Alright Boyz, Here We Go!!!! (OOTP 2007 release thoughts!!!)

[Ryan S]

Originally Posted by Marc Duffy

NASN has over 6 million subscribers across Europe. The UK is a small market - it's more we got a VERY good deal (and I mean a very good deal) it was a no brainer.

NASN viewers tend to be hard core fans (after all, they are paying $20-30 a month on top of other TV expenses to watch US sports) so they are exactly the kind of market that SI needs to go after in Europe.

[SirFozzie]

It'd be like offering commercials for FM2008/WWSM2008 on Setanta Sports here in the USA

[Ksyrup]

I have to say, after a couple of weeks with the game and now trying to get into actually playing the game as it is intended...I'm just not into it. I can't get into the flow of a game at all - either there's too much to do, and I'm finding myself ceding authority to the AI to manage the day-to-day stuff and keeping just roster moves for myself to manage, or I'm trying to take it all on and finding it way too tedious.

And I'm not really getting into the universe at all, not like when I just sim history and spend time sorting through it. I hate to say it, but it's the interface that's killing it for me, mostly. Having to click multiple times and scroll to get the information that the quick-sim screen provides is a big part of it. Markus apparently already nixed the idea of making that screen accessible other than for quick-simming, but I don't understand it at all. Taking us to the scores/schedule screen after the games have simmed is useless. Not only do I have to click a few times to get to what I want to look at, but it takes me out of the rhythm of the sim - if that quick-sim page would just stay up after the simming ends, I'd be able to quickly view standings and leaders, click on the teams/players I want to view from there, or just start simming again with the drop-down menu auto-sim feature. No need to go anywhere else but that page, unless I need to make changes to my team, which would be accessible directly from that screen.

And trying to make roster/FA moves is a pain in the ass - I'm constantly having to exit out of the screen I'm in and basically start over from the initial roster/FA screen because there's no easy way that I can see to get from the players I'm viewing back to the screen I started from. And then there are the screens where, for some reason, there is no ability to scroll through players, so I have to go to each one individually and click back out to get to the next one (minor leaguers on the transaction screen are this way). And when a player is injured, initially I thought it was pretty cool that the player pops up automatically, until I realized that there is no way to easily move from the player to the transaction screen without a few clicks. Am I missing something here? I'd rather have the transaction screen be the pop-up, so I can quickly make a roster move, and if I want to see a player or two, I have that option. But telling me the guy is injured for 4 weeks and then giving me his screen is redundant. I don't need to see him, I just need to put him on the DL and replace him. So why make me click a few more times to be able to make that happen?

It seems that I'm having to click on the manager home screen way too much to get back into what I was doing from another screen within the game. That screen has a lot of nice, useful links, but I shouldn't have to keep coming back to it time and time again. And I'm sorry, I just never could get into the FM/SI gameplay with the daily simming, and I think that's part of my issue as well. I just don't like it. For instance, I have to sit there and sim one day at a time to see if FA moves are made by other teams that I might want to respond to (dropped players, etc.). And the sign-and-release thing is killing me. I kept trying to sign a particular guy and would get no indication he signed with someone else, and then a day later, he'd show back up in the FA pool. And when I tried to sign him again, I could make an offer, but I'd get the "you've already made an offer to him, wait for his response" message. But he signed with someone else and got released, so I had to re-offer to him. And then again, no response, he'd get signed multiple times (but never by me), and it was lather, rinse, repeat ad nauseum. And I'd even get the "you've already made an offer" screen when making offers to players I haven't even attempted to sign! So the period between January 1 and spring training took forever to complete because I had to sim one day at a time, usually to see the guys I was trying to sign go elsewhere, get dropped, and then sign with yet another team, never once telling me they decided not to sign with me or why.

I want to like this game, but I think it's too massive for its own good and is buckling under its own weight. Between the different SION/HTML pages for the same information, and the interface/clicking issues described above, the in-game play is not nearly as fun as just setting up an historical sim and letting it go. But that's not really "playing."

[Buccaneer]

K, that's an excellent read. For fast-simmers like myself, playing a game of this genre demands a steady flow and rhythm without getting bogged down in unnecessary screens, excessive clicks and scrolls, information overload or tedious work. It's not about wanting a "simpler" game for a season can involve many steps or stages. That's why I was excited about adding in features like the expansion draft into my normal OOTP flow.

The User Interface can be a tricky thing, as we have discussed endlessly in the past 7 years. All UI, no matter how convoluted or weird, can become familiar in time. I recall the many complaints about the OOTP5 interface, as well as FM and FOF and Gothic. Now, some gamers that complained about the earlier interfaces want to go back, or vice versa. But beyond learning a new interface to where it becomes intuitive, is the process of what actually happens when a user makes his/her clicks. Do you dread opening up a screen for you know that it will not be fun to read or to work in? The flow and rhythm mentioned earlier assumes that we can get and process information quickly in order to make decisions. We can learn where the buttons and options are but does the information slow you down?

[MizzouRah]

Ksyrup,

I haven't started playing yet.. I'm only in 1912 and still having a ton of fun looking at players and whatnot... I hope to delve into the game sometime within a week or two and I'm definitly worried about what you are saying. OOTP 6.5 was so easy to get into a "flow" between simming and GM'ing.

[Ksyrup]

I'm finding that the interface is becoming familiar, and that's part of what is bringing me to the realization that I don't like it! For instance, I just learned to start using the right click when on a player's HTML page to quickly get to his SION page. That's great. But why are there 2 pages to begin with? It seems like the entire UI system was designed to fit both SP and MP, but in the end, all it did was create a mess. What they should have done is created one set of screens for the in-game playing experience, and allowed those screens to print out reports that look like the HTML pages. Instead, we get both in the game and it's frustrating to have to go to both to get the totality of information and ability to make decisions that is separate from each.

If I go to a stat or league/manager/team home screen and click on the player, I get his HTML page. What if I want to see his real life stats? Gotta go to his SION page. If I want to edit him or make roster changes - that's not part of the HTML screen, that's either the player's SION page or the SION transactions screen. Why have a separate SION standings screen, but make the easiest league standings pages to get to all HTML pages? Why are there two separate links to league history - one that take you to HTML history pages, and the other from the SION league drop-down menu that give you both HTML pages and SION HoF/retired/current player links? There are a bunch of duplicative, redundant screens in this game, and the only purpose for them that I can see is to accomodate MP leagues. And that's fine, but like I said above, those should just be reports, not integrated screens within the game itself.

And then there's the quick-sim page thing, which completely baffles me.

[Cork]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I'm finding that the interface is becoming familiar, and that's part of what is bringing me to the realization that I don't like it! For instance, I just learned to start using the right click when on a player's HTML page to quickly get to his SION page. That's great. But why are there 2 pages to begin with? It seems like the entire UI system was designed to fit both SP and MP, but in the end, all it did was create a mess. What they should have done is created one set of screens for the in-game playing experience, and allowed those screens to print out reports that look like the HTML pages. Instead, we get both in the game and it's frustrating to have to go to both to get the totality of information and ability to make decisions that is separate from each.

If I go to a stat or league/manager/team home screen and click on the player, I get his HTML page. What if I want to see his real life stats? Gotta go to his SION page. If I want to edit him or make roster changes - that's not part of the HTML screen, that's either the player's SION page or the SION transactions screen. Why have a separate SION standings screen, but make the easiest league standings pages to get to all HTML pages? Why are there two separate links to league history - one that take you to HTML history pages, and the other from the SION league drop-down menu that give you both HTML pages and SION HoF/retired/current player links? There are a bunch of duplicative, redundant screens in this game, and the only purpose for them that I can see is to accomodate MP leagues. And that's fine, but like I said above, those should just be reports, not integrated screens within the game itself.

And then there's the quick-sim page thing, which completely baffles me.

These things were discussed in depth during the beta testing and unfortunately Markus did not budge in many of the UI areas. It was frustrating at times, but since he is the driving force behind that game we were at his mercy. Ultimately the consumer will have the final say and if the series struggles, these types of issues will be the reason why.

-Cork

[Ksyrup]

Interesting. Well, then I'm glad I just cut and pasted these comments over there in response to a thread about fixing the UI. I don't think I'm alone in seeing the mess that was created by combining the SION and HTML pages, each with overlapping (redundant) information, yet each with its own set of unique (necessary) information.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I have to say, after a couple of weeks with the game and now trying to get into actually playing the game as it is intended...I'm just not into it. I can't get into the flow of a game at all - either there's too much to do, and I'm finding myself ceding authority to the AI to manage the day-to-day stuff and keeping just roster moves for myself to manage, or I'm trying to take it all on and finding it way too tedious.

And I'm not really getting into the universe at all, not like when I just sim history and spend time sorting through it. I hate to say it, but it's the interface that's killing it for me, mostly. Having to click multiple times and scroll to get the information that the quick-sim screen provides is a big part of it. Markus apparently already nixed the idea of making that screen accessible other than for quick-simming, but I don't understand it at all. Taking us to the scores/schedule screen after the games have simmed is useless. Not only do I have to click a few times to get to what I want to look at, but it takes me out of the rhythm of the sim - if that quick-sim page would just stay up after the simming ends, I'd be able to quickly view standings and leaders, click on the teams/players I want to view from there, or just start simming again with the drop-down menu auto-sim feature. No need to go anywhere else but that page, unless I need to make changes to my team, which would be accessible directly from that screen.

And trying to make roster/FA moves is a pain in the ass - I'm constantly having to exit out of the screen I'm in and basically start over from the initial roster/FA screen because there's no easy way that I can see to get from the players I'm viewing back to the screen I started from. And then there are the screens where, for some reason, there is no ability to scroll through players, so I have to go to each one individually and click back out to get to the next one (minor leaguers on the transaction screen are this way). And when a player is injured, initially I thought it was pretty cool that the player pops up automatically, until I realized that there is no way to easily move from the player to the transaction screen without a few clicks. Am I missing something here? I'd rather have the transaction screen be the pop-up, so I can quickly make a roster move, and if I want to see a player or two, I have that option. But telling me the guy is injured for 4 weeks and then giving me his screen is redundant. I don't need to see him, I just need to put him on the DL and replace him. So why make me click a few more times to be able to make that happen?

It seems that I'm having to click on the manager home screen way too much to get back into what I was doing from another screen within the game. That screen has a lot of nice, useful links, but I shouldn't have to keep coming back to it time and time again. And I'm sorry, I just never could get into the FM/SI gameplay with the daily simming, and I think that's part of my issue as well. I just don't like it. For instance, I have to sit there and sim one day at a time to see if FA moves are made by other teams that I might want to respond to (dropped players, etc.). And the sign-and-release thing is killing me. I kept trying to sign a particular guy and would get no indication he signed with someone else, and then a day later, he'd show back up in the FA pool. And when I tried to sign him again, I could make an offer, but I'd get the "you've already made an offer to him, wait for his response" message. But he signed with someone else and got released, so I had to re-offer to him. And then again, no response, he'd get signed multiple times (but never by me), and it was lather, rinse, repeat ad nauseum. And I'd even get the "you've already made an offer" screen when making offers to players I haven't even attempted to sign! So the period between January 1 and spring training took forever to complete because I had to sim one day at a time, usually to see the guys I was trying to sign go elsewhere, get dropped, and then sign with yet another team, never once telling me they decided not to sign with me or why.

I want to like this game, but I think it's too massive for its own good and is buckling under its own weight. Between the different SION/HTML pages for the same information, and the interface/clicking issues described above, the in-game play is not nearly as fun as just setting up an historical sim and letting it go. But that's not really "playing."

I tend to think the massiveness leads to bugs that are so embedded and hidden that it leads to minor frustrations that bubble into really big ones.

I'm happy with its ambitiousness more than most, probably. But I won't deny that it's almost like going into a big supermarket with all of this stuff and going "damn, where do I start?"

[Ksyrup]

That's part of my issue with the game as well - the FM/SI open-ended, daily sim massiveness of it all. I don't want to highlight that over at OOTP, though, because I think that would detract from my main points, which I think are an issue by themselves. But I'll admit to not being a fan of the FM/EHM interfaces. I don't like the "where do I even begin?" feeling of their games. At least with OOTP, I know enough about the game from before that that's not too much of a problem. But the daily simming, especially when, as a quick-simming interested in being GM, I have to sit there and babysit the FA pool to see if people are dropped (nevermind the sign-and-release bug/issue), is frustrating, tedious, and boring.

[dcg12]

[KWhit]

I find that the icons on at the bottom of the screen can get to where I need to go in just one click (from anywhere) about 90% of the time. I have no real problems with the interface right now.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

But the daily simming, especially when, as a quick-simming interested in being GM, I have to sit there and babysit the FA pool to see if people are dropped (nevermind the sign-and-release bug/issue), is frustrating, tedious, and boring.

How would you suggest this work in a sport that has games every day? Players can get injured any day during the season, and therefore rosters may need to be reshuffled on any day of the week. Obviously, a FA can appear at any time (especially if you have roster limits set at the minor leagues), because the AI may have to release someone to sign someone.

[Cork]

I actually like the interface and find that the bottom row of icons are a great addition to this years version. I think if more people learned to use them, many of the UI complaints would dissapear.

-Cork

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

That's part of my issue with the game as well - the FM/SI open-ended, daily sim massiveness of it all. I don't want to highlight that over at OOTP, though, because I think that would detract from my main points, which I think are an issue by themselves. But I'll admit to not being a fan of the FM/EHM interfaces. I don't like the "where do I even begin?" feeling of their games. At least with OOTP, I know enough about the game from before that that's not too much of a problem. But the daily simming, especially when, as a quick-simming interested in being GM, I have to sit there and babysit the FA pool to see if people are dropped (nevermind the sign-and-release bug/issue), is frustrating, tedious, and boring.

I've always been outspoken with the "SI" interface and how I feel the same, "where do I start" feeling. If you're a diehard fan of one of their games (FM, EHM, etc..) I can see where it gets to be second nature, but as a casual seasonal sport gamer, I like simplicity.

Who knows, once I start playing, I might love it.

[Ksyrup]

I responded to that post over at OOTP and I don't want to bring that discussion over here whole-cloth, so let me just say that I think I have a conceptual problem with the idea that the more options the UI gives us to get to information, the better. Especially with a game of this complexity, I believe fewer, better integrated options is the better way to go.

The bottom icons do not work well for me...one, I prefer drop-down menus, and two, for whatever reason, I can never remember that they are there, or what each is for unless I constantly hover over them to find out what they are for, which is a waste of time.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by KWhit

How would you suggest this work in a sport that has games every day? Players can get injured any day during the season, and therefore rosters may need to be reshuffled on any day of the week. Obviously, a FA can appear at any time (especially if you have roster limits set at the minor leagues), because the AI may have to release someone to sign someone.

Actually, I was referring to the period from January 1 to opening day. I'd rather see this done in stages, to avoid the tedium. Again, I just don't like the daily sim thing. During the season is not a problem - I expect for things to happen on a daily basis, and if I choose to sim weekly or monthly, then I'm foregoing those opportunities. But during the offseason, there's a better way to model it that may not be entirely realistic, but it works for purposes of gameplay.

[KWhit]

The icons at the bottom are super easy to learn and use.

Want to change lineups and depthchart? Change your rotation? One click away from anywhere in the game.

Want to call up a minor leaguer? Ditto.

Want to check the free agent market? Ditto.

Check your finances? Change your team settings? Check emails/news? Change the league setup? Find a specific player in any league? All of these are just one click away from anywhere in the game.

I don't think the interface is perfect. But I think it is a Hell of a lot better than the interface in v4, v5, or v6.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Actually, I was referring to the period from January 1 to opening day. I'd rather see this done in stages, to avoid the tedium. Again, I just don't like the daily sim thing. During the season is not a problem - I expect for things to happen on a daily basis, and if I choose to sim weekly or monthly, then I'm foregoing those opportunities. But during the offseason, there's a better way to model it that may not be entirely realistic, but it works for purposes of gameplay.

Ah. I see. can't really disagree with you there.

But dude. You gotta use the icons at the bottom of the screen. Just learn what they do and they will make your life SO much easier. They are pretty intuitive once you get that they're broken up into sections.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by KWhit

The icons at the bottom are super easy to learn and use.

Want to change lineups and depthchart? Change your rotation? One click away from anywhere in the game.

Want to call up a minor leaguer? Ditto.

Want to check the free agent market? Ditto.

Check your finances? Change your team settings? Check emails/news? Change the league setup? Find a specific player in any league? All of these are just one click away from anywhere in the game.

I don't think the interface is perfect. But I think it is a Hell of a lot better than the interface in v4, v5, or v6.

Completely agree. I'm enjoying the interface and the game. There are still some flaws, but I'm getting my money's worth out of it.

[Ksyrup]

That might make it somewhat easier, although I'll admit to being put off by the combined HTML/SION pages within the game. And also, with the way the arrow buttons don't seem to work most of the time, or atl east, they don't seem to work consistently. I find myself trying to use them quite often because I can't seem to figure out how to get where I need to go, so I just try to "back out" of where I am and ultimately end up at a dead end or taking far more clicks to get where I was than it should have taken. I still don't understand the best way to get from viewing a player's SION page (or multiple player pages if I'm using the arrows) back to the transaction or roster or FA screen I started from. To go back to the transaction screen, instead of just exiting the player screen, is counter-intuitive to me, even if it would take the same amount of time. So instead, I find myself instinctively trying to back out of pretty much every screen.

You know, the more I think about it, the more I think this has to do with being so used to/comfortable with windowed screens that it's preventing me from understanding the concept of how this UI is supposed to work. If I was already at the transaction screen, and now I'm in the player screens, I feel like I need to go back to that transaction screen instead of "opening it again" - at least that's what I feel like I'm doing. And that's the part I don't get/understand. But I think that might be part of my problem. Maybe I'm having a breakthrough here...although I don't know how that will translate to me being able to get used to this game.

The other thing is there's simply too many ways to get to the same stuff. That makes the game feel overwhelmingly complex and the screens cluttered with unnecessary buttons/links, etc., that I will never use. Because once I figure out "how" I want to do something, I'm not going to use any other way. So all of those additional "things" on the screen are of no use.

[dcg12]

I think you just hit on what I was trying to explain. i just wasn't doing a good job of it. You're exactly right when you think of opening the page again that is how I have found to get around.

I do agree that at some point they need to streamline some ways of getting around because I just discovered that if you go to "league history" from the links on the right of the league home page the tab for championship teams is not at the top like it is if you go there from the drop down menu.

If they could clean up some redundency (sp?) they would have it made.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by dcg12

II do agree that at some point they need to streamline some ways of getting around because I just discovered that if you go to "league history" from the links on the right of the league home page the tab for championship teams is not at the top like it is if you go there from the drop down menu.

Not just that...there is no list of HoF, retired, or retired & active players on the league home page "history" link, but there is on the drop-down history link. It's stuff like that that drives me crazy. It took me - no lie - 20 solid minutes of looking at every screen I could think of to try to find the list of retired players. I finally realized there were two separate history links, and that they gave different information. Really, I don't get that at all. Those links should point to the same page, so even if there's duplicity in the ways to get there (which is a problem in and of itself, IMO), they at least give you the same stuff (a bigger, more frustrating problem).

[dcg12]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Not just that...there is no list of HoF, retired, or retired & active players on the league home page "history" link, but there is on the drop-down history link. It's stuff like that that drives me crazy. It took me - no lie - 20 solid minutes of looking at every screen I could think of to try to find the list of retired players. I finally realized there were two separate history links, and that they gave different information. Really, I don't get that at all. Those links should point to the same page, so even if there's duplicity in the ways to get there (which is a problem in and of itself, IMO), they at least give you the same stuff (a bigger, more frustrating problem).

Agreed. I find this more frustrating than getting around the interface. The championship tab took me about 5 minutes of clicking around thinking the patch had screwed something up before I discovered that you get two different pages.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Actually, I was referring to the period from January 1 to opening day. I'd rather see this done in stages, to avoid the tedium. Again, I just don't like the daily sim thing. During the season is not a problem - I expect for things to happen on a daily basis, and if I choose to sim weekly or monthly, then I'm foregoing those opportunities. But during the offseason, there's a better way to model it that may not be entirely realistic, but it works for purposes of gameplay.

You can always use the play until option. I use this to find the stages I want to play until and sometimes I specify the date manually on that screen. The sim times are pretty quick so this works well for me. I'm not sure if this is what you're talking about though.

For example, I just set up a season in 1976 and autoplayed it then chose expansion draft on the play until screen and simmed to that date, took over a team and viola, done. It wasn't that tedious.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

The bottom icons do not work well for me...one, I prefer drop-down menus, and two, for whatever reason, I can never remember that they are there, or what each is for unless I constantly hover over them to find out what they are for, which is a waste of time.

The day of the drop down even if you just accidently moused over the buttons is over. Yay!

I'm a sloppy mouser and the hours of frustration when trying to get around these auto opening menu's was brutal for me. Almost anything would be better than that so it's not that I dislike drop down menus I just despised those drop down menus.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Not just that...there is no list of HoF, retired, or retired & active players on the league home page "history" link, but there is on the drop-down history link. It's stuff like that that drives me crazy. It took me - no lie - 20 solid minutes of looking at every screen I could think of to try to find the list of retired players. I finally realized there were two separate history links, and that they gave different information. Really, I don't get that at all. Those links should point to the same page, so even if there's duplicity in the ways to get there (which is a problem in and of itself, IMO), they at least give you the same stuff (a bigger, more frustrating problem).

Yep, that stumped me too. Finally found it more or less by accident.

[Ksyrup]

Man, comments like this one make reading the OOTP boards fun:

Originally Posted by Veracity

How can a game get such high reviews -- like a 5 out of 5 at Gamespot -- when it is missing an entire production element? I have played OOTP in the past and love the game. But now I'm thinking I should give Mogul another look. I don't know if I can pay $35 for a baseball game without MLB rosters or sound.

FWIW, the thread was about the game missing sound, so that was what his outrage was principally directed at.

I can't remember what thread it was in, but there was another one that started as a critique of the game and eventually morphed into a critique of baseball in general - how boring it was, etc. By the end of the post, I couldn't understand why the guy was even interested in the game in the first place. I did get a good laugh out of it, though.

[Young Drachma]

The OOTP boards are unplayable.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

That might make it somewhat easier, although I'll admit to being put off by the combined HTML/SION pages within the game. And also, with the way the arrow buttons don't seem to work most of the time, or atl east, they don't seem to work consistently. I find myself trying to use them quite often because I can't seem to figure out how to get where I need to go, so I just try to "back out" of where I am and ultimately end up at a dead end or taking far more clicks to get where I was than it should have taken. I still don't understand the best way to get from viewing a player's SION page (or multiple player pages if I'm using the arrows) back to the transaction or roster or FA screen I started from. To go back to the transaction screen, instead of just exiting the player screen, is counter-intuitive to me, even if it would take the same amount of time. So instead, I find myself instinctively trying to back out of pretty much every screen.

You know, the more I think about it, the more I think this has to do with being so used to/comfortable with windowed screens that it's preventing me from understanding the concept of how this UI is supposed to work. If I was already at the transaction screen, and now I'm in the player screens, I feel like I need to go back to that transaction screen instead of "opening it again" - at least that's what I feel like I'm doing. And that's the part I don't get/understand. But I think that might be part of my problem. Maybe I'm having a breakthrough here...although I don't know how that will translate to me being able to get used to this game.

The other thing is there's simply too many ways to get to the same stuff. That makes the game feel overwhelmingly complex and the screens cluttered with unnecessary buttons/links, etc., that I will never use. Because once I figure out "how" I want to do something, I'm not going to use any other way. So all of those additional "things" on the screen are of no use.

I've been reading your posts about the UI and have to agree with Kwhit's advice on the bottom buttons being a big help.

One other thing you posted is that you refuse to use the bookmarks. From reading your posts though, I can't tell if you know how it works in this version or not (If you do ignore my post ).

When you assign a bookmark it also gets a "F" button assigned so you get a keyboard shortcut. Default F1 = help. The first bookmark you make is assigned F2, the third F3, and so on. With this system you never have to go to the bookmark menu at the top of the screen, you only have to press your function keys. So, if you think about how you want your game organized you can arrange your function keys to fit your style of play. Of course I don't know your needs but you could do something like this

f1=help (default)
f2=manager screen
f3=standings
f4=league leaders
f5=transactions
etc..

You can create as many bookmarks as you like but the function keys only work from f2-f10 (f1 help cannot be changed).

Hope that is of some help.

[Buccaneer]

K, I think one of your points in regards to two screens for a player has always been there (at least back to v4). In understand how I play v5 so I can apply it to v2007, when I am in any of the non-html team screens and click on a player, I then have to click on 'HTML Report' to get a nice presentation of the player (which is preferred because it has everything I need in a readable format). I do, however, have issues with "in-game" browser" and would always prefer to use "external browser".

Sweed, that is good advice but I think if one uses or not use the F-keys, they will eventually get a good feel where everything is. My issue, however, is what those screens give you. I really don't know if this is part of the "UI" debate since it seems to be a mix of "where is that @%#$! button" vs "presentation".

[Buccaneer]

I think I have a conceptual problem with the idea that the more options the UI gives us to get to information, the better. Especially with a game of this complexity, I believe fewer, better integrated options is the better way to go.

The truest statement ever uttered on a gaming message board. Unfortunately, you and I are in the minority in our opinion on this.

[Ksyrup]

It seems so.

FWIW, I did play about 1.5 hours last night and did my best to use nothing but the bottom buttons with a few exceptions. It was definitely a better playing experience.

Bucc, since I know you were interested in the career I chose to start (afte a number of false starts), I decided to take on the Detroit Tigers starting in 1946. That was the year after they won the WS and then had a drought until 1968. I also chose that year because it side-steps the WWII issue. It would be nice if there was a way to mimic the loss of the players during WWII when doing a sim so that Ted Williams doesn't always end up beatin out Babe Ruth as the best player ever (at least in my sims). I like the "what if?" part of that, but in trying to do a faithful sim, the war issue is a tricky thing to deal with.

Anyway, I'll let you know how it progresses. I mainly let the computer do its thing the first year and we ended up at 8074 in 4th place, well off the lead. I made several trades in the offseason that I hope work out.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Man, comments like this one make reading the OOTP boards fun:



FWIW, the thread was about the game missing sound, so that was what his outrage was principally directed at.

I can't remember what thread it was in, but there was another one that started as a critique of the game and eventually morphed into a critique of baseball in general - how boring it was, etc. By the end of the post, I couldn't understand why the guy was even interested in the game in the first place. I did get a good laugh out of it, though.

Anyone who mentions Baseball Mogul on the ootp forums should be banned for life from ever owning any baseball game again.

[Arles]

I want to reiterate the bookmarks recommendation. As someone that enjoys FM and the new OOTP, I can't imagine playing either game without using the bookmark feature. Especially in OOTP, I find I normally hit 7-8 screens throughout the year and having them bookmarked (and hot-keyed) makes the interface almost a non-issue.

The only minor issue I have is that the game goes back to the top player during the "shop player" if you check out a player card. That can be a little tedious if there are 4-5 guys you want to check as you have to keep scrolling down after each one. Outside of that, the use of custom filters and bookmarks make the need to click very rare when navigating.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

The truest statement ever uttered on a gaming message board. Unfortunately, you and I are in the minority in our opinion on this.

Sounds kind of like my problem with overly complex website design.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Arles

I want to reiterate the bookmarks recommendation. As someone that enjoys FM and the new OOTP, I can't imagine playing either game without using the bookmark feature. Especially in OOTP, I find I normally hit 7-8 screens throughout the year and having them bookmarked (and hot-keyed) makes the interface almost a non-issue.

The only minor issue I have is that the game goes back to the top player during the "shop player" if you check out a player card. That can be a little tedious if there are 4-5 guys you want to check as you have to keep scrolling down after each one. Outside of that, the use of custom filters and bookmarks make the need to click very rare when navigating.

Bookmarks are a non-starter for me, but I am getting used to trying to learn the buttons at the bottom, which are getting me to most of what I need pretty quickly.

Aside from the issue you raise, I'm frustrated that on the transaction screen and the trade screen, when you click on a player, there are no arrow that allow you to click through the players on the team like there are on the regular roster screen and some of the other screens. It's strange that the arrows are only on player screens depending on how you access the player screens.

[spleen1015]

I haven't read everything about this, so excuse the question.

Ksyrup, why won't you use the bookmarks? Point me to where you've posted it if you like.

[spleen1015]

Dola, I found it.

I get what you say, but bookmarking hotkeys access to screens. Once you use it for a while, you'll forget about all of the other ways.

[Ksyrup]

I just refuse to add another layer of clutter to what I already feel is a way-too-cluttered interface. There are already up to 4 or 5 different ways to get to certain pages, so I don't want to add yet another.

I guess the best I can say about the interface is that it is consistent with Markus' goal of providing a highly (although not maximum) customizable game by giving us the opportunity to make of the game what we want. For purposes of the actual game, this is a plus. As applied to the UI, I find the multiple options hindering my enjoyment of the game.

Someone suggested the icons at the bottom will get me where I want to go 90% of the time, and I am finding that to be the case so far. If I'm satisfied with that, I'll use it. But I'll be damned if I'm going to go through the exercise of essentally creating another layer of UI on top of what's already there. I'm already spending a ton of time putting in logos and uniforms and such every time I fire up a new game; I want to keep the administrative stuff to a minimum.

[Arles]

I guess you could make the same claim about IE/mozilla. There multiple ways to get to FOFC:

1. type the URL
2. click on a link from another site you use more (ie, GDS )
3. Go to yahoo, search and then click the link

Still, I think adding a direct bookmark to the forum is by far the simplest way

All that said, I understand your frustration with navigating in certain areas. Making interfaces is difficult for developers as there are so many camps of users (ranging from people who only want hotkeys to people that just want to use menus). I think if you give bookmarks a chance that you'll find they are just as useful as they are for browsers and the 10-20 seconds to set each up will save you 100-times that amount as you play.

[Ksyrup]

The internet's a blank page; bookmarks help to narrowly define your web universe. A game, OTOH, is not an open canvas - or at least, the UI shouldn't treat it like it is. The game has a pre-defined set of pages/views we can look at, and it is the responsibility of the developer(s) to determine the most efficient way to allow access to all of the pages/views/information within the game.

And yes, I know that was a way too serious response to your post.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Bucc, since I know you were interested in the career I chose to start (afte a number of false starts), I decided to take on the Detroit Tigers starting in 1946. That was the year after they won the WS and then had a drought until 1968. I also chose that year because it side-steps the WWII issue. It would be nice if there was a way to mimic the loss of the players during WWII when doing a sim so that Ted Williams doesn't always end up beatin out Babe Ruth as the best player ever (at least in my sims). I like the "what if?" part of that, but in trying to do a faithful sim, the war issue is a tricky thing to deal with.

Anyway, I'll let you know how it progresses. I mainly let the computer do its thing the first year and we ended up at 8074 in 4th place, well off the lead. I made several trades in the offseason that I hope work out.

Of the 5 or 6 long careers I have played, two of them started in 1946 for the reasons you gave. I do, however, edit Ted Williams down to a 8/8/10 (from 8/10/10) so he won't win 13 MVPs in a row like he did the first time I played the Golden Age. He still is one of the best at the lowered ratings and most importantly, still commands a high salary.

One of the (key) things I am looking for is the FA market and financials. When I play v4, I have one house rule to not have the highest payroll in the league. If I see a top payroll team not active in FA and caused me to have a higher payroll, I have to shed salaries before the season starts. (This, by the way, was problematic when I started with the 1931 A's but it made me having to compete with the Yankees better.) Additionally, I also make sure all of the teams have plenty of cash on hand, which makes it nice since in the Golden Age, there are plently of good/great players to go around for the 16 teams.

Anyway, I would be curious to understand the financials that you set up and how they work as you move from season to season. I would be apt to mimic what we had in v5/6 since that offers a direct comparison. I've seen some posts about using real-life financials but I think that would create too much of a disadvantage for the AI teams. That's probably in line with my abhorance of using the recalc option.

The other thing I would be interested in seeing is how the Golden Age numbers compare to what I'm used to. In other words, does it become a pitcher's league by the mid-50s with about 10-15 dominant SP? Probably along the same line is how it handles the every-present "too many MR" issue. There are tons of highly rated MRs coming out Lahman for the Golden Age and I think it becomes irrelevant since 1) the AI teams use MRs more frequently and 2) every team has several good/great MRs since there are enough for everyone to have.

I've got to read more dynasties since my biggest gripe has been with the convoluted screens. I want to see how dynasty writers have been telling their story with such screens.

Good luck.

[Ksyrup]

I'm trying to play as close to reality as I can, so I'm not using free agency, other than free agents who are let go by their teams. I'm just relying on the rookies being placed on their original teams, FA acquisitions, and trades to build my team. I'm doing that for 2 reasons - one, I want it to mimic real life as much as possible, and two, I think it will help me get through seasons faster without FA (at least until the mid-70s, if I make it that far).

I haven't edited any players' stats, but I can see what you mean about Williams. He's been great every year so far (I'm about to start 1949). And that's a problem when he's on Boston and I'm playing Detroit!

So far, I've had 3 decent seasons but no playoffs yet. Injuries are killing me, and I've got them set to low. Three of my best players (Dick Wakefield, Newhouser, and Dizzy Trout) have been out for extended periods of time - Newhouser was out for 11 months in 1947, then came back to win the CY Award in 1948; I just lost Dizzy Trout for 12 months, and Wakefield has been out 3-6 months 3 separate times.

One thing this game desperately needs that I'm going to post over at the OOTP boards is the "freeze" option that FOF has for positions. I'm basically leaving the day-to-day lineup/rotation settings to the AI, but when I make a specific move with the intention of having a particular person play (say, I trade my old 3B and bring up a rookie to take his spot), the AI almost never "gets it" and puts someone else in at 3B, so I end up having to take over. But that means now, I'm responsible for setting everything, which I don't want. If I could just stick that rookie 3B in the lineup, hit a button to freeze him in the lineup, and then let the AI set everything around him like we can do for FOF, that would be ideal. As it stands, it's a pain in the butt to make this happen because, in my experience, the AI goes out of its way to play vets, even putting them at positions they aren't very good at when a younger, less experienced player would make more sense - and is what I want.

[BigPapi]

I am absolutely amazed at the inability of the AI to evaluate and manage the minor leagues in this game- and it has been a problem for several iterations of OOTP. And ironically, given all the interace issues, is ultimately why I put OOTP 2006 down and never picked it up again last year.

Let me give a few examples just to drive my point home. I only play with real players to start my universe- it helps me get immersed- but it aslo helps me follow quirky AI decisions because I recognize some of the game's better players by name. So, with an imported Cubbyfan Roster from last year as the background- check out some of the AI moves- and this is BEFORE the colossal mess that is the amateur draft begins:

Not even one week into the season- or before January 10th- listen to a who's who of prospects I can snag as a free agent after being released by the parent club:

Homer Bailey, Phillip Hughes, Matt Garza and Yovani Gallardo...I'll stop there for now. All these guys are Baseball Prospectus top 20 material- and all are appropriately rated in the roster set. In fact, the game succesfully recognizes these gentlemen as blue chip material as they are ALL on the top 100 prospects list as defined by the AI itself.....And yet- it releases them before play even begins for the 2007 season???? How is this possible- and how does this type of AI behavior go unnoticed during testing. This type of thing is not unique to this roster set- as once the league is turned over several times 40 or 50 years into the sim- I still see this sort of behavior.

First round draft picks are routinely being released in the September following their draft year- even with no roster limits set at ANY level- and after putting up great numbers at whatever level the AI places them. Is the AI so bad that it releases these guys over waiver wire fodder at every level? I simply cannot fathom how this is so hard to either diagnose and fix...I would blame it on my extensive feeder league system- but frankly, as I said- I saw this same behavior last year......anybody have any ideas how to remedy this- cause it's an absolute game killer for me.

[Ksyrup]

You know what's strange is that I've seen the same thing, but I am being effectively prevented from signing these guys because of what I believe to be part of the sign-and-release bug/issue I've seen. I started my career in 1946, and in that year (more than others) and each year after, there have been several very good prospects available as FAs. But, when I try to sign them, I am unable to. They take someone else's offer. Which is fine, except the next day or two later, they are back on the FA market, regardless of whether they signed a minor or major league contract. So I take another shot at them...same thing happens, but a different team signs them. Depending on the player, this may only happen a couple of times, or it may happen upward of 10-12 times. And not once have I been successful in getting them to accept my offer. I even tested this by offering a solid major league contract to a guy who only wanted a minor league contract, and he still took someone else's minor league contract.

I don't know if you've actually gone through the process of signing these guys who are available or you're just seeing them but purposely avoiding them, but so far in my universe, the only real issue this is causing me is the fact that some very good players are being dispersed around the league and somewhat altering history by coming up through the wrong team's system, and not the team they should be playing for.

[Icy]

bigPapi, first i would post that at the OOTP boards to call Markus' and beta team attention. I know both him and the beta team expended a lot of time testing and tweaking the code to fix the sign/release issue but of course it can be improved if more guys like you can offer more feedback about it. A new patch is being developed so any documented suggestion/feedback is welcome.

My only suggestion by now is to play with the AI evaluating options, maybe putting more % on the stats or more on the ratings and maybe you can find the right spot. This feature was in 6.5, then removed in 2006 and back in 2007 by popular request, and i find it really powerful to tell the AI how to behave.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Icy

My only suggestion by now is to play with the AI evaluating options, maybe putting more % on the stats or more on the ratings and maybe you can find the right spot. This feature was in 6.5, then removed in 2006 and back in 2007 by popular request, and i find it really powerful to tell the AI how to behave.

This is also an issue, unfortunately. It appears that the % stats/rating feature isn't really taking stats into account as much as it should be. A number of us have reported to them an issue where good pitchers are being demoted/released immediately following good-to-great seasons, simply because of a dip in ratings. Some of them are maybe 1-2 points in stuff, for example. And even where a guy's ratings drop off considerably, it would be rare for a team to completely give up on a guy coming off of a 20 win season, say, without at least throwing him out there next year, seeing bad results, and THEN dumping him. But here, they're getting dumped during the off-season, no other team is willing to even sign them (another problem that wouldn't occur IRL), and then they retire in a year or so. I had a guy who was 2-time defending Cy Young Award winner dumped into FA the following off-season, never got picked up by anyone, and then retired the next year.

[BigPapi]

Originally Posted by Icy

bigPapi, first i would post that at the OOTP boards to call Markus' and beta team attention. I know both him and the beta team expended a lot of time testing and tweaking the code to fix the sign/release issue but of course it can be improved if more guys like you can offer more feedback about it. A new patch is being developed so any documented suggestion/feedback is welcome.

My only suggestion by now is to play with the AI evaluating options, maybe putting more % on the stats or more on the ratings and maybe you can find the right spot. This feature was in 6.5, then removed in 2006 and back in 2007 by popular request, and i find it really powerful to tell the AI how to behave.

Icy,

Thanks for the tips- this item is TT'd- so I am sure Markus will look at it after his much needed break- I am just exasperated that it still exists 5 and 6 iterations into this game's life cycle....I really WANT to love this game- and I think it's a testament to Markus that this game is so apparently complex that these issues are not as easy to fix as they would seem- but they HAVE to be fixed- because to my way of seeing things- all the other goodies don't mean anything if the game can't make sound personnel decisions. Concerning the AI evaluation options- like Ksyrup- these seem broken to me- I have set it to 100% ratings- and 100% stats and all kinds of combos in between with no luck...You say they seem to be working for you?

Ksyrup-

You know- it's interesting- I am not even able to MAKE an offer to these guys- a lot of the time they are getting signed the same day by another team- and never show up on the waiver wire or free agents list. In fact, I am only able to diagnose that they were available at all from looking at the draft results report and going down the list of first round draft picks to see many were released in late September. I have noticed that there seems to be a correlation between first rounders being released and their initial talent level. It seems that the top 5 picks or so are able in many cases to get themselves promoted to AA or rarely even AAA in their first season after being drafted. Almost without exception these guys are being released for some reason- possibly roster restriction- or maybe they are in over their head- so the AI releases them instead of demoting them. Which brings up a question I have: No matter what I set the minor league player limit to- the AI will ONLY carry 25 guys- whether I set it to 50 or unlimited...Anybody have any idea why?- This might be part of my problem- but I don't know how to fix it- and the AI should still know better than to release it's best prospects no matter what the roster limit is.

[Young Drachma]

The game flies when you turn off facegen. I mean, it moved fast anyway. But it moves a ton faster when you just disable it. I only have it off until I start actually playing my dynasty rather than just getting a history. But I didn't realize how much faster it would go this way.