03-21-2010, 08:46 AM | #51 | ||
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I know this would have no legal bearing but when I think of hate crime, I think of three white guys in Mississippi tying up one of those darned negroes that dared to try and vote or sleep with one of our white women and shooting him.
Last edited by lungs : 03-21-2010 at 08:47 AM. |
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03-21-2010, 10:59 AM | #52 | |
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I support the first amendment too, but just because speech is protected doesn't mean there are not consequences sometimes. (same would apply to slander, a bomb threat, etc) And again I think this is likely being blown out of proportion with the threatened boycotts and media coverage, but it doesn't mean the kid who said it should not face some form of punishment. Last edited by BYU 14 : 03-21-2010 at 11:01 AM. |
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03-21-2010, 11:43 AM | #53 |
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Nah, we don't hate lawyers for being smart. We had them for being slimy, manipulative, and money grubbing. SI
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03-21-2010, 12:00 PM | #54 | |
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I think the answer to speech we don't like is always more speech. Aside from those exceptions you noted (things that are not really speech), if someone says something that as a society, we reject, the answer is to respond with different speech. The media coverage, boycotts, protests, while annoying, aren't as troubling to me as the government penalizing someone for what they say. When it's illegal to say something critical about an ethnic group, it isn't really TOO far away for it to be illegal to say something critical about a political party, or religious belief. Last edited by molson : 03-21-2010 at 12:01 PM. |
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03-21-2010, 12:06 PM | #55 | |
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But you still need a crime that was motivated by the hate, and a victim that was chosen because of his protected trait. A "hate crime" is really just a sentencing enhancement for a something that would be a crime anyway. It doesn't make non-criminal conduct criminal. There's no hate crime here, because if want to call this trespassing, Walmart is the victim and they don't have a protected trait. If it's harassment, who's the victim? Any black people that happen to be in the store? If he was specifically trying to harass or intimidate a specific black individual or group that he knew was there, we might have something, but I don't think these laws cover pranks. |
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03-21-2010, 12:33 PM | #56 | |
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Let me start with point #1. . . racism doesn't get any more blatant than this? You are joking, right? I mean, even if you think this is blatant, it doesn't get any more blatant? Please. And how is a jackass on a mic different than being asked to sit in the back of the bus? It's a dumbass kid pulling a dumb ass prank. When people take things like this and try to turn it into a hate crime, discrimination, racism, etc. . . it lessens the impact of truly horrible things that happen to minorities. Something tells me this wouldn't have even got national press if it were a black kid who had went on the intercom and said "All white people leave the store" It would have been treated exactly like what it was. An idiotic prank gone wrong. |
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03-21-2010, 01:21 PM | #57 |
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They will if the alleged victim happens to have been black. Or whines loudly enough.
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03-21-2010, 03:11 PM | #58 | |
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That's painting with far too broad a brush. Just like ignorant white racist fuckers are a small minority, the handful of exploitive, ignorant blacks that look to turn this into a major issue are a small minority as well. Yet both of these groups create far too much noise for their numbers in relation to who the rest of us, black and white feel. Add to that a media that salivates over anything considered controversial and that is the reason we are even having this discussion. Punish the kid for being a Jackass, but don't demean the more serious issues that affect race relations in this country by turning this into something on par with physical violence or destruction of property. |
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03-21-2010, 03:17 PM | #59 | ||
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I might go along with it being less than 50%. I have a real tough time going along with it being a number much smaller than that though. Quote:
Why not? We've certainly demeaned plenty of other things in the interest of so-called race relations, why should this be any different?
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03-21-2010, 05:06 PM | #60 | |
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I think you don't give enough credit to people with your first statement Jon. Maybe it is different in the south (I was in Georgia for a time, but that was almost 30 years ago, so I can't speak on attitudes there) but in the western united states it is nowhere near 50%, in fact I would be surprised if it was even close to 20% in Arizona. And that's my point, we need to stop that mentality of and put efforts toward the truly important issues, not every little trivial thing that gets far too much coverage. |
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03-21-2010, 05:08 PM | #61 | |
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Again, you're assuming the motivation was idiocy. But you don't really know that, do you? |
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03-21-2010, 07:29 PM | #62 |
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Why would I automatically "assume" that something is the worst thing it could be? I am making an assumption based on these things:
1) It's a 16 year old. 16 year olds are stupid. Some of them are violent. . . but that gets me to point two. 2) "All black people leave the store" He didn't say the N word. he didn't threaten violence. He did what I would expect a moronic 16 year old looking for attention to do. 3) Charge him with being a moron. Make him go to some racial training. Call it good. This is not something that should have been a national story. Nobody got hurt, everyone now knows it wasn't even a Wal-Mart employee who made the statements. This is a non story. |
03-21-2010, 07:39 PM | #63 | |
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Apparently so. Perhaps the differences lie in the makeup of state/regional population. Arizona is between 3-4%, Georgia is right at 30%. Over half the black population in the US is in the South, only 10% is in the West. DISCLAIMER: I have no idea what the website I'm about to cite is - black racist, white racist, or totally neutral - I found it by Googling "us demographics by region" but I'll tentatively use it here for this purpose since the information in their tables seems to match what I see on wiki and elsewhere & it's in the most readable format I've seen tonight. African American Population Demographics It isn't that big a stretch to think there might be clues to the attitudes found in both ethnic groups in those figures.
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03-21-2010, 09:15 PM | #64 |
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Are you trying to say that whites are more likely to sink in water?
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03-21-2010, 09:22 PM | #65 |
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only the gulf of mexico. looks like they float in the pacific
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03-22-2010, 12:03 AM | #66 | |
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+1 Should the kid get in trouble? yes Should the kid get arrested? HELL NO!!! |
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03-22-2010, 12:05 AM | #67 |
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03-22-2010, 12:08 AM | #68 | |
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Then he learns his lesson. Story over. Maybe harmless was the wrong word but it sure as hell isn't a "hate crime". He did a prank and he should be punished but arrested is just plain stupid. |
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03-22-2010, 11:27 AM | #69 | |
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Definitely agree with you regarding slander, libel and the like, but, as dumb and not cool as what the kid did, other than humiliation and ridicule, I really don't see what can be legally doled out.
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03-22-2010, 12:15 PM | #70 | |
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It will be a minor charge, a slap on the wrist, but hopefully it at least sends a message not to be so stupid. |
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03-22-2010, 12:24 PM | #71 |
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I'm still looking for the "Crime" here?
he picked up a phone (there are dozens in each store) dialed the intercom number (workers never bother to hide it when they use it) and tried to do something he thought funny. The fact that it wasn't funny isn't a Crime. The fact that people might have been offended isn't a crime. The fact that he used the phone isn't a crime. I don't defend the act, but trying to arrest him for pretty much anything is an act in absurdity. Try to scare him, tell his parents, ban him from the store. maybe. But arrested? I'm thinking they'd best have their own lawyers on hand if they tried that. |
03-22-2010, 12:25 PM | #72 | |
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Other than maybe trespassing, I can't figure out what else he could be charged with. There's no laws against being stupid, if there were, oh boy, you think the prisons are crowded now.
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03-22-2010, 12:37 PM | #73 |
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How is picking up a phone that you do not own not a crime? Other than degree, how does this differ from "borrowing" someone's car for a joyride and returning it when you are done? The phone isn't yours, leave it alone.
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03-22-2010, 01:25 PM | #74 | |
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Huh? Did you actually just say that? How is that different than, say, changing the channel on the TV in the electronics department so you can watch basketball while the missus shops? You own neither device, you used them both for your own purposes without express permission, etc. Same would be true if you tossed your receipt into the trash can behind the cashier after check out (rather than one by the door intended for customer use). You have not denied anyone the use of the item, you have not removed it from their possession, you have not damaged the functionality of the item, you have simply used the unsecured device without authorization and I can't recall ever seeing a general law that covers that in & of itself (i.e. nothing that might put a store intercom in the same protected class as something such as unauthorized use of a police radio)
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03-22-2010, 01:27 PM | #75 | |
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I would argue that both examples are clearly public access. The TV is there to be demoed for you, the trash can is publically available. Actually, you did, as it was unavailable for any store personnel to use during the time you were on it (and it blocks use from any other intercom acccess point while you are talking).
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03-22-2010, 01:32 PM | #76 | ||
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Depending upon the location of the intercom (I haven't seen whether it was behind closed doors or if it was one of the ones hanging on the support beams in the aisles) Quote:
But unless someone attempted to use it then no one was actually denied anything.
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03-22-2010, 01:33 PM | #77 | |
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And if you're asleep at midnight I'm not denying you the use of your car. This wasn't the kids' phone, he should have just left it the heck alone. No matter how "harmless" it allegedly was or he thought it was, he violated the store's property rights by screwing with it.
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03-22-2010, 02:08 PM | #78 | |
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Its not illegal to use someone elses phone without their permission. its rude and its asinine, but its not illegal. it IS illegal to drive someone elses car without their permission for 2 reasons, first its called grand theft auto, a felony offense, second you're not insured, which them becomes reckless endangerment, another felony offense. bad argument. |
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03-22-2010, 02:32 PM | #79 |
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I don't even care if the use of the phone was illegal. Charge him with unauthorized use of a store intercom system. That'd be, what, a one hour class on how not to be a moron?
It's still a far different game than a "hate crime" Maybe someone could help me out here: What does everyone talking about how horrible the kid is think he deserves? 1 month in jail? 1 year in jail? $25,000 donation to the NAACP? Publicly flogged? Death penalty? I'll throw in my two cents: Zero jail time or fines. A 2 hour class on racial relations at the community center next Saturday. |
03-22-2010, 02:40 PM | #80 | |
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I think the arrest and having the parents come down to pick him up is probably enough. Make a note though so the next time he does something stupid we can start cranking it up before he does something serious and hurts someone.
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03-22-2010, 02:46 PM | #81 |
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Problem being is that there's almost certainly no such offense to charge him with, if he didn't violate any applicable statute then he can't be charged with anything. Basically it appears to be a case where if he had picked up the phone & said "Go Northern Iowa" then there's no crime at all. As it happens, there's nothing but the invented crime of being an asshat & offending a minority to charge him with.
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03-22-2010, 02:47 PM | #82 | |
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Of course you make a note. Instead of saying before he does something serious, I would change it to IF he does something serious. I still don't see how we can auto jump to putting the kid into the klan for being a moron. |
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03-22-2010, 02:56 PM | #83 |
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black man posting in this thread
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03-22-2010, 03:17 PM | #84 |
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Lock it up.
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03-22-2010, 03:34 PM | #85 |
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Pumpy should ask the kid if he has stairs.
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03-22-2010, 03:44 PM | #86 |
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I wonder if the kid has outlook
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03-22-2010, 03:46 PM | #87 |
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Attention FOFC posters, all blacks must leave the thread...
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03-22-2010, 03:49 PM | #88 |
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daaaaamn shit just got real
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03-22-2010, 03:52 PM | #89 |
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How "black" do you have to be to be considered black? Because I think I might be 1/1024th black. Not 100% on it, but I might be.....do i have to leave?
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03-22-2010, 03:53 PM | #90 |
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dola,
If you want to get technical about it, we're all black (if you go back far enough).... |
03-22-2010, 03:59 PM | #91 | |
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Wasn't there a Meryl Streep movie by the same name?
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03-22-2010, 04:00 PM | #92 |
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03-22-2010, 04:01 PM | #93 |
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I swear I read this and heard it in the "Dead Man Walking ... !!!" voice.
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03-22-2010, 04:02 PM | #94 | |
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Well, you know the old saying, "Once you go back, you're black".
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03-22-2010, 04:02 PM | #95 |
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03-22-2010, 04:03 PM | #96 | |
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Ahhh, I see you found it.
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03-22-2010, 04:13 PM | #97 |
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This is a good question. I am really wondering about my qualifications as I look up and see that I wore a Cincinnati Mighty Ducks baseball cap to work today. So let's see here. I wore the cap of...
A hockey team A minor-league hockey team A defunct minor-league hockey team A defunct minor-league hockey team in a city that I've only passed through without stopping I think you'd actually have to be much blacker than this to be considered black.
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03-22-2010, 04:20 PM | #98 | |
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Pumpy saves the day again |
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03-22-2010, 04:21 PM | #99 |
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The funny thing is, this is actually worse than what that kid did, because more people will be subject to your expression of "hate" here than were in that Walmart store at the time he did that. And that ended up being front-page news. I just checked CNN.com, and there's no mention of your hate crime yet. I'll let you know if I see anything. Last edited by molson : 03-22-2010 at 04:22 PM. |
03-22-2010, 04:27 PM | #100 |
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Perhaps, but I, as a minority myself, cannot be racist
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