The Obama Presidency - 2008 & 2012

[molson]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Is there anything that will cause GOP leaders to distance themselves from these folks?

What can they do except say that that shit ain't cool:

CNN Political Ticker: All politics, all the time Blog Archive - House Republicans denounce racial slurs hurled at Democrats « - Blogs from CNN.com

Otherwise, I think they do better to just ignore it. The health care debate isn't about race. Concerns about the economy, how the government spends our money, is not about race. Democrats can try to make it a racial issue, but Republicans (or independents), shouldn't take the bait, other than stating the obvious denouncement when asked about it.

[Greyroofoo]

I wish more congressman got spit on

[JPhillips]

It's good they did the right thing this morning. It would be great if they repeated that message at the events they attend, too.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

I wish more congressman got spit on

+1

[miked]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Well fuck you too buddy boy.

I harken back to what an old boss once said about me, that I "didn't suffer fools well nor long". I give a shit whether those fools are black, green, white, brown, or purple.

I'm also not big on tolerating the intolerable, excusing the inexcusable, or pretending that I like my enemies (defined loosely in this instance as those who place themselves in consistent diametric opposition to my own desires and/or interests).

I suppose I can see where, if a large percentage of people in an ethnic class happen to fall into one or more of those categories, that might appear to be racially motivated. But you'd be confusing positions based on behavior/actions with those based on race.

Well, seeing as how I know you are intelligent, it would seem better to make your argument without throwing racially insensitive (understatement) remarks out there. I am not happy with health care reform, I actually wrote a letter to my congressman about a bunch of stuff. I didn't drop the N-word, I didn't put a picture of a noose in the envelope, and I assume it was at least read by a low level staffer (I actually got an email response). I mean, you could have the most intelligent message in the world, but if you're shouting it while holding a stuffed monkey in a noose while carrying a glock strapped across your chest at a town hall, it's just not a good message.

I'm sorry you feel that people are free to act horribly because they want to express an opinion about a bill that will not affect them, but most of all I feel sorry for the rest of us because you are probably raising your offspring to do the similar or worse.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by miked

I mean, you could have the most intelligent message in the world, but if you're shouting it while holding a stuffed monkey in a noose while carrying a glock strapped across your chest at a town hall, it's just not a good message.

I'd be more likely to have a stuffed congressdoll in that scenario.

about a bill that will not affect them

What bill would that be? Because it certainly isn't health care, we'll all be paying for that boondoggle.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SteveBollea

But hey. We win. You lose. As much as I think the bill is only a first small step, the meltdown of the Right all over the Internet brings me great joy.

I'm actually suprisingly calm about the whole thing, I'm already resigned to the loss of this vote just not to the loss of the war. There's many a slip twixt the cup & the lip, it's that possibility that keeps me on a relatively even keel for now.

There are still numerous options to prevent this disaster from ever occurring, right now it's nothing more than the plan for the destruction of health care & the bankruptcy of the nation.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Incidentally, since there's apparently so much ado about race, maybe someone who has studied the likely votes could answer this for me. According to Wiki there are currently 42 black members of Congress. What does the vote scorecard look like for them? I honestly haven't even thought to look at the count that way until a few minutes ago but then again I can't identify every Rep by race (hell, give me a couple named Pat & I might not even be 100% on gender) but if someone is familiar enough I'd be interested in knowing what the numbers are.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SteveBollea

The only A-A member of Congress I know voting against the health care bill is Arthur Davis of Alabama, but that's because he's still of the crazy notion he can still become Governor of Alabama.

But, the rest voting for health care reform makes sense. They're mostly in low-income districts with lots of poverty and lack of health care options.

So 41-1, give or take a couple most likely.

Thanks for the info, I couldn't honestly have pulled Davis' name from a hat off the top of my head and couldn't have told you whether he was black, white, or green without Googling him.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

There are still numerous options to prevent this disaster from ever occurring, right now it's nothing more than the plan for the destruction of health care & the bankruptcy of the nation.

Do tell what in this bill destroys health care and bankrupts the nation.

[miked]

I know my congressman (who is black) is voting for HCR (Hank Johnson) but mostly because he represents a largely well educated, liberal area (my guess is John Lewis is voting as well). Moreso about economics than race (at least for Lewis), but it still doesn't really give people the right to dehumanize and incite violence. But apparently that's what it has boiled down to.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Edward64

My hopes are

1. Some massive overhaul for healthcare to fix the problem. Not sure if socialized 100% coverage is the right solution but something beyond $5K tax credits needs to be done.
2. Serious Energy program. Encourage alternate fuels etc. Not sure what the solution is but with gas back down to < $2, I am concerned this will no longer be the focus.
3. Stabilize Iraq. Militarily for sure, not sure about politically. Refocus on Afghanistan and get that SOB (preferably dead).
4. Improve world opinion of the US. I think Hillary and Bill and accomplish this!

Well, he got #1 done. #3 is relatively stabilized (from 2 years ago). Not sure about #4, I think its think its working out as there doesn't seem to be as much America bashing as during the Bush era.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by miked

but it still doesn't really give people the right to dehumanize and incite violence.

I don't consider anyone who voted for this disaster as having enough intelligence to qualify as "human". If the country, what little is left of it & whether it deserves it or not, is to be saved it will apparently have to be done by any means necessary.

But apparently that's what it has boiled down to.

You ain't seen nothing yet.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I don't consider anyone who voted for this disaster as having enough intelligence to qualify as "human". If the country, what little is left of it & whether it deserves it or not, is to be saved it will apparently have to be done by any means necessary.



You ain't seen nothing yet.

Wouldn't you be happier posting on a messageboard that was more...attuned to your beliefs and political leanings Jon?

Seems like you're always involved in angsty back-and-forth with folks here - I can't imagine why you continue to post here.

[sterlingice]

That's pretty easy. Aside from politics, there are a lot of common points a lot of us have with JIMGA. It just turns out that on politics we are wildly divergent.

SI

[DaddyTorgo]

well i was referring more to the political threads in particular

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

well i was referring more to the political threads in particular

Go back & take a look at the various political threads DT, check & see how often I start a politopic (hey I made a new word) vs simply replying to targets of opportunity. I pick & choose my moments to respond as the mood strikes me, you'd probably be surprised how rarely I introduce this stuff (indeed if you could go back far enough I'm pretty sure you'd find more than one occasion where I've agreed with the call for FOFC to be declared a politics-free zone).

At the same time, I'm simply not willing to allow an entirely free reign of the left on the interwebz, unresponded to. I pretty much live in the "real world" the same way. I'll let X amount of crap be spewed in my presence, and respond to relatively little. When those responses do come they're, hmm, I'd say about 4/5 calculated and about 1/5 Howard Beale, just boiled over and any & all consequences be damned, becomes a Popeye the Sailor thing ("stands what I can stands", etc)

I do what I can to limit my exposure here, my ignore list is pushing 100 at this point, that allows me to at least function without it being constant. To be sure, I'll click on ignored at times, sometimes for amusement, sometimes for masochistic reasons, once in a very odd while I'll even use it for motivation to remind me what I'm fighting against, but most often to either retain the context of a thread or to get the context of something that had a quoted snippet elsewhere in the thread.

Ultimately it really boils down to what SI kind of alluded to (and what I've said myself outright numerous times), ultimately I stick around because FOFC is as good as I've seen at providing a wide range of information on a wide range of topics. I try to give as good as I get, I do virtually no filtering about the person asking a question if I've got something that could help them (I could probably count on one hand the number of times I've done that & with fingers left over) & I don't believe very many people here act any differently. I've both given & gotten answers to/from people who we otherwise tend to ignore each other here as much as possible, it's a very functional sort of dysfunctional if you will.

[Greyroofoo]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Wouldn't you be happier posting on a messageboard that was more...attuned to your beliefs and political leanings Jon?

Seems like you're always involved in angsty back-and-forth with folks here - I can't imagine why you continue to post here.

Because only posting with people who agree with you is boring?

Personally I like the fact that there is a good range of perspectives on this board.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Go back & take a look at the various political threads DT, check & see how often I start a politopic (hey I made a new word) vs simply replying to targets of opportunity. I pick & choose my moments to respond as the mood strikes me, you'd probably be surprised how rarely I introduce this stuff (indeed if you could go back far enough I'm pretty sure you'd find more than one occasion where I've agreed with the call for FOFC to be declared a politics-free zone).

At the same time, I'm simply not willing to allow an entirely free reign of the left on the interwebz, unresponded to. I pretty much live in the "real world" the same way. I'll let X amount of crap be spewed in my presence, and respond to relatively little. When those responses do come they're, hmm, I'd say about 4/5 calculated and about 1/5 Howard Beale, just boiled over and any & all consequences be damned, becomes a Popeye the Sailor thing ("stands what I can stands", etc)

I do what I can to limit my exposure here, my ignore list is pushing 100 at this point, that allows me to at least function without it being constant. To be sure, I'll click on ignored at times, sometimes for amusement, sometimes for masochistic reasons, once in a very odd while I'll even use it for motivation to remind me what I'm fighting against, but most often to either retain the context of a thread or to get the context of something that had a quoted snippet elsewhere in the thread.

Ultimately it really boils down to what SI kind of alluded to (and what I've said myself outright numerous times), ultimately I stick around because FOFC is as good as I've seen at providing a wide range of information on a wide range of topics. I try to give as good as I get, I do virtually no filtering about the person asking a question if I've got something that could help them (I could probably count on one hand the number of times I've done that & with fingers left over) & I don't believe very many people here act any differently. I've both given & gotten answers to/from people who we otherwise tend to ignore each other here as much as possible, it's a very functional sort of dysfunctional if you will.

that makes sense - and you know we do see eye-to-eye on some things, so i wasn't trying to come at you hard or anything.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

Because only posting with people who agree with you is boring?

Eh, I might argue that point a little.

I won't, it's too damned late/early to do it. But I could.

[Greyroofoo]

Different strokes for different folks then.

[JPhillips]

Well hell. I got up early this morning, put on my Stalin wig, Hitler stache and Mao suit and ran outside to see the show trials in our commufascist hellstate. You can imagine how disappointed I was when the world looked just like it did yesterday.

I guess this means I have to go to work.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Well hell. I got up early this morning, put on my Stalin wig, Hitler stache and Mao suit and ran outside to see the show trials in our commufascist hellstate. You can imagine how disappointed I was when the world looked just like it did yesterday.

Patience comrade. Moscow was not built in a day.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Patience comrade. Moscow was not built in a day.

Moscow may not have been built in a day, but the Russian Revolution (IIRC) took considerably less than a month. JPhillips' disappointment is understandable.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by panerd

This is the truth. The Democrats are never going to win over the racist wing of the Republican party. They should instead focus winning over the ACLU conservative or the anti-war conservative. Instead they waste their time fighting with the idiots.

(Same could be said for the ultra-liberal wing of the Democrats. The Republicans should be after the Democrats that want to cut back government spending instead of arguing with the hippie wing of the Democratc party)

Good post, good analysis.

The only thing I'd add is that the GOP has done a better job of painting the entire Democratic party as its extreme left-wing hippie element than the Democratic party has done painting the GOP as right-wing nutcases.

The Tea Party, however, may end up doing the Democrats' work for them.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

You ain't seen nothing yet.

Quite, even with you promising armed revolution every year or so on this board (even in this thread).

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Well hell. I got up early this morning, put on my Stalin wig, Hitler stache and Mao suit and ran outside to see the show trials in our commufascist hellstate. You can imagine how disappointed I was when the world looked just like it did yesterday.

I guess this means I have to go to work.

Despite the fact that the Simpsons had a great gag where McBain fights the Commu-Nazis with emblems that were half Swastika and half hammer and sickle, it's just odd to me that somehow it's ok in political discourse to put those together like peas in a pod. I mean, ideologically they're as far apart as possible. Tho, I suppose we've never actually seen a Communist state. At the end of the day, Russia, China, Cuba, et al, have all been dictatorships dressed up as Communism and maybe that's where the confusion comes from.

SI

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Despite the fact that the Simpsons had a great gag where McBain fights the Commu-Nazis with emblems that were half Swastika and half hammer and sickle, it's just odd to me that somehow it's ok in political discourse to put those together like peas in a pod. I mean, ideologically they're as far apart as possible. Tho, I suppose we've never actually seen a Communist state. At the end of the day, Russia, China, Cuba, et al, have all been dictatorships dressed up as Communism and maybe that's where the confusion comes from.

SI

it's just intellectual laziness...or stupidity. take your pick.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Just happened to notice the poll results at this point on this thread. They used to be favoring Obama by a pretty decent margin. They're now basically dead even (maybe slight Obama favor if you include the 'Great' though I can't see how anyone can consider this presidency great before now or even now), which means there's a pretty large turnout of 'Bad' votes in recent weeks/months by posters who didn't vote initially. Seems to mirror the declining poll numbers for Obama.

[Kodos]

Cuz most Presidents usually keep the same high rating throughout their presidency? Never have dips. That sort of thing?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Kodos

Cuz most Presidents usually keep the same high rating throughout their presidency? Never have dips. That sort of thing?

Certainly not nor was that my implication. I was just a bit surprised to see that shift given the general leanings of the people involved in the discussion. I didn't think it would ever shift anywhere close to neutral.

[miked]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Certainly not nor was that my implication. I was just a bit surprised to see that shift given the general leanings of the people involved in the discussion. I didn't think it would ever shift anywhere close to neutral.

You use the word shift, can people change their votes? Is it possible that some of the more conservative posters have come in here and voted no? Also, you say you don't understand what could be great, but the poll is very subjective. The "great", "good", etc all refer to personal expectations. So if you're expectations are rather low, then sure, he's doing a bang-up job. Likewise, if you're biggest desire was to have HCR passed in some format, then another win I suppose.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by miked

You use the word shift, can people change their votes? Is it possible that some of the more conservative posters have come in here and voted no?

1. People can't change their vote.
2. I'd assume that the conservative posters voted just as early and often as the liberal posters.

[miked]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

1. People can't change their vote.
2. I'd assume that the conservative posters voted just as early and often as the liberal posters.

I don't know where you'd make that assumption. But as I said, there is more flawed than just that.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by miked

I don't know where you'd make that assumption. But as I said, there is more flawed than just that.

It's open to interpretation. Given how upset conservatives were to lose that election, I would think that they'd vote right off the bat just in spite as much as the liberals would vote out of enthusiasm.

Interpretation of the poll question could play some role on an individual vote basis, but I think it evens itself out in the end.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

If this poll is as accurate as Pennsylvania polls, we're all fucked.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

If this poll is as accurate as Pennsylvania polls, we're all fucked.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Quite, even with you promising armed revolution every year or so on this board (even in this thread).

Wasn't aware I'd ever put a timetable on it, only noting on more than one occasion that it seemed increasingly likely and/or was getting closer.
I don't know that we've been closer at any point in the last 40 years (essentially my lifetime) than we've been today.

On a minorly related tangent, simply since I'm posting anyway ... An entirely anecdotal mention of a point someone mentioned about the conservative angst level on the internet, I was ... hmm, "interested" might be the closest word to my reaction at seeing political comments this morning from acquaintances that I not only didn't know their political leanings but couldn't have sworn they even had any political leanings. By & large, strictly from the subset of people that I know personally & see online, it's probably 75% despair and 25% madder than I am.

The other really quirky thing about my little subset? That nearly all of the comments were from women, not men. Almost to the point that it made me wonder if there was something specifically upsetting to women about the bill as passed (other than the abortion stuff, which I discount since a lot of the commentary came from people I believe are almost certain to be anti-abortion). Further adding to the weirdness, with a couple of exceptions, I haven't seen anything from what I'd consider my usual political suspects.

Means absolutely zilch in the big picture, I just found it to be an interesting phenomenon within my little universe, definitely caught me off guard.

[JPhillips]

The DKos poll that was cited a while back on Republican beliefs has new confirmation. Here's the results of a new Harris poll:

* 67 percent of Republicans (and 40 percent of Americans overall) believe that Obama is a socialist.
* 57 percent of Republicans (32 percent overall) believe that Obama is a Muslim
* 45 percent of Republicans (25 percent overall) agree with the Birthers in their belief that Obama was "not born in the United States and so is not eligible to be president"
* 38 percent of Republicans (20 percent overall) say that Obama is "doing many of the things that Hitler did"
* 24 percent of Republicans (14 percent overall) say that Obama "may be the Antichrist."

[panerd]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

The DKos poll that was cited a while back on Republican beliefs has new confirmation. Here's the results of a new Harris poll:

Sixty percent believe in the story of Noah's ark and a global flood, while 64 percent agree that Moses parted the Red Sea to save fleeing Jews from their Egyptian captors.

18 percent believe the sun revolves around the Earth.

35% of Democrats believe George W. Bush knew about the attacks prior to 9-11.


Conclusion: I wouldn't put too much faith in the American people for critical thinking.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by panerd

18 percent believe the sun revolves around the Earth.

Please tell me this one is made up.

[DaddyTorgo]

just confirmation that the American people as a whole are fucking idiots.

[gstelmack]

For those complaining about the Tea Partiers, I give you the NAACP and the ivory tower educational establishment:

Protest, arrests as Wake schools prepare to vote on diversity policy :: WRAL.com

The key thing to note is this schoolboard meeting is beind held at the same time of day / location it has for at least a decade. The previous schoolboard was famous for changing dates at the last minute to avoid any attempt by opposition parents to attend without a single remark by the media. The new board refuses an offer to move the meeting at the last minute to the local opera house so that the NAACP can pack it with protesters (with little time or notice for others who typically attend to take note of the change), and this is what happens.

Interestingly the local newspaper, who we also had nothing bad to say about the prior board and nothing good to say about this one, was one of the ones willing to pay for the change of venue. Nice independent media we have around here.

For those who haven't followed along with my tirades on this issue over the last year or two, the big reason this is getting attention from the national NAACP is that Wake County is one of the pioneers in using "socio-economic status" to implement diversity busing to get around the Supreme Court ruling that you can't use race as a factor, and the new school board just voted in is getting rid of that in favor of a policy favoring locality as a key factor in school assignments.

[ace1914]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

For those complaining about the Tea Partiers, I give you the NAACP and the ivory tower educational establishment:

Protest, arrests as Wake schools prepare to vote on diversity policy :: WRAL.com

The key thing to note is this schoolboard meeting is beind held at the same time of day / location it has for at least a decade. The previous schoolboard was famous for changing dates at the last minute to avoid any attempt by opposition parents to attend without a single remark by the media. The new board refuses an offer to move the meeting at the last minute to the local opera house so that the NAACP can pack it with protesters (with little time or notice for others who typically attend to take note of the change), and this is what happens.

Interestingly the local newspaper, who we also had nothing bad to say about the prior board and nothing good to say about this one, was one of the ones willing to pay for the change of venue. Nice independent media we have around here.

For those who haven't followed along with my tirades on this issue over the last year or two, the big reason this is getting attention from the national NAACP is that Wake County is one of the pioneers in using "socio-economic status" to implement diversity busing to get around the Supreme Court ruling that you can't use race as a factor, and the new school board just voted in is getting rid of that in favor of a policy favoring locality as a key factor in school assignments.

I'm interested in knowing why the change. Is the bus system too expensive?

[molson]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

For those complaining about the Tea Partiers, I give you the NAACP and the ivory tower educational establishment:

Protest, arrests as Wake schools prepare to vote on diversity policy :: WRAL.com

The key thing to note is this schoolboard meeting is beind held at the same time of day / location it has for at least a decade. The previous schoolboard was famous for changing dates at the last minute to avoid any attempt by opposition parents to attend without a single remark by the media. The new board refuses an offer to move the meeting at the last minute to the local opera house so that the NAACP can pack it with protesters (with little time or notice for others who typically attend to take note of the change), and this is what happens.

Interestingly the local newspaper, who we also had nothing bad to say about the prior board and nothing good to say about this one, was one of the ones willing to pay for the change of venue. Nice independent media we have around here.

For those who haven't followed along with my tirades on this issue over the last year or two, the big reason this is getting attention from the national NAACP is that Wake County is one of the pioneers in using "socio-economic status" to implement diversity busing to get around the Supreme Court ruling that you can't use race as a factor, and the new school board just voted in is getting rid of that in favor of a policy favoring locality as a key factor in school assignments.

The one scenario I think affirmative action is OK is admission to college/law school/private school....I can see why a university would want to have a diverse student body. It's not that we're "paying back" minority races in that sense, it's just that a university should be free to assemble a student body from a variety of backgrounds, if that's what it wants to do.

But the busing/economic diversity thing at the local public school system is so dopey. It just creates labels, and tension, and destroys any sense of community pride in a particular school. I'm all for more equitable funding of schools across a state (nobody should be sentenced to failure by being forced to attend truly shitty public schools), but this shit does more harm than good.

[molson]

Originally Posted by panerd

Conclusion: I wouldn't put too much faith in the American people for critical thinking.

There's something just off in those polls I think, the way they're administered. At least, that's what I choose to believe.

[Greyroofoo]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

The DKos poll that was cited a while back on Republican beliefs has new confirmation. Here's the results of a new Harris poll:

link?

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

link?

I've only found stories on the poll. I went to Harris, but it seems like they hold onto their data.

[SirFozzie]

Majority of Republicans: Obama is a Muslim

Harris apparently will release the full poll tommorrow

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by ace1914

I'm interested in knowing why the change. Is the bus system too expensive?

Long story, but it involves massive reassignments every year in order to try and make sure no school is more than 40% Free & Reduced Lunch, kids getting on buses at 5:30 AM and getting home after 5:00 PM so they can be shipped across the county, often driving past many schools, the expense of doing the busing, the complete lack of evidence that it's actually helping the "poor" kids do better in school (and in fact plenty of evidence that the way to fix a poor-performing school is with community programs to get neighborhood pride in the school and educating the children), the school board not following its own rules on these assignments, and the way they were doing the assignments made it clear that what they were REALLY doing was hiding test scores, taking low performing neighborhoods and moving them to high performing schools so that no school was "failing" under No Child Left Behind.

Parents got tired of the constant reassignments and having their kids bused 18+ miles away for pretty much zero return and voted in 4 new board members to give a majority that is in favor of community-based schools.