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View Poll Results: How is Obama doing? (poll started 6/6) | |||
Great - above my expectations | 18 | 6.87% | |
Good - met most of my expectations | 66 | 25.19% | |
Average - so so, disappointed a little | 64 | 24.43% | |
Bad - sold us out | 101 | 38.55% | |
Trout - don't know yet | 13 | 4.96% | |
Voters: 262. You may not vote on this poll |
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Thread Tools |
05-20-2010, 10:23 AM | #9601 |
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I <3 Kucinich.
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05-20-2010, 10:25 AM | #9602 |
Hall Of Famer
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Get bent whoever hacked my pw and changed my signature. |
05-20-2010, 10:26 AM | #9603 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Massachusetts
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Yeah, the kind of "austerity measures" they're going to go through in Greece and elsewhere would never fly here. People say they want that shit, but in reality we're all too impatient and entitled (even those of us who think we aren't).
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05-20-2010, 10:27 AM | #9604 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: St. Louis
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Quote:
Not an issue I care about at all but if he changed to the pro-chocie crowd than it would make me like him even more. |
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05-20-2010, 10:30 AM | #9605 | |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2002
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Quote:
I'm just talking about how you hold him up as being above the usual politicians, but he famously sold out to the "money and power" of the pro-choice lobby so he could run for president.
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05-20-2010, 10:31 AM | #9606 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: St. Louis
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Quote:
No doubt. I fear we are past the point of no return but spending more and more is just going to get us to the collapse faster and faster. It's much easier to blame Bush or blame Obama and to say maybe we need to cut some of these government programs or stop some of these wars or stop these corporate handouts but very few have the balls to say that we have to do all three. Who is going to win an election by proposing cutting spending, stopping war, and raising taxes? |
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05-20-2010, 10:35 AM | #9607 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: St. Louis
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Quote:
will concede that. Let's just say that Paul (as I am sure there will be some issue that Paul has flip-flopped on as well) and Kucinich seem to be the people at the debates that don't just give the "Rah rah America, listen to what the other side does wrong while I offer no tangible solutions" answer to every question. I don't mind moving Kucinich a little lower than Paul. EDIT: Believe me I think Kucinich has some really backwards plans but he seems to at least have solutions that Democrats should want and not "I will end this war" while just moving it to Afganistan and Pakistan. Last edited by panerd : 05-20-2010 at 10:37 AM. |
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05-20-2010, 11:43 AM | #9608 | |
FOFC's Elected Representative
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: The stars at night; are big and bright
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Quote:
Not sure but you might be an idiot. View Poll Results: Who was the worst President in your lifetime thus far? George W. Bush -apoc-, ace1914, Apathetic Lurker, Arctus, Atocep, Autumn, AZSpeechCoach, bhlloy, Big Fo, boberot, Butter_of_69, Calis, chesapeake, Chubby, claphamsa, CleBrownsfan, clemsonfan, CrimsonFox, DaddyTorgo, Daimyo, Danny, Dark Cloud, dawgfan, DeToxRox, Dodgerchick, ds27, duckman, fantom1979, Fidatelo, Flasch186, flere-imsaho, Fonzie, gkb, GoSeahawks, GrantDawg, I. J. Reilly, INDalltheway, ISiddiqui, Izulde, jaygr, JetsIn06, johneh, JPhillips, JS19, Karlifornia, kcchief19, Kodos, korme, KWhit, larrymcg421, laser, Lathum, lerriuqs, lighthousekeeper, like a dog, LionsFan10, M GO BLUE!!!, MacroGuru, Marc Vaughan, Masked, McSweeny, MIJB#19, molson, MrKordell, NevStar, nol, Noop, PackerFanatic, panerd, Panthersfan75, path12, Peregrine, PineTar, Pyser, Qrusher14242, Racer, Radii, RainMaker, RendeR, rockboy70, Ronnie Dobbs2, Router Help, RPI-Fan, Saul Goode, Scoobz0202, Senator, Sgran, SirFozzie, Solecismic, sovereignstar, SportsDino, SteveBollea, Sublime 2, SunDevil, Swaggs, Telle, TheOhioStateUniversity, thesloppy, Thomkal, Tigercat, TLK, Toddzilla, TredWel, yacovfb
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"i have seen chris simms play 4-5 times in the pros and he's very clearly got it. he won't make a pro bowl this year, but it'll come. if you don't like me saying that, so be it, but its true. we'll just have to wait until then" imettrentgreen "looking at only ten games, and oddly using a median only, leaves me unmoved generally" - Quiksand |
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05-20-2010, 11:58 AM | #9609 |
Coordinator
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicagoland
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Ah. Well, then.
I do apologize. That was catastrophically stupid of me. Guess I'll have to get you that check then, now. |
05-20-2010, 12:54 PM | #9610 |
FOFC's Elected Representative
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: The stars at night; are big and bright
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That's all I wanted in the first place!!!!
__________________
"i have seen chris simms play 4-5 times in the pros and he's very clearly got it. he won't make a pro bowl this year, but it'll come. if you don't like me saying that, so be it, but its true. we'll just have to wait until then" imettrentgreen "looking at only ten games, and oddly using a median only, leaves me unmoved generally" - Quiksand |
05-20-2010, 04:14 PM | #9611 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
I think a third party makes a lot of sense and I would love there to be one. Unfortunately the only examples I've got so far are Perot, Nader and the tea partiers -- all of which became crazy as batshit within six months. Color me skeptical. A parlimentary system is making more and more sense to me as time goes by. Jesus, England's got the liberals and conservatives working together. When do you think that's going to happen here again?
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We have always been at war with Eastasia. Last edited by path12 : 05-20-2010 at 04:14 PM. |
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05-20-2010, 04:21 PM | #9612 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Georgia
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Throwing in extra parties could cause chaos with our current electoral system. You'd very likely have the elections decided by congress almost every single time, or you could have someone managing 35% in enough states to get 270 electoral votes. They could have less than 30% nationwide and be President.
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05-20-2010, 04:29 PM | #9613 | |
Coordinator
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Quote:
Fair point. I obviously haven't thought the whole idea through.
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We have always been at war with Eastasia. |
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05-20-2010, 04:50 PM | #9614 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA
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Quote:
Unless there's more common ground some day, hopefully never. edit to add: Unless, of course, our left wingers find some common decency & suddenly discover common sense
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"I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis Last edited by JonInMiddleGA : 05-20-2010 at 04:51 PM. |
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05-20-2010, 05:00 PM | #9615 |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Alabama
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05-20-2010, 05:20 PM | #9616 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: St. Louis
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Quote:
All of the examples you mentioned question the establishment. The establishment owns all of the media (mass media at least). Are you really sure they are all batshit crazy or are they really any different than whatever the CNN/Fox flavor of the month is? (Obama, Palin, etc) I guess perception is reality but I am sure if you attended some of these third party rallies you would see they are made up of mostly normal people who are pissed off like you. Of course the radicals will come out in droves, I am sure they probably go to GOP and Democrat rallies as well. I dunno unless you really have firsthand knowledge I would at least give them a shot. |
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05-20-2010, 05:38 PM | #9617 | |
Coordinator
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Quote:
Don't talk to me about the media. The failure of the media to do their job over the past thirty years is in my opinion one of the top three reasons that we are where we're at right now. And yes, I have attended more than a few third party rallies in my life. Hell, I even attended some Libertarian ones. I'll stand by my statement.
__________________
We have always been at war with Eastasia. |
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05-20-2010, 05:40 PM | #9618 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: Feb 2003
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Quote:
Well, you've always got that secession thing to fall back on.
__________________
We have always been at war with Eastasia. |
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05-20-2010, 06:46 PM | #9619 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Rand Paul is an interesting guy and I'd love to see some Libertarian voices in both the House and Senate. But he's already backtracking on a lot of his libertarian beliefs and is morphing into just another politician. I mean he's against socialized medicine, but not Medicare.
It's cute to give speeches and stuff about how you're for small government. But winning elections and staying in power are another people. All these anti-big government people don't like it when you tell them you're taking their government social security and health care from them. |
05-20-2010, 07:46 PM | #9620 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: St. Louis
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Quote:
I have noticed the attacks have really started up in the press. (EDIT: I know, I know. Tuesday I was bitching about him not being in the news. I should be happy that he is now) Going back to the race baiting like they always do with his father. (Buried somewhere in the Rand Paul is a Racist headline is that he doesn't believe in the Civil Rights Act for private business. Not sure I have met many who do.) If he is backtracking on some other major stuff that is kind of sad. I am a big fan of his dad's and would love to be a fan of his too. You won the primary because you weren't mainstream don't be convinced that's what you need to do to win this election, it's the exact opposite of what you need to do! The tea party is really starting to follow the famous Gandhi quote (not quite the same situation but with the spending the way it is it could get just as bad!) though. It will be fun to watch Republicrats and Demolicans unite to try and save their asses when these guys start winning their seats. "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.” Last edited by panerd : 05-20-2010 at 07:46 PM. |
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05-20-2010, 07:57 PM | #9621 |
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You haven't met many people who believe in the Civil Rights Act for private businesses??
Where (and in what year) the fuck do you people live??? WTF!!!!!!
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05-20-2010, 07:59 PM | #9622 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: St. Louis
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Quote:
Yawn. Hasn't this topic been done here 1000 times? Go talk to Skydog if you want. It seems like all of the faux outrage is gone when a black guy says it. EDIT: Though if you google "civil rights act for private business" the first 20 results are Rand Paul. Sure no media manipulation going on in this country at all. Last edited by panerd : 05-20-2010 at 08:02 PM. |
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05-20-2010, 08:03 PM | #9623 |
Coordinator
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05-20-2010, 09:25 PM | #9624 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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Quote:
Paul only got about a quarter of the overall vote in the KY primaries. Let's at least see a Tea Party candidate win a general election before comparing them to Ghandi.
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To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
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05-20-2010, 09:31 PM | #9625 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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Ron Paul and Reagan staffer Bruce Bartlett on Paul:
Quote:
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05-20-2010, 09:33 PM | #9626 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: St. Louis
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Quote:
Yeah because that's what I did. I know it's hard for you when the typical Democrat/Republican playbook of Obama and Bush bashing back and forth doesn't work out but you can surely do better than that can't you? |
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05-20-2010, 09:45 PM | #9627 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
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Yes, bashing both Republicans and Democrats is much more morally pure.
You're as partisan as anyone in this thread you just root for a different jersey.
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05-20-2010, 09:50 PM | #9628 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: St. Louis
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Quote:
Nah, I honestly couldn't tell you one Libertarian outside of Bob Barr. (and my guess he was just using the party in 2008 to run for president and probably isn't with the party anymore) I like a lot of their ideas and find that Ron Paul and Gary Johnson (Republicans) match my ideas best but I am hardly partisan. i.e. committed to a party. You are correct that I am firmly against the shit we have in Washington. But no reason to do anything about it. In 2015 we can talk again about how it's too late to really do anything anyways, then again in 2020, then in 2025. The government is already too big I give up! Spend more! Spend us out of this mess please! Last edited by panerd : 05-20-2010 at 09:52 PM. |
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05-20-2010, 10:07 PM | #9629 |
Pro Rookie
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05-20-2010, 10:10 PM | #9630 | |
Hall Of Famer
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Location: Newburgh, NY
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Quote:
You're entitled to argue whatever floats your boat, but let's not pretend you haven't been one of the main supporters of the Libertarian Party in this thread.
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05-20-2010, 10:15 PM | #9631 |
Coordinator
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I flirted with Libertarianism during that time in one's life where you try and get past the bullshit you've been brought up to believe and start to figure out what you really do believe.
My conclusion was something like this. Any time you have a clear belief system that promotes otherwise perfectly avoidable suffering of fellow human beings you lose me. Plain and simple. It is a utopian dream that is absolutely unworkable in our age and society. Name one social ill that an unfettered free market is able to fix. You can't.
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We have always been at war with Eastasia. Last edited by path12 : 05-20-2010 at 10:16 PM. |
05-20-2010, 10:18 PM | #9632 | |
Hall Of Famer
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Quote:
What you said. I did the same thing - flirted with it, espoused it for a little while, even voted that way when I was 18...19. But yeah...it's unworkable.
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05-20-2010, 10:40 PM | #9633 | |
Grizzled Veteran
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Quote:
LOL. So the Utopian dream is one where I live for myself and hope that my neighbors do too? While a realistic one is world peace or no guns or conquering the middle East and solving the oil crisis or no abortions because of law or 100% literacy from government run schools or spending money to get out of debt. You're right Libertarians are so unrealistic and living in a dream world. |
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05-20-2010, 10:42 PM | #9634 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: St. Louis
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Quote:
Does the federal government require a handicap ramp on your ivory tower? Please tell me more about when I grow up? What don't I understand about the real world and King Obama? |
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05-20-2010, 10:44 PM | #9635 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Oct 2002
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Quote:
Don't be a douche. Other people are allowed to have their opinions - you haven't discovered some magical "elixir of perfect politics" because you're a libertarian.
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Get bent whoever hacked my pw and changed my signature. |
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05-20-2010, 10:45 PM | #9636 | |
Grizzled Veteran
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Quote:
What about a fully grown man who gets kicked off a football message board for acting like a 14-year old and thinks he can trick everyone by coming back under a different handle? |
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05-20-2010, 10:47 PM | #9637 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: St. Louis
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Quote:
So your discovery at age 18 of why my opinion is wrong wasn't you being a douchebag it was just an opinion? Got it. |
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05-20-2010, 10:49 PM | #9638 | |
Coordinator
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Quote:
Tell me where I said that. You're free to believe whatever you want. But don't go around acting like you've got the answer and nobody else is wise enough to see it.
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We have always been at war with Eastasia. |
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05-20-2010, 10:51 PM | #9639 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Oct 2002
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Quote:
Exactly. IT IS MY OPINION THAT I FORMED AT THAT TIME THAT IT IS UNWORKABLE. You're free to come to a different conclusion. Doesn't mean that either of us is right in the end.
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Get bent whoever hacked my pw and changed my signature. |
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05-20-2010, 10:53 PM | #9640 | |
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Quote:
Right. You didn't throw the 18 or 19 yeard old part in just to be a dick about it. Got it, you just wanted to make sure all of us were clear on the dates of when you made discoveries. |
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05-20-2010, 10:56 PM | #9641 | |
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Quote:
Actually...yes. You have quite the "Libertarian persecution complex" going on lately hmm?
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05-20-2010, 11:11 PM | #9642 | |
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Quote:
I would vote for the guy because while I think some of his ideas are crazy, they are crazy to the point that he'll never be a deciding vote on the issue. But his votes on spending and other things that are close will be good overall. As for the race-baiting, I agree that it's horrible. People try and portray those against the private sector portion of the Civil Rights Act as racist when in fact they just don't feel the government should be legislating morality. I wish he would just say that and stop pussy footing around. But he's running in a party that wants the government to legislate morality, so he can't. Last edited by RainMaker : 05-20-2010 at 11:11 PM. |
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05-21-2010, 06:26 AM | #9643 | |
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From the BArtlett essay posted above:
Quote:
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05-21-2010, 07:18 AM | #9644 |
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Sigh. If only ...
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05-21-2010, 07:27 AM | #9645 |
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Umm ... he's "100% pro-life", he "opposes all federal bailouts of private industry", on defense he believes "When we are threatened, it is the obligation of our representatives to unleash the full arsenal of power that is granted ...", he believes "Lowering taxes gives working men and women the ability to take control of their own lives", he's pro-veteran, he's pro-homeschool rights, he opposes amnesty for illegal immigrants, he says he'll "fight to balance the budget and dramatically reduce spending". Other than his take on health care (and apparently Iraq, I haven't read his comments on that in detail), how far outside the GOP mainstream are his actual positions? Let's be honest here, winning a GOP primary is a feat that has some pretty narrow parameters you're going to have to be within. I'm not being critical of that, we both know you aren't going to find me being too upset by narrowly defined boundaries of acceptability. To pretend that he won because he's some sort of socio-political revolutionary is just fucking silly.
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"I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis Last edited by JonInMiddleGA : 05-21-2010 at 07:34 AM. |
05-21-2010, 07:33 AM | #9646 | |
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Quote:
That's Google's algorithm being influenced by frequency of searches, immediacy, and link backs. That's not a sign of a vast bipartisan media conspiracy. Such a thing might conceivably exist but what you cite isn't evidence of it.
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05-21-2010, 09:29 AM | #9647 | |
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That's OK: I have. Keep the Senate as it is, but convert the House to a body that is elected by a national vote based on proportional representation, with no more individual districts. Any party can run in the national election and they put a slate of candidates up who would take the seats they end up being allotted. As an example: Republicans get 37% of the vote, they get 161 seats Democrats get 32% of the vote, they get 139 seats Libertarians get 15% of the vote, they get 65 seats Greens get 10% of the vote, they get 44 seats Socialists get 3% of the vote, they get 13 seats Federalists get 2% of the vote, they get 9 seats States' Rights Party gets 1% of the vote, they get 4 seats Republicans form governing coalition with Libertarians for a 226-seat majority. Quote:
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05-21-2010, 09:51 AM | #9648 | |
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Interesting. But if the Senate stays the same that body (at least for awhile) is likely to remain mostly two party. So say you have this governing coalition of Repub/Libertarian and a Democratic majority in the Senate. Nothing could pass both bodies. Though of course there are some who would consider that a victory.
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05-21-2010, 10:02 AM | #9649 |
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A key benefit of a nationally-elected PR system would be immediate relevance for some third (or fourth, or fifth) parties. As it stands now, a vote for someone other than D or R is essentially a protest vote, and so even if you, say, really agree with the Greens, you probably won't vote for them over a Democrat, especially in a tight race.
In this system you can, especially since Greens would likely ally with Democrats on more issues, you're not necessarily voting to the benefit of Republicans by voting Green (from the opposite side, substitute Libertarians for Greens and Democrats for Republicans). Later, if non-D/R politicians get press and reputations, you might even see a few of them run, and win, Senate seats. So you get more diversity of opinion overall. |
05-21-2010, 10:30 AM | #9650 | |
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Except that there's a great deal of the country (I'd dare say a majority of those who actually have an opinion) who don't see that as a "benefit". Truth is, a lot of us don't believe that most of those fringe elements have any actual relevance, and especially don't think a system should be jury rigged in order to create an artificial relevance for them. edit to add: Further, if someone thinks "special interest groups" have too much sway now, wait 'til they get a load of the deals cut between the Vegetarian Party & the Dem's (or any of the dozens of other possible combinations on either side of the aisle).
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"I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis Last edited by JonInMiddleGA : 05-21-2010 at 10:32 AM. |
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