COVID-19 - Wuhan Coronavirus (a non-political thread, see pg. 36 #1778)

[albionmoonlight]

What's the theory? The hospitals are letting them die on purpose?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

What's the theory? The hospitals are letting them die on purpose?

I read an article where a doctor was saying a lot of people are asking for the vaccine literally with their last breath. I doubt these people have a solid reason how or why the doctors and hospitals killed them, they just refuse to hold the person accountable for their own actions that led them there, so they have to blame someone.

[Ksyrup]

This story has been in the news here on several channels this week.

Cancer patient told to wait for hospital beds to have surgery

[Lathum]

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...covid-n1274659

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

This story has been in the news here on several channels this week.

Cancer patient told to wait for hospital beds to have surgery

The crazy thing is Beshear has actually had a good head on his shoulders about this all from what I have seen. Can you imagine the ones like DeSantis, Abbot, Noem, etc...

[molson]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

What's the theory? The hospitals are letting them die on purpose?

Something to do with not providing the right treatments they read about on conservative blogs or something.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Lathum

The crazy thing is Beshear has actually had a good head on his shoulders about this all from what I have seen. Can you imagine the ones like DeSantis, Abbot, Noem, etc...

It's beyond frustrating. He has handled the pandemic so well, steering clear of politics and focusing on science in making decisions. The GOP-controlled legislature is of course pissed at all of this, so they passed laws earlier this year to restrict the executive branch's ability to govern during an emergency, requiring that any executive decisions be brought before the legislature to determine whether to continue them going forward.

So, Beshear is effectively powerless going forward, and the legislature is going to decide what will or won't be allowed. I believe some of his emergency administrative regs are allowed to continue until January (for now), but they are likely going to remove school mask mandates, for one.

Meanwhile, our positivity rate is over 14% and we're averaging like 5K cases a day, breaking records from last year and now the past couple of weeks on the daily.

I'm still completely baffled by the end game on the anti-mask and anti-virtual school crowd. NO ONE wants schools to have to go virtual, but no masks means infections continue to rise, which means more kids/staff are out of school due to positive tests and quarantining, which means at some point you reach a critical mass of just not being able to have school. Lexington has been cancelling 6-12 bus routes a day, calling parents the morning of as bus drivers call in sick or they don't have enough drivers for all of the routes. I just don't get what freedom to not wear a mask gets you when your kid is forced to sit in their house for school, which is what everyone complained about last year.

[Lathum]

Yeah, I heard him on CNN and he sounded really tired and frustrated.

As for the endgame, there isn't one and the goalposts will move. We have a very vocal group of anti mask parents here in my town. You literally can not interact with them. I've asked what the end game is. They say no masks in school. I say, ok, then what happens when infections rise and we have to quarantine or go virtual. They ask why and state the virus isn't dangerous to kids, and if the teachers are vaccinated what is the big deal.

[Lathum]

I listen to a lot of metal/punk rock and subscribe to some bands pages on Facebook. A lot of bands are requiring proof of vax for shows, either because the venue, ticket seller, etc...and it is amazing how many people take the line that they remember when punk rock was anti establishment.

When has anti establishment been about killing yourself to own the man?

[Arles]

The wife and I are traveling to Jamaica in two weeks for our 10-year wedding anniversary. We are both fully vaccinated and it's through Sandals (they *seem* to have things fairly locked down). They routinely test all their staff and we have to test 72 hours before the flight, when we arrive and then 72 hours before we come back. Also, since it is all inclusive, we don't carry cash/cards while at the resort. We are a little stressed, but have been looking at the August and September reviews (when Jamaica ticked up in cases) and none have mentioned getting covid (almost all have been positive). It seems like there's a curfew/lockdown that is preventing a lot of movement on the island with most of the cases happening in hospitals and non-resort areas.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

What's the theory? The hospitals are letting them die on purpose?

Originally Posted by molson

Something to do with not providing the right treatments they read about on conservative blogs or something.

Yeah, the doctors are using the wrong treatments, using the CDC protocol or some nonsense. Patients can't just go into a hospital like it's a Burger King and have it your way, demanding doctors treat them with horse paste, essential oils, extra vitamin supplements, "the treatment our Real President got", and prayers to OT God that saves them because they're righteous but condemns everyone else like, well, old school OT God.

SI

[molson]

If I was morally corrupt I'd setup an alternative "Patriot hospital" around here where masks are banned, you must sign an affidavit indicating that you have not been vaccinated, and we only use treatments mentioned on Fox News or Facebook conspiracy groups. And prayer.

[JPhillips]

I've read people saying ventilators are actually what is killing people.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I've read people saying ventilators are actually what is killing people.

That reminds me of the old tech support joke that the magic smoke in CPUs is what keeps them working. Once that smoke releases from the PC board, the PC no longer works.

[Ksyrup]

This is both sad and hilarious. This is the GOP today - just meme-ing empty, stupid, conflated "messages" that don't even make sense. I mean... apparently the unvaccinated don't think their lives matter!

Who is he trying to convince - them, or us?

Unvaccinated Lives Matter!

— Jim Banks (@RepJimBanks) September 9, 2021

[molson]

We want then to get a vaccine, they don't, and we're the ones who think their lives don't matter?

[Ksyrup]

Today was D-day at my company and 4 people (out of about 50-60 total) resigned. I think 3 were anti-science/doctor and likely at least a little political, and 1 was not (I don't know her politics but I believe she is may be total anti-vaxx/clean living/eating type).

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I've read people saying ventilators are actually what is killing people.

I wish these people would stop going to the hospital.

[Kodos]

If it's "just the flu," don't go to the hospital. Ride it out at home. That way the doctors can't kill you.

[whomario]

Most amazingly random moment: There's an influential disinformation club/group with exactly 25 active members (the one responsible for the terribly "save 3 but kill 2" antivaxx study retracted in record time). A german magazine (think The Atlantic) went to a hospital to interview doctors and speak to unvaccinated patients for a video report. And who just happens to be there ? One of those 25, a (surprise !) Economics Professor. In a country of 83 mio with 2000 hospitals and roughly 7500 in them with Covid. And the team had no idea.

It was perfect. Hope everybody eventually recovers, but until then it's the worlds smallest violin playing. And of course no rugrats from him. It helps, that (surprise !) his Homepage is also full of ugly shit on other topics from defending racist mass murderers to whining on and on about his rights as a white hetero male are stripped. (Plus a blog post where he already claimed to have beaten the "slightly annoying" disease in heroic fashion)

[whomario]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I've read people saying ventilators are actually what is killing people.

That's been around from the start. There was actually a brief point it was 'true' in the sense doctors had to trial and error the way to finding the best 'dosage' and timing and quite frankly judging where the attempt even made sense, as it is brutally taxing for the body (there is a reason the average age in ICU has always been 15+ years lower than average age of all dead).

[Edward64]

My company announced vaccinations required by Nov.

They should have done it sooner but better late than never.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Today was D-day at my company and 4 people (out of about 50-60 total) resigned. I think 3 were anti-science/doctor and likely at least a little political, and 1 was not (I don't know her politics but I believe she is may be total anti-vaxx/clean living/eating type).

More power to them. Were they "terminated" or left voluntarily ... are they eligible for unemployment?

I assume HR, in companies mandating vaccinations, can ask the question "are you vaccinated, provide proof". Probably tougher for them to find next job.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Arles

That reminds me of the old tech support joke that the magic smoke in CPUs is what keeps them working. Once that smoke releases from the PC board, the PC no longer works.

Never heard this one. Had a good chuckle.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Edward64

More power to them. Were they "terminated" or left voluntarily ... are they eligible for unemployment?

I assume HR, in companies mandating vaccinations, can ask the question "are you vaccinated, provide proof". Probably tougher for them to find next job.

They resigned as far as I know. Today was decision day so I guess it could have played out - I'm not resigning today, go ahead and fire me. Not sure about unemployment. I heard a couple of them have made some noise about suing. Perhaps the end game is to take their sweet time looking for a job, sue, get a decent settlement that will pay for a 6 month vacation, and then find somewhere to work at their leisure.

[Edward64]

Basically, Singapore even with its high vaccination rate is getting hit with Delta. Below says 88% but I saw something like 78+% but that might be due to tot pop vs elig pop. They are trying to figure out how to "live with Covid".

E3B1C256-BFCB-4CEF-88A6-1DCCD7666635

Quarantine-free travel and progressively loosened social-distancing restrictions – those were the incentives Singapore’s authorities promised residents in a bid to shore up vaccination rates.

From Wednesday, with 88 per cent of the country’s eligible population now fully inoculated, fully-vaccinated Singapore residents will have a green light to travel to Germany and Brunei and return without serving quarantine, after almost two years of being told remain on an island slightly smaller than New York City.

The government’s cautious stance has once again cast the spotlight on the difficulties that Asian economies – which initially closed their borders and relied on tough restrictions – are facing in their transition to living with Covid-19, as it becomes clearer that vaccinations alone cannot fend off the more virulent Delta variant.

If 88% isn't enough to stop this sucker, what does that mean for "herd immunity"?

[Flasch186]

I think it means globally the economist has it right that the death count is way way higher than we’re being exposed to here in the states. Some countries are being decimated and it’s just not getting out news wise. 2022 might be the beginning of the crisis that we learn about in some foreign lands.


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[QuikSand]

We have a large school system in MD that is preparing to go beyond requiring "vax or test" for their employees, and to a full-on vax mandate. Hard to say how widespread this goes, but it does feel like the sneaky next frontier in the whole carrot/stick/shotgun debate we're having.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Edward64

If 88% isn't enough to stop this sucker, what does that mean for "herd immunity"?

From what I've read, herd immunity isn't going to be effective because of the possibility of re-infections, breakthroughs, etc. It's a mitigating factor only. That's one of the reasons why I'm on the 'living with it' side much more strongly now that I was, say, a year ago; there are places in the world where we're never getting to 88%, and the virus is just going to keep circulating and mutating. Having it do enough to limit the amount of deaths/serious cases is likely the best-case scenario.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

From what I've read, herd immunity isn't going to be effective because of the possibility of re-infections, breakthroughs, etc. It's a mitigating factor only. That's one of the reasons why I'm on the 'living with it' side much more strongly now that I was, say, a year ago; there are places in the world where we're never getting to 88%, and the virus is just going to keep circulating and mutating. Having it do enough to limit the amount of deaths/serious cases is likely the best-case scenario.

Agree. We'll learn to live with booster shots, treat it like a flu++, accepted the increased deaths, have better therapeutic treatments etc. and come to a new normal.

At a certain point (e.g. maybe when vaccination is available for < 12), masks will become voluntary everywhere except maybe on small enclose places like a plane.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Agree. We'll learn to live with booster shots, treat it like a flu++, accepted the increased deaths, have better therapeutic treatments etc. and come to a new normal.

At a certain point (e.g. maybe when vaccination is available for < 12), masks will become voluntary everywhere except maybe on small enclose places like a plane.

Yeah, I think this is right. The positive aspect is that serious illness seems to be fairly rare with vaccinated people who contract the delta version. So, as long as people stay up on their vaccine (and boosters), the hospital impact should start to lessen.

[Flasch186]

And one group of people will suffer immensely

I’m not sure how to square that circle in the long run when the death and dismay remains contained mostly on one side of the aisle (according to everyone else except one person).

It’ll be at strange time in our country when the virus’s worst effects are segregated to that group while the other basically lives (with some exceptions).


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[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Arles

as long as people stay up on their vaccine (and boosters), the hospital impact should start to lessen.

This is the part that's thorny IMO, vaccine fatigue. Do people keep taking it as much as they are now, or does it drop more to where flu vaccines are? Of course that will depend on how much the overall health situation improves.

[Edward64]

Looks like < 12 is progressing along.

There was a theory that people had worse reactions to the shot if they already had covid previously? If true, I wonder if that applies to boosters, worse reaction because they had been previously vaccinated.

Pfizer’s Close To Seeking Approval For COVID-19 Vaccine In Kids 5 And Up

The makers of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine are preparing to release the results of their study involving 5-to-11-year-olds, which seem promising. “In the coming weeks we will present the results of our study on the 5- to-11-year-olds worldwide to the authorities and apply for approval of the vaccine for this age group, including here in Europe,” BioNTech Chief Physician Özlem Türeci told German newspaper Der Spiegel.

“We’re already preparing for production. The vaccine is the same, but less dosed and there is less need to fill up,” Türeci said. Basically, the study has to go through all the legal hoops, and then we can start seeing some movement in actual vaccinations for kids. In Europe, children under the age of 12 could start getting vaccinated as early as mid-October.

“It looks good, everything is going according to plan,” BioNTech cofounder Uğur Şahin said. Data sets on children ages six months and older are expected by the end of the year — hopefully meaning even more vaccine eligibility for our kids.

[Edward64]

Back to my post #1 on 2/3/20, the NYT article said

The biggest uncertainty now, experts said, is how many people around the world will die. SARS killed about 10 percent of those who got it, and MERS now kills about one of three.

The 1918 “Spanish flu” killed only about 2.5 percent of its victims — but because it infected so many people and medical care was much cruder then, 20 million to 50 million died.

By contrast, the highly transmissible H1N1 “swine flu” pandemic of 2009 killed about 285,000, fewer than seasonal flu normally does, and had a relatively low fatality rate, estimated at .02 percent.

The mortality rate for known cases of the Wuhan coronavirus has been running about 2 percent, although that is likely to drop as more tests are done and more mild cases are found.

FWIW, using worldometers and "per infected/cases"

US deaths = 678,000 and total cases = 41,820,000 or a mortality rate of 1.6%
World deaths = 4,640,000 and total cases = 225,187,374 or a mortality rate of 2.1%

For "per total population"

US population = 328,000,000. So total cases are 41.8M / 328M = 12.7% and mortality is 678K / 328M = .2%
World population = 7.9B. So total cases are 225M / 7,900M = 2.85% and mortality is 4.6M / 7.9B = .05%

For excess deaths, Economist article estimated up to 18.5M for the world. It's behind a paywall so didn't get the US.

World population = 7.9B. So global mortality = 18.5M / 7.9B = .23%

The mortality stats per total pop will worse without all the mitigations (lock downs, no travel and quarantines etc.) and vaccines. Not sure how to calculate without those factors.

But taken at face value, this is where we are to the best of my google-fu.

IMO, looking at it as "per total infected/cases" vs "per total US/World population" does change the perspective some.

[Ksyrup]

For US counties, right now 6 of the top 10 highest Covid cases per 100,000 are in KY. Three are in TN, 1 in OK.

If you look at hospitalized per 100,000, top 3 are ND, then the next 4 are GA, followed by 3 in TX.

[QuikSand]

It just never even occurred to me to have "Nurses" on my COVID worries Bingo card but...

A hospital in upstate N.Y. said it’ll need to pause baby deliveries soon because 6 out of its 18 maternity nurses quit over a covid vaccine mandate and 7 didn’t say if they’d get their shots. They’d expected to deliver about 200 babies in 2021.https://t.co/eCJ0DlKZba

— John Yoon (@johnyoooon) September 13, 2021

...here we are, apparently. (As already noted in this thread more than once)

[Butter]

interested to see how long these lazy people can go jobless before they feel the squeeze

[Arles]

It's wild to me that some police, fire, nurses and other health care personnel aren't getting the vaccine. Given the number of potential infected people they get around - what is the logic in passing on the vaccine? Just seems reckless

[henry296]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

It just never even occurred to me to have "Nurses" on my COVID worries Bingo card but...

A hospital in upstate N.Y. said it’ll need to pause baby deliveries soon because 6 out of its 18 maternity nurses quit over a covid vaccine mandate and 7 didn’t say if they’d get their shots. They’d expected to deliver about 200 babies in 2021.https://t.co/eCJ0DlKZba

— John Yoon (@johnyoooon) September 13, 2021

...here we are, apparently. (As already noted in this thread more than once)

I did see a stat recently that 7 out of 8 nurses are vaccinated so that is 87.5% which is well above the national average. If the rest of the country was at that level we would be much better off.

[henry296]

Originally Posted by Butter

interested to see how long these lazy people can go jobless before they feel the squeeze

That is my wife's question. Given that is a NY mandate where are these nurses going to work? I'm guessing for some, they are a 2nd income and feel like they can do with out and hope it goes away.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

It just never even occurred to me to have "Nurses" on my COVID worries Bingo card but...

A hospital in upstate N.Y. said it’ll need to pause baby deliveries soon because 6 out of its 18 maternity nurses quit over a covid vaccine mandate and 7 didn’t say if they’d get their shots. They’d expected to deliver about 200 babies in 2021.https://t.co/eCJ0DlKZba
— John Yoon (@johnyoooon) September 13, 2021

...here we are, apparently. (As already noted in this thread more than once)

Considering my experience with maternity and OBGYN nurses, this doesn't shock me at all

SI

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by henry296

I did see a stat recently that 7 out of 8 nurses are vaccinated so that is 87.5% which is well above the national average. If the rest of the country was at that level we would be much better off.

I do think that we have a bit of "Man bites Dog" going on with reporting.

For instance, me, my wife, and my eligible kid all got vaccinated. And we haven't had any COVID problems. So I haven't posted about it. Why would I? You don't post about nothing. And I wonder how many millions of people are just not posting about nothing.

But every breakthrough infection or person who loudly quits over mandates is going to get noticed.

It seems hard to find good data versus trying to get a sense of what is happening through stories.

[bhlloy]

So I may have gotten into a phase 2 clinical trial developed specifically for transplant patients. Weighing up whether to do this now vs wait for Pfizer - the real trade off for me is with the clinical trial I will be very closely monitored for antibodies and side effects, and will know after a couple of months how effective it was, whereas Pfizer is probably safer but potentially not as effective and I would basically be on my own and relying on publicly available antibody tests to see if I had any protection - which have their own issues.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Arles

It's wild to me that some police, fire, nurses and other health care personnel aren't getting the vaccine. Given the number of potential infected people they get around - what is the logic in passing on the vaccine? Just seems reckless

I don't think it really matters what job you have if you are convinced the pandemic isn't real, or isn't that big a deal, or that you only have a responsibility to yourself and will take your chances since you're healthy, young, protected by God, [insert reason/excuse here]. If you don't think you are going to get sick or can get sick, the number of people you are around becomes irrelevant.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I don't think it really matters what job you have if you are convinced the pandemic isn't real, or isn't that big a deal, or that you only have a responsibility to yourself and will take your chances since you're healthy, young, protected by God, [insert reason/excuse here]. If you don't think you are going to get sick or can get sick, the number of people you are around becomes irrelevant.

Yeah, if you think this is just a cold, why do you care how many people you are around?

SI

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Arles

It's wild to me that some police, fire, nurses and other health care personnel aren't getting the vaccine. Given the number of potential infected people they get around - what is the logic in passing on the vaccine?

I think it has to do with not trusting the vaccine itself. That seems to be the common thread with those not wanting it here, the protests that are also taking place in some European countries with health workers, etc.

[RainMaker]

Police and fire don't surprise me. Little surprised by nurses although I'm wondering how many of those were on the front lines of the pandemic and how many are like nurses at a podiatrist office.

[Arles]

Yeah, I'm not sure how many ER nurses can play the "this pandemic isn't real" card. I was more responding to the maternity nurses not getting one - you would think they would have seen some of this firsthand (esp in NY).

[henry296]

Originally Posted by Arles

Yeah, I'm not sure how many ER nurses can play the "this pandemic isn't real" card. I was more responding to the maternity nurses not getting one - you would think they would have seen some of this firsthand (esp in NY).

This hospital is near Syracuse so likely not the big spikes that happened so early in NYC.