NCAA accuses Memphis Hoops of major violations

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by GoldenEagle

Maybe. But he would have been the first to have done so (Jennings was a 200, Rose a 2007). By all accounts, Jennings really struggled in Europe and actually hurt his draft status. I don't think you will see many go that route, unless they don't qualify. Hence the reason you need someone else to take the SAT for you.

I've never even heard of Brandon Jennings. You think, at this point, Europe is a viable alternative for a kid who can play well in college for one year, get on TV multiple times during the season, have a great run through the tournament and become a household name, and then parlay that into a top 5 draft pick status?

[molson]

I wish there could be some slap on the wrist to coaches even if there isn't direct evidence of their involvment. The only difference between Sampson, Haskins, and Calapari is that Calapari is slicker and smarter about letting others do the dirty work (Just my opinion)

But even if it doesn't go that far, the culture of cheating starts with the head coach. A coach can make it his business to know how his recruits are getting to campus, where they got the new car. It's not possible, of course, to stamp out 100% of issues by being aware of what's going on in your own program, but currently, there's no incentive to even try (and actually, a pretty strong incentive not to).

It's not enough for coaches to turn a blind eye, or even to just intentionally stay out the inner workings of the program.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I've never even heard of Brandon Jennings. You think, at this point, Europe is a viable alternative for a kid who can play well in college for one year, get on TV multiple times during the season, have a great run through the tournament and become a household name, and then parlay that into a top 5 draft pick status?

Jennings will still be a top 6 or 7 pick, and he got some nice bank to play in Europe. If he has a good rookie year I really think more kids will head off to Europe because you get money, you don't have to study or worry about school at all, and you're playing against grown men. That is experience you cannot get in college.

And like I said, if the new CBA does push the years between HS to the Pros to two years, I can see a lot of kids deciding to head to Europe because they want to get paid.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by GoldenEagle

Maybe. But he would have been the first to have done so (Jennings was a 2008, Rose a 2007). By all accounts, Jennings really struggled in Europe and actually hurt his draft status. I don't think you will see many go that route, unless they don't qualify. Hence the reason you need someone else to take the SAT for you.

What the NBA should do is allow players to be drafted but require that they stay in the NBADL for two years. This would instantly boost the popularity of the development league and teach young players about the lifestyle of the NBA. But that is probably for another thread.

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I've never even heard of Brandon Jennings. You think, at this point, Europe is a viable alternative for a kid who can play well in college for one year, get on TV multiple times during the season, have a great run through the tournament and become a household name, and then parlay that into a top 5 draft pick status?

Jennings is making over $1 million a year between his salary and endorsements. That makes it a viable alternative. He had problems with his game coming out of high school but word was he still would've been a top 5-10 pick if he was able to go straight to the NBA. He didn't do so well in Europe because he was playing against experienced guys 10 years older than him, but I'm willing to gamble his game is way above where it would be if he just dominated in college only to hit the NBA and experience the same sort of thing he saw in Europe. Jennings isn't the same type of PG as Rose - he was much more raw. He wouldn't have come in and dominated. If he's "ready" earlier than he would've been by going to Arizona (believe that was his destination), then it was a great move -- and he made a ton of money.

Oh, and he's projected to go in the 5-7 range this June from what I've seen. Best case he would've dominated college and maybe been ahead of Rubio as the #2 pick. Congrats, he ends up in Memphis. This isn't the NFL where your signing bonus is enormous. He's much better off going to Golden State at 7 or NY at 8.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Logan

Jennings is making over $1 million a year between his salary and endorsements. That makes it a viable alternative. He had problems with his game coming out of high school but word was he still would've been a top 5-10 pick if he was able to go straight to the NBA. He didn't do so well in Europe because he was playing against experienced guys 10 years older than him, but I'm willing to gamble his game is way above where it would be if he just dominated in college only to hit the NBA and experience the same sort of thing he saw in Europe. Jennings isn't the same type of PG as Rose - he was much more raw. He wouldn't have come in and dominated. If he's "ready" earlier than he would've been by going to Arizona (believe that was his destination), then it was a great move -- and he made a ton of money.

Oh, and he's projected to go in the 5-7 range this June from what I've seen. Best case he would've dominated college and maybe been ahead of Rubio as the #2 pick. Congrats, he ends up in Memphis. This isn't the NFL where your signing bonus is enormous. He's much better off going to Golden State at 7 or NY at 8.

Random thought, but if the 18-year old stud US player can't compete with Europeans 10 years older, it makes you wonder why more of those 28-year old Europeans aren't in the NBA.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Unbelievable to whom? The general public? Who cares! UK specifically stated that they vetted Calipari with the NCAA, including directly speaking to the guy who penned the letter to Memphis about these violations. Plus, IIRC, the chick who was with the NCAA and involved in the UMass investigation is now on staff at UK. If they had any real concerns above mere taint - especially since they were aware of this investigation at the time they interviewed him - then I think they might have acted differently.

I guess I'm trying to understand how an agent paying a player and somebody cheating on an SAT test is automatically the coach's fault, or suggests he was even aware of it at the time? I see a clear difference between these situations (at least, what we know at this point) and the Sampson or Clem Haskins' situations.

FWIW, I saw that one of the prominent UK bloggers is taking a stance similar to what you're proposing.......

Kentucky Basketball: Romancing the Stone*Thursday - A Sea Of Blue

[Fighter of Foo]

Originally Posted by molson

Random thought, but if the 18-year old stud US player can't compete with Europeans 10 years older, it makes you wonder why more of those 28-year old Europeans aren't in the NBA.

Why come here and sit on the bench when you can start in your own country and make the same or similar money?

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

You think, at this point, Europe is a viable alternative for a kid who can play well in college for one year, get on TV multiple times during the season, have a great run through the tournament and become a household name, and then parlay that into a top 5 draft pick status?

No, but its the only real alternative for kids who have the talent and inclination to be pro basketball players and cannot meet the academic standards to play college for their one forced year.

Oops, never mind, I see now that cheating on your SATs is another way.

I don't think Jennings hurt his stock. I think he's going to be drafted exactly where he would have had he played 2008-2009 at Arizona - in the top 10.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by molson

Random thought, but if the 18-year old stud US player can't compete with Europeans 10 years older, it makes you wonder why more of those 28-year old Europeans aren't in the NBA.

No one said he couldn't compete, but the holes in his game weren't going to disappear right away. Very few of the kids who went straight to the NBA before the age limit were immediately successful. More of them took a few years to develop their games to the point where they could contribute meaningful minutes (while some completely crashed and burned). Jennings is really talented but will take some time...but like I said, he's probably ahead of the curve than he would have been if he went to Arizona and got by on his pure physical talents.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Calipari was lucky to escape UMass without any significant sanctions. There was some dirty business going on there as well. His problem now is that a pattern of behavior is quickly developing. You can only feign ignorance so many times before it becomes unbelievable.

No, he wasn't, and no, there was nothing unusual going on at UMass compared to any other big-time basketball school. Look at Myron Piggie and Duke/Kansas, look at Jim Calhoun and the multiple incidents at UConn, look at any coach that brings in a one-and-done player, unless they're actually smart and well-off like Kevin Love.

The only reason there is such a cloud of suspicion around Calipari is that he made 2 non-BCS schools perennial contenders. Yes, he hangs around shady people. It's called the AAU scene. Other teams coaches and fans start most whispers merely due to jealousy.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Logan

No one said he couldn't compete, but the holes in his game weren't going to disappear right away. Very few of the kids who went straight to the NBA before the age limit were immediately successful. More of them took a few years to develop their games to the point where they could contribute meaningful minutes (while some completely crashed and burned). Jennings is really talented but will take some time...but like I said, he's probably ahead of the curve than he would have been if he went to Arizona and got by on his pure physical talents.

It's also Europe where they have a different culture and coaches don't like to play youngsters. Plus he's a PG - name a single successful PG to jump from HS to the NBA. The only place Jennings (or Rose if he went over) hurt himself was in marketing exposure.

[Logan]

Well, he already has a 4 year deal with Under Armour, who chose him as their first basketball endorser. I'm sure he'll do pretty well in that regard, comparable at least to what Rose earned.

[GoldenEagle]

Calipari is always going to go right up to the line. He may never cross it, but he is going to bend the rules as much as he can. When he was the coach of Memphis, I just kind of looked the other way and ignored the rumors. But there is a lot more of this that goes on that we know about. As someone else mentioned, almost every program in the country does the same thing. You have to play the game to get the top recruits. It is a dirty system that is not entirely the coaches fault. People around a star recruit expect to get paid.

My problem with Calipari right now is his complete disregard toward Memphis. He tooked signed recruits with him and did not even give the new coaching staff a crack at them. He also signed a PG in Eric Bledsoe that he probably really didn't need, but only because he was probably going to Memphis otherwise. I think his ego is huge and that he has to prove that Memphis did not win because of Memphis, but because of Calipari.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by GoldenEagle

As someone else mentioned, almost every program in the country does the same thing. You have to play the game to get the top recruits. It is a dirty system that is not entirely the coaches fault. People around a star recruit expect to get paid.

This isn't accurate either. Are there coaches that pay players or reward family/coaches directly or indirectly? Yes. Do the majority of BCS coaches do that? No.

[GoldenEagle]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

This isn't accurate either. Are there coaches that pay players or reward family/coaches directly or indirectly? Yes. Do the majority of BCS coaches do that? No.

Pay does not always have to be a direct monetary payment. It could be helping get the coach a better job or a promotion at work, a new car, whatever. I think you are very naive if you think the majority of college coaches don't play the "game", but I think we have been down that path before and I don't attend to go down it again.

[digamma]

Just for that, I'm not going to attend any Memphis basketball games next year.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by GoldenEagle

Pay does not always have to be a direct monetary payment. It could be helping get the coach a better job or a promotion at work, a new car, whatever. I think you are very naive if you think the majority of college coaches don't play the "game", but I think we have been down that path before and I don't attend to go down it again.

Yes, but things like hiring a coach to a position at the school is not against the rules. Also, business cars are provided to all coaches every year and is perfectly legitimate. We're specifically talking about breaking NCAA rules in this thread and that was specifically where my comment was directed.

Now, if you're arguing whether some of the things that are allowed are ethical or should really be allowed, that's another thread worth of arguments. But hiring a coach or providing vehicles to the staff is perfectly legitimate.

[GoldenEagle]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Yes, but things like hiring a coach to a position at the school is not against the rules. Also, business cars are provided to all coaches every year and is perfectly legitimate. We're specifically talking about breaking NCAA rules in this thread and that was specifically where my comment was directed.

Now, if you're arguing whether some of the things that are allowed are ethical or should really be allowed, that's another thread worth of arguments. But hiring a coach or providing vehicles to the staff is perfectly legitimate.

I was really talking more about a player's coach or a player's "handlers".

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by GoldenEagle

I was really talking more about a player's coach or a player's "handlers".

I was as well. Those people are routinely hired to positions in a program to land a player. KU makes a habit of hiring the fathers of players who are coaches at the high school level. Chalmers and Manning are just two examples. Mizzou did the same thing with Julian Winfield in the mid 90s. It may teeter on being unethical, but it's certainly not against the rules as long as it's nothing more than a coach being hired to a position.

I personally believe the practice should be against the rules, but it's not right now.

[watravaler]

Of course Calipari is dirty, along with quite a few NCAA coaches. He certainly isn't the exception to any rule, nor is Derrick Rose. With that being said, Calipari has so many yes men/handlers under him, he will always come out smelling like some type of flower.

Studs like Rose don't need college, but the NCAA obviously needs them since they got in bed with the NBA and their stupid "one year" rule. It's all a big joke...

Nevertheless, I think Europe will become the place to be for prospects like Rose, as it should be.

[Arles]

This is just getting weird. And, once again, shows what a joke the NCAA is. If they were truly worried about the "high standards of honesty and sportsmanship normally associated with the conduct and administration of intercollegiate athletics", they would have barred him from playing in the tourney. Instead, they let him play, cashed the checks from the Tourney, then sent an email out about a month after the championship telling Memphis that Rose was ineligible:

One month after Memphis lost to Kansas in overtime in one of the most thrilling national championship games in recent memory, the Tigers were rocked by an e-mail from the NCAA.

It was then that Memphis was first notified that star freshman point guard Derrick Rose, who helped the Tigers to an NCAA-record 38 wins and was soon going to become the No. 1 pick in the 2008 NBA draft by his hometown Bulls, had an invalidated standardized test score the previous year at Chicago's Simeon High School, according to multiple sources with direct knowledge of the e-mail.

The University of Memphis' legal counsel, Sheri Lipman, would not identify the student-athlete as Rose, but said Monday, "for the student-athlete, whoever that was, the first indication that we got was in early May [2008] that his score was being invalidated."

Memphis' administration knew that if this were indeed true, then coach John Calipari's team rode the superstar exploits of an ineligible player to an extraordinary season that was stopped just short of the program's first national title.

"It certainly came as a surprise," Lipman said of the e-mail.

Was it odd to be notified of a test score after the "student-athlete" played his freshman season? "Absolutely," Lipman said. "That's when we started with the NCAA, looking into the case."

Sources: Derrick Rose's test score in question at Memphis Tigers month after 2008 NCAA final - ESPN

[RainMaker]

The NCAA is a joke when it comes to bigger schools and penalties. I think the Jerry Tarkanian quote said it best, "the NCAA got so mad at Kentuck that they gave Cleveland State two more years of probation".

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

I was as well. Those people are routinely hired to positions in a program to land a player. KU makes a habit of hiring the fathers of players who are coaches at the high school level. Chalmers and Manning are just two examples. Mizzou did the same thing with Julian Winfield in the mid 90s. It may teeter on being unethical, but it's certainly not against the rules as long as it's nothing more than a coach being hired to a position.

I personally believe the practice should be against the rules, but it's not right now.

Since Kansas makes a habit of it, do you have more examples other then the two listed?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Since Kansas makes a habit of it, do you have more examples other then the two listed?

I know Memphis did it with DeJuan Wagner years ago. Think it was his father they hired for some job right after he signed.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I know Memphis did it with DeJuan Wagner years ago. Think it was his father they hired for some job right after he signed.

Wagner didn't play for Kansas

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Wagner didn't play for Kansas

Sorry, thought it was about all teams doing it. Didn't read thoroughly enough.

[Radii]

Robert Dozier of Memphis Tigers had SAT test invalidated - ESPN

Pretty long article but some highlights:

According to Dozier's academic records, which were obtained by ESPN.com through Georgia open records laws, he took the SAT for the first time on Dec. 6, 2003, about five months after he verbally committed to play for the Tigers. Dozier scored a 1,260 of a possible 1,600 (the highest score at the time) on the test, according to the records.

Dozier later reneged on his commitment to Memphis, and signed a national letter of intent with Georgia in March 2004. But Georgia admission officials were immediately alarmed by Dozier's high SAT score, which they claimed didn't correlate with his below-average academic performance at Lithonia (Ga.) High School or his previous scores on the PSAT, a preparatory exam for the SAT.

In its report to UGA president Michael Adams, the school's faculty admissions review committee, which evaluates the admission applications of prospective student-athletes, recommended a "strong deny" in Dozier's case.

"Of greatest concern is the gross inconsistency in his testing record," the committee wrote in its report. "His [SAT verbal score of 590] would place him in the 76th percentile nationally, while his [SAT math score of 670] places him in the 89th percentile. This raises a serious red flag, since his PSAT from October 2000 places him in the 4th percentile nationally in both areas. Such a remarkable improvement in testing abilities in the span of nine months is highly improbable, particularly for a student with a C-minus record in average college prep courses in high school."

...

ETS officials offered Dozier a chance to validate his earlier scores by taking the SAT again. Dozier took the test in July 2004 and scored 720 -- 540 points lower than his earlier score.

As a result, ETS officials canceled the scores from his first SAT attempt. Adams denied Dozier's admissions application to UGA on Aug. 18, 2004.

Go Memphis!!!

[molson]

The LSAT requires fingerprinting, maybe the SAT should go that route. I mean, you can just take a test for someone else? I imagine that's rampant, even outside athletics. I wonder how much you can make being a professional SAT test taker.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by Radii

Robert Dozier of Memphis Tigers had SAT test invalidated - ESPN

Pretty long article but some highlights:




Go Memphis!!!

Actually this article has the timing wrong on this. I was listening to Garry Parrish on the radio today, who covered Memphis at the time, he said that the test taken after Dozier reneged on his commitment to Memphis. He basically laid out the time line, as well as mentioned that one of the guys at the Georgia program at the time was well known for getting guys to pass the SATs.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Radii

Robert Dozier of Memphis Tigers had SAT test invalidated - ESPN

Pretty long article but some highlights:




Go Memphis!!!

wow. Dozier might be the dumbest person alive. 4th percentile? Wow.

[Ksyrup]

If you're going to pay someone to take this kind of test, wouldn't you want someone who's NOT going to score too highly? Or did he just say fuck it, if I'm going this route I might as well qualify for Duke and not limit my options?

[molson]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

If you're going to pay someone to take this kind of test, wouldn't you want someone who's NOT going to score too highly? Or did he just say fuck it, if I'm going this route I might as well qualify for Duke and not limit my options?

Well, he did finish in the 4th percentile....Which is apparently all the smarts you need to crack the SAT security measures, though not quite high enough to do so without getting caught.

[Ksyrup]

Hey, he's no Vince Young but he's getting there.

[Neuqua]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

wow. Dozier might be the dumbest person alive. 4th percentile? Wow.

hmmm..

[Radii]

hah good catch neuqua.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Damn, Neuqua beat me to it.

[MrBug708]

What does that say about a Memphis education? 4 years to graduate from that school with that SAT score?

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

What does that say about a Memphis education? 4 years to graduate from that school with that SAT score?

That their tutors go above and beyond?

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

If you're going to pay someone to take this kind of test, wouldn't you want someone who's NOT going to score too highly? Or did he just say fuck it, if I'm going this route I might as well qualify for Duke and not limit my options?

I'm no expert but doesn't the clearing house use a sliding scale in which the SAT score required is inversely proportional to the GPA? Maybe, he needed a high score and just overshot it?

[Radii]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

What does that say about a Memphis education? 4 years to graduate from that school with that SAT score?

I love poking fun at athletic programs as much as the next guy, but I hope you're not seriously suggesting Memphis is a bad university for the general population(or any different from UCLA or any other division I school, for that matter) b/c a football/basketball star who probably wasn't smart enough to get a degree found a way to get one?

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by Radii

I love poking fun at athletic programs as much as the next guy, but I hope you're not seriously suggesting Memphis is a bad university for the general population(or any different from UCLA or any other division I school, for that matter) b/c a football/basketball star who probably wasn't smart enough to get a degree found a way to get one?

That damn Robert Dozier. He has discredited all Memphis graduates everywhere. My wife is going to get stripped of her PhD and fired from her professor position because she got her BS at Memphis.

Shit. We are so done.

[Radii]

Sorry to hear your wife went to such a shitty school Pumpy

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Whoops! A freelance Lexington photographer unknowingly caught Calipari in a NCAA violation with a photo he took. No coach is allowed to instruct or even watch off-season scrimmages or practices by their players. Yet he's doing exactly that in this photo......

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2009/0720...parits_576.jpg

[DaddyTorgo]

LMAO

[molson]

I think Calapari should be applauded for exceeding all reasonable expectations about how long it would take him to start violating rules at Kentucky.

[JeeberD]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Whoops! A freelance Lexington photographer unknowingly caught Calipari in a NCAA violation with a photo he took. No coach is allowed to instruct or even watch off-season scrimmages or practices by their players. Yet he's doing exactly that in this photo......

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2009/0720...parits_576.jpg

They're just doing calisthenics. I'm sure he left when the basketball playing began. Yeah, that's the ticket...

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Whoops! A freelance Lexington photographer unknowingly caught Calipari in a NCAA violation with a photo he took. No coach is allowed to instruct or even watch off-season scrimmages or practices by their players. Yet he's doing exactly that in this photo......

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2009/0720...parits_576.jpg

I see no definitive proof that this is in fact John Calipari .

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

In related breaking news, the freelance photographer has been reported missing by his family. They report he never returned from a photo shoot at the UK campus.

[fantom1979]

If Nike was running that practice, there is no way that picture would have got out.