The Biden Presidency - 2020

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Your view works great as long as no one reads the actual history of the region. Enjoy the terrorists support.

You learned about Yemen a week ago and the Houthis 4 days ago. You're just making up shit because you know nothing about the region. I figured the "they hate us for our freedoms" shit was laughed out after the Bush era, but guess we're bringing back the classics.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

You learned about Yemen a week ago and the Houthis 4 days ago. You're just making up shit because you know nothing about the region. I figured the "they hate us for our freedoms" shit was laughed out after the Bush era, but guess we're bringing back the classics.

You said that. I said they hate us because there is money in it, which is just factual.

[RainMaker]

So they hate us over a financial dispute?

Worth noting all these groups explicitly lay out the reasons for hating us. You don't have to go far for an answer.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

So they hate us over a financial dispute?

Actually, you even admitted that. Read your own statements and get back to me.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Actually, you even admitted that. Read your own statements and get back to me.

I mean they are mad about corruption from the previous regime but still seems like their ire is more about being relentlessly bombed for 15 years over some proxy war. And the last half century of supporting their enemies who are killing them.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I mean they are mad about corruption from the previous regime but still seems like their ire is more about being relentlessly bombed for 15 years over some proxy war. And the last half century of supporting their enemies who are killing them.

They have been killing people a lot longer than 15 years. Try again.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

They have been killing people a lot longer than 15 years. Try again.

Who has?

[RainMaker]

Like I genuinely think you're confusing the Houthis with someone else or just running with the "all Muslims are terrorists" argument. They have nothing to do with a genocide that I know of or starving anyone.

It's a pretty small group in a pretty small country. Their rise came during the Arab Spring when they were able to remove a crooked dictator put in power by the West. That crooked dictator they removed was a huge supporter of Al-Qaeda (another enemy of the Houthis). Their fighting has been limited to Yemen and its civil war. They have nothing to do with the U.S.

The U.S. only got involved militarily to help the Saudis since we're basically their bitch and it could funnel some money to defense companies. I know the Houthis existed before then, but they were pretty inconsequential and just a revolutionary group looking to oust a dictator. I didn't hear about them at all when I was living in the ME.

[JPhillips]

They are literally slavers. The Houthis are no heros.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Like I genuinely think you're confusing the Houthis with someone else or just running with the "all Muslims are terrorists" argument. They have nothing to do with a genocide that I know of or starving anyone.

It's a pretty small group in a pretty small country. Their rise came during the Arab Spring when they were able to remove a crooked dictator put in power by the West. That crooked dictator they removed was a huge supporter of Al-Qaeda (another enemy of the Houthis). Their fighting has been limited to Yemen and its civil war. They have nothing to do with the U.S.

The U.S. only got involved militarily to help the Saudis since we're basically their bitch and it could funnel some money to defense companies. I know the Houthis existed before then, but they were pretty inconsequential and just a revolutionary group looking to oust a dictator. I didn't hear about them at all when I was living in the ME.

They existed before that. They have existed since the 90's. You may have only heard of them in 2014, but they had a history that predates that. Their American hating flag is older than that. They adopted that in 2003.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

They are literally slavers. The Houthis are no heros.

Agreed. We are allied with the biggest slavers in the Arab world so I don't know why we pretend to be concerned with it in Yemen.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Agreed. We are allied with the biggest slavers in the Arab world so I don't know why we pretend to be concerned with it in Yemen.

Not the reason they were attacked, but a very good recon not to defend them.

[JPhillips]

I thought you were all about moral stands. You can't support Biden but you're okay with the Houthis.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I thought you were all about moral stands. You can't support Biden but you're okay with the Houthis.

I don't live in Yemen and my tax dollars aren't going to the Houthis.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Not the reason they were attacked, but a very good recon not to defend them.

They've been attacked because the Saudis told us to and to protect commerce in Israel.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Nvm.

Jan 19 is the day. Hopefully they can work out some sort of deal over this long weekend.

I guess it's better than nothing.

But I'm thinking we'll continue to have the +2 month continuing resolution until next election, and only if there is a power shift in the House then.

Congressional leaders have come to an agreement on a two-tranche short-term funding bill to keep the government funded into March, a source familiar with the matter told CNN.

The new continuing resolution will fund the government through March 1 and March 8. The agreement comes just before the first funding deadline of January 19. The second government funding deadline was February 2.

House Republicans will have a conference call Sunday night to discuss the continuing resolution, the source told CNN. And the text of the resolution is expected to be posted Sunday evening, a spokesperson for Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer said.

[GrantDawg]

"They've been attacked because the Saudis told us to and to protect commerce in Israel."
Wow, you don't even know what is going on there now. You have to stop TikTok diplomacy and eating at the Hamas propaganda dining hall. SA is trying to pull itself out of Yemen and has been working hard on a cease-fire there. These air attacks are the last thing they want as it makes it harder for them to do that. They asked us directly not to do them. You also keep saying they we are protecting commerce in Israel when the Red Sea is not Israel, and the ships being attacked are not Israeli nor have cargo heading to Israel. This is open sea piracy and disruption of commerce. The literal reason the US Navy exists is to protect that.


Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

[RainMaker]

What are you talking about? There's been an on and off civil war in Yemen for over 10 years. A proxy war between Iran and Saudi Arabia. The Saudis and U.S. have been bombing the shit out of the country this whole time.

Obama sent forces there. Trump sold a ton of weapons to the Saudis. We were even refueling their bombers in midair until Trump stopped it after they bonesawed that journalist
Biden made a big proclamation a year or so ago about ending all involvement in Yemen until he changed his mind the other day.

As for disruption of commerce that you say America cares about, we have been aiding in a years long blockade of the country so the Saudis can starve them out. Not exactly something defenders of the seas would do as you say.

This is all undisputed by all governments involved. They talk openly about it. It's even talked about in Congress when they vote for these weapons packages. I don't know what you think this has to do with TikTok or Hamas. The Yemen conflict has been in the news for over a decade. I'm sorry if you haven't followed it, but it's not some vast conspiracy.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

What are you talking about? There's been an on and off civil war in Yemen for over 10 years. A proxy war between Iran and Saudi Arabia. The Saudis and U.S. have been bombing the shit out of the country this whole time.

Obama sent forces there. Trump sold a ton of weapons to the Saudis. We were even refueling their bombers in midair until Trump stopped it after they bonesawed that journalist
Biden made a big proclamation a year or so ago about ending all involvement in Yemen until he changed his mind the other day.

As for disruption of commerce that you say America cares about, we have been aiding in a years long blockade of the country so the Saudis can starve them out. Not exactly something defenders of the seas would do as you say.

This is all undisputed by all governments involved. They talk openly about it. It's even talked about in Congress when they vote for these weapons packages. I don't know what you think this has to do with TikTok or Hamas. The Yemen conflict has been in the news for over a decade. I'm sorry if you haven't followed it, but it's not some vast conspiracy.

I know about the Yemen civil war, and I am talking about what is happening right now in it not what was relevant a few years ago. The Saudi's have been working for months to get a cease fire in Yemen. They are wanting to pull back and deal with internal matters. They did not ask the US to do this attack, on the contrary they are afraid this will cause it to continue. This bombing is dealing with the Red Sea and free international shipping, and I know you want to "whataboutism" and change the goal post on every discussion, but if you do you really should keep up with current events as least.
Yes, the Yemen civil war has been a proxy war between Iran and the Saudi's. One that the Saudi's want out of, not to further encourage. The Houthi's are acting directly on orders from Iran who funds them arms them.

[flere-imsaho]

I'm curious, RM, how should the U.S. respond to attacks on shipping going through the Red Sea, in particular, say, shipping with no material going to Israel?

If people from Colombia started attacking shipping en route to the Panama Canal, what should the U.S. response be?

[RainMaker]

The simple answer would be to demand a ceasefire in Gaza which would end the piracy. It would also end a genocide. So kill two birds with one stone and save lives (not to mention the massive blowback we will see from this conflict).

Otherwise, we should treat these equally. We are allowing Israel, Saudia Arabia, and the UAE to attack shipping vessels of aid in international waters. So if we are bombing Yemen, we should be bombing the others till they stop too. Personally though, I would push to end all blockades diplomatically but understand our master wouldn't approve.

[RainMaker]

Like we've supported a blockade of food and medical supplies into Gaza and Yenen for a decade. Feels a bit hypocritical to be angry at this.

[GrantDawg]

Blockades during a conflict is common, but to the port of the conflict not all random ships heading to other ports with nothing to do with the conflict. Beyond that, any group or country that attacks our service members are going to rightly get a military response. Surrendering to their demands is a recipe for others to blackmail the US for whatever their next demands will be.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Blockades during a conflict is common, but to the port of the conflict not all random ships heading to other ports with nothing to do with the conflict. Beyond that, any group or country that attacks our service members are going to rightly get a military response. Surrendering to their demands is a recipe for others to blackmail the US for whatever their next demands will be.

Wait till you read about who is being attacked in those blockades. They had nothing to do with the conflict either.

What if a country attacks and kills an American citizen who was not involved with the conflict? Does that deserve a military response too? I don't think Yemen has killed any Americans.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Wait till you read about who is being attacked in those blockades. They had nothing to do with the conflict either.

What if a country attacks and kills an American citizen who was not involved with the conflict? Does that deserve a military response too? I don't think Yemen has killed any Americans.

It depends on what the American was doing. Americans are killed around the world regularly. If it is a service member attack by another military or terrorist group then yes. If it was an idiot placing himself in danger by doing something stupid in the middle of a conflict, then probably not.

[JPhillips]

JOHNSON says congress can’t solve border until Trump is elected or a republican is back in the White House.

This was always how things were going to play out. The GOP isn't going to pass any immigration bill with the Dem in the White House.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

It depends on what the American was doing. Americans are killed around the world regularly. If it is a service member attack by another military or terrorist group then yes. If it was an idiot placing himself in danger by doing something stupid in the middle of a conflict, then probably not.

Americans are not typically executed by foreign governments in international waters. If China or Russia had done this, it would not only have been an international incident, but the U.S. would not have helped in covering it up for China.

The teenager was on a humanitarian ship that was delivering aid to Palestinians. Again, they were in international waters.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

This was always how things were going to play out. The GOP isn't going to pass any immigration bill with the Dem in the White House.

I don't think they'll pass one with Trump in office either. One of those issues that plays well to their base but would upset their donors. Who's their scapegoat going to be if they got everything they wanted?

[miked]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The simple answer would be to demand a ceasefire in Gaza which would end the piracy. It would also end a genocide. So kill two birds with one stone and save lives (not to mention the massive blowback we will see from this conflict).

Otherwise, we should treat these equally. We are allowing Israel, Saudia Arabia, and the UAE to attack shipping vessels of aid in international waters. So if we are bombing Yemen, we should be bombing the others till they stop too. Personally though, I would push to end all blockades diplomatically but understand our master wouldn't approve.

Every time there is a ceasefire in Gaza, Hamas takes all the aid, uses it to buy more weapons and train children to blow up Jews, and fires thousands of rockets into Israel. A two-state solution would require the other state to be interested as well. Peace and independence is bad business for Hamas.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I don't think they'll pass one with Trump in office either. One of those issues that plays well to their base but would upset their donors. Who's their scapegoat going to be if they got everything they wanted?

They'll trade them tax cuts and child labor and business will fall in line.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by miked

Every time there is a ceasefire in Gaza, Hamas takes all the aid, uses it to buy more weapons and train children to blow up Jews, and fires thousands of rockets into Israel. A two-state solution would require the other state to be interested as well. Peace and independence is bad business for Hamas.

Israel is not interested in a 2 state solution and they were the ones that aided Hamas because it would prevent that.

[GrantDawg]

"The teenager was on a humanitarian ship that was delivering aid to Palestinians. Again, they were in international waters."
He has a blockade runner trying to enter a port illegally. A blockade that the UN determined was legal and they had a right to divert the ships to another port. He along with his friends were armed with knives and clubs and fought with the Israeli security forces, and ended up getting shot. All of this was under a Turkish flag, not an American one.
Nope, don't see anything the Americans have to do with that. He played a stupid game and won a stupid prize.
Meanwhile, the Houthi blockade of the Red Sea was determined illegal by the UN, and they attacked a US Navy ship. They also play a stupid game and are winning stupid prizes.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

[RainMaker]

The UN held Israel responsible for the incident (which isn't really shit anyway). Israel even apologized for the incident. You're literally defending a country that has admitted fault.

The ship was in international waters when it was attacked. So much for that "free international shipping" you touted earlier. Trying to put my finger on what makes them different in your scenario. What could it be?

And even if they broke a blockade (which they hadn't yet), it was to provide aid to people suffering in a concentration camp. How could anyone with a concious oppose that? At least we know what side you'd fall on during the liberation of camps in WW2. Those dead soldiers were playing some stupid games too I guess.

[RainMaker]

Getting furious when you learn about the Zegota.

[GrantDawg]

It wasn't impeding free international trade because the ship was blockade running. Any more than stopping a drug runner is stopping free international trade. You are not stupid. You know the difference as well. They found Israel was over-aggressive, but they again said the blockade was legal and that the raiders were not innocent. Still, not what the Hothis are doing and still just another example of your whataboutism and look over there approach to any discussion.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Getting furious when you learn about the Zegota.

I think you should read more about the Zegota, and then read more about this blockade running PR stunt and see they have about as much in common as a dog and an eggplant.

[GrantDawg]

Oh, fuck me. Iran has just launched missiles at the US consulate in Northern Iraq. Not a proxy, but the Islamic Republican Guard. That's the escalation no one wanted to see.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

[NobodyHere]

Sounds like it was more of a warning shot than a direct attack.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

It wasn't impeding free international trade because the ship was blockade running. Any more than stopping a drug runner is stopping free international trade. You are not stupid. You know the difference as well. They found Israel was over-aggressive, but they again said the blockade was legal and that the raiders were not innocent. Still, not what the Hothis are doing and still just another example of your whataboutism and look over there approach to any discussion.

You are mocking the death of people who are bringing humanitarian aid to some of the most oppressed people on the planet. Calling people bringing supplies to people in need "raiders". Justifying their slaughter by a commando unit because they had pipes on board their ship.

Just sociopathic shit to defend Biden. In any other scenario (Ukraine for instance), they would be hailed as heroes. Even the neocons that the Democrats have morphed into would feign compassion for the slaughter of humanitarian workers.

[GrantDawg]

They were not. They could have brought the aid through the port in Israel and none of this would have happened. Heck, they knew they were never getting into the port in Gaza. Most of the ships were deep water ships and the port in Gaza is a shallow water port where they would never be able to unload. The whole thing was done as protest which the group themselves admitted. The crew of the Mavi Marmara met the Israel forces with violence, throwing stun genades at the bording boats and attacking them as they entered the ship. Does that sound like a humanitarian mission? All the other ships showed peaceful resistance and there was very little incidents. That one ship wanted violence, which members of that crew admit.
It was a violent protest, and those usually end badly.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

[Edward64]

Article below said drones. More to come.

IRGC attack US consulate in Iraq as tensions between the US, Iran rise - The Jerusalem Post

According to a report on Al Jazeera, the American consulate in Erbil was attacked Monday evening by drones.

The Iranian Revolutionary Guards Corps (IRGC) accepted responsibility for the attack in northern Iraq.

The IRGC announced that they attacked an "intelligence headquarters and gathering place of anti-Iranian terrorist organizations in response to the latest terrorist crimes against Iran's enemies," according to them

[GrantDawg]

The State Department said no US facilities were harmed, so it sounds like they either missed or were intercepted.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

[GrantDawg]

Or, it actually was a spy facility and the State Department is not claiming it.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

They were not. They could have brought the aid through the port in Israel and none of this would have happened. Heck, they knew they were never getting into the port in Gaza. Most of the ships were deep water ships and the port in Gaza is a shallow water port where they would never be able to unload. The whole thing was done as protest which the group themselves admitted. The crew of the Mavi Marmara met the Israel forces with violence, throwing stun genades at the bording boats and attacking them as they entered the ship. Does that sound like a humanitarian mission? All the other ships showed peaceful resistance and there was very little incidents. That one ship wanted violence, which members of that crew admit.
It was a violent protest, and those usually end badly.

Israel would not let them through the port. They monitor what gets through down to the calorie (not kidding, they calculate the minimum calories required to avoid starvation and only allow that much through).

Do you really think a group wanted to confront one of the most advanced militaries in the world with some pipes and tools on the ship? That they planned to get into a violent confrontation with Israeli attack choppers with a Makita drill? Mind you that stun grenade came from the IDF and someone on the flotilla threw it back at them. Also, the IDF incessantly lies as we've seen these past few months (and past few decades).

Regardless, providing aid to some of the most oppressed people in the world is admirable. Whether it's in Ukraine, Somalia, Gaza, or wherever people are being abused. Only a sociopath would think it's appropriate to execute people for doing this. Especially in international waters.

[RainMaker]

I also don't know why you keep defending it. Israel apologized for their actions. They aren't even pretending they were in the right anymore.

[GrantDawg]

They apologized because they should have back off once the ship got violent. They could have prevented the ship from entering the port without boarding. They did not apologize for stopping rhe ship. Again, the UN ruled that the ship was violent. They ruled that the blockade was legal.
Btw, Israel delivered all of the humanitarian aid to Gaza just as they promised the ships if they would peacefully come to port to be inspected.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

[RainMaker]

Again, you think they intended to violently attack one of the most advanced militaries in the world with some pipes and power tools? Like that was the plan. And that the proportional response to a flotilla with humanitarian aid in international waters is to open fire from a blackhawk helicopter.

Like I said, this is sociopathic shit and anyone with an ounce of empathy toward others would be appalled at the treatment of those in Gaza and those who have been trying to aid their torturous conditions.

[GrantDawg]

"Do you really think a group wanted to confront one of the most advanced militaries in the world with some pipes and tools on the ship? That they planned to get into a violent confrontation with Israeli attack choppers with a Makita drill? Mind you that stun grenade came from the IDF and someone on the flotilla threw it back at them. Also, the IDF incessantly lies as we've seen these past few months (and past few decades)."
Yes. They wanted to die. Several of the crew members said they welcomed martyrdom before they left. They knew they couldn't win. They wanted to be hurt/killed. Why? Because people like you make them out to be heroes when they could have easily brought aid to the Israeli port peacefully.
This is all from the testimony from the crew to the UN. Not just IDF propaganda. They also have pictures proving what happened.
And beyond, this was your rabbit hole that we are running on because you are using this to compare it to the Hothis attacking ships in the Ref Sea, which even a curiosity glance will tell you is not even close to the same thing. You have water and boats, but that is about it.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

[RainMaker]

I have no doubt they expected to die. Israel has been murdering humanitarian aid workers, doctors, and journalists for a long time now. It's a brutal regime that targets civilians. And yes, anyone trying to help those who are being starved and oppressed at the risk of death are heroes in my book. I say the same for those working to help those in Myanmar, Somalia, Ukraine, North Korea, and other parts of the world.

The fact you think they could have just shown up to the port and been let through is comical. Those ports have been locked down and it's nearly impossible to get humanitarian aid through outside of the bare essentials. Israel has openly talked about how they restrict access to aid because they don't want any economy to build up in the strip. They count the calories that are allowed through ffs. I'm sure Israel said they would have let them through after the international uproar over the incident.

And I brought it up because you seem to be a big proponent of free commerce in international waters. However, that may only be true for those of certain religions or skin colors.

[GrantDawg]

Ok. That's a block. I know your love for anyone who hates America and Jews blinds you to simple facts, but I doubt it makes you as purposely dense as you come off. Go sell your racist hate to someone else.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk