Things a Game Did Right

[path12]

I agree with many of the impressions already given (especially Imperialism 2, that still gets fired up a couple times per year), but one game I haven't seen mentioned is Master of Magic. I loved the huge variety of options available via spellbooks and traits and enjoyed exploring the map and clearing lairs and magic nodes like no other game.

The AI is pretty brain dead, but it is still a blast to just explore and then rampage.

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by SportsDino

All right, i know I still need to contribute, but lot of cool stuff so far.

Another possible diversion, what are some of the best done characters in a game you have played, and of course the important thing, WHY?!

The best characters, whether video game, prose, television, film, etc. all have one element in common - they create a sense of emotional investment in the consumer of that character and his/her story. They don't have to love them, don't even have to like them. Hate's a form of investment too, after all.

Video game characters share in common with literature that much of what is revealed about them is through text. However, VGC also are, like film and television, composed of a visual representation that also influences how players perceive and interpret them.

So in essence, you'll need to have both if you want to make character a central focus of a video game.

There's the obvious, such as having relevant details of a character's background and appearance in mind. Not only does a background help you to understand where the character comes from and how it influences their interaction with other characters and events in the game, but it provides you opportunity for more material in the game itself that could be revealed through, say, a sidequest or something.

But the majority of a character's revelation in video games comes through dialogue. If you don't have an ear for dialogue, forget about making character a key part of a video game. This is the biggest problem I have with a lot of anime. Much of it is terribly written tweener type dialogue riddled with cliches and forced humor references that create, at absolute best, a thin veneer of two-dimensionality that's really just a one note when all is said and done. Note: Several of Atlus's games suffer from this. Disgaea, we're looking at you.

Dialogue should match character, situation and setting. While there's nothing wrong with the occasional anachronistic comic character, too many are irritating. An example of excellent dialogue matching character, situation and setting is Kyle Hyde in Hotel Dusk: Room 215. At first glance, the dialogue is plain and cliched, for both Kyle and many of the other other characters. This would be bad in normal circumstances. But in this case, these are characters who do not have the education for a higher level, more varied speech, so it's appropriate and Hyde, as a former cop, would be aware of this and so tone down his level of dialogue to fit with it (Incidentally, another character -is- more elevated and educated and his contrast to the rest of the characters in the game is striking).

The sparse dialogue also works with the artwork of the game to inspire the mood of noir literature and film, a tradition it's clearly working in, and that atmosphere also influences the player's response and reaction to it.

I could ramble on more if you like, but I think I've said enough for now... and probably sound like a pompous ass on top of it.

[Bobble]

I wouldn't call the FM/CM series "immersion" as much as sports management (which I know is sort of a poor term). You're managing all important aspects of believable "players" while feeling you can influence in-game performance as well as the team's progression. OOTP is very close but you don't get quite the same in-game control, especially with the in-game control you have in FM2010.

I was going to put down FM/CM as more addiction but he CIV series is the best example I've seen of this (barring Civ III, I guess). It's one-more-turn-ism at it's best. I have honestly told myself I would just do one more turn or so for about 4 straight hours -- on more than one occassion.

I'd throw Morrowind out as best one I can think of for immersion. You were wandering around a world freely in the skin of your character. You weren't stuck on the plot railroad tracks of most games. You weren't looking top-down or isometrically at your guy. You saw the world as he would have. There was an amount of meta-gaming but it was very easy to avoid that.

If not Morrowind, I'd throw out Mafia for immersion. It was a game that wasn't a shooter. It wasn't a driving game. It was an adventure game. They absolutely nailed the period feel.

Honorable mention for ambiance would be the Fallout series, No One Lives Forever, and probably a bunch of others I'm forgetting.

For tactical strategy, I like Steel Panthers (plus it's free). For grand strategy, I don't think anyone's nailed it yet.

I know I'm kind of mixing genres of games with aspects of games. Someone ought to come up with a list and we all submit candidates.

[RainMaker]

College Hoops 2K Series - I really think this was the first sports series that focused a lot on little details of a dynasty/franchise mode. I really got into everything involved in it. There is really no game I can think of on the console that comes close to matching the detail and sophistication this series had when it came to that mode.

The Show - Really the first game I can think of that just nailed the "Be a Pro" style mode well. Really made you feel like you were working your way up through the minors and having to compete for positions. Loved the minor league teams being in it and even keeping track of standings/playoffs in that. Seems a lot of other sports games are taking their queue from them.

GTA: San Andreas - I loved the 3 city setup with each one being unique (Wasn't their a Castro district in the San Francisco remake?). Enjoyed having to travel through the country to get to each city and it just made the game feel massive. It also did a nice job of recreating the cities for that generation and getting some of the historical stuff down. While I know Vice City aimed at Miami, it didn't really seem to nail the city right. This game did and was an absolute blast to play. I also liked that you had more options for transportation including a jet pack and jumbo airliner with parachute. My favorite GTA by a mile and was disappointed that Liberty City didn't take us outside the city at all or give us some better transportation options.

Bioshock - Thought they really handled the story mode well and made you feel as if you were playing a movie. The voice acting and music that would chime in at perfect times really made it immersive.

GTA Series - Now there may have been a game to do this before, but the open sandbox environment was a nice addition to gaming. Not being tied into storylines and being able to enjoy the game by just going around and causing havoc.

[DaddyTorgo]

i should bust out GTA more often

[DaddyTorgo]

FM absolutely wins hands-down for "one more turn-ism" IMHO. There have been times I've said at 2am "okay I gotta go to bed" and at 5am i'm still sitting there saying "man i really gotta go to bed."

[Honolulu Blue]

Originally Posted by SportsDino

what are some of the best done characters in a game you have played, and of course the important thing, WHY?!

It depends on what you mean by "character". Let me give you a few examples:

* In many of the sports career text sims I've played, there have been players that have caught my attention, either because I designed them that way (John Christopher, El Loco) or they came up naturally (The Devastator, That Idiot, Sweet Cheater). I can still see John cutting off a sure base hit up the middle and gliding and easy throw to first, can see El Loco throwing a 3-2 knuckler that dances on the inside corner, can see The Devastator making tackle after tackle, see That Idiot getting burned time after time, and see Sweet Cheater making her move down the stretch. Can't you? It helps to write dynasty reports, but I've always had an active imagination.

* A more traditional example of character, perhaps, is the King in Colonization Classic. Here's a typical mid-game message:

"In honor of my 14th wife, I have decided to raise your tax rate to 42%. You may kiss my pinky ring."

The King is what you'd think a 16-18th Century king would look like - fat, ugly, haughtily smirking. I hated him, and looked forward to seeing his snippy message in defeat (I won't spoil it for both of you who care and don't know).

For some reason, I can't remember typical characters in RPGs and other such games as well.

[Silver Owl]

A game I haven't seen mentioned is Tony LaRussa Baseball. I learned tons of stats for the historical players. This was probably my favorite game of all time.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Silver Owl

A game I haven't seen mentioned is Tony LaRussa Baseball. I learned tons of stats for the historical players. This was probably my favorite game of all time.

That might be the game that honestly got me into sport simulation games on the computer. I had Earl Weaver Baseball before that on my Tandy, but the Tandy was shared between the family so I didn't have enough time on it to really dig in. I pretty much did the board game strat-o-matic before Tony Larussa. Never been able to go back since then.

[DaddyTorgo]

Earl Weaver was so great. I spent so many young hours on that game too...I can't even begin to tell you.

[RainMaker]

I'd add Tecmo Super Bowl and Baseball Stars as the first major sports games that tracked statistics and had seasons.

[Bisbo]

The original Colonization - it really captured the nature of the relationship between the colonists and the natives, and the colonists and the Old World, in a very interesting and authentic way.

Alpha Centauri gave very diverse factions and a living world that was fascinating. I also thought the AI was top notch for solo play. I always felt that I had lived a story rather than completed a 'game' each time I played.

Deus Ex was a great RPG that focused on psychological issues in a very interesting way.

Dominion II was a great, complex strategy game based on religious domination. Although the graphics were as basic as they come, the game presented lots of challenges in a unique context.

[sterlingice]

(Holy Thread Necromancy, Batman!)

Originally Posted by Honolulu Blue

* I've mentioned this before, but Omni-Play Basketball was my first introduction to sports career sims. There were some interesting ideas there - like earning points for the team's end-of-season record, using those points on development and/or trades, the pre-game and halftime analysis, and those commercials.

I only have played in one multiplayer league but I imagine with the sim crowd, this mentality is present. Hell, it's present in the NBA and MLB, to a pretty solid extent. Basically, a team is in one of two modes: "win now" or "tank and rebuild". In the one league I was in, it was even more extreme- basically you gut everything that has any value for future value (even if it's trading your SP4 for a guy with a future ceiling of SP4 because you want it later and not now) and have quite a few really awful teams.

With no fans or any real downside, there is no incentive to actually try to win games. I imagine this is even more frustrating in a football sim where in the NFL, aside from maybe week 17 and the occasional "suck for Luck" situation it is really rare that teams tank. They have to maintain a number near the cap and even in, say, week 13, a 3-8 team will still be trying to beat a 9-2 team even if it will hurt the draft position for next year.

I think a mechanic like this, where there is some emphasis placed on winning and development to counteract the desire to tank is great. It provides a great incentive in a multi-player league to do more than just tank and rush the game runner to blitz through a couple of seasons until an owner can bottom out and try to get good again while allowing the teams that are doing well to savor their victories.

SI

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by SportsDino

All right, i know I still need to contribute, but lot of cool stuff so far.

Another possible diversion, what are some of the best done characters in a game you have played, and of course the important thing, WHY?!

This of course overlaps a bit with plot of course, but I'm hoping the descriptions of the characters might lead to some differences from just a well written story character (and of course probably many similarities, good writing being a bonus in any situation I thinks).

Oh, and SD- hop to it- you've had almost 2 years to respond

I don't really have time but I was going to go into some of the better characters and plots in the Final Fantasy series but I'll disagree with those who use Sephiroth and Cloud (one note characters whose appeal is similar to that of Boba Fett- it's because you know so little about them that they are appealing).

SI

[larrymcg421]

Glad to see all the Omni-Play Basketball mentions. It was my first introduction to the career play/management aspect. I never got into the Hockey version, but they also did Superstar Soccer, which also had career play and was my first introduction to the career play system.

One of the things I didn't like was the cheat protection on all of their games. To prevent people from turning off the computer and starting over if they lost a game, they would give you a Forfeit for any game you did not complete. The problem is a power outage could completely screw you, and this happened a few times to me.

Originally Posted by sterlingice

(Holy Thread Necromancy, Batman!)

I only have played in one multiplayer league but I imagine with the sim crowd, this mentality is present. Hell, it's present in the NBA and MLB, to a pretty solid extent. Basically, a team is in one of two modes: "win now" or "tank and rebuild". In the one league I was in, it was even more extreme- basically you gut everything that has any value for future value (even if it's trading your SP4 for a guy with a future ceiling of SP4 because you want it later and not now) and have quite a few really awful teams.

With no fans or any real downside, there is no incentive to actually try to win games. I imagine this is even more frustrating in a football sim where in the NFL, aside from maybe week 17 and the occasional "suck for Luck" situation it is really rare that teams tank. They have to maintain a number near the cap and even in, say, week 13, a 3-8 team will still be trying to beat a 9-2 team even if it will hurt the draft position for next year.

I think a mechanic like this, where there is some emphasis placed on winning and development to counteract the desire to tank is great. It provides a great incentive in a multi-player league to do more than just tank and rush the game runner to blitz through a couple of seasons until an owner can bottom out and try to get good again while allowing the teams that are doing well to savor their victories.

SI

Actually, the points system in Omni-Play did reward tanking. You got more points for having a worse record. I always played it with house rules though and refused to tank even when my team was getting ancient and I needed some points, I would manage to win enough games to screw myself come offseason.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Glad to see all the Omni-Play Basketball mentions. It was my first introduction to the career play/management aspect. I never got into the Hockey version, but they also did Superstar Soccer, which also had career play and was my first introduction to the career play system.

One of the things I didn't like was the cheat protection on all of their games. To prevent people from turning off the computer and starting over if they lost a game, they would give you a Forfeit for any game you did not complete. The problem is a power outage could completely screw you, and this happened a few times to me.



Actually, the points system in Omni-Play did reward tanking. You got more points for having a worse record. I always played it with house rules though and refused to tank even when my team was getting ancient and I needed some points, I would manage to win enough games to screw myself come offseason.

The interesting thing about that game is that you could really only have a player that was a scoring leader if you had one good player and the rest were crap. It seemed that once you had all good players the shots would be spread around evenly.

Sorry, that's just one of my big memories about that one. It was the hockey game that I played the most.

[MJ4H]

Donkey Kong Country Returns: level design

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

The interesting thing about that game is that you could really only have a player that was a scoring leader if you had one good player and the rest were crap. It seemed that once you had all good players the shots would be spread around evenly.

Sorry, that's just one of my big memories about that one. It was the hockey game that I played the most.

Well, the interesting thing about the basketball version is you couldn't control player movements, but you could control the ball. So you had to time it right to give someone the ball when they were open and you could control when they shot. I found it easiest to develop a big Center and feed him inside as much as possible for high percentage shots.

[rjolley]

Ok, now I want to play Omni-Play Basketball again. Is it too old to be playable in any way?

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by rjolley

Ok, now I want to play Omni-Play Basketball again. Is it too old to be playable in any way?

Probably.

[EagleFan]

Almost forgot about Omni-Play Horse Racing.

[EagleFan]

Download OMNI-PLAY BASKETBALL ABANDONWARE

[Capital]

The Omni-Play and Superstar Games were among the best sports games for the Commodore 64. My favorite 2 werer Superstar Ice Hockey and MISL - the indoor soccer game took the best parts of hockey and made it better.

[EagleFan]

Download EARL WEAVER BASEBALL ABANDONWARE

[Capital]

Don't forget about 4th and Inches and Hardball. Not "career" type but stil fun sport games in their time.

[EagleFan]

Download NCAA: ROAD TO THE FINAL FOUR ABANDONWARE

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by rjolley

Ok, now I want to play Omni-Play Basketball again. Is it too old to be playable in any way?

I haven't found an emulator that will play it on a modern computer. I did a dynasty for it a few years back - C64: Omni-Play Basketball Dynasty - Front Office Football Central - but it fizzled out because it would no longer work on my computer.

That abandonware version is unfortunately the sideview version, which I don't like nearly as much. In that version you control the movements of the Center only, while the rest of the players are independent, although you can demand the ball whenever you want.

[EagleFan]

Download NFL CHALLENGE ABANDONWARE

[EagleFan]

An Emulator...

D-Fend Reloaded: Overview

[EagleFan]

Don't know much about the emulator or the abandonware downloads. Found them doing a search.

[rjolley]

Thanks EF.

[Buccaneer]

Missed this thead previous. Many have already mentioned, so I'll just affirm:
Pirates! Gold - perfect combination of strategy, history, geography, action and rpg
Civ2 - scenarios and events editor
Civ5 - traditional wargame hex-based map with 1upt, and social policies
RRT/RRT2 - resources combination to make a third
pro-based text sims - free agency, trading and drafting
FBCB - everything
Imperialism II - what HB said
Impression hsitorical city-builders - simcity in a historical world and context
Mafia 1/2 - linear cinematic masterpiece

[Senator]

I remember playing a game called Majestic.

I actually paid a monthly fee to get a 2am phone call that said my family was in danger.

[Matthean]

Diablo for mastering the hack 'n' slash art form. It also was very good at atmosphere. I remember being so careful in terms of how fast I moved with a character and how much I freaked out the first time I heard "Fresh meat."

Half-Life for it's willingness to be modded. There were mods in games before it, but the modding in HL lead to the most infamous mod ever(IMO). To me it felt like it changed the way games could be developed.

[SportsDino]

I forgot I started this thread.

Some I have thought about recently:

-Skyrim: SCALE. Some of the games I consider all times classics were games I could get lost in. The sheer map size of the open world games and level of detail (even if relatively 'empty') has always encouraged my exploration instincts.

-Fallout: Skill advancement, a game where you can generally do everything if you want, and usually end up being a jack of all trades to some degree, but has distinct gameplay differences and rewards for specialization (if only early in the game in some cases). This was lost a bit by the time Fallout 3 rolled around in my opinion.

-Minecraft: Not so much the crafting itself as the dynamic nature of the world. It keeps growing, doesn't feel static.

[RainMaker]

Skyrim - The different ways you can play. You can literally build all sorts of characters that can succeed with their own unique styles of play. And each style of play is worthy of a new playthrough in my opinion. It's one of the first games I can remember where you can play so vastly different from another person and still be able to accomplish what you want.

[thesloppy]

The way that you could recruit/build a squad of your own design (and in particular: names), is something that nobody has ever been able to do as well as X-Com, for me personally. X-Com managed to capture that perfect balance where they were disposable enough that you could let squad members die, in the name of progress, but I sure felt horrible about it.

[MizzouRah]

NHL 12 - this is the first sports game I really "dug in" and adjust sliders to my liking and I'm having a blast in my BAGM dynasty - the game just feels like I'm watching a hockey game, it lacks a bit in presentation, but I'd probably skip most of it anyway to get to the action - and what I desire morst, the fast pace and chaotic gameplay of hockey is represented really well in this years game. I play at least one game every night before bed.

Wasteland - I never really could get into Fallout, but Wasteland was a whole different story for me, what an excellent game on the C64 probably the first RPG that I finished in very little time.

OOTP - I never thought something like facegen could add so much to a text sim, what a cool addition.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

An Emulator...

D-Fend Reloaded: Overview

Sorry for the diversion... but this sounds like it might enable me to load up the old FBPro game(s) and give them a re-whirl. Anyone have any insight there? In my mind, that sounds like an awesome memory lane trip, never have been able to find the toolbox I'd need to get my newer computer(s) to run older programs.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

FBCB - everything

I'll offer a sort of echo here. It is not my favorite game, but that's mostly because it revolves around things that don't really interest me that much.

However, FBCB is as good as any game I have ever seen in understanding what its users want, and delivering it efficiently and effectively. It's remarkably close to being a perfect game for what it sets out to do, and there's an awful lot to be said for that, regardless of how grand your scope ends up being.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Download NFL CHALLENGE ABANDONWARE

Glad i stumbled into this thread. I was thinking long and hard the other night, trying to recall the name of the Xs and Os perspective NFL game i used to play at my friend's house as a kid. NFL Challenge is it!

[lighthousekeeper]

+1 on the omni play basketball. awesome game for its time. i loved the announcer's schitck.

i finally sold my copy of omni play basketball just a few months ago (along with omni play soccer and hockey and about 50 other C64 games). amazingly, after sitting idle in various places over the past 20 years, the game still worked.

[MJ4H]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

Glad i stumbled into this thread. I was thinking long and hard the other night, trying to recall the name of the Xs and Os perspective NFL game i used to play at my friend's house as a kid. NFL Challenge is it!

Really wish a career simulation would implement something like that. Of course, I say that, but it would probably mean the end of my life. I'd probably forget to eat.

[Buccaneer]

I concur with Quiksand regarding FBCB. I perceive that it has a higher percentage of those not a fan of real-life basketball playing the game, as oppose to games of other sports.

[Autumn]

Fun thread, even if it's old.

Joe Montana Football - the ability to design your own plays was so much fun here. I spent a lot of hours back then crafting my own offense and play sets, and it really felt like you could mold the kind of team you had. I was playing the '90 giants and was able to create power running plays, passes taking advantage of Megget out of the backfield. A bunch of us used to play it and our teams were very distinct personalities.

Police Quest - Even though this game was the same every time you played it, I played it over and over. The way you had to pay attention to routine details like inspecting your car, not running lights without your sirens on, etc, added to the immersion. And I loved the feeling of having a whole city at your feet, as you drove around looking for traffic offenders or looking for your buddy to meet for a donut. I think it had just the right amount of monotony to make it feel real -- that speeding car didn't show up the instant you started driving around, it took long enough that it felt real. I've said before several times it's an outrage there's not a modern game like this.

Maniac Mansion - this game had such a unique setting. In some ways it was a conventional "find something and use it somewhere else" game, but the fact that everything was so odd kept it from feeling formulaic. Also the way you would get cut scenes of things happening in the house progressing the plot elsewhere, and giving you clues, really made it much more fun.

You can see how long it's been since I've played video games probably ...

[Passacaglia]

I loved Joe Montana Football, too. I had a challenge where I set every player's rating to 2 and seeing how well I could do.

[Yellow5]

Originally Posted by SportsDino

- Grand Theft Auto 3: San Andreas:
I love that you can seamlessly travel across a massive three city gameworld, the wide open environment and artwork involved, in itself is a major draw of the game.

RockStar captured the feeling of the 90's atmosphere perfect with this game. The style and music were spot on.

- Unreal Tournament

First person multiplayer shooting at it's best. Fast paced, unique weapons that felt right, and excellent maps. The bot AI was great, programmed by Steve Polge from Quake Reaper Bot fame.

Epic have not been able to repeat the experience since the original.

[Groundhog]

Mass Effect 2 - Took everything about ME1 that was tedious and removed it, creating an incredibly streamlined product that I keep meaning to play through again.

NBA 2K? - Whichever was the first year that introduced the individual shooting animations, 2K9?

CH2K8 - Just about everything. All this title needs is updated graphics, better player progression, and NBA 2K style plays/movement, and it would be the greatest sports title ever made.

FBCB2 -I'll echo the others here, except to say that it probably is my favourite game of all time. No other game has had as much play from me.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

I concur with Quiksand regarding FBCB. I perceive that it has a higher percentage of those not a fan of real-life basketball playing the game, as oppose to games of other sports.

Yup, I played FBCB for a long time even though I've never been much of a fan of any basketball outside of the Final 64 tourney and the occassional NBA Team/Player of the Week interest story.

[CrimsonFox]

Unreal - Positively perfect level design. great music cues at the right time. Beautiful way it unrolled this epic world and plot before you all in a shooter.

Fallout 3 - The radio really was its own reward as the DJ talks about all the things you did (whether good or bad) it's like throwing me another bone and patting me on the head. That really worked and made me feel like part of the world.

Thief and Thief 2- The way it used sound was unique and really matched the gameplay. The way you could overhear conversations, judge where guards were by their footsteps and voices. The sneak and lockpick areas really added to the tension of the game. Loved the mission based system yet it was a total sandbox how you did it. And the way it started from simple concepts to unravel the big plot of god vs god was wonderful. It also created monsters that scared me like no other game. They really knew how to create fear with their zombies and haunts. It was about atmosphere and isolation... You're on your own...and that's a good and bad thing.