NFL "Teams Behaving Badly" Thread: 2015

[cuervo72]

Yeah - the thing is, if you are doing enough things that each help you "1", they eventually add up. Taping opponents. Under-inflating footballs. Goofy formations. Acquiring playbooks. Scoreboard "mistakes" (Ravens hurried playoff FG attempt). Tripping gunners.

Each of these things taken alone seem stupid and silly. Do enough of them? Yeah, they may help. Or maybe one thing helps a bit one game, something else helps another. There are more theories out there; a scoreboard outside of the stadium that plays replays which is also visible to the Pats sideline (but not the opponent). Messing with radio communications. Stuff like that. Sound ridiculous, but who the heck knows? I think Spygate shows that Belichick will try anything if he thinks he can get away with it. There are probably a number of things that he still does.

[molson]

Depending on what the actual conclusion is here, if there can be a definitive conclusion, Patriots fans shouldn't waste energy defending them. If they did this intentionally, they once again made your (our) football rooting life more annoying. Be disappointed at that, and at them.

"Everyone does it" or "they played better after they got caught" isn't a thing after they've already put everyone through the spygate thing. They need to be better than that, they don't get the benefit of the doubt. Maybe tampering with the balls didn't help them win the Colts game, but if that's what happened here, do we really think this is the first time this ever happened? I wouldn't assume that of other kinds of cheaters and rule-breakers, I'm not going to assume it about the Patriots.

I'm glad I'm not as intense a sports fan as I used to be, but super bowl parties and the friend and co-worker office football discussions are still potentially going to be a pain in the ass, some people have real hostility about this stuff. That's not my fault, it's in the Patriots' fault. If this was intentional, they don't have enough respect for their fans not to cut corners.

[Marmel]

Originally Posted by Grover

This is exactly like a pitcher doctoring a baseball.

Everybody does it.

One guy gets caught. Everybody freaks out.

It's like Pineda for the Yankees earlier this year.

Like Spygate, to me this is a non-issue. Everyone was recording everyone else's practices. Only one team got caught.

The lesson in all of this? The Patriots are merely very bad at hiding what they and everyone else is, in all likelihood, doing.

No matter what your stance on this is, using the "everyone else does it" excuse is about the weakest argument you could possibly make.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by molson

Depending on what the actual conclusion is here, if there can be a definitive conclusion, Patriots fans shouldn't waste energy defending them. If they did this intentionally, they once again made your (our) football rooting life more annoying. Be disappointed at that, and at them.

"Everyone does it" or "they played better after they got caught" isn't a thing after they've already put everyone through the spygate thing. They need to be better than that, they don't get the benefit of the doubt. Maybe tampering with the balls didn't help them win the Colts game, but if that's what happened here, do we really think this is the first time this ever happened? I wouldn't assume that of other kinds of cheaters and rule-breakers, I'm not going to assume it about the Patriots.

I'm glad I'm not as intense a sports fan as I used to be, but super bowl parties and the friend and co-worker office football discussions are still potentially going to be a pain in the ass, some people have real hostility about this stuff. That's not my fault, it's in the Patriots' fault. If this was intentional, they don't have enough respect for their fans not to cut corners.

Typical arrogant Patriots fan.

[Logan]

Kidding of course, and it's refreshing to see.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Logan

Typical arrogant Patriots fan.

It is kind of nice to see the tide turn over at the Patriots subreddit. They're plenty of posters using the points we've seen to defend them, but as the reality is setting in that we're going to have to talk about this for the next 10 years and the whole 2015 super bowl experience is going to be tainted by this, it's more and more, "fuck you Patriots." The stupidity and arrogance of cutting any corners when you have their reputation is mind-boggling.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by molson

Depending on what the actual conclusion is here, if there can be a definitive conclusion, Patriots fans shouldn't waste energy defending them. If they did this intentionally, they once again made your (our) football rooting life more annoying. Be disappointed at that, and at them.

"Everyone does it" or "they played better after they got caught" isn't a thing after they've already put everyone through the spygate thing. They need to be better than that, they don't get the benefit of the doubt. Maybe tampering with the balls didn't help them win the Colts game, but if that's what happened here, do we really think this is the first time this ever happened? I wouldn't assume that of other kinds of cheaters and rule-breakers, I'm not going to assume it about the Patriots.

I'm glad I'm not as intense a sports fan as I used to be, but super bowl parties and the friend and co-worker office football discussions are still potentially going to be a pain in the ass, some people have real hostility about this stuff. That's not my fault, it's in the Patriots' fault. If this was intentional, they don't have enough respect for their fans not to cut corners.

The one Pats fan in the world with a brain in his head today.

Must be because he lives 2500 miles from Boston in the clean air.

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by Grover

Everybody does it.

Like Spygate, to me this is a non-issue. Everyone was recording everyone else's practices. Only one team got caught.

The lesson in all of this? The Patriots are merely very bad at hiding what they and everyone else is, in all likelihood, doing.

In a scenario that everyone is taping other team practices, the odds that the Patriots (or any specific team) are the ones singled out: 1 in 32 (3.125%)

In a scenario where every team tampers with their balls prior to the game, the odds that the Patriots are singled out: 1 in 32 (3.125%)

The odds that the Patriots are the single team identified as being doing both of these things: 1 in 1024 (0.097%)

I know what you're saying, but I don't think it's that simple. A better explanation is that Belichick is a coach that is always looking for an edge for his team...whether they need it or not (I don't think they did against the Colts). It seems like he's a coach that is way more willing to step over the line than an average NFL coach, and that behavior is always going to put New England's franchise reputation on the line. If I were a Pats fan, I'd take the "So what" stance. The Pats have a coach who will straddle, bend and break the rules for a win. That's the kind of coach I would want.

[Grover]

Here's another thought, though is it possible Bellicheck had no idea this was happening? Could it be down to JUST Brady wanting the balls a certain way?

[ColtCrazy]

Originally Posted by VPI97

In a scenario that everyone is taping other team practices, the odds that the Patriots (or any specific team) are the ones singled out: 1 in 32 (3.125%)

In a scenario where every team tampers with their balls prior to the game, the odds that the Patriots are singled out: 1 in 32 (3.125%)

The odds that the Patriots are the single team identified as being doing both of these things: 1 in 1024 (0.097%)

I know what you're saying, but I don't think it's that simple. A better explanation is that Belichick is a coach that is always looking for an edge for his team...whether they need it or not (I don't think they did against the Colts). I seems like he's a coach that is way more willing to step over the line that an average NFL coach, and that behavior is always going to put New England's franchise reputation on the line. If I were a Pats fan, I'd take the "So what" stance. The Pats have a coach who will straddle, bend and break the rules for a win. That's the kind of coach I would want.

I'm in this camp. When Spygate happened, it was the "everyone does it defense" and now I'm hearing this one again. Okay, so if everyone does it, why is it the Patriots are the ones that keep getting caught?

And yeah, I understand Patriot fans defense. They win. Of course you are going to say "so what" to everything. It would be different is Belichick didn't have a great track record.

I'm also not stupid enough to believe that the balls impacted the game. The Colts do not match up well with NE for whatever reason. They would have lost anyway. but considering just how bad Luck did in the weather, and that Brady did better (again, not great, but certainly better) you can't rule out the balls weren't a small factor. Maybe it's 37-14 instead. But that's not the point.

And Belichick is a brilliant coach...how can he keep getting caught? This makes me believe these things are deliberate. You aren't a genius in every football regard yet somehow do things like this unless it's intentional.

[Julio Riddols]

I don't think it is a big deal, but if the balls were intentionally deflated, then its just stupid.

[Grover]

Originally Posted by ColtCrazy

And Belichick is a brilliant coach...how can he keep getting caught? This makes me believe these things are deliberate. You aren't a genius in every football regard yet somehow do things like this unless it's intentional.

But would they have been caught had Jackson not made the interception? I do like the theory. Get caught doing this, people talk about nothing else. Everyone forgets the Seahawks v. Patriots, etc.

[Kodos]

It's not the effect on the game that is big. It is the intentionally working to cheat in every way you can think of that is an issue.

DT rails when Republicans work to suppress minority voting, but if the Pats were doing it - It's no big deal, everyone does it. Why are you persecuting us?!

[Galaril]

I was listening to various talk heads and I agree with what they are saying . It would not have affected the outcome of a 45-7 game but the point is Belicheck is a habitual rule bender and a envelope pusher. The bigger issue is insubordination. The NFL is likely to punish him but taking draft picks doesn't hurt good teams like the Pats and with his track record of bending the rules it is another tarnishing of a already tarnished brand. They may suspend Belicheck for a season for this as shocking as that is to think. It is less about this instance and the body of work.

[Buccaneer]

It's weird for me to be a fan of a team that is hated so much. I had done the same thing with the axis of evil in the nfl in the 70s and in baseball against the Dodgers and of course, the Yankees. More recently against Giants and Ravens (maybe Steelers). It wasn't intentional, I just love ultra-intelligent playbooks and players and a consistently winning team when there has been so much up and downs and parity. I felt the same way of the 80/90s Niners.

[AlexB]

I'm a Dolphins fan so am supposed to hate the Pats and eveything they do, but this is a nothing story surely? It took two days for the issue to be raised, and the refs have the ball before every play - if the balls were underinflated to any significant degree they would have noticed there and then.

And if the balls were indeed this lower pressure but the refs didn't realise this despite handling and clasping the ball before every play, then the pressure difference can't have a significant effect (especially if the Colts balls were 'normal' but felt the same)

I personally think it's a load of BS from people who just don't like NE.

[HomerSimpson98]

Originally Posted by Grover

Here's another thought, though is it possible Bellicheck had no idea this was happening? Could it be down to JUST Brady wanting the balls a certain way?

Listen to this man! And on a similar path, did McCarthy ever say he knew of/approved/disapproved Rodgers admission earlier in the year?

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Logan

Kidding of course, and it's refreshing to see.

+1. It does suck when teams we root for do things like this ( assuming they did something wrong) and for the reasonable fans out there it sucks.

[ColtCrazy]

Originally Posted by Galaril

was listening to various talk heads and I agree with what they are saying . It would not have maybe affected the outcome but the point is Belicheck is a habitual rule bender and a envelope pusher. The bigger issue is insubordination. The NFL is likely to punish him but taking draft picks doesn't hurt good teams like the Pats and with his track record of bending the rules it is another tarnishing of a already tarnished brand. They may suspend Belicheck for a season for this as shocking as that is to think. It is less about this instance and the body of work.

I would say that the punishment from Spygate was a slap on the wrist. They obviously recovered well from the loss of a draft pick. 2nd offense, I would think, should be a suspension of Belichick. Something has to get through.

But, I just don't get why. He's a great coach. He's got a great QB. Why do it?

And while I know the Colts game wouldn't have mattered, what if they did this in the Ravens game as well?

[Arles]

Originally Posted by HomerSimpson98

Listen to this man! And on a similar path, did McCarthy ever say he knew of/approved/disapproved Rodgers admission earlier in the year?

Rodgers said he was frustrated with the league because they inflated the balls to the max (13.5 PSI) and the refs would deflate them to 13 before the game. His initial claim was if the ball is within regulations (even at the max), why deflate it to 13? Then, he was asked if he thought there should be a max, and he said "No". That's a pretty big difference from monkeying with the ball after they were inspected to be outside of the allowed range.

Chris Mortensen also just said that the 12th Pats ball was just above the minimum - but certainly close to being under-inflated as well. Plus, he said all 12 of the Colts balls were at 13 PSI (well above the min). So, it's pretty clear that someone associated with the Pats monkeyed with the balls and this wasn't some kind of "environmental issue".

Originally Posted by ColtCrazy

But, I just don't get why. He's a great coach. He's got a great QB. Why do it?

This is the bigger issue to me. It's almost like he has a pathological need to cheat. I would compare it to a kid studying for a week to get ready for a test, knowing all the answers but still smuggling in a cheat sheet. What's the point if you are prepared and why risk the punishment for such a marginal gain? Obviously, he doesn't respect the league's punishment system and given Goodell's history - he has a point there...

[Buccaneer]

To me, being a fanatical hater of a team is no different than being a fanatical lover of a team. Both produces a lot of irrationality, emotionalism and attacks/defenses, and credibility basically goes out the window.

All teams and players have to be within the established rules, which includes football psi, media interactions, drugs, bounties, filmings, on-field actions, etc. Can't excuse away one illegality while penalizing another.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by ColtCrazy

I would say that the punishment from Spygate was a slap on the wrist. They obviously recovered well from the loss of a draft pick. 2nd offense, I would think, should be a suspension of Belichick. Something has to get through.

I don't think you can suspend anyone unless they played a role in it. You have to figure out who made that call.

Loss of draft picks seems to be the right way to go if it's proven. Especially for a habitual offender.

[Chief Rum]

I'll bet the tapes from Spygate showed Belichek deflating footballs muhahaha.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by Ruckuz

Why 11 out of 12? If youre going to cheat, why half@ss it?
If your going to deflate that many balls to make it easier to throw why create a game plan opposite to your cheating intentions?

I don't know if the balls for kickoffs are in that group of 12, but my first thought after hearing 11 of 12 is that you'd want to keep 1 ball inflated normally (or over-inflated) for kicking & punting.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

I don't know if the balls for kickoffs are in that group of 12, but my first thought after hearing 11 of 12 is that you'd want to keep 1 ball inflated normally (or over-inflated) for kicking & punting.

The kicking balls are kept separate (I think there's 6 of them) and the league never lets them out of their site.

Honestly, moving forward, I think this is the best solution:

1. The league lets the teams hold the balls until an hour or two before gametime to "prep" them.
2. The refs then inspect and tag each ball.
3. If any ball is found out of the parameters for weight/PSI/whatever, a new ball is swapped in that hasn't been touched.
4. From that point on, only league appointed personnel hold the ball (like with the kicking balls).

Then, a team has to decide if really pushing the envelope on monkeying with the balls is worth the risk of a brand new ball being swapped in.

[lungs]

There's only one suitable punishment. Execution.

[molson]

The best potential punishment I've heard for Bellichick is to make him coach the pro bowl.

Edit: And then they could pro wrestling angle it - he has to win at the pro bowl to be allowed to coach in the super bowl. So he has to figure out a way to make all the AFC players that probably hate him win for him. I'd watch.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by Arles

The kicking balls are kept separate (I think there's 6 of them) and the league never lets them out of their site.

Honestly, moving forward, I think this is the best solution:

1. The league lets the teams hold the balls until an hour or two before gametime to "prep" them.
2. The refs then inspect and tag each ball.
3. If any ball is found out of the parameters for weight/PSI/whatever, a new ball is swapped in that hasn't been touched.
4. From that point on, only league appointed personnel hold the ball (like with the kicking balls).

Then, a team has to decide if really pushing the envelope on monkeying with the balls is worth the risk of a brand new ball being swapped in.

Isn't there some way to make the balls less slick from the factory so we dont need the added "roughing up" to make them game-ready?

I mean, its almost universally agreed that you have to do this. Why cant they figure out how to get the factory to either make them less slick, or adequately rough them up and be game-ready when they "open the box".

[ColtCrazy]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I don't think you can suspend anyone unless they played a role in it. You have to figure out who made that call.

Loss of draft picks seems to be the right way to go if it's proven. Especially for a habitual offender.

True, but if Belichick made the call, I think you have to suspend him. Saints HC was suspended for a year for BountyGate. If he's behind it, this is Belichick repeatedly hurting the integrity of the game. He's arrogant if so and needs to be hurt a little more than last time.

I kind of feel for Pats fans. It's hard to win arguments with people that just want to throw this stuff out there. Has to kind of harden you up as a fan, kind of like IU people were defending Knight's antics over the year. Yeah, he was an a-hole, but he was our a-hole.

[Arles]

Yeah, maybe there's a "league sanctioned process" that roughs them up prior to every game. The problem is certain QBs like different things. Rodgers likes the ball as inflated as possible, while Brady appears to prefer the opposite. I'm OK with each team doing their own thing as long as the ball ends up within the regulations.

[Grover]

The Ballghazi Takes Are Here, And They Are Fucking Insane

[molson]

I'm always OK with punishing the boss for the actions of subordinates, if that's what this was. It's the responsibility of the boss both to know what's going on and to hire good people. It's way too easy for the boss to keep himself willfully unaware to protect himself.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by ColtCrazy

True, but if Belichick made the call, I think you have to suspend him. Saints HC was suspended for a year for BountyGate. If he's behind it, this is Belichick repeatedly hurting the integrity of the game. He's arrogant if so and needs to be hurt a little more than last time.

It's interesting that there was never direct evidence that Peyton was involved, but Goodell suspended him anyway because he was the leader and let it happen. Not sure how that's different here or, to be honest, with the whole tape situation with the league and Rice. I guess the league's new motto is "the buck stops at the top unless it's the NFL commish or someone the commish is friends with".

[miked]

Don't they have hundreds of cameras all over the sideline? Can they go through footage to see if balls are being deflated?

[molson]

Originally Posted by Grover

The Ballghazi Takes Are Here, And They Are Fucking Insane

To the extent there's an overreaction, it was 100% predictable. Which is just one of the many reasons it was so important for them to run a tight ship. I'm positive Robert Kraft feels the same way.

[RainMaker]

The whole thing will be interesting because BountyGate really has backed Goodell into a corner.

[Subby]

If the league really cared they would have put better controls in place. Now they are caught looking like a bunch of dolts (again) and are going to get whipped up in to a reactionary frenzy (again).

#firegoodell

[Subby]

Originally Posted by Grover

The Ballghazi Takes Are Here, And They Are Fucking Insane

This should be stickied at the top of FOFC General Discussion.

"Well now, you wouldn't be a Boston fan if you didn't find a way to smuggle a hefty dose of self-pity in with all the cool shit your sports teams have done over the past decade. "Oh, my teams were-ah so good. BUT I CAN'T FACKIN' ENJOY IT LIFE WILL NEVAH BE THE SAME!"

[RainMaker]

The NFL is lucky that the game was a blowout. Imagine if this came down to a last minute field goal or something.

[Kodos]

Or the Baltimore game the week before. Oh, wait. That was close.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by VPI97

In a scenario that everyone is taping other team practices, the odds that the Patriots (or any specific team) are the ones singled out: 1 in 32 (3.125%)

In a scenario where every team tampers with their balls prior to the game, the odds that the Patriots are singled out: 1 in 32 (3.125%)

The odds that the Patriots are the single team identified as being doing both of these things: 1 in 1024 (0.097%)

I know what you're saying, but I don't think it's that simple. A better explanation is that Belichick is a coach that is always looking for an edge for his team...whether they need it or not (I don't think they did against the Colts). It seems like he's a coach that is way more willing to step over the line than an average NFL coach, and that behavior is always going to put New England's franchise reputation on the line. If I were a Pats fan, I'd take the "So what" stance. The Pats have a coach who will straddle, bend and break the rules for a win. That's the kind of coach I would want.

I'm not a Pats fan, not at all.
That said your statistical analysis is only valid if it is truly a random event.
You have a HC who mocks and antagonizes the lague at every turn. From his "sleveless" hoodies, to his injury report, to his mandatory press conferences BB never refrains from rubbing the league office nose in the steaming pile when an opportunity presents itself. So to think there isnt some agenda there to "get back at him" is incredibly naive.

Thats said every time the Cowboys HC position is open I always hope Bellichik will be the call from JJ.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Arles

Chris Mortensen also just said that the 12th Pats ball was just above the minimum - but certainly close to being under-inflated as well. Plus, he said all 12 of the Colts balls were at 13 PSI (well above the min). So, it's pretty clear that someone associated with the Pats monkeyed with the balls and this wasn't some kind of "environmental issue".

Is there an available link to this yet? Sounds like he may have said it directly on ESPN. Thanks.

[Desnudo]

Don't forget the snowplow game in 1982 everyone.

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by Subby

This should be stickied at the top of FOFC General Discussion.

"Well now, you wouldn't be a Boston fan if you didn't find a way to smuggle a hefty dose of self-pity in with all the cool shit your sports teams have done over the past decade. "Oh, my teams were-ah so good. BUT I CAN'T FACKIN' ENJOY IT LIFE WILL NEVAH BE THE SAME!"

+1

"If he did, that would be the greatest tragedy of our times! Like a MILLION Hindenburgs exploding at once, only they're all filled with puppies! EXPLODING PUPPIES EVERYWHERE BECAUSE TOM BRADY LIED TO US."

[Fidatelo]

This feels very similar to in hockey when a player uses a stick with an illegal curve. The NFL should just make a rule that an opposing coach can call for a ball pressure check at any one point during the game. If the ball is found to not be within the correct parameters then the team suffers a penalty (15 yards? Loss of possession? Finish the series with only 10 players on the field?) and if the coach who called for the check is wrong then his team suffers a penalty (15 yards? loss of a timeout and or challenge? 1 series with only 10 defenders on the field?).

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Subby

This should be stickied at the top of FOFC General Discussion.

"Well now, you wouldn't be a Boston fan if you didn't find a way to smuggle a hefty dose of self-pity in with all the cool shit your sports teams have done over the past decade. "Oh, my teams were-ah so good. BUT I CAN'T FACKIN' ENJOY IT LIFE WILL NEVAH BE THE SAME!"

I'm enjoying the role they're playing of the villain. Might as well embrace it. I can't wait for the Super Bowl ball pressure monitor cam.

[flounder]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

The NFL should just make a rule that an opposing coach can call for a ball pressure check at any one point during the game

Billy Martin approves.

[jeff061]

This whole thing is idiotic. Every single player does this and has been doing it since the sport existed.

I didn't think I was being too much of a homer about it. But there is just too much of a delta between everyone else and me right now. I can't believe this is even a topic of discussion still, it even seems to be gathering momentum. So I guess I'm just a homer and I'll grind my teeth in bitter silence.

[Grover]

Originally Posted by jeff061

This whole thing is idiotic. Every single player does this and has been doing it since the sport existed.

I didn't think I was being too much of a homer about it. But there is just too much of a delta between everyone else and me right now. I can't believe this is even a topic of discussion still, it even seems to be gathering momentum. So I guess I'm just a homer and I'll grind my teeth in bitter silence.

Oh, it's dumb as hell and I strongly dislike the Patriots.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Grover

This is exactly like a pitcher doctoring a baseball.

Everybody does it.

One guy gets caught. Everybody freaks out.

It's like Pineda for the Yankees earlier this year.

Like Spygate, to me this is a non-issue. Everyone was recording everyone else's practices. Only one team got caught.

The lesson in all of this? The Patriots are merely very bad at hiding what they and everyone else is, in all likelihood, doing.

And when the pitcher is caught what happens?

1. he tells the ump everybody does it and continues to pitch?

or

2. he's ejected from the game?