Sources: Goodell determines Pats broke rules by taping Jets' signals

[Celeval]

Originally Posted by Atocep

They cheated, they got got caught. The NFL has said they've been reported it for it multiple times, this time they were stupid enough to do it against a team that is a rival and hates them.

....and whose head coach worked for you for years and years. Hmm. Wonder how he knew which guy to find.

[Neuqua]

According to his wikipedia, Belicheck is a big Bon Jovi fan, and therefore A-OK in my book.

[Fidatelo]

Why don't they suspend Belicheck for a game or two?

[Daimyo]

Seriously Pats fans don't think this is a big deal? They could theoretically figure out where the blitz is coming from, which receivers will be single covered, etc, etc... its a huge advantage!

Watching the Pats-Jets game I came away amazed at how well the Pats blocked the Jets and gave Brady all kinds of time to throw. Now seeing this you have to wonder... how much easier is it to protect Brady when you know where the blitz is going to come from?

Plus we know its been going on for at least two years, but how far back does it go? For me, the Pats winning three out of four titles in the salary cap era made them the most impressive dynasty in football... now, if this is true, I can't say that anymore.... it'll all be tainted.

[miked]

I don't understand how people don't think this is a big deal. They basically are sending guys to the other teams' bench (or nearby enough), picking up signals, and relaying them to their offense. Sure, the Jets missed tons of tackles and let a kick go for a score. But stealing plays definately gives them an advantage.

[stevew]

Bellyfuck a cheater? Say it ain't so.

[Kodos]

Belicheck is a classless cheating asshat.

[Swaggs]

Pretty poor sportsmanship by Belichek. Hopefully the punishment will be severe enough to deter teams from doing it again.

It is interesting that someone from the Belichek coaching tree was the one to bust him.

[Deattribution]

I'm more impressed by people's inability to spell Belichick's name

[dime]

apparently goodell is considering multiple draft picks and a hefty fine. good. this "dynasty" has been full of shit for some time now.No, it's now clear that he's not "pretty good" as Al Harris surmised -- but he is a pathological son of a bitch with some issues. Honestly, you need to win this badly? Using a camera and microphones and whatever else to steal plays? Against the Packers?

Pathetic.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by dime

apparently goodell is considering multiple draft picks and a hefty fine. good. this "dynasty" has been full of shit for some time now.No, it's now clear that he's not "pretty good" as Al Harris surmised -- but he is a pathological son of a bitch with some issues. Honestly, you need to win this badly? Using a camera and microphones and whatever else to steal plays? Against the Packers?

Pathetic.

Word

I'd give you karma if we had the karma mod loaded up here.

[Fonzie]

I'll preface these comments by saying that I'm no Patriots hater, and if anything I've enjoyed watching their success over the last several years. A good friend of mine is a Pats fan, so whilst my beloved Packers have languished I've enjoyed "vicarious winning" through him and his team. So, take that as context for the following:

Given the recent punishment (five games, I believe?) a quarterbacks coach (Wade Wilson) got for use of Human Growth Hormone, which had roughly zero.point.zero effect on the outcome of games, it would seem appropriate for Belichick to get at least that many games in a suspension. Belichick was, after all, messing with the (perceived, at least) integrity of the NFL's product far, far more than Wilson did. Goodell seems like a smart enough commissioner to figure out the potential danger there and respond appropriately. I'd say Belichick should thus get at least a 6-game suspension, and the Patriots should get hit with a substantial loss of draft picks and a fine.

Integrity of the game, and all.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Daimyo

Seriously Pats fans don't think this is a big deal? They could theoretically figure out where the blitz is coming from, which receivers will be single covered, etc, etc... its a huge advantage!

Watching the Pats-Jets game I came away amazed at how well the Pats blocked the Jets and gave Brady all kinds of time to throw. Now seeing this you have to wonder... how much easier is it to protect Brady when you know where the blitz is going to come from?

Plus we know its been going on for at least two years, but how far back does it go? For me, the Pats winning three out of four titles in the salary cap era made them the most impressive dynasty in football... now, if this is true, I can't say that anymore.... it'll all be tainted.

If doing this was so beneficial last year, why didn't they go undefeated and win the Super Bowl?

And clearly Eric Mangini and Romeo Crennel amongst other coaching staffs know about this, so if it was a huge advantage why weren't they doing it? (Or if they were, why isn't it working?)

Originally Posted by Boston Herald

It’s interesting to note a pair of comments after that game. The first came from Packers corner Al Harris, who praised the Patriots coaching staff.

“It’s almost like they knew what we were doing, you know?” he said. “You have to tip your hat to them. They ran plays designed for us. They ran plays that made us check out of some things. I don’t know who calls their plays, but Belichick is pretty good. Honestly, he’s pretty good.”

Charlie Weis needs to re-start doing this at Notre Dame.

[ageofquarrel]

I cant stand the patriots and the city of boston, but seriously isnt their like 3 guys out there giving signals, 2 decoys and 1 real one, How would they know wich one was calling signals.

[bronconick]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

If doing this was so beneficial last year, why didn't they go undefeated and win the Super Bowl?

The employee in charge of doing it had to leave at halftime of the AFC title game?

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by bronconick

The employee in charge of doing it had to leave at halftime of the AFC title game?

Boo, low blow :o

That actually reminds me of the other time I can remember signal stealing being a huge story - Week 1 of 2004? 2003? When Lawyer Milloy was cut the week before and was yelling out our defensive plays and audibles pre-snap. 31-0 Buffalo. Clearly teams should be spending more effort trying to steal signals.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

And I agree that it was both stupid and wrong for them to do this. I still stand by the fact that if this is the Ravens or Seahawks or Rams its barely a blip on the radar screen.

Nah, I kinda agree that the Pats might get more attention because of their success, but there are plenty of people that hate the Rams, Seahawks, or pretty much any team in the league. This would be a big deal no matter what team did it. Especially if it was the Raiders, because that would show just how incompetent they are.

"My Oakland Raiders try catch signal but forget put tape in camcorder."

[AlexB]

OK, it's a rule, so shouldn't be broken, but it's a stupid rule IMHO. Don't see the problem with the taping - it's just like watching game tape, scouting reports, etc - these are taped and reviewed to try and work out patterns and tendencies, and that's all the Pats were doing.

When I read what the fuss was about I was amazed - I assumed every time did this as standard. I know I always try and read the play calling charts when they're on the screen, lip read the coaches, listen to the audibles, and I'm just a fan, and a Miami for that matter.

Really, this is a fuss about absolutely nothing.

[Yossarian]

Really, this is a fuss about absolutely nothing.

What about the part about the equipment frequencies being dodgy?

It's a bigger deal if they were trying to intercept the other team's signals or something.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Jari Rantanen's Shorts

OK, it's a rule, so shouldn't be broken, but it's a stupid rule IMHO. Don't see the problem with the taping - it's just like watching game tape, scouting reports, etc - these are taped and reviewed to try and work out patterns and tendencies, and that's all the Pats were doing.

When I read what the fuss was about I was amazed - I assumed every time did this as standard. I know I always try and read the play calling charts when they're on the screen, lip read the coaches, listen to the audibles, and I'm just a fan, and a Miami for that matter.

Really, this is a fuss about absolutely nothing.

Exactly the sort of homer nonsense I'd expect to hear from somebody from Newbury, England

[Aylmar]

Gives a little different perspective to the buzz a couple of years ago that Belichick "always shuts down a QB the second time he coaches against them"...

Eh...I'm much more interested in the possibility of them disrupting the other team's communications or miking defensive players than I am the recording of signals. Steelers assistants (who are remaining anonymous) are saying in the P-G this morning that they've known about this for a while and change their defensive signals when they play New England...

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07255/816713-66.stm

[molson]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

If doing this was so beneficial last year, why didn't they go undefeated and win the Super Bowl?

I can't tell if this is a serious point, but obviously if this kind of cheating were THAT beneficial to success, we'd be talking about higher penalties than draft picks.

And just as obviously, if there were no or minimal advantage, the Patriots wouldn't be risking draft picks, embarrassment, and the ire of the commissioner by continuing to cheat.

I don't get why you're defending them, this is such crap. If the Pats do roll to a Super Bowl, you'll now have to deal with talk about this every step of the way.

[rkmsuf]

I would guess most teams do stuff like this which is why people seem to know it's going on but never make much of an issue.

The Jets are the only ones being babies here. Mangini got spanked and like a little kid decides to make a federal case of this.

[wade moore]

Put me in the camp that doesn't understand how people don't think this is a big deal.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Put me in the camp that doesn't understand how people don't think this is a big deal.

considering this and the like has gone on in sports for decades I can see where this is a little meh

yeah they broke the rules, that's never good. up in arms? not me. I guarantee the pats have been taped just as much as they have taped other teams. they have a legion of decoys out there just because everyone knows it's going on.

most teams just mix up their signals and move on. the jets are the only ones crying about it.

[larrymcg421]

The "Mangini is a crybaby" arguments would make more sense if this wasn't week 1 of the season and the commish hadn't just released a warning about this in the offseason. If Belichik ignored that warning, then he's a fucking idiot and deserves whatever punishment he gets whether it's a crybaby that reports him or not.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

The "Mangini is a crybaby" arguments would make more sense if this wasn't week 1 of the season and the commish hadn't just released a warning about this in the offseason. If Belichik ignored that warning, then he's a fucking idiot and deserves whatever punishment he gets whether it's a crybaby that reports him or not.

of course the pats deserve whatever penatly is doled out. doesn't take away from the fact that mangini is a titty baby. guy obviously had a stick up his ass after his team got smoked.

[Galaril]

Do peopel think Belichick is stupid or that he would do something if he thought it wasn't useful and of benefit to his cause? And sure other teams do it , but the Pats got caught doing it which is what matters here. When the State Trooper stops me for speeding I could say sure I was speeding but the guy in front of me was going faster, but he could care less and I will still get my ticket.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Galaril

Do peopel think Belichick is stupid or that he would do something if he thought it wasn't useful and of benefit to his cause? And sure other teams do it , but the Pats got caught doing it which is what matters here. When the State Trooper stops me for speeding I could say sure I was speeding but the guy in front of me was going faster, but he could care less and I will still get my ticket.

who is suggesting that there be no penalty here?

[Noop]

Well if he is going to send a message the Patriots are as good as any team to get that message across. So what if everyone is doing it, everyone isn't the team with a few superbowls in the last few seasons.

[lordscarlet]

Put me in the camp that thinks Patriots fans are a little to o high on themselves if they think this is only a big deal because it's the Patriots. And, because I'm too lazy to go back and quote it, to whoever said it's just like reviewing game tape -- the point is that they are relaying the information during the game.

[Fidatelo]

I kind of like that Pats, but I think this is a big deal, especially the rumors about the unexplained radio frequencies.

I remember watching a part of a pre-season game where the announcers were explaining the green dots on the back of quarterbacks helmets this season. They said it was to indicate which helmets had radio communications in them. I didn't catch if they explained why this was put into place for this season. Perhaps it was done to help police against exactly these kinds of activities, that the league knew (or suspected) were going on?

[astrosfan64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I find it odd no one is bringing up the fact the Patriots should have to forfiet the game. IMO.

If you do that, then the New York Giants should have to get a loss for every game that LT played in. I mean he was so coked up he thought he was superman.

Everygame that the redskins played with Dexter Manly should be a loss etc...

[Huckleberry]

Originally Posted by ageofquarrel

I cant stand the patriots and the city of boston, but seriously isnt their like 3 guys out there giving signals, 2 decoys and 1 real one, How would they know wich one was calling signals.

This is just me being logical here, but it sure seems like figuring that out would be a lot easier if, I don't know, they videotaped all the signals and compared to what happened on the field.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

I remember watching a part of a pre-season game where the announcers were explaining the green dots on the back of quarterbacks helmets this season. They said it was to indicate which helmets had radio communications in them. I didn't catch if they explained why this was put into place for this season. Perhaps it was done to help police against exactly these kinds of activities, that the league knew (or suspected) were going on?

It was done because a lot of teams use backup quarterbacks as their holders on field goal attempts. Now, when a backup QB goes in to hold, he has to use a non-green (i.e. normal) helmet.

The league did not want the holder to be able to receive signals from the bench about whether to call (or call off) a fake kick. It gives an unfair advantage to teams that use backup QBs instead of punters as their holder.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

It was done because a lot of teams use backup quarterbacks as their holders on field goal attempts. Now, when a backup QB goes in to hold, he has to use a non-green (i.e. normal) helmet.

The league did not want the holder to be able to receive signals from the bench about whether to call (or call off) a fake kick. It gives an unfair advantage to teams that use backup QBs instead of punters as their holder.

Interesting... I heard one talking head say it was because of Mike Vick (and others) being lined up with another QB in the same formation.

[molson]

Originally Posted by astrosfan64

If you do that, then the New York Giants should have to get a loss for every game that LT played in. I mean he was so coked up he thought he was superman.

Everygame that the redskins played with Dexter Manly should be a loss etc...

I think there's a version of this point in every argument human beings can possibly have, and it's never compelling.

"If you do X, than you have to do Y (even though X & Y never have anything to do with each other)"

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

who is suggesting that there be no penalty here?

I am not sayingthat either. What I am referring to is the people who are say this isn't a big deal and steal signals doesn't help the pats. Coach Bill is definitely doing this for a reason.

[MalcPow]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

This is just me being logical here, but it sure seems like figuring that out would be a lot easier if, I don't know, they videotaped all the signals and compared to what happened on the field.

But the point still holds, you rotate decoys, you go to a different set of signals each quarter or half, it would not take a rocket scientist to almost completely neutralize attempts to do this. Especially since the calls are coming through to a handful of players at most, and most of the time just one player on the field. Coordinating with that one player who the sideline decoys are and which set of signals were active would not be extremely difficult, and it would severely limit any attempts to steal calls in real time or even prepare for a coming week's game with old tapes.

I don't see the big deal because it really does seem to be easily countered in my mind (and possibly even exploited if you play your cards right). From an ethical perspective, planting a mole on the other team's sideline under false pretenses is wrong, as well as stupid, isn't there a more discrete way to film these things than to have some idiot on the other sideline with a camera flashing hand signals across the field? But at the end of the day, anything more than 4th round pick would seem to be very aggressive to me (and Goodell has demonstrated he's perfectly willing to be aggressive so who knows). So they should be punished sure, but outrage? It's just not there for me.

[SirFozzie]

Well, first before everyone with the fake moral outrage try to claim that it shifted the outcome of the game... the guy was caught in the first quarter, so no advantage was gained.

Seriously.. the team needs to have a 2nd rounder + Mid rounder in the next draft taken away, and possibly another draft pick the year after, and I wouldn't be amiss to seeing BillyBelly miss a game or two. Yes, everyone does it, but the Patriots were the one caught. (I am a Patriots fan, but I'm tired of this full fledged slide into shit that I would only associate with the hatred that's aimed at the Yankees.)

[astrosfan64]

Originally Posted by molson

I think there's a version of this point in every argument human beings can possibly have, and it's never compelling.

"If you do X, than you have to do Y (even though X & Y never have anything to do with each other)"

I would agree. But, if you have a policy the policy has to go across the board. So, if cheating gets you a loss, it should get you a loss.

You can't say well if you cheat this way you are ok, but if you cheat that way you are not.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by astrosfan64

I would agree. But, if you have a policy the policy has to go across the board. So, if cheating gets you a loss, it should get you a loss.

You can't say well if you cheat this way you are ok, but if you cheat that way you are not.

Personally, I don't think that the Pats should get a loss for this. Draft picks and a fine seems like the right level of punishment if it is true.

But I think that the argument of "if you punish one form of cheating a certain way, then you must punish all forms of cheating the same way" does not hold up.

Certain kinds of cheating damage the integrity of the result more than others. For instance, paying a player under the table to circumvent the cap, or paying off the ref to slant the outcome in your favor damages the game much more than holding practice for 15 minutes longer than the rules allow. In the first instance, one wants to punish the cheating with a severe sanction. In the second, one wants to use something less.

Both are "cheating," and both provide an unfair competitive advantage. But any rational system of punishment and deterrence must account for degrees of wrongdoing.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

From boston.com




I have to admit I'm very interested to see how this one will play out.

Yeah.. all of the articles I've read have said something to the effect of, "The League was very clear before the season..." etc, etc...

[albionmoonlight]

To take it a step further:

Most systems of punishment rely on two factors to decide the level of punishment--the harm caused by the wrong act and the culpability of the actor. (i.e. grand theft auto punished more than petty theft; intentional murder punished more than negligent handling of a firearm leading to someone's death).

Any discussion of the "right" punishment in this case should focus on both of those factors.

[SirFozzie]

Love this commentary by Salon's King Kaufman.

The fracas over the New England Patriots "spying" on the New York Jets during Sunday's game in New Jersey is an early leader for dumbest controversy of the year honors, though to be fair Terrell Owens hasn't even started warming up yet.

NFL security officials confiscated a video camera and tape from a Patriots employee who had been pointing the camera at the Jets bench. The league has a rule against teams having video recording devices in the coach's booth, the locker room or on the field during games.

Why does the league have that rule? For the same reason it has a rule governing the length of players' socks. The NFL likes rules.

So the league is investigating, there is word of similar incidents involving the Patriots in Detroit and Green Bay last year, and the Patriots could be in danger of losing future draft picks or even having to forfeit the game, which they won 38-14.

Let's not get into the cloak and dagger details because, really, who cares? If there's a rule against video cameras and the Pats had a video camera, let 'em pay, though talk of forfeiture is beyond overkill. The last time an NFL game was forfeited was in 1921, the year before the American Professional Football Association changed its name. This can't possibly have been the most serious game-day rule violation since then.

Punish the Patriots if that's what it takes to keep the suits -- and various Pats haters around the world -- happy. Then get rid of that rule.

What the Pats are accused of doing is "spying" on the Jets coaches as they sent signals to the defense. My understanding of spying must be different from the NFL's. Watching a guy flapping his arms while standing in the middle of 70,000 people and in front of a national TV audience doesn't qualify. Even if you point a camera at him.

I mean another camera, aside from all the legal cameras that can be pointed at him.

For the price of a ticket -- assuming the Patriots as an organization can't find a free ticket somewhere -- the Pats can put a guy in Row 12 with a video camera and record the opposing team's defensive signals to their heart's content. But because the guy's standing on the sidelines it's cheating? Kinda nutty, don't you think?

The Patriots may have been trying to steal the Jets' signals for immediate or future use, but there's nothing wrong with stealing signals. It's a fine and respectable art. If it weren't, teams wouldn't need signals that are coded.

The problem is when teams get sneaky about it, hiding a spy in some cranny of the home stadium that the visitors don't have access to or using listening devices to spy on huddles or locker-room meetings. Where a team has an expectation of privacy, it should get privacy. A guy standing on the sideline and flashing semaphores to the middle linebacker can't expect privacy. Again: That's why the signals are coded. That's why the code should be changed every now and again.

The Jets and Patriots are bitter rivals who aren't shy about accusing each other of all kinds of dastardly deeds, so it's worth noting that this accusation came from the league, not the Jets, and that the Jets don't seem to be using it as an excuse for having their hats handed to them on Sunday. I don't think the Jets have a signal, after all, for "let Ellis Hobbs run a kickoff back 108 yards."

If what the Patriots did to the Jets Sunday is cheating, then what the Pittsburgh Steelers did to the Cleveland Browns is cheating too.

The Steelers had way better football players. Is that fair?

[st.cronin]

Driving in this morning, the local sports radio played an old clip of Rocky Long (HC of UNM) talking about how him and Bronco Mendenhall (HC of BYU) use exactly the same defensive signals, but that there's a sort of gentleman's agreement not to steal them.

[Atocep]

What the Pats are accused of doing is "spying" on the Jets coaches as they sent signals to the defense. My understanding of spying must be different from the NFL's. Watching a guy flapping his arms while standing in the middle of 70,000 people and in front of a national TV audience doesn't qualify. Even if you point a camera at him.

He fails to mention that the team is rumored to have used radios to relay these plays....

Yes, it is a rumor at this point, but the irregularities in radio frequencies tells you there was more to it than just simply recording the signals. He also had no problem going off on potential forfeiture of the game, which is nothing more than message board talk.

For the price of a ticket -- assuming the Patriots as an organization can't find a free ticket somewhere -- the Pats can put a guy in Row 12 with a video camera and record the opposing team's defensive signals to their heart's content. But because the guy's standing on the sidelines it's cheating? Kinda nutty, don't you think?

And the guy would be kicked out the stadium for having a video camera at the game. Fans cannot bring video cameras to games. Period.

If this guy is going to take the time to write an opinion on this, he should make sure his facts are straight instead of pulling shit out of his ass that he thinks sounds good.

The Patriots may have been trying to steal the Jets' signals for immediate or future use, but there's nothing wrong with stealing signals. It's a fine and respectable art. If it weren't, teams wouldn't need signals that are coded.

Its so respected that its against the rules.

The problem is when teams get sneaky about it, hiding a spy in some cranny of the home stadium that the visitors don't have access to or using listening devices to spy on huddles or locker-room meetings. Where a team has an expectation of privacy, it should get privacy. A guy standing on the sideline and flashing semaphores to the middle linebacker can't expect privacy. Again: That's why the signals are coded. That's why the code should be changed every now and again.

Thats why there are written rules in place. So teams know their boundaries. The commish was even so kind as to send out a memo reminding teams that using video cameras to tape signals was against the rules.

The Jets and Patriots are bitter rivals who aren't shy about accusing each other of all kinds of dastardly deeds, so it's worth noting that this accusation came from the league, not the Jets, and that the Jets don't seem to be using it as an excuse for having their hats handed to them on Sunday. I don't think the Jets have a signal, after all, for "let Ellis Hobbs run a kickoff back 108 yards."

If what the Patriots did to the Jets Sunday is cheating, then what the Pittsburgh Steelers did to the Cleveland Browns is cheating too.

The Steelers had way better football players. Is that fair?

So they cheated, but would have won anyway, so its ok!

Worst arguement ever. If anything, its that much worse.

This guy wrote an article that reads like a Patriot fan trying to convince himself that what the Pats did wasn't so bad and it shouldn't in any way tarnish their accomplishments.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

The Patriots may have been trying to steal the Jets' signals for immediate or future use, but there's nothing wrong with stealing signals. It's a fine and respectable art. If it weren't, teams wouldn't need signals that are coded.

What the hell kind of argument is that?

[SirFozzie]

Oh, before I forget, lets not forget the Jets did (roughly) the same kind of thing by bringing Recce Caldwell in at the end of last week, and apparently asked him to spill his guts about all the check calls that Brady does at the line, and what it means..

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Oh, before I forget, lets not forget the Jets did (roughly) the same kind of thing by bringing Recce Caldwell in at the end of last week, and apparently asked him to spill his guts about all the check calls that Brady does at the line, and what it means..

Pats brought in Tim Dwight. You can't outwit Belichick!