Lance Armstrong - well ... damn

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Vacating wins is the stupidest thing ever. No matter what sport.

I'll second this, especially given that the runners up in a number of those races have already gone down for doping.

Originally Posted by Thomkal

Or there really could be actual evidence that the USADA has now that shows Armstrong cheated and he knows that and doesn't want it revealed. So he stops fighting them so the evidence does not come out and ruin his reputation and legacy for ever.

This is what I suspect as well.

Originally Posted by Thomkal

Of course he's never failed a drug test, he's been investigated by the US government and others and they chose not to pursue it, so it could be a witch hunt by the USADA.

I'm also guessing that while damning to the public, the evidence available wouldn't stand up in a court room. However, if you are an organization that is setup to be the the accuser, judge, and jury that doesn't present so much of a hurdle as it would for a federal prosecutor.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

This is what I suspect as well.

And there's a process they can pursue through the international agency if that's the case. There is literally no reason for USADA to be trying to throw its weight around like this except if it's a pissing contest (er, pun unintended).

If Armstrong is really guilty and they have evidence of it, there is an established procedure they can follow.

They're not following it, which leads me to believe the evidence is circumstantial at best or that they don't want some other agency taking credit, rules be damned.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by kmbgolf

bill giffords piece in the mag called outside,gives some good info on his so called charity

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor....html?page=all

Interesting article. Thanks for posting it.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

How does the USADA have the authority to take his titles away from him?

The short answer is "no", but basically it's "yes". USADA has to convince USA Cycling and UCI that there is a ground for suspension, in 99 out of 100 cases they will follow up. But this is bound to be the 1 out of 100, things could be sent to WADA (World Anti-Doping Agency) next, even by UCI itself, to make a decisive decission on when the suspension starts. Then it can still be sent to CAS (Court of Arbitration of Sports) to make a final decission on the issue of taking away the titles. The Alberto Contador from last year showed us that a lack of evidence isn't enough to avoid suspension. All in all, USADA doesn not make the final decission, but if their evidence is strong enough, they will provide the grounds for taking away victories.

The life-long ban is a different story. It should never get past CAS. For normal cases 2 years is the maximum for a first violation.

[MizzouCowboy]

Originally Posted by Bobble

"Hey, I was the first man to walk on the moon. You can't take that away from me!"

With 7 Tour titles, being the first man to walk on the moon, and being a great jazz musician, all the while banging Cheryl Crow, how could he not be suspected of PED use?

But seriously, I would not be surprised if he was doping. The little naive kid in me wants to believe that most pro athletes are on the up and up, but the me that's in reality just sees to much money to be made/lost to not gain a competitive advantage, especially when they see it as just trying to keep up with the other athletes.

[clemsonfan]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

But if the whole process is slanted to where NOT GUILTY would never be the outcome, what would he gain by going through a process and having GUILTY splashed all over the world?

I second this. He had nothing to gain by continuing on with the process.

[clemsonfan]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

It is when there's probably not a clean cyclist in the whole damn sport - at least at the time Armstrong won his titles.

Absolutely. No one was clean.

[RendeR]

The guy driving this case has had a hardon for Lance from long before those titles were even won. I wish I could remember the article, it was ages ago. There ws a dispute between them and Lance basicaly said "fuck you I'm Lance Armstrong" and everyone stood behind Lance and the other guy got ignored.

ANyone else remember this? I'm getting nothing on my google-FU

[bhlloy]

Even if you don't buy the "it's cycling, everybody was using" (and for the record, I think that about other sports as well), how do you explain Hamilton and Hincapie and Andreu and Landis and all the other people they have drudged up to support the claims that he doped over a number of years? And the ties to the shady doctor? Are they all jealous? All being paid off because of a vendetta?

Seems like the evidence here is far more damning than say a Barry Bonds or a Roger Clemens, and yet there are still people defending him. Doesn't make a whole hell of a lot of sense to me but oh well.

[bronconick]

Well, then they can bring the evidence out. Everyone else that's been busted, suspended,and had titles stripped have had the actual evidence brought out to the public. They've just been boasting/gloating how they can nail him for years now. Do it already.

[bhlloy]

He's the one who just turned down his day in court.

Which is another thing I don't understand - what was the USADA going to do? Go to court and perjure themselves? Say "oh, we were actually making all this stuff up and we don't have any evidence" - you'd end up on a charge for that as well. There might be a lot of people who don't like Lance Armstrong but I doubt any of them are willing to go to jail over it.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

He's the one who just turned down his day in court.

Which is another thing I don't understand - what was the USADA going to do? Go to court and perjure themselves? Say "oh, we were actually making all this stuff up and we don't have any evidence" - you'd end up on a charge for that as well. There might be a lot of people who don't like Lance Armstrong but I doubt any of them are willing to go to jail over it.

They weren't going to court. It was going to be arbitration. Huge difference between the two.

[bhlloy]

If they were making shit up it could have ended up in any number of courts and he could have reamed them. Same as he could have reamed the French if his 99 tests were actually clean.

Armstrong wasn't debating the facts of the case, he was debating jurisdiction. He didn't want all the cyclists that the USADA got on record saying he was dirty as hell getting out, so he shut the whole thing down.

And it seems to be working judging by the number of people who think this is all a giant conspiracy to get poor little Lance. BS.

[spleen1015]

There was a guy on Dan Patrick today. I didn't listen to the whole thing, but he talked about Lance was using PEDs some how with blood transfusions and there are no tests to detect what Lance was doing. He wouldn't go into much more detail than that.

[cartman]

Don't let your misunderstanding of how arbitration works get in the way of your rant.

There can be limited appeals from arbitration, so even if it were, as you stated, they were making shit up, that doesn't guarantee that a court could or would hear an appeal.

He has agreed to arbitration with UCI, and if the USADA wanted to present their evidence there they could have. But the USADA insisted on holding the arbitration themselves, over the objections of the UCI and US Cycling.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by kmbgolf

bill giffords piece in the mag called outside,gives some good info on his so called charity

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor....html?page=all

I've read the Outside takedown piece before, and I get the point. Many people believe that Livestrong is a research-focused outfit, and it isn't. While they don't claim to be, it's also pretty arguable that they willingly draft on that reputation to gain support. (see what I did there?) Okay, fair point.

So, they engage in a variety of other educational, beneficial and charitable work, but not really scientific research. Okay.

And that leads to the label "so called charity." I'm not feeling it.

[molson]

It'd be a lot easier if we just threw in the towel on the drug stuff and just made it a free for all in sports.....Things would be so much more honest and transparent. I guess it wouldn't be fair to the people who didn't want to risk damage to their bodies, but, it's not fair to them now anyway. I don't know if it would be a GOOD thing, but it'd definitely be a lot easier.

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by cartman

Don't let your misunderstanding of how arbitration works get in the way of your rant.

There can be limited appeals from arbitration, so even if it were, as you stated, they were making shit up, that doesn't guarantee that a court could or would hear an appeal.

He has agreed to arbitration with UCI, and if the USADA wanted to present their evidence there they could have. But the USADA insisted on holding the arbitration themselves, over the objections of the UCI and US Cycling.

But the details would be in the public domain - if you were innocent, isn't that what you want?

[cartman]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

But the details would be in the public domain - if you were innocent, isn't that what you want?

Again, arbitration isn't the same a courtroom. There is no requirement that what happens in arbitration be made public.

[QuikSand]

And, for what it's worth, there's a rather strong argument that the effort to address cancer has focused too much on research, and too little on other things -- citizen education on prevention, support for the stricken, and the like. As we actively walk for the cure and cook for the cure, not so many people realize that if they just walked more and cooked smarter, there'd be a lot fewer cases to be cured.

[Toddzilla]

When a guy maintains he's clean by repeatedly saying "All my tests are clean" rather than saying "I'm clean", it kinda takes away from his credibility.

[MIJB#19]

The cycling reporters in the Netherlands and Belgium are mostly baffled about the seemingly out-of-nowhere end of Armstrong's usual fighting spirit. They suspect it could be a trick, because it being so out of character, but to what point? The usually well-informed reporters either think it's a way to keep the dirty details hidden, to save the faces of people involved, or even to save the sport entirely. Theories of the UCI being involved, because of the lesser of all evils argument, are widely supported as well.

A common sentiment is that it's pointless to strip the victories, because about 2/3rd of the other riders that finished in the top10 behind Armstrong have been suspended for doping use or are linked with large-schale-doping projects. Either the victory would carry over to another rider with an asterisk, or it just proves that Armstrong was still the very best of the EPO generation.

[Bobble]

Originally Posted by MizzouCowboy

With 7 Tour titles, being the first man to walk on the moon, and being a great jazz musician, all the while banging Cheryl Crow, how could he not be suspected of PED use?

Is it still "banging" if you only have the one ball? More like bumping. He's bumping Cheryl Crow.

[kcchief19]

OK, I think I've reached my saturation point. I'm seeing too many people who vilified Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens and others giving a free pass to Armstrong. Nevermind that there is just as much evidence of Armstrong's guilt as with those two, much less that there are more eyewitnesses against Armstrong.

The funny thing is that most people who are defending Armstrong say they don't know if he cheated or not. That's far from having supporters who insist you didn't cheat. When even your biggest boosters grudgingly admit it's 50/50 you cheated, you probably cheated.

I think what set me over the edge on this one was Gregg Doyel re-endorsing his idiotic column from January, in which he argues it doesn't matter if Armstrong cheated because he "helped save lives," and how his story is different because he cheated to recover from near death, not just get bigger and stronger like Barry Bonds.

First, Lance Armstrong didn't save anyone's life. His life wasn't saved through strong mental spirit or Livestrong. His life was saved because he had access to world-class medical care the rest of us can only dream of. The "hero" who helped save lives is his team of doctors.

Second, for Armstrong to recover from "near death" to win seven straight Tours while everyone else was doping, Armstrong's level of doping was unprecedented. If the story is ever to come out, my guess is that we will learn that Armstrong and his team was at the forefront of doping. He paved the way for everyone else.

As for his foundation, all Lance Armstrong brings to the table is his name. He's fortunate that there are people who believed his brand could help sell cancer prevention. The Lance Armstrong Foundation is a dodge; a tax dodge, a PR dodge, you name it. The only difference between his foundation and the foundation of every other professional athlete who creates their own foundation is that enormous financial and PR success -- and Lance had nothing to do with that other than show up.

I'm not bagging on Livestrong. They do great work. I'm taking care of a mom with heart failure, kidney failure and diabetes. When I search for tips on how to take care of her, for recipes and other help, invariably Livestrong shows up in the search results and it's a great help. I just feel bad that the good work they do serves as a shield for one of the two greatest cheaters in sports history.

[bhlloy]

I don't know enough about the charity to comment on the rest of that, but I couldn't agree more with the first couple of paragraphs

[RendeR]

Someone clarify for me:

Testoterone used in LowT therapy is in and of itself a steroid, yes?

If he lost a testicle, would he not invariably be forced to engage in that very same therapy just to remain healthy? let alone heal and recover?


If thats the case, could that not have boosted him physically as he recovered, whether or not he continued to be in that therapy during his tours?


Not trying to defend, but the man passed every test not (by the apparent details that came out at the time) setup to create a failure as the French did. There has to be some validity in the fact that random drug testing never actually found him to be using?


Or do we just assume he's cheating so he must have found a way around it?

Again, not trying to defend him, I honestly think he must have at some point, but I also understand that steroids are a huge platform for recovery from disease and surgery. At some stage he HAD to have been on some sort of steroid just to recover as well as he did.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

When a guy maintains he's clean by repeatedly saying "All my tests are clean" rather than saying "I'm clean", it kinda takes away from his credibility.

True, but it is one step up from, "I've never failed a drug test!" during an era where there was no drug testing in your sport (Bonds, Clements, etc.)

[cartman]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Someone clarify for me:

Testoterone used in LowT therapy is in and of itself a steroid, yes?

If he lost a testicle, would he not invariably be forced to engage in that very same therapy just to remain healthy? let alone heal and recover?


If thats the case, could that not have boosted him physically as he recovered, whether or not he continued to be in that therapy during his tours?


Not trying to defend, but the man passed every test not (by the apparent details that came out at the time) setup to create a failure as the French did. There has to be some validity in the fact that random drug testing never actually found him to be using?


Or do we just assume he's cheating so he must have found a way around it?

Again, not trying to defend him, I honestly think he must have at some point, but I also understand that steroids are a huge platform for recovery from disease and surgery. At some stage he HAD to have been on some sort of steroid just to recover as well as he did.

He also underwent EPO therapy as part of his cancer treatment.

[JediKooter]

Wait...this guy rides a bike, right? I'm not getting the outrage. Sorry.

Now, banging Sheryl Crow? I totally get that.

[CrimsonFox]

The outrage comes from the fact that he is a pretty person and the fantasy of many women who put up with ugly husbands. Therefore he must be innocent.

[JediKooter]

So you're saying it's like 50 Shades of Lance?

[Rizon]

One does not simply get their balls chopped off and cycle into Mordor.

[Blackadar]

Do I think he doped? Sure. Then again, so did virtually every other professional cyclist during that time, so there's no big advantage there. I think that every other top 3 finisher during Lance's tour titles were found to have doped. So I don't care all that much, which puts my position 100% consistent with Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens.

And Lance didn't even start this. Guys were doping long before him..and long after him. I do find it interesting that he finished 3rd even though the French had it out for him when he came back from being retired. Either he wasn't doping then, or found a way around it (which I think unlikely). In either case, that's remarkable.

What I DO care about is that this is a railroad job by the USADA. It's an obvious railroad job and a power grab. Because no organization should be involved in railroading anyone. Someone over there has small-dick syndrome. I don't think they had any more evidence. I think they were going to trot out the usual line of suspects (remember, I think Lance DID dope up) and then present a foregone conclusion. Then they can beat their chest and whoop it up, but it's a sham and it's easily seen through.

[chadritt]

Wait....if you think he did it then how is it a horrible thing that they keep trying to convict him? Thats their thing, to nail people who did what youre saying he did.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by chadritt

Wait....if you think he did it then how is it a horrible thing that they keep trying to convict him? Thats their thing, to nail people who did what youre saying he did.

He'd rather not have the judgement come from a kangaroo court.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by cartman

He'd rather not have the judgement come from a kangaroo court.

Exactly.

It's the fairness of the process that's important. If it's not fair, any judgments they make aren't valid ones.

And why bother? Everyone else doped. If you throw out the dopers, there's no cycling awards to be given out for about 15 years. That includes the Tour du France, the Tour de Italia and every other damn race. Do we see anyone going after those winners with such a vengeance? No? Then what we have here is a witch hunt, nothing more.

[digamma]

It's not really that he doped that bothers me, it's that he trashed the others who got caught before him.

Lance may live forever, and I respect that. If he had said, we've figured out how to do this in the safest way possible. We've done a lot of work. It helps us to go faster, recover quicker and be stronger than we ever have before. Fine. I respect that too. But the constant disposing of the Landises and Hamiltons seems more than a little silly in retrospect.

[Sun Tzu]

Okay...let me get this straight. This is how everything went down...in a rough order.

1.) Lance Armstrong was *probably* taking some PED's and won a shit-ton of titles.

2.) The people racing against Lance Armstrong were also taking PED's.

3.) Lance beat cancer, and returned to win again, thus making him a inspiration to everyone with cancer.

4.) Lance has dedicated half his life and countless millions to helping others with cancer.

Therefore, Lance is a piece of trash, a cheater, and should be essentially tarred and feathered for the rest of his life.

What the fuck is wrong with people? GET SOME F'ING PERSPECTIVE.

[Karlifornia]

I think its pretty clear that lance was a Dick to everyone around him after he was deified, and they resented that. That doesn't make him guilty of anything other than being a dick, but people aren't going to take it easy on you

[Sun Tzu]

I hear Gandhi could be a real prick sometimes too.

[Philliesfan980]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

I hear Gandhi could be a real prick sometimes too.

Is there anyway you can get banned again?

[molson]

There are at least half a dozen people on my facebook feed that would put Armstrong way above Ghandi.

[Sun Tzu]

If you're taking what I said as "Gandhi and Lance are equal in humanity and cultural significance" then...

Seriously. If you don't see the very obvious parallels in my analogy...less drugs, more water.

My thoughts:

If person X does a great deal to help humanity/people in need, but person X is also known to rub some people the wrong way, then the people that he rubbed the wrong way can cry a river, build a bridge, and get over it.

I could really care less if someone is an asshole. If they dedicate a major portion of their life to love and savings lives regardless of race, religion, or ethnicity, they've earned the license to be an asshole.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by cartman

He'd rather not have the judgement come from a kangaroo court.

That's the thing ... it's not a kangaroo court. Just because Lance calls it that doesn't make it so.

If he didn't want to be tried this way, he had two choices: don't ride in the tour or don't cheat.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

but person X is also known to rub some people the wrong way,

Doesn't Sandusky have his own thread?

[cartman]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

That's the thing ... it's not a kangaroo court. Just because Lance calls it that doesn't make it so.

If he didn't want to be tried this way, he had two choices: don't ride in the tour or don't cheat.

It's not just Lance saying that the USADA didn't have jurisdiction in this matter, it was also USA Cycling and the UCI. He's made it clear that he would submit to arbitration with the UCI, and the USADA could present the evidence there. As for your second part, he would have had to have been a psychic, as the USADA didn't begin operations until October of 2000, after he'd already won two TdF titles.

[Lathum]

This is total BS and an insult to a guy who has raised hundred of millions for cancer research

Lance Armstrong not allowed to run in Chicago marathon, report says - ESPN

[Ksyrup]

What's next? His HOA bans him from jogging around the neighborhood?

[ISiddiqui]

The city is upholding the ruling made by the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency that Armstrong not only be stripped of his seven Tour de France cycling titles but banned for life from all sports under their purview as well.

Rules be rules.

[Logan]

Lance Armstrong part of cycling's 'most successful doping program,' USADA says – This Just In - CNN.com Blogs