Sammy Sosa calls it quits?!??

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by Chubby

the corked bat goes to show that Sosa has no problem cheating which leads more credence to the argument that he used steroids.

Exactly.

And as far as the corked bat not giving him an advantage: He thought it was giving him an advantage, and he broke the rules to try to get that advantage. It's not our fault that he's also a dumbass as well as a cheater.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I'm not really sure I understand this rationale. This isn't a criminal trial and there is no double jeopardy here. We most certainly can hold that, or anything anyone else has done, against him, regardless of whether he served his punishment or not.

Exactly. When people are arguing about "where's the proof?" Just remember... there is no burden of proof in the court of public opinion. I think he did steroids, but I doubt I or anyone else could prove it in a court of law. That doesn't mean that I, and many others, don't still believe him to be guilty of cheating.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

Exactly. When people are arguing about "where's the proof?" Just remember... there is no burden of proof in the court of public opinion. I think he did steroids, but I doubt I or anyone else could prove it in a court of law. That doesn't mean that I, and many others, don't still believe him to be guilty of cheating.

Yeah but you're still wrong.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I'm not really sure I understand this rationale. This isn't a criminal trial and there is no double jeopardy here. We most certainly can hold that, or anything anyone else has done, against him, regardless of whether he served his punishment or not. I guess Palmeiro's a lock for the Hall if none of the voters can factor his positive test into their vote since he served his 10 game suspension...?

Agreed, that's like saying "we can't hold it against the child abuser in Father of the Year contests because he served his time". The corked bat definitely comes into play.

SI

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by pennywisesb

Yes he did serve his punishment, so we can't really hold him accountable for that. I'm just curious where you got this "no real advantage" information reguarding the corked bat. If thats the case, why are they illegal?

A corked bat may allow for a slight improvement in bat speed, but at the cost of less power:

http://www.kettering.edu/~drussell/b...corkedbat.html

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

Exactly. When people are arguing about "where's the proof?" Just remember... there is no burden of proof in the court of public opinion. I think he did steroids, but I doubt I or anyone else could prove it in a court of law. That doesn't mean that I, and many others, don't still believe him to be guilty of cheating.

Certainly. But if you're talking about refusing to admit someone to the Hall of Fame who otherwise has obvious qualifications for entry, you'd better have something more concrete than "I think he juiced".

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Yes, I would, but those decisions have been made and apparently neither baseball, the writers, the players, or the vast majority of fans give a fuck, as compared to what's going on now. At this point, you can't undo what's already been done.

True. We live in a different world now where the general public knows a lot more about what happens behind the scenes than we used to. Before Ball Four it was taboo to mention the dirty little secrets of what went on in the clubhouse. Once Bouton blew open those doors, you couldn't put the genie back in the bottle.

I'm pretty sure that had the level of scrutiny that happens in sports today been present in the decades prior to the '80's, amphetamine abuse by ballplayers back then would've been nearly the same scandal that steroids are today. But because it was not reported by the writers of the time, the confessions now are either ignored or easily forgotten by most of the sporting public. In their minds, the game was "purer" then despite evidence to the contrary, simply because they grew up thinking that was the case.

Unfortunately, so long as there is competition there will be those who will go to any lengths to gain an advantage. Due to the nature of drugs and drug testing, smart and well financed athletes can always stay ahead of the testing curve. This is not meant as a defense of cheaters - simply an acknowledgement that cheating has always and will always exist, and that the game really isn't any less "pure" than it ever was.

I have no problem busting those that get caught - I think it's necessary to do so even though we'll never catch all of those that cheat. But I think the witch-hunting that exists around steroids is out of proportion to similar sins surrounding sports and is unfair to those that are tarred and feathered without any proof. It wouldn't shock me if Sosa admitted that he juiced, but I think in the absence of such an admission or some other strong form of proof, his career should be judged on its own merits when it comes to Hall of Fame entry. Palmeiro on the other hand will undoubtedly be the first Hall of Fame steroid casualty, and I don't have much sympathy for him. Since he tested positive, the burden of proof is squarely on his shoulders to show that he didn't take steroids.

[Ksyrup]

I kinda look at it in a more worldly, general sense. Presidential affairs weren't reported like they are now; war reporting is far more critical than it was in the 40s and 50s; reporting of Hollywood goings-on is beyond ridiculous - it used to be a bad thing to have a sex tape, now it's gotten to the point where Scott Stapp and Kid Rock are about to release a sex tape (doing 4 chicks, not each other). I just think the press and the hype and the scrutiny and all of the money involved has racheted all of these types of "scandals" up to unseen levels. In other words - people like Mickey Mantle, Babe Ruth, FDR, and JFK were lucky bastards to have done what they did when they did it. We live in a different world now.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I kinda look at it in a more worldly, general sense. Presidential affairs weren't reported like they are now; war reporting is far more critical than it was in the 40s and 50s; reporting of Hollywood goings-on is beyond ridiculous - it used to be a bad thing to have a sex tape, now it's gotten to the point where Scott Stapp and Kid Rock are about to release a sex tape (doing 4 chicks, not each other). I just think the press and the hype and the scrutiny and all of the money involved has racheted all of these types of "scandals" up to unseen levels. In other words - people like Mickey Mantle, Babe Ruth, FDR, and JFK were lucky bastards to have done what they did when they did it. We live in a different world now.

Yep. I agree completely. I think it's an interesting aspect of human psychology that many people just don't want to have to reassess the things they thought were true when new information comes out well after the fact that differs from that original belief.

I just think it results in a bit of a double-standard when it happens though. Guys that in hindsight we know or strongly suspect were pumping tons of greenies are in the Hall and safe with their reputations, but by God, if the court of public opinion thinks you've been juicing (Sammy Sosa) watch out!

[KWhit]

Yeah, but the fact that the single season HR record fell like it did (and in fact was broken twice in one year and then again by Bonds) hurts these guys because it brings so much attention to what's going on - not to mention the fact that Aaron's recod looks like it will fall too. If these guys were suspected users and hit 40 HRs a season, it wouldn't be nearly as big a deal.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Chubby

the corked bat goes to show that Sosa has no problem cheating which leads more credence to the argument that he used steroids.

Agreed.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by KWhit

Yeah, but the fact that the single season HR record fell like it did (and in fact was broken twice in one year and then again by Bonds) hurts these guys because it brings so much attention to what's going on - not to mention the fact that Aaron's recod looks like it will fall too. If these guys were suspected users and hit 40 HRs a season, it wouldn't be nearly as big a deal.

Except it is. Palmeiro's a long shot to make the Hall of Fame now because of his involvement and, while he was actually caught, a lot of people are brushing all of the players from the 90s with the same broad strokes. He put up those 35-40 home run seasons for a decade and his six most comparable players are all in the HOF. Then again, I suppose that just says that he wasn't as good as his other suspected "cheaters".

SI

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Except it is. Palmeiro's a long shot to make the Hall of Fame now because of his involvement and, while he was actually caught, a lot of people are brushing all of the players from the 90s with the same broad strokes. He put up those 35-40 home run seasons for a decade and his six most comparable players are all in the HOF. Then again, I suppose that just says that he wasn't as good as his other suspected "cheaters".

SI

Yeah, but Palmeiro was actually caught. I meant that the guys catching serious heat for being suspected users are under much more scrutiny because of the otherworldly numbers they've put up.

I mean, you don't hear as much talk about Bret Boone as you do about Sosa and McGwire, right?

[Thornbird]

That reporter set him up

http://www.thornbird.net/football/