdari

Its absolutely safe to say that - its provably true.

That does not change the fact that they did not invite a foreign player the first time one should have been eligible, and they did not invite a black player the first time one traditionally would have been eligible.

You really think I am making up them excluding people? They have done it, trust me.

EDIT: Yeah, she finally gets one back, winning the 10th to get within 4.

I believe you - I haven't even asked for the link. Like I said, I'm fully aware of how controlling (edit - controlling may not be the right word here - as, they've said many times, it's their tournament, they can conduct it the way they want) the Master's committee can be.

I'm just curious how long ago it was that they actually invoked this policy.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by moriarty

I believe you - I haven't even asked for the link. Like I said, I'm fully aware of how controlling (edit - controlling may not be the right word here - as, they've said many times, it's their tournament, they can conduct it the way they want) the Master's committee can be.

I'm just curious how long ago it was that they actually invoked this policy.

LOL, well I have been looking for a link. Unfortunately news that occurred 20 years before the internet became a repository for information is harder to come by than I have suspected.

The famous story I am thinking of was actually told during a golf tournament I was watching one day. It was during the 80's (the tournament I was watching, not the time it happened) probably, and I don't even remember the announcer. The announcer said that they revoked a tournament's (the Canadian Open I believe) automatic entry into the Master's on the back 9 because a black was in contention. Presumably this would have had to have happened prior to Elder in 1974.

So, there is my source, my memory of an oral retelling that occurred at least 15 years ago, of an incident that occurred at least 30 years ago. Perhaps that is not as rock solid as I am thinking.

EDIT: gave her hole back on the 11th, now down 5. If this is 18 (not sure when they go to 36, but its probably the semis or finals) she is in a world of hurt.

[Mustang]

She's done..

I don't think I can live for the next few days without constant Wie updates. Hopefully, someone latches onto the opportunity tonight and presents Wie reading Harry Potter...

[rkmsuf]

I'd hit it right after Dark Cloud.

[Wolfpack]

I do not doubt the Masters may have done something like that in the past. It's in Augusta, GA, after all, and quite obviously people are still around who endured segregation. However, at this point, I doubt they'd do anything of the sort. They could ride out Martha Burke and her one-woman-acting-as-a-voice-of-millions routine, but it's another kettle of fish to actually change the rules to block a player in such a discriminatory fashion. No way in hell CBS stands with them to carry the tournament if they did that nowadays. The firestorm would be nuclear in comparison to the struck matchstick of the women's membership question.