*World Cup Game Discussion Thread* (SPOILERS)

[Abe Sargent]

I really love how one of the best players on the pitch right now is Dennis Lawrence, DC for WREXHAM.


-Anxiety

[daedalus]

As an aside, I would have to go with Lampard over Gerrard at the moment as he has looked more dangerous. Although I can't tell if that's because he's trying to hang back to be the more defensive of the two.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by daedalus

As an aside, I would have to go with Lampard over Gerrard at the moment as he has looked more dangerous. Although I can't tell if that's because he's trying to hang back to be the more defensive of the two.

See, I think Gerrard's being forced to curb his game for Lampard, which is absurd.

[path12]

I just saw the match tracker -- 25 shots for England??? And no goals? Are they just firing away wildly??

[Toddzilla]

GOAL

[cartman]

Beautiful cross by Beckham there to set up the goal.

[Critch]

Originally Posted by path12

I just saw the match tracker -- 25 shots for England??? And no goals? Are they just firing away wildly??

It's the kind of game you normally only get in FM

(Still bitter after my 28-3 shots but a 3-0 defeat game as Brazil v Angola)

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

See, I think Gerrard's being forced to curb his game for Lampard, which is absurd.

I agree.

And thank fuck for that.

And seriously - who said T&T are the better side? Come on, England haven't played well, but we've dominated (which against T&T shouldn't be something to boast about, but they clearly haven't been the better side)

[Crapshoot]

That was kinda harsh on T&T. I was rooting for England, but a part of me wanted T&T to pull this off. What a gutsy performance.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Jari Rantanen's Shorts

I agree.

And thank fuck for that.

And seriously - who said T&T are the better side? Come on, England haven't played well, but we've dominated (which against T&T shouldn't be something to boast about, but they clearly haven't been the better side)

To be fair, I only watched parts of the first half - and T&T looked pretty good. Probably an exagguration on my part..

[AlexB]

And that is why Gerrard should be given free reign with a DM, and Lampard should get splinters

[cartman]

And now Gerrard ices the game with a second goal.

[daedalus]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

See, I think Gerrard's being forced to curb his game for Lampard, which is absurd.

Which he wouldn't have to, if they play a 4-5-1 with either Carrick or Beckham (which I don't know if he's even capable of) as the holding mid.

[tanglewood]

Possibility of England playing a 3-5-2 for the rest of the tournament? It's looked pretty good for the last half hour here.

[Crapshoot]

Possibility of either dropping Lampard and allowing Gerrard free reign makes sense to me.

And that wasn't an offside - shitty call.

[daedalus]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

That was kinda harsh on T&T. I was rooting for England, but a part of me wanted T&T to pull this off. What a gutsy performance.

Yeah, I'm cheering for England but I couldn't help myself cheering for a T&T goal after the Crouch goal. T&T deserves a lot of credit for their performance.

I hope they get those rum ANYWAY, even though they ended up losing.

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by daedalus

Which he wouldn't have to, if they play a 4-5-1 with either Carrick or Beckham (which I don't know if he's even capable of) as the holding mid.

You're right, but if we play 4-5-1, you have to sit (as opposed to curb) either Rooney or more likely Owen, and you would severly curb Rooney.

More and more I am remembering Sir Alf: 'I don't pick the best players, I pick the best team.' Unfortunately we don;t have a proper DM - IMHO a 4-4-2 to allow Gerrard/Lampard free reign, or 4-5-1 (especially with Garrad & Lampard as the two AM) needs a Makelele type DM - Carrick, Jenas are not that type of player. Hargreaves might be, but he's in the strange position of being in the England squad and nobody knows fuck-all about him

[daedalus]

As an aside (and just for Matthijs) . . .

Hey, Robben even dove against Jose in the Adidas commercial!!!!

[Critch]

Originally Posted by Anxiety

In fact, I don;t see why anyone opposes what T&T has been doing at all. In American football, the formula to win playing a high octane offense that outclasses yours is to run teh ball, grind down teh clok, use as much time to take plays as possible, and keep the ball out of the octane's hands. T&T is just using that same strategy.

I didn't say there was anything wrong with it, just that I don't like seeing boring, dirty teams be successful. Except when they're playing England.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

And that wasn't an offside - shitty call.

He was a half step off.

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by Critch

I didn't say there was anything wrong with it, just that I don't like seeing boring, dirty teams be successful. Except when they're playing England.

I again invite you for a drink in York

But tbh we have been awful thus far in the WC

[daedalus]

Originally Posted by Jari Rantanen's Shorts

You're right, but if we play 4-5-1, you have to sit (as opposed to curb) either Rooney or more likely Owen, and you would severly curb Rooney.

Yeah, but Rooney isn't a 90 minute player yet. So, it'd be Owen for awhile with Rooney replacing him in the last 30-45 minutes. Cole and Beckham would just have to play higher. Cole is already doing that for his club, though Beckham may have problem doing that with his (lack of) speed.

Originally Posted by Jari Rantanen's Shorts

More and more I am remembering Sir Alf: 'I don't pick the best players, I pick the best team.' Unfortunately we don;t have a proper DM - IMHO a 4-4-2 to allow Gerrard/Lampard free reign, or 4-5-1 (especially with Garrad & Lampard as the two AM) needs a Makelele type DM - Carrick, Jenas are not that type of player. Hargreaves might be, but he's in the strange position of being in the England squad and nobody knows fuck-all about him

Agree with that quote.

The best candidate for that DM role may have been King, if he had been healthy. I've never seen Hargreaves but descriptions of him sounds like a Jack of All Trade and Master of None-type.

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by Jari Rantanen's Shorts

And that is why Gerrard should be given free reign with a DM, and Lampard should get splinters

Bingo. Gerrard sees the field like not many do. Amazing, amazing player.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by daedalus

As an aside (and just for Matthijs) . . .

Hey, Robben even dove against Jose in the Adidas commercial!!!!

:P

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by Jari Rantanen's Shorts

God no. We need 442, but Svein (as Marc has called him & I think I will follow) needs to make a tough decision: Lampard or Gerrard, with a proper defensive midfielder in the team - we haven't really got one in the squad though...

And for the first time I'm thinking Becks' lack of pace is a major problem, especially when the other team (i.e. T&T) just defend & play set pieces. Right now I think I'd bring on SWP, but as he's not there Aaron Lennon will do.

You could always move Gerrard to the right. He played there a tad for Liverpool

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Jari Rantanen's Shorts

And that is why Gerrard should be given free reign with a DM, and Lampard should get splinters

Hey, I've been on this bandwagon for a while. Gerrard is one of the 10 best players in the world - Lampard isn't close, and isn't even the best on his team. At Chelsea, he's free to basically roam like a forward with limited (if any) defensive responsibilities - can you imagine him dropping back to play right-back a la Gerrard, and doing a good job of it ? It seems that rather than make the worse player adapt, he's forcing perhaps his best player (alongside Rooney) to play in a role that curbs the skills that make him the best - absurd.

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Hey, I've been on this bandwagon for a while. Gerrard is one of the 10 best players in the world - Lampard isn't close, and isn't even the best on his team. At Chelsea, he's free to basically roam like a forward with limited (if any) defensive responsibilities - can you imagine him dropping back to play right-back a la Gerrard, and doing a good job of it ? It seems that rather than make the worse player adapt, he's forcing perhaps his best player (alongside Rooney) to play in a role that curbs the skills that make him the best - absurd.

Yep, you have, and I've argued against it in the past. But Gerrard on current form (i.e 2006) gives more than Lampard, and I believe atm if one has to accomodate the other, Lampard should sacrifice part of his game for Gerrard, not the other way round. Team benefit suggests that onmly one should play though, which should be Stevie G

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

You could always move Gerrard to the right. He played there a tad for Liverpool

Yeah, I thought about this before the post you quoted, but I think Gerrard needs to be allowed freedom, and he would be restricted to the point where his being on the right IMO is no different to Becks - and given Becks free kicks between the two I would have Golden Balls.

More and more I see Lampard just drained through over use. Yes it's great he's played 900 consecutive games for Chelsea (edit: I know he was rested a little this year, but he still plays more often than not), but maybe squad rotation has something going for it after all...

[Katon]

Originally Posted by Jari Rantanen's Shorts

Yeah, I thought about this before the post you quoted, but I think Gerrard needs to be allowed freedom, and he would be restricted to the point where his being on the right IMO is no different to Becks - and given Becks free kicks between the two I would have Golden Balls.

More and more I see Lampard just drained through over use. Yes it's great he's played 900 consecutive games for Chelsea (edit: I know he was rested a little this year, but he still plays more often than not), but maybe squad rotation has something going for it after all...

That's certainly true. He hasn't been at his best for some time now, probably because he just never gets a break. Like I said back in the other thread, one of the major benefits of signing Ballack is that now we'll be able to rest him without completely giving up on our offence.

Most of the other points in this discussion I think are based almost entirely on current form. Playing with Essien and Makelele may not involve that many defensive responsibilities, but Lampard's best form at club level came the year he was playing with Maka and Eidur Gudjohnsen. Before that, he was excellent for a couple of years in a 4-4-2, sometimes with Makelele beside him but also sometimes with Emmanuel Petit and sometimes with Jody Morris. He's perfectly capable of playing in a flat four-man midfield, something which (as I point out every time this comes up) Gerrard hasn't yet demonstrated. When was the last time Gerrard played really well for England? It wasn't today; the only difference between him and Lampard was that he packed his shooting boots. For Liverpool, too, Gerrard's status as one of the best players in the world dates back almost exactly to when Benitez stopped using him in the centre in a flat 4-4-2. Dropping one of your stars so the rest can have a formation they're more comfortable in is all well and good, but it's only worthwhile if the remaining stars actually like the formation you're playing. Sticking Carrick in for Lampard won't help with that.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by law90026

I don't think so. Is it possible for the US to win a WC? Anything's possible (see Greece). Is it likely or even a decent chance? No.

Put it this way. For the US, the objective really isn't to win it. The objective is to get a good run and get into the knockout stages. If one were realistic about it, this could be admitted as fact.

The winners of the WC are going to be nations that have strong national leagues and/or a contingent of star players playing in the strongest leagues in the world (EPL, La Liga, Serie A). The US is unlikely to be able to do this, simply because soccer isn't popular enough in the US. Without this, the US national team is unlikely to ever be strong enough to mount a serious challenge for the WC.

Ignore the results of 4 years ago. The US was a relatively unknown quantity then, same as Korea, and their drive/determination proved sufficient to push them into the knockout stages. But the US is a known quantity now and teams know what to look out for. It's not going to be possible for the US to spring such a surprise any more. Bear in mind there's always a surprise team in every major tournament (think Cameroon, Korea, US, Sweden, etc). That doesn't mean these teams are going to become soccer powerhouses though.

I think you will be suprised at the amount of Americans playing in top leagues in 8 years. It is increasing today and the amount will only increase in the future.

[Desnudo]

Babes of the WC. Probably not to be opened if you're at work.

http://msn.foxsports.com/soccer/pgSt...tentId=5676192

[Katon]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

I think you will be suprised at the amount of Americans playing in top leagues in 8 years. It is increasing today and the amount will only increase in the future.

But star players? Australia have quite a few people playing in top leagues. Doesn't mean they're a top-class team. A team with a lot of people in the big European leagues but no stars is effectively a worse Sweden or a better Poland - going to be favorites to get to the second round, maybe able to reach the quarters with a good draw, but not going to win the tournament.

[Desnudo]

I think so, although there are never absolutes. There are American kids growing up now with dreams of playing professional soccer, which wasn't really the case even 10 years ago. Soccer academies are popping up all over the place. Plus, the pool of players is much larger in the US than in Australia or most second-tier European countries.

And If they manage to CAP Rossi somehow, then they'll have a star sooner rather than later. I think Eddie Johnson has that potential as well if he has the will. Adu, who knows, too young.

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

Hounds of the WC. Probably not to be opened if you're at work.

http://msn.foxsports.com/soccer/pgSt...tentId=5676192

Fixed that for you

/although a few are hittable

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

Fixed that for you

/although a few are hittable

I vote for 1, 2, and 5. But especially 1. Although I have never been there, I surmise that Brazil is the greatest place on earth. And the main reason:

hxxp://alima.kmmod.com/galleries.htm

[Joe]

if anyone is still looking for streaming video of world cup games, I found this TV tuner on another forum that works great

http://www.tvunetworks.com/downloads/TVUPlayer.zip

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

I think so, although there are never absolutes. There are American kids growing up now with dreams of playing professional soccer, which wasn't really the case even 10 years ago. Soccer academies are popping up all over the place. Plus, the pool of players is much larger in the US than in Australia or most second-tier European countries.

And If they manage to CAP Rossi somehow, then they'll have a star sooner rather than later. I think Eddie Johnson has that potential as well if he has the will. Adu, who knows, too young.

As I said before, because (1) 99.5% of USA's best athletes don't want to, and will never, play soccer, and (2) there is no, and never will be, passion for the sport to motivate change, the hopes of winning the World Cup or having several top notch world class players will not happen. As it stands now, the USA has never produced a single world class player. Brad Friedel came very close (and he's a keeper).

[Narcizo]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

French teams don't typically underperform, France are four-time world cup and four-time Euro' semi finalists.

Now about that Denmark - Greece comparishing, watch the facts of WC/Euro's results and then tell me whether they're still in the same class:

It doesn't matter about their record. What matters is how they were expected to do at the time. That's what decides if it was an upset or not. Denmark were expected to lose to England and France and probably Sweden as well. Greece were expected to lose to Spain and Portugal and probably Russia as well. It doesn't matter that England and France were, with hindsight, over-rated. (England were semi-finalists in the World Cup two years before, France were reckoned to be an up-and-coming power - at least as good pedigree as Spain and Portugal in 2004). Maybe you're right, maybe it shouldn't have been such a big surprise that Denmark won the championship, but at the time it was a huge deal.

Anyway, I could go on, but it's starting to get to the point of arguing for arguments sake and I can't even remember the initial point so I'll shut up now.

[Narcizo]

Great game by Sweden but I don't want to see another game like that. Källström looked fantastic in the game. The forwards not so much. It's going to be a wee bit ironic if Sweden suffer because of lack of decent strikers when two of their three big stars are forwards. Their build up play has been top-notch, varied and incisive. They just lack someone to put the ball in the back of the net. Unfortunately. Still thank god the tournament is going to be rid of Paraguay. I thought they were supposed to have become more adventurous since 4 years ago (who can forget the painfully woeful 2nd round tie with Germany. I know I wish I could). If anything they seem to have regressed.

If Germany fail to beat Ecuador then the final game could be a weird experience. It's not going to be two hugely motivated sides playing each other. Sweden will need the draw but apart from that it will be about pride. Sort of like the Texans against the 49ers this year. Then again that might convince England to try and open up their game a bit. Perhaps even give Walcott a try out.

[Celeval]

Seriously... these announcers are annoying. Messing is beginning to sound like Dick Vitale.

[SirFozzie]

Holy shit. What a goal.

[SirFozzie]

dola: Talk about joga bonito.

They are going to be showing that one for weeks.

[Butter]

That's what the Germans like to call "quality".

[SirFozzie]

And #3. You can go home now and have your breakup Serbia and Montenegro.

[SirFozzie]

Own goal there?

[Celeval]

Looked like an own goal to me.

[Butter]

Either way, how about Saviola just shoving that guy out of the way to win the ball. That's what the Germans like to call "strenf".

[moriarty]

Originally Posted by Jari Rantanen's Shorts

More and more I see Lampard just drained through over use. Yes it's great he's played 900 consecutive games for Chelsea (edit: I know he was rested a little this year, but he still plays more often than not), but maybe squad rotation has something going for it after all...

I'm coming at this late, but ....

Lampard drained for overuse? What about Gerrard? He's played in more matches this year (including the grueling CL qualifiers Liverpool went through) and he went further in pretty much every cup competition. Yet Gerrard looks the fresher of the two to me. If Lampard misses on more sitter I'm going to reach through my TV and bop him.

I really wish they would let Gerrard play behind the strikers and put Lampard back or even bring in Carrick and let Lampard sit (which Sven will never do). I was particularly impressed by Lennon out on the wing. I really haven't seen this guy play much but his speed and intensity was impressive. Becks couldn't get a cross in all game (how many times didn't his crosses get blocked) until lennon came in and forced the defense back respecting his speed. All of a sudden Becks had time one the ball, and what do you know he delivered the perfect pass to Crouch. I don't know if Lennon has the skill to take people on against a team like Germany, but I would like to see more of him agaisnt Sweeden.

Based on what I saw, I'd probably go with a 4-5-1 start to the next match. Put Lennon in on the right and move Becks to a central or perhaps slightly behind Lennon on the right position. Move Lampard back to DMF, and allow Gerrard to play right behind Crouch and make attacking runs. I'd also tell JCole to quit cutting inside (and clogging up the middle for Lampard/Gerrard) and focus more on playing wide and getting some crosses in.

Owen needs to go to the bench, and Rooney at this point is still my scoring sub (although it was great to see him back, he really didn't do a lot in the game).

[cartman]

Argentina has so far scored more goals against Serbia than Serbia allowed in all of their World Cup qualifying matches and the opening game. They had only allowed 2 goals in their previous 11 games that mattered.

[Celeval]

Nice debut for Messi