Middle East - what's next

[flere-imsaho]

I think it's difficult to ask Israel to take the first step towards Hamas when Hamas have consistently shown little interest in conciliation and in fact have a clear and vested interest in prolonging violence against Israel.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Fighter of Foo

Didn't Palestine have an election and Hamas was the party that was elected?

Obviously. And my point is that the Palestinian people took the wrong step here with regards to statehood. Nobody takes Hamas seriously at the political level and Hamas' disdain for the international processes and insistance in their use of thuggery and terror completely overshadow any good they might do at the ground level.

And what have we learned about Hamas? They are having trouble acquiring humanitarian aid and food...but easily can get rockets, bombs, and suicide bombers.

Let's face it, the Palestinian people chose poorly.

[flere-imsaho]

I always thought that election was more a reaction against Fatah's corruption and absolute inability to govern than any real affinity for Hamas. Of course, when those are your only two options, you're kind of screwed.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I always thought that election was more a reaction against Fatah's corruption and absolute inability to govern than any real affinity for Hamas. Of course, when those are your only two options, you're kind of screwed.

Sounds like the current choices for governor of Illinois. Where's a third party when you need one?

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Sounds like the current choices for governor of Illinois. Where's a third party when you need one?

Did you just call the Illinois GOP a bunch of terrorists?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Did you just call the Illinois GOP a bunch of terrorists?

Might as well. Tomorrow's a holiday. I feel frisky.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I think that's the whole point of the "Two State Solution", though. Israel would never allow Palestinians to be Israelis and have a vote in Israeli affairs because, at its heart, Israel is a Jewish state, end of story. So it's solved by giving Palestinians their own state which is, in itself, a huge concession by Israel (speaking historically, looking from 1946 onwards).

Although the idea that Israel is a 'Jewish state above all' is an idea that is increasingly debated within Israel itself. The current reality is that Israel is a multicultural state. This is not just a result of the Arab minority population who never left, but also due to the influx of non-Jews who have emigrated to Israel in the past 20 years (especially from Eastern Europe). I think that I read somewhere that, these days, the majority of immigrants aren't even Jewish. This is a reality that Israel can't ignore, regardless of the Palestinian issue.

[lungs]

If Hamas were to recognize Israel's right to exist, would Israel recognize Hamas as the rightful government of the Gaza Strip?

I tend to sympathize with the Palestinians to some extent, but they need to get over themselves and realize that Israel ain't going away. Likewise, the hardcore Jews (Orthodox? I'm not up on Judaism) need to realize that they aren't going to create some utopian Jew-land free of any non-Jew.

What is it with extreme stubbornness and that side of the world? Emphasis on extreme.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I always thought that election was more a reaction against Fatah's corruption and absolute inability to govern than any real affinity for Hamas. Of course, when those are your only two options, you're kind of screwed.

That and Hamas was really the only political party interested in helping the people out. Hamas would build schools while Fatah would take international aid and use it to stuff crony's pockets. The problem with a lot of the Mid East is that those who aren't corrupt are fundies. The "who you know" system has been the primary system for centuries and its a bit difficult to change.

[miked]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

That and Hamas was really the only political party interested in helping the people out. Hamas would build schools while Fatah would take international aid and use it to stuff crony's pockets. The problem with a lot of the Mid East is that those who aren't corrupt are fundies. The "who you know" system has been the primary system for centuries and its a bit difficult to change.

Well, you do leave out what Hamas was teaching in those schools, but I guess at least they were building them.

[Noop]

How is that any different then what any school teaches?

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Noop

How is that any different then what any school teaches?

I don't think schools in most Christian places tell their students that to be a good Christian, you have to convert or kill all Muslims.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I don't think schools in most Christian places tell their students that to be a good Christian, you have to convert or kill all Muslims.

Crusades?

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Hopefully we have advanced in the last 900 years where that is no longer necessary to teach. Hopefully other religions will similarly advance at some point.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Hopefully we have advanced in the last 900 years where that is no longer necessary to teach. Hopefully other religions will similarly advance at some point.

Hope got a man elected so anything is possible.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

I think you might have missed my point, which is that Christianity has evolved since the Crusades where they no longer teach that killing other faiths is Gods will.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

I think you might have missed my point, which is that Christianity has evolved since the Crusades where they no longer teach that killing other faiths is Gods will.

I don't think Christianity has come very far to be honest. However for the sake of not trying to kick the hornets nest I will not press the issue.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

I'll kick it.

I grew up Roman Catholic and am non-practicing now. While I was educated publicly, I did go to CCD weekly until I was 18. I don't ever remember being taught that anyone was evil, or that anyone should be hated, let alone that God wanted me to kill anyone.

To me, that means Christianity has come quite far since the Crusades you mention.

[Klinglerware]

Heh, heh, Central City Dump.

Why on earth would you need to go until you were 18?

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

It had switched over to youth group at that point, but the idea is similar.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Going meta for a moment....
On another note, I'd like to congratulate Edward64 for his attempts to keep this thread relatively on-topic over the years. It's clearly taken a lot of work, and not always been successful, but it's been a much more thoughtful thread than I expected when it was first posted.

Hey, thanks.

[Edward64]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan
It's quite simple really. They talk with the Israeli government, tell them that they no longer seek the destruction of Israel per their charter, and start an open negotiation where both sides agree to a cease fire and more open relations. They then prove their willingness to work together by ceasing all rocket attacks.

But we're all aware that Hamas won't agree to all of those conditions, so the war will continue.

Why doesn't Israel talk with the Hamas government, tell them that they no longer seek the destruction of Hamas per their actions, and start an open negotiation where both sides agree to a cease fire and more open relations??? They then prove their willingness to work together by ceasing all attacks.

I'm guessing it's because we're all aware that Israel won't agree to all of those conditions, so the war will continue.

Its pretty obvious to me that Mizzou is more on target. Hamas has always been the more belligerent and Fatah the more moderate (more so recently).

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I always thought that election was more a reaction against Fatah's corruption and absolute inability to govern than any real affinity for Hamas. Of course, when those are your only two options, you're kind of screwed.

I believe this is true but I have also heard that Hamas treated the people better in terms of assistance/welfare etc. All in all, I do believe it was a fair election and the Palestinians picked Hamas, for better or worse.

EDIT: sorry, I see there have already been posts on Hamas credibility.

[Edward64]

If Hamas were to recognize Israel's right to exist, would Israel recognize Hamas as the rightful government of the Gaza Strip?

In all honesty, I don't think Israel would. However, if Hamas were to recognize Israel's right to exist and stop terrorist acts, Israel would certainly stop retalitory attacks against Hamas and let Fatah/Hamas work things out between themselves.

It doesn't look to me as if Fatah/Hamas can work things out. Maybe there will be a defacto West Bank government that Israel can live peacefully with and a Gaza government will continue to be contentious.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

I'll kick it.

I grew up Roman Catholic and am non-practicing now. While I was educated publicly, I did go to CCD weekly until I was 18. I don't ever remember being taught that anyone was evil, or that anyone should be hated, let alone that God wanted me to kill anyone.

To me, that means Christianity has come quite far since the Crusades you mention.

I agree. I also grew up Roman Catholic and am non-practicing now. I went to church, catholic schools etc. and don't ever remember "being taught that anyone was evil, or that anyone should be hated, let alone that God wanted me to kill anyone".

Christianity has definitely gone beyond the Crusades.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Noop

Hope got a man elected so anything is possible.

As I've been told several times by a client ... hope is not a management strategy.

[Edward64]

Some of my thoughts in no particular order on ME news over the past several days ...

1. Fox around Sat noon had guests that say it looks as if the Israelis are going in soon. Forget the phrase but essentially the IDF has bombed all the targets they wanted and the next step is the ground incursion.
   
2. Son of a Hamas leader has converted to Christianity and lives in the US. Saw clips of him carrying a surfboard and surfing. Sat 10pm EST on Fox, should be interesting.
   
3. Two different Palestinian spokesmen on Fox and CNN. They are not smooth presenters, babbled and didn't know when to stop. If Hamas ever wants to present itself as coherent they need to have different spokesmen and/or media training. This was something I noticed with Fatah during the Arafat days ... I believe their spokesmen have gotten better.
   
4. Hamas spokesman calling out Obama. This was either very stupid or they are just playing to the Arab world and don't really care about a relationship with the US. Its probably both. I wonder if they use US lobbying firms.
   
5. Assassination of a Hamas leader along with some family. I hate deaths of children (they truly are innocent aren't they) but damn, what was that guy doing with his family after 4+ days after the bombings started?

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Assassination of a Hamas leader along with some family. I hate deaths of children (they truly are innocent aren't they) but damn, what was that guy doing with his family after 4+ days after the bombings started?

Where do you want him to go, Aspen? They're all trapped in Gaza with no place to escape. If was was trapped and knowing death was probably in my short term future, I'd absolutely be with my family too.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by lighthousekeeper

Where do you want him to go, Aspen? They're all trapped in Gaza with no place to escape. If was was trapped and knowing death was probably in my short term future, I'd absolutely be with my family too.

I would not have my family next to me if I picked a fight with Israel.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by lighthousekeeper

Where do you want him to go, Aspen? They're all trapped in Gaza with no place to escape. If was was trapped and knowing death was probably in my short term future, I'd absolutely be with my family too.

Key term being "my". He knew he would probably be killed. His family could have lived though.

[flere-imsaho]

As far as I'm concerned, that's Hamas' modus operandi: if you're going to get killed in conflict in Israel, make sure you position yourself amongst the civilian population in a way that the Israelis will have no choice but to also kill a lot of innocents, especially children. That way, people hate Israel. Mission accomplished.

[Flasch186]

true true

[lighthousekeeper]

Hmmm, I guess I'm making some assumptions that maybe I'm wrong about:

Assumption 1: Gaza is only a few square miles in size, blockaded and essentially barricaded in - which means that there's really not too much distance that any target can put between himself and innocents.

Assumption 2: When Isreal shoots each bullet/rocket/etc into Gaza, they don't know exactly where the rocket will land, who will be killed, and exactly what crime each of the vistims were guilty of. Therefore, targeting is an inexact science, killing of innocent people is guaranteed, and your relative proximity to your family at the exact moment an attack is made is irrellevant. Whether that dude (whoever the hell he is) decided to spoon with his wife during his final moments therefore didn't increase the chances of her dying.

Like I said, my assumptions might be wrong. *shurg* Now - back to important stuff like my FM2009 career!

[Flasch186]

might be

[Ryan S]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Key term being "my". He knew he would probably be killed. His family could have lived though.

These people do not think like us. If they are killed, it benefits their cause if their family dies with them, as this will strengthen anti-Israeli feeling.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Ryan S

These people do not think like us. If they are killed, it benefits their cause if their family dies with them, as this will strengthen anti-Israeli feeling.

Yeah, I know. Doesn't mean I have to say "yeah, that's okay, cuz that's just you being you, Abdul. What a great guy you are!"

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by Ryan S

These people do not think like us.

lolz. how do 'we' think, again?

[Flasch186]

generally, Id say, on the whole, we'd send our loved ones away if we knew an explosion would engulf ourselves and anyone within 100 feet of us. On the whole.

[Calis]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

generally, Id say, on the whole, we'd send our loved ones away if we knew an explosion would engulf ourselves and anyone within 100 feet of us. On the whole.

Generally on the whole I'd say we'd get the hell out of there ourselves.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by lighthousekeeper

Hmmm, I guess I'm making some assumptions that maybe I'm wrong about:

Assumption 1: Gaza is only a few square miles in size, blockaded and essentially barricaded in - which means that there's really not too much distance that any target can put between himself and innocents.

Wiki says 1.4m people live in Gaza Strip which is 139 sq miles. Just for reference, Wiki says Manhattan is 1.6m people in 23 sq miles.

lolz. how do 'we' think, again?

I think this is a fair question, not sure how to answer it. I could not see myself participating in this though ...
Bodies of Hamas leader's children paraded as group promises 'painful' revenge for their deaths | Mail Online

The bodies of a senior Hamas leader's small children were today ghoulishly paraded through the streets of Gaza as the group pledged to avenge their deaths.

Nizar Rayan, his four wives and 10 of his children were all killed by in an Israeli air strike on his home after he ignored warnings they should go into hiding.

In grisly scenes, mourners held up the bloodied bodies of the children to the cameras in a clear attempt to blacken Israel's name and highlight its brutality.

Graphic images showed the young children's uncovered faces as the victims were carried by thousands of angry Hamas supporters during the funeral procession.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Calis

Generally on the whole I'd say we'd get the hell out of there ourselves.

Yes, I agree but on a more serious question ...

Can people living in Gaza that wish to leave and resettle somewhere do it? I know I've heard of refugee camps in Jordan (and probably Egypt) which is not appealing but can a family that basically says "screw it, I want to live somewhere else in peace with a job" go somewhere in the ME with relative ease?

I suspect the answer for the masses is no. And therefore, most are really landlocked in Gaza (and West Bank).

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Yes, I agree but on a more serious question ...

Can people living in Gaza that wish to leave and resettle somewhere do it? I know I've heard of refugee camps in Jordan (and probably Egypt) which is not appealing but can a family that basically says "screw it, I want to live somewhere else in peace with a job" go somewhere in the ME with relative ease?

I suspect the answer for the masses is no. And therefore, most are really landlocked in Gaza (and West Bank).

True, they are stuck there. Egypt has a security fence and blocked all border checkpoints to restrict any movement of the Palestinian refugees (but lets be honest, it's primarily there to stop militia and terrorist movements), and obviously the well publicized Israeli security fence that forces the Hamas to use rockets instead of suicide bombers is the only other option for refugees and that would only open up to Palestinians if the Israeli's are ready to quit and give up their land.

Problem is...the Palestinians elected Hamas and did not protest the hundreds of rockets that their own leadership was firing into Israel even during the "cease-fire".

So I seriously doubt many of them really want to leave. A democratically elected government can be protested right?

[Flasch186]

and I'll follow that up by saying most of the countries in the ME want the Palestinians to stay in gaza to keep rattling Israel's cage and not to live in peace next door.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

and I'll follow that up by saying most of the countries in the ME want the Palestinians to stay in gaza to keep rattling Israel's cage and not to live in peace next door.

Although this may have been the truth years ago, I think this an extreme position. The only 2 countries that I can see wanting this are Syria and Iran. Iraq (now), Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and the other gulf states probably value stability.

I think even Syria is willing to do peace. Say what you want about Assad Jr. but he is a secularist and just want Golan and project his power in Lebanon.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Problem is...the Palestinians elected Hamas and did not protest the hundreds of rockets that their own leadership was firing into Israel even during the "cease-fire".

Just a note on this. CNN reported that it was Israel that killed 6 Hamas members in Nov during the cease fire period. I'm sure the Israeli's can justify this (ex. they were planning an attack) but short of them being on Israeli land (ex. on the other side of the fence), I would say that Israel broke the cease fire first.

So I seriously doubt many of them really want to leave. A democratically elected government can be protested right?

I actually think if you were to give them a choice, the masses would choose to leave. Give them a country that welcomes them and gives them a leg up initially, they can live in peace, work at a job, give their children an opportunity to suceed and the majority will choose this.

I wish it was as simple as the US saying all who want to live in peace, com'on over and we'll help you out. The problem, of course, is our perception (and probably valid) that we would be inviting some terrorists over.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Just a note on this. CNN reported that it was Israel that killed 6 Hamas members in Nov during the cease fire period. I'm sure the Israeli's can justify this (ex. they were planning an attack) but short of them being on Israeli land (ex. on the other side of the fence), I would say that Israel broke the cease fire first.


I actually think if you were to give them a choice, the masses would choose to leave. Give them a country that welcomes them and gives them a leg up initially, they can live in peace, work at a job, give their children an opportunity to suceed and the majority will choose this.

I wish it was as simple as the US saying all who want to live in peace, com'on over and we'll help you out. The problem, of course, is our perception (and probably valid) that we would be inviting some terrorists over.

not one rocket from gaza into israel during the cease fire? mmmk, bear in mind that Im not for either side and Im Jewish. If the rockets stopped today and Hamas said we believe israel has a right to exist and were willing to negotiate on a border it would all end immediately. I dont think that's a lot to ask for AND I think the Palestinians deserve a home country. If you want to counter that that is what they want and it contains Israel than you might as well not enter this thread anymore

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Although this may have been the truth years ago, I think this an extreme position. The only 2 countries that I can see wanting this are Syria and Iran. Iraq (now), Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and the other gulf states probably value stability.

I think even Syria is willing to do peace. Say what you want about Assad Jr. but he is a secularist and just want Golan and project his power in Lebanon.

....and since we disagree on this and cant prove it we might as well not debate it.

[jeff061]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I agree. I also grew up Roman Catholic and am non-practicing now. I went to church, catholic schools etc. and don't ever remember "being taught that anyone was evil, or that anyone should be hated, let alone that God wanted me to kill anyone".

Christianity has definitely gone beyond the Crusades.

This is because there is no one to fight and we are not really being pressured. It's not about religion coming a long way, but the people in power. This amounts to humanity itself, which certainly has not come a long way. It's just adapted slightly to a smaller more connected world.

If America had a close, real and superior threat people in power would be using every tool at their disposal to create a nation of motivated warriors, religion most definitely being one of them.

Don't kid yourself.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

not one rocket from gaza into israel during the cease fire? mmmk, bear in mind that Im not for either side and Im Jewish. If the rockets stopped today and Hamas said we believe israel has a right to exist and were willing to negotiate on a border it would all end immediately. I dont think that's a lot to ask for AND I think the Palestinians deserve a home country. If you want to counter that that is what they want and it contains Israel than you might as well not enter this thread anymore

Not sure I understand your last sentence. Specific to who broke the most recent ceasefire first, here are some different POV links. Arguments on both sides. Although I do not know how valid it is, there is a wiki that lists the attacks. The "best answer" reponse is pretty interesting.
Who broke the ceasefire? Both Israel and Palestine say other side did? - Yahoo! Answers

There are western sources (CNN, NYTimes, UK The Guardian etc) have articles claiming Israel broke the truce with the Nov attacks.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by jeff061

This is because there is no one to fight and we are not really being pressured. It's not about religion coming a long way, but the people in power. This amounts to humanity itself, which certainly has not come a long way. It's just adapted slightly to a smaller more connected world.

If America had a close, real and superior threat people in power would be using every tool at their disposal to create a nation of motivated warriors, religion most definitely being one of them.

Don't kid yourself.

The discussion topic is Christianity circa the Crusades and now. I could go through the research and lists all the differences but it might be more helpful for you to post 1 or 2 main points on how you believe Christianity has not progressed past the Crusades?