The Thread of the 2009-2010 NBA Season

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Mantle2600

In comparison the lakers are 18-3 against the east, Denver is 13-6

I don't think the Lakers' record is helping your argument.

[Chief Rum]

dola,

As of today, the East has a 124-162 record against the West, good for a .433 winning percentage.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Mantle2600

You could go with the whole best record in the nba by 2 games, or the best statistical defense, the best road record, the best home record...

Yeah, and I could have done most of that last year. They had the best record in the league, the top home record, tied for the 2nd best road record, had the 4th best defensive rating, the third best offensive rating, went 26-4 against the west. . . and um, where did that get them? (FYI, after 51 games last year, they were 40-11, look familiar?)

If you are an NBA fan and don't understand the vast difference from regular season basketball to playoff basketball, you need to go to NBA school.

Despite all of the great things Cleveland is doing, there are still some valid concerns about the team. Consider:

1) Despite playing at one of the slowest paces in the league, the Cavs still average a boatload of turnovers. They rank 25th in the league in turnover ratio. Defense gets tougher in the playoffs. Orlando and Boston, despite all of their struggles so far this year are terrific themselves at defense. (Boston, FWIW, has the same huge problem with turning the ball over too much.)

2) They are still unbelievably reliant upon Lebron. You may laugh at that and say "isn't that obvious", but in the playoffs you need not only a #2 guy, but a clear #3 and 4. The Nuggets have played 11 games without Melo this year. They are 7-4 against a brutally tough schedule with him not there. (that includes beating the Cavs by the way) If a team like Boston or Orlando essentially does what the Magic did last year and allow Bron to go off while controlling the rest of the guys, can the Cavs answer? Right now I don't think they can. Shaq isn't 22 anymore. He isn't going to be that second banana come playoff time. Moe Williams? Didn't work out so well last year, did it?

3) My eyes. I watched both games against the Lakers. The second was incredibly troubling to me. The Lake show shoots under 40%. Cleveland shoots 48%. Cleveland makes four more FT than the Lakers. They outrebound the Lakers. Yet with 24 seconds left in the game, Gasol steps up to the line with a chance to tie the game. Why? Because despite beating them in rebounding, the Lakers racked up 15 offensive boards and they also doubled up the Cavs in points off turnovers. I don't like how that bodes for Cleveland during the playoffs. You can say I'm pinning way too much based off of one game, but those were things I said about them all of last year.

4) This is the biggest: I don't like how they match up with Orlando at all. I know, Orlando just lost to the Wizards. Vince is sucking, chemistry sucks, etc. To me it says something that despite all of these issues, Orlando still is among the league leaders in every defensive category. They still rebound the ball. They still have size and length and depth that the Cavs don't have. They are in a much better position to absorb an off night from one of their key guys in the post season.

Look, long season left. Maybe the Cavs convince me, maybe they don't. Maybe they win the title because of how special and focused Bron is. I can't argue against any of that. But as I said above, I had these same concerns last year. Cleveland hasn't addressed any of them yet. As for those regular season numbers? Sorry, they don't have a lot of meaning to me. I knew Cleveland was an elite team before the season. What I'm trying to do is look into the future and see what kind of a playoff team they'll be. I'm still not convinced.

[RainMaker]

Bulls suspended Tyrus Thomas for at least one game. Apparently he was upset about minutes (and probably rightfully so) after last night's game. Most likely the end of his days in Chicago.

The Bulls are now the Eastern Conference Los Angeles Clippers.

[Shkspr]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The Bulls are now the Eastern Conference Los Angeles Clippers.

The Washington Wizards laugh at Chicago's dysfunction.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Shkspr

The Washington Wizards laugh at Chicago's dysfunction.

I don't know. I can put up a good argument on the Bulls.

- Could have gotten Dwayne Wade by swapping draft picks but did not want to give up Antonio Davis.

- Tyrus Thomas over LaMarcus Aldrige and Brandon Roye. Then didn't develop Tyrus and give him any consistent playing time. Instead of trading him years ago when he had some value, they let it get to this where he has no value.

- Basically let Ben Gordon go for nothing.

- Turned down trades for KG and Pau Gasol because they didn't want to include Deng. Told Lakers no on any trade that included Deng for Kobe. Signed Deng to really bad contract.

- Ben Wallace signing.

- Hired a coach who had never coached a game of basketball in his life (not even as an Assistant) after not wanting to give Doug Collins or Mike D'Antoni solid money. This is also the most profitable team in the NBA.

I could go on and on over the years and the bad moves the Bulls have made. The funny thing is that we're just below average only because we completely lucked out and won the lottery. Without that 1% chance happening, imagine how bad the Bulls would be right now.

[Mantle2600]

Originally Posted by TroyF

1) Despite playing at one of the slowest paces in the league, the Cavs still average a boatload of turnovers. They rank 25th in the league in turnover ratio. Defense gets tougher in the playoffs. Orlando and Boston, despite all of their struggles so far this year are terrific themselves at defense. (Boston, FWIW, has the same huge problem with turning the ball over too much.)

This is true they do turn the ball over way too much

Originally Posted by TroyF

2) They are still unbelievably reliant upon Lebron. You may laugh at that and say "isn't that obvious", but in the playoffs you need not only a #2 guy, but a clear #3 and 4. The Nuggets have played 11 games without Melo this year. They are 7-4 against a brutally tough schedule with him not there. (that includes beating the Cavs by the way) If a team like Boston or Orlando essentially does what the Magic did last year and allow Bron to go off while controlling the rest of the guys, can the Cavs answer? Right now I don't think they can. Shaq isn't 22 anymore. He isn't going to be that second banana come playoff time. Moe Williams? Didn't work out so well last year, did it?

1, they beat the cavs without Melo but it was by only 2 points, and we have had trouble in Denver fo a while now. 2, just because Mo Williams had a bad post season last year does not mean he will have a bad one this year. And 3, since both Mo Williams and Delonte West have been out for our 11 game winning streak Shaq has been our 2nd banana and hes been getting about 17 points per game in about 30 minutes of action. He has been playing about 25 min a game so he should be just fine barring injury.

Originally Posted by TroyF

4) This is the biggest: I don't like how they match up with Orlando at all. I know, Orlando just lost to the Wizards. Vince is sucking, chemistry sucks, etc. To me it says something that despite all of these issues, Orlando still is among the league leaders in every defensive category. They still rebound the ball. They still have size and length and depth that the Cavs don't have. They are in a much better position to absorb an off night from one of their key guys in the post season.

They match up against Orlando WAY better than they did last year. Last year we had a 6 foot 3 SG guarding Turkey-glue, with him gone replaced by Carter the matchup problem is gone. Howard is not nearly as dominant against Shaq as he is against Z or AV just look at the game we've already played against them. Nelson & mo are both good scorers who are not great at defense so thats a crap shoot, LBJ is better than anyone they put against him. Orlando also shot about 45 percent from 3 in that series alst year so that really hurt us, what are the odds that happens again, because despite what you think, just cause it happened last year does'nt mean it will this year.

I'm not saying they're the greatest team ever, but they are the best team in the league right now, have been for weeks, and come playoff time who knows, we made it to the finals in 07 with a MUCH MUCH worse team than this.

[Shkspr]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I don't know. I can put up a good argument on the Bulls.

Two words: Michael Jordan.

The Bulls had him, and he turned the Bulls into a winner. The Wizards had him, and he turned them into Kwame Brown's team.

"Clippers of the East" is a lofty title, one that requires literally decades of bad karma and mismanagement. You don't get to usurp a title like that with a couple of years of roster decisions that didn't work out well. Banners hang forever, and being able to remember Michael Jordan in his prime renders the Bulls inert in this conversation for about the next forty years.

Now, in Washington, you're talking about a legacy. Where the Clips had Elgin Baylor, the Bullets had Wes Unseld, who kept his jobs for decades without never quite knowing what the hell he was doing. Where the Clips had a tradition of big hopes dashed by wrecked knees, Washington can throw the ashes of Mark Price's All-Star career, the promise of seeing Bernard King round back into All-Star form just to see his kneecap fall off, and two years and fifteen games from Gilbert Arenas after he signed his $111 million contract. Wait, scratch that; the Wizards were dumb enough to sign him to that contract after he missed 67 games the previous season. So it was only one year and eighty games he missed after signing the extension. That's muuuch better.

This season alone goes into the history books. Call me when the Bulls can match the ineptitude of having an owner change the franchise's entire identity with the stated goal of reducing the tie to gun violence, only to have one sixth of the roster suspended for the longest stretch in NBA history, mere weeks after the owner dies, for issues relating to gun violence. This includes, of course, the aforementioned $111 million player, who probably will NOT have his contract canceled, who will NOT be able to be bumped to add a roster player, and who is, in fact, the one player most likely to be on next year's team.

Respectability for the Wizards meant first round playoff exits and a reputation as the team LeBron James most likes to pee upon. The Wizards don't even have that to look forward to anytime soon.

This is the team with the legacy of alley oops from Muggsy Bogues to Manute Bol. This is the team who passed up Hot Rod Williams to draft Hot Plate Williams. This is the team that employed Gheorghe Muresan, the only man on the face of the planet to be outacted by Billy Crystal in a major motion picture. This is a team whose dysfunction and ineptitude this season has pushed the Dan Snyder saga off the front pages in a pro football town.

I'd have listened marginally to a Nets fan whining about their team. The Isiah Thomas era Knicks had some problems, sure. But the Bulls? Just give me a break. Your karma books were balanced forever the day Portland picked Bowie.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Shkspr

Two words: Michael Jordan.

The Bulls had him, and he turned the Bulls into a winner. The Wizards had him, and he turned them into Kwame Brown's team.

"Clippers of the East" is a lofty title, one that requires literally decades of bad karma and mismanagement. You don't get to usurp a title like that with a couple of years of roster decisions that didn't work out well. Banners hang forever, and being able to remember Michael Jordan in his prime renders the Bulls inert in this conversation for about the next forty years.

Now, in Washington, you're talking about a legacy. Where the Clips had Elgin Baylor, the Bullets had Wes Unseld, who kept his jobs for decades without never quite knowing what the hell he was doing. Where the Clips had a tradition of big hopes dashed by wrecked knees, Washington can throw the ashes of Mark Price's All-Star career, the promise of seeing Bernard King round back into All-Star form just to see his kneecap fall off, and two years and fifteen games from Gilbert Arenas after he signed his $111 million contract. Wait, scratch that; the Wizards were dumb enough to sign him to that contract after he missed 67 games the previous season. So it was only one year and eighty games he missed after signing the extension. That's muuuch better.

This season alone goes into the history books. Call me when the Bulls can match the ineptitude of having an owner change the franchise's entire identity with the stated goal of reducing the tie to gun violence, only to have one sixth of the roster suspended for the longest stretch in NBA history, mere weeks after the owner dies, for issues relating to gun violence. This includes, of course, the aforementioned $111 million player, who probably will NOT have his contract canceled, who will NOT be able to be bumped to add a roster player, and who is, in fact, the one player most likely to be on next year's team.

Respectability for the Wizards meant first round playoff exits and a reputation as the team LeBron James most likes to pee upon. The Wizards don't even have that to look forward to anytime soon.

This is the team with the legacy of alley oops from Muggsy Bogues to Manute Bol. This is the team who passed up Hot Rod Williams to draft Hot Plate Williams. This is the team that employed Gheorghe Muresan, the only man on the face of the planet to be outacted by Billy Crystal in a major motion picture. This is a team whose dysfunction and ineptitude this season has pushed the Dan Snyder saga off the front pages in a pro football town.

I'd have listened marginally to a Nets fan whining about their team. The Isiah Thomas era Knicks had some problems, sure. But the Bulls? Just give me a break. Your karma books were balanced forever the day Portland picked Bowie.

That was gold, truly befitting your screen name. Brilliant from note one to that excellent last line. Bravo, I say. Bravo.

I've gotta guess that you're a Bulle- Wizards fan from that rant as it sounded like a response to a personal insult.

SI

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Shkspr

Two words: Michael Jordan.

The Bulls had him, and he turned the Bulls into a winner. The Wizards had him, and he turned them into Kwame Brown's team.

"Clippers of the East" is a lofty title, one that requires literally decades of bad karma and mismanagement. You don't get to usurp a title like that with a couple of years of roster decisions that didn't work out well. Banners hang forever, and being able to remember Michael Jordan in his prime renders the Bulls inert in this conversation for about the next forty years.

Now, in Washington, you're talking about a legacy. Where the Clips had Elgin Baylor, the Bullets had Wes Unseld, who kept his jobs for decades without never quite knowing what the hell he was doing. Where the Clips had a tradition of big hopes dashed by wrecked knees, Washington can throw the ashes of Mark Price's All-Star career, the promise of seeing Bernard King round back into All-Star form just to see his kneecap fall off, and two years and fifteen games from Gilbert Arenas after he signed his $111 million contract. Wait, scratch that; the Wizards were dumb enough to sign him to that contract after he missed 67 games the previous season. So it was only one year and eighty games he missed after signing the extension. That's muuuch better.

This season alone goes into the history books. Call me when the Bulls can match the ineptitude of having an owner change the franchise's entire identity with the stated goal of reducing the tie to gun violence, only to have one sixth of the roster suspended for the longest stretch in NBA history, mere weeks after the owner dies, for issues relating to gun violence. This includes, of course, the aforementioned $111 million player, who probably will NOT have his contract canceled, who will NOT be able to be bumped to add a roster player, and who is, in fact, the one player most likely to be on next year's team.

Respectability for the Wizards meant first round playoff exits and a reputation as the team LeBron James most likes to pee upon. The Wizards don't even have that to look forward to anytime soon.

This is the team with the legacy of alley oops from Muggsy Bogues to Manute Bol. This is the team who passed up Hot Rod Williams to draft Hot Plate Williams. This is the team that employed Gheorghe Muresan, the only man on the face of the planet to be outacted by Billy Crystal in a major motion picture. This is a team whose dysfunction and ineptitude this season has pushed the Dan Snyder saga off the front pages in a pro football town.

I'd have listened marginally to a Nets fan whining about their team. The Isiah Thomas era Knicks had some problems, sure. But the Bulls? Just give me a break. Your karma books were balanced forever the day Portland picked Bowie.

Jordan probably negates me from ever complaining for the rest of my life. But I'm not talking a history of losing, I'm talking about inept management. An owner that doesn't care about the fans and a management in place that is beyond pathetic. Would you trade the people in power with the Wizards with what the Bulls have right now?

Here is one thing you guys can't top. The Chicago Bulls ran the greatest basketball player of all time out of town and broke up a dynasty up over a few million dollars.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

It doesn't really make much sense. Didn't Isiah cost the Knicks millions in that lawsuit? Stirling doesn't like losing money. I would have to think hiring a guy who in his last job cost his franchise millions in collateral costs would be the last thing Stirling would want to do.

And that's beside the fact that he proved in his time in NY that he is both a worse GM than Dunleavy and a worse coach.

Yeah it would be shocking. The Clippers finally have some things going their way I hope something like this doesnt happen to screw it up. The franchise would then remind me of a degenerate gambler. Even when things go well you still find ways to lose.

[Big Fo]

Rashard Lewis ices it, another win in Boston for Orlando. They've turned it around of late winning eight of ten and even Vince Carter has shown signs of life. If healthy I still like Orlando's chances against any team in the East come playoff time.

[TroyF]

Mantle:

1) Shaq is 37 years old. He's been sent to the foul line 10 or more times exactly 4 times this year. If he gets significant minutes and touches in the playoffs, he'll go to the line 10 or more times 4 times in the first 4 games. He cannot be your second option anymore. He's also little more than a decoy for most of the fourth quarter. (if he touches it, he'll get hammered, you want Bron doing his damage or Shaq going to the line? I'll take Shaq thank you)

2) I understand Moe Williams may not have the same poor series again. But this is the guy you are hanging your hat on to be the real number 2 option. He sucked when it counted last year. It's going to be up to him to prove he's up to the mustard this year.

3) I love how you keep using regular season games to prove your point. Cleveland didn't have Lewis for meeting number 1. They'll have him for the post season. Orlando was on the second night of a back to back, and third game in four nights. Cleveland had 5 days rest.

4) Hedo? What made you think Hedo was a problem for you last year? In the four Magic wins, Hedo shot 28%. The Cavs lost because they had no answer for Howard and because Orlando had multiple weapons that could hurt them at anytime. I still don't see Cleveland having that. If their second or third option shoots 28% for four games, they are screwed. Orlando can withstand that, I don't think Cleveland can.

[whomario]

It is true however (at least from my experience), that Howard tends to struggle when he can´t go through and over people and faces someone big, strong and smart enough to force him to find ways to go around them (one of the reasons why Yao flatout owns him head to head, against Shaq he´s been decent but never dominated as far as i can remember)
So having Shaq actually could be a game changer, even Ilgauskas had some success against Howard although not as much as the other 2 mentined.

And Shaq has looked pretty good in recent weeks. Dunno, i still think he´s going to be a factor.

Does that mean the Cavs are looking at a cakewalk to reach the finals or even win it all ? Hell no. But it´s not like other teams don´t have issues, is it ? Celtics are struggling badly and looking slow, the Magic have looked disfunctional for long stretches, the Lakers are in dire need of finding a balance offensively (their offense has been very pedestrian) with Bryant going back 3 years in some games, Gasol and Bynum struggling to co-exist in most games and their bench outside of Odom being non-existant in many games.
Their defense is keeping them on top so far, but come playoff time they are going to need to execute offensively as well.
The Hawks ... Well, i´m really not ready to declare them contenders just yet.
Out West the Mavs are all Dirk and little else and reverted back to their old selfs defensively at times, the Jazz need to show that January wasn´t a fluke.

Nuggets are actually the only team looking good for most of the year considering expectations (especially considering their injuries)

This is a year where there really isn´t a lot of consistency for top teams, the title race is wide open as far as i am concerned. And in the east i really see the Cavs on top of the teams having a shot.

[TroyF]

whomario,

I'm not saying the Cavs don't have a shot, I am saying I don't think they are the favorites. I still think Orlando is the favorites, even if nobody else agrees with me. (announcers in yesterdays game said that the Celtics and Cavs were better than the Magic and the Cavs were better than the Celtics, that seems to be most peoples take on the issue. I think it's Orlando, Cavs, Celtics, Hawks.

As for Shaq, I'll believe it when I see it. The only two + players for Cleveland right now is Lebron and Varejo. It's a testament to how above everyone else Bron is in the league when you look at his teammates. Look at the other contenders, all of them have 3 or 4 or 5 guys with solid +/- numbers. I don't think those numbers are the end all of existence, but I do think it shows Cleveland doesn't have a true second option at this point. When it's all said and done, Atlanta, Boston and Orlando are going to make SOMEONE else from Cleveland step up.

Again, it's a testament to how special Bron is that Cleveland is even being talked about as a contender with that garbage cast he has around him. (and yes, I include the out of shape fat guy playing center who WILL lay an egg this playoffs) If I thought Bron would just be great and not all planet, I'd have full confidence in picking against Cleveland this postseason. As it stands, he gives them more than a punchers chance and they might just do it. . . I still think Orlando and the Lakers are better teams. Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[Mantle2600]

Originally Posted by TroyF

3) I love how you keep using regular season games to prove your point. Cleveland didn't have Lewis for meeting number 1. They'll have him for the post season. Orlando was on the second night of a back to back, and third game in four nights. Cleveland had 5 days rest.

Well I can't use playoff games to measure can I? Last year is a moot point, we have a new starting PF, SG and C, we have a better backup SG, SF and C than last year.

So sorry if you can't see that. If you think they're a better team that's cool, it's your opinion, I'd say your wrong but that's just my opinion.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Mantle2600

Well I can't use playoff games to measure can I? Last year is a moot point, we have a new starting PF, SG and C, we have a better backup SG, SF and C than last year.

So sorry if you can't see that. If you think they're a better team that's cool, it's your opinion, I'd say your wrong but that's just my opinion.

New C - Shaq vs. Z, upgrade. Especially because you did not lose Z.

New PF - Hickson vs. Varejao. Say what you want, Hickson is horrible. He has the 3rd worst +\- on the team. He cannot hit a jump shot to save his life. The team is worse in every aspect of basketball when he is on the floor. The less he plays and the more Varejao plays when it counts, the better off the Cavs will be. I think Hickson is the Cavs version of Dhantay Jones. The Nuggets were so much better with Dhantay on the bench last year, but Karl loved the guy and played him 16-20 minutes a game. You just have to hope Hickson does not screw things up for the better player.

SG - Parker vs. Delonte - I like Parker a lot. Actually wanted the Nuggets to go after him before Afflalo became available. My concern is that with him in the turnovers go up. Not necessarily by him, but because of the fact he is such a poor passer it forces the ball movement to come from other players. when that starting lineup is on the floor, you have two guys capable of creating a shot for someone else and three guys you do not want handling the ball.

One thing I know for sure. . . the East playoffs are going to be fun as hell to watch from the semi finals on. Any combination of Cleveland, Boston, Orlando and Atlanta will be fun to watch. It would not stun me to see the Cavs come out on top. How could it? They have the best player on the planet. just like last year though, I think many people are underrating their competition and making way too many assumptions based off of the regular season. The playoffs are a different world and I believe the playoffs are where the Cavs warts will show the most.

[sterlingice]

Did I just see across the bottom line that Vince Carter went for 48 tonight?

SI

[Groundhog]

I'm fairly sure that's the combined point total of his last 10 games.

[stevew]

It is actually my fault the Cavs lost last year. I had a PM typed out to groundhog and uy said something like "when the Cavs win this thing, do you want me to send you a copy of the Plain dealer?". I didn't send it because I realized that it was a really bad idea. Of course the demage was done already by just having the thoughts.

So, groundhog, do you want a copy of the plain dealer the day after Lebron spurns the Cavs and signs elsewhere?

[Big Fo]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Did I just see across the bottom line that Vince Carter went for 48 tonight?

SI

He was great tonight, a lot of it came from jumpers but he took it to the basket a number of times as well, I think he had at least three layups that he got fouled on and converted the FT for a three point play. Four straight games with 17 or more points, maybe he's out of that January slump for good.

Peja Stojakovic was another guy playing like he did back in the day, scoring 29, hitting 5 three pointers, and even throwing in 9 boards and 5 assists.

Howard continues to get better at scoring in different ways. The running hook has been going down lately and he busted out the Tim Duncan-like bank shot a few times tonight. And in the last four games he's even hit 66% of his free throws, it's terrible that a stat like that can make me happy but with the number of times he gets fouled going from abysmal free throw shooting to below average is a big deal.

The Lakers have been impressive tonight, beating San Antonio easily without Kobe and Bynum.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by stevew

It is actually my fault the Cavs lost last year. I had a PM typed out to groundhog and uy said something like "when the Cavs win this thing, do you want me to send you a copy of the Plain dealer?". I didn't send it because I realized that it was a really bad idea. Of course the demage was done already by just having the thoughts.

So, groundhog, do you want a copy of the plain dealer the day after Lebron spurns the Cavs and signs elsewhere?

[Groundhog]

How about that Darren Collison? He's playing better in the NBA than he did in the NCAAs. I guess teams are going to start game-planning him now, so will be interesting to see how he holds up against increased D.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

How about that Darren Collison? He's playing better in the NBA than he did in the NCAAs. I guess teams are going to start game-planning him now, so will be interesting to see how he holds up against increased D.

This is actually not much of a surprise. Most of Howland's pros at UCLA have gone on to be better than they were in college, or at least as good as expected.

Depending on your perspective, either Howland's system is very limiting or he runs a very effective prep school for the NBA. My guess is it's a little of both.

[k0ruptr]

Tyreke Evans just put on one hell of a 4th quarter show in the Garden. leading the Kings to an OT comeback win down by 15 with 8 to go. wow.

[Sublime 2]

Sure hope the Celts can land Augustin for Glen Davis. If they can get something for Davis, I'd be super excited...if it's Augustin I'd be 50x more excited!

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Sublime 2

Sure hope the Celts can land Augustin for Glen Davis. If they can get something for Davis, I'd be super excited...if it's Augustin I'd be 50x more excited!

disagree.

backup PG isn't enough for Davis. Davis can play...issues aside.

Shelden Williams apparently can't, and Sheed has been blah so far this year.

[Chief Rum]

If you took 12 of the worst active players in the NBA and:

1. gave them a book on losing
2. and six months to study it
3. and played them against the best team in NBA history
4. on the road
5. and told them to lose intentionally
6. or they would have to pay out a max contract each to their team

...they still wouldn't lose with as much efficiency as the Clippers did tonight.

[Sublime 2]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

disagree.

backup PG isn't enough for Davis. Davis can play...issues aside.

Shelden Williams apparently can't, and Sheed has been blah so far this year.

Its probably just my utter disdain for Davis.

I do think a ball-handling backup point will go a long way in helping out the 2nd unit though. In reality Davis was our 4th big, and I actually liked what Shelden gave us there earlier in the year.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Sublime 2

Its probably just my utter disdain for Davis.

I do think a ball-handling backup point will go a long way in helping out the 2nd unit though. In reality Davis was our 4th big, and I actually liked what Shelden gave us there earlier in the year.

Davis came up big down the stretch last year though - don't forget that. He can be a productive player.

And you have Marquise Daniels to be the primary ball-handler on your 2nd unit.

I liked Shelden earlier this year too - not sure why Doc has him sitting on the bench.

But look...KG is feelin the hurt in his knees. Why would you trade away a big who has decent range on his jumper and is a wide-body for a backup-PG...it's just a weird move. Unless Bill Walker is ready to play and you think he has a higher ceiling than Davis and want to get him playing time.

[DaddyTorgo]

i don't pretend to be an NBA expert, but this seems like a pretty good take on it...

Does it make sense?: Our gut says this one doesn't make sense for Boston. Do the Celtics need a backup point guard? Yes. But the team also just went 28 games without Marquis Daniels, who should resume primary ball-handling responsibilities off the bench as his surgically-repaired left thumb heals. If the team was desperate for a backup ball-handler, it would seem they would have pursued this sort of swap sooner. What's more, Boston seemingly needs Davis' depth in the frontcourt given that Williams has been dropped from the rotation (nine straight DNPs) and Rasheed Wallace continues to be ineffective. Losing Davis would elevate Brian Scalabrine to primary backup at the four spot.

Final thoughts: Despite some frustrating actions this season (off-court fight before season started; obscene comment to fan in Detroit), Davis appears to be coming on strong lately. He's getting more comfortable as his right thumb heals and he's added great energy off the bench (more than once recently he's hauled in multiple offensive rebounds on a possession). Davis talked at length Monday about his desire to increase his role and return to the type of indispensable presence he was when Kevin Garnett was injured in last year's postseason (more on that Wednesday). We just don't see this as a move that improves the Celtics moving forward. They can find more economical ways to fill the void at backup point guard if forced to look outside their locker room.

[Cuckoo]

Thunder with a big win tonight at Portland. Minus Brandon Roy admittedly, but still an important game before the break. I'm REALLY trying hard not to get too excited but it's so damn hard to do:

1. Thunder Turn To Bench In Win Against Blazers
By John Hollinger
ESPN.com
PORTLAND -- Forget about their youth, their inexperience, and the difficulty of the Western Conference. Forget all that, and just know this: The Thunder are going to the playoffs. Tuesday's 89-77 win over the Blazers showed a good example why, as Oklahoma City demonstrated how its defense and newfound depth could carry it on a night when the starters couldn't deliver.

The Thunder wrested a tough road win from Portland by going on a 15-2 run in the first six minutes of the fourth quarter with just one starter on the floor. Instead of the Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook show, it was the likes of Serge Ibaka, James Harden and Eric Maynor who turned this one around for the Okies.

More on them in a minute. In the meantime, take note of today's standings. The Thunder are 30-21, good for sixth in the conference and a full three games ahead of No. 9 Houston in the Western playoff race. They're closer to third than they are to ninth, and looking ahead they have one of the league's most favorable remaining schedules. Barring injury, they're going to make it, and they might even be hosting a first-round playoff series.

[TroyF]

Cuckoo,

Go ahead and get excited. They are the real deal and will only get better. I don't think the are a championship team yet, but if you were to give me a list of the top 10 teams in the west and ask which I'd like Denver to avoid, it'd go something like this:

1) Lakers
2) Thunder
3-10) I don't care.

[TroyF]

Both Texas teams checked out last night. You'll find it tough to be any less efficient on offense than either Houston or Dallas were last night. (teams that played I mean, I know SA is in Texas as well and I hope they check out Thursday night in Denver)

Don't forget when you are watching the rookies play on Friday night that the best PG of the bunch is sitting home in Denver. (I still think Evans is a 2)

Cavs are rumored to be in the mix for Troy Murphy. I think he'd help them out in a big, big way.

Rumors in Denver are the Nuggets are interested in bringing Camby back. I'd only like it if he understood his role. (DO NOT TAKE 20 FOOT UGLY ASS JUMP SHOTS YOU IDIOT) Players in the Denver lockeroom had a nickname for Camby "touches" based on how many possessions he forced his own shot. That says something when a team full of chuckers thinks that way. Denver also interested in Haywood and Murphy. (no chance in hell they get him)

The "L"east is back in full force this year. Outside of the top four, no eastern conference team would even sniff the playoffs if they were in the west. While I'm looking forward to the Eastern conference playoffs, it all starts with the second round. They may as well give the top four bye's.

[Cuckoo]

See, other than being incredibly superstitious and therefore frightened of that all-powerful jinx, my problem is that I've been away from the NBA for a long time. Not until the Hornets were here did I start watching again, and only then casually. I picked it up with the Thunder, of course, and am now watching all of their games. But I feel like I can never tell whether my eyes are deceiving me because I don't trust my NBA judgment.

[Radii]

David Stern is on Bill Simmons podcast today:

ESPN Radio

or itunes, etc.

[TroyF]

Trust it in this case. You are golden.

I really only see a couple of potential problems (some were discussed above in this thread)

1) How do they get better shooters to take the pressure off of Durant while staying strong defensively?

2) They need an upgrade with all of their bigs.

3) Durant still has that string bean body type. He's going to start getting a beating nightly. Can he hold up long term?

FWIW, I think 3 will answer itself without problem. He'll get stronger and handle all of that without trouble. How quickly they address 1 and 2 will be the defining factor on how quickly they win a championship. I'd be stunned if that team doesn't get at least one title in the next 5 years.

[Cuckoo]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Trust it in this case. You are golden.

I really only see a couple of potential problems (some were discussed above in this thread)

1) How do they get better shooters to take the pressure off of Durant while staying strong defensively?

2) They need an upgrade with all of their bigs.

3) Durant still has that string bean body type. He's going to start getting a beating nightly. Can he hold up long term?

FWIW, I think 3 will answer itself without problem. He'll get stronger and handle all of that without trouble. How quickly they address 1 and 2 will be the defining factor on how quickly they win a championship. I'd be stunned if that team doesn't get at least one title in the next 5 years.

Agreed with all points, though like you I'm not as concerned about number 3. It hasn't shown to be much of a problem so far; I worry more about his recklessness with the basketball from time to time. As for 1, I think Harden has the potential to develop into someone that will really help there. Westbrook has become quite a slasher, but he's inconsistent. And inconsistent definitely describes Jeff Green's offense.

On 2, I like things about all of their bigs actually, but they all seem like complementary guys and they could really use a force there. Of course, let's say they get an impact guy at the 4. That pushes Green to the bench. Not a bad thing, but it affects the chemistry, one of the team's greatest strengths. My contention is that OKC has to commit to keeping those other two together (Green and Westbrook) if they have a chance at keeping Durant long term. It's really a tight-knit group.

[whomario]

4) When does Durant become an adequate passer ? Getting better shooters is part of it, but like we discussed earlier you can´t win with your best player being as a poor passer as he is right now.

as for No2) Ibaka will be a force before long. The guy played just 1 year in the ACB (spanish top division) , before 1 year 2nd division, where he only played 16 minutes a game. Comes over and immediately is a contributor for a winning team and not only shows glimpses of real high potential but also simply produces 5/% with 1 Block in just over 16 minutes.
Could definitely see him being a 10-12 RPG, 2.5 BPG guy that also pitches in with 12-15 PPG on solid percentage in 2 years. Plus great defense.

Durant now with 25 games of 25+ points, that´s insane. Only Jordan and Iverson ever did that.

[sooner333]

Harden can be the shooter they need, but as long as they don't give a Peja-type contract like the Hornets to a guy who just shoots, I think they'll be fine. Durant's done fine with the pressure and they have guys who can play a mid-range game (Krstic, Ibaka) or drive (Westbrook, Green). It's not the early 2000's where three-point shooting is as key (although it's still important).

The bigs need some work. Maybe they can use cap space to bring in Bosh (unlikely) or make a trade to get someone that can fill up space. I don't think they'll pull any big moves this year...they can move Thomas, but they won't get anything expiring in return. Collison is underrated and Ibaka could be the answer (or the guy that makes Green more expedanble).

Durant is small, but he keeps in great shape because he loves to play basketball. Plus, I think his slight frame helps him get a few calls that he otherwise might not get.

[TroyF]

I agree whomario, but keep in mind it's easier to pass the ball when you have guys who can hit outside shots. The better shooters they surround him with, the better passer he'll become.

I'm still not sure about Ibaka. His per 48's look good and usually that's an indicator of success, but I'm just not sure if he's the guy.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Cuckoo

Agreed with all points, though like you I'm not as concerned about number 3. It hasn't shown to be much of a problem so far; I worry more about his recklessness with the basketball from time to time. As for 1, I think Harden has the potential to develop into someone that will really help there. Westbrook has become quite a slasher, but he's inconsistent. And inconsistent definitely describes Jeff Green's offense.

On 2, I like things about all of their bigs actually, but they all seem like complementary guys and they could really use a force there. Of course, let's say they get an impact guy at the 4. That pushes Green to the bench. Not a bad thing, but it affects the chemistry, one of the team's greatest strengths. My contention is that OKC has to commit to keeping those other two together (Green and Westbrook) if they have a chance at keeping Durant long term. It's really a tight-knit group.

Green doesn't play well with Durant so I don't think the chemistry issue is that big of a deal.

I know a lot of people are high on Green, but I don't really think he's that special. If I was the Thunder, I'd trade him this offseason while his value is high and make a move for someone like David Lee in free agency.

[DeToxRox]

Nets bringing in those big crowds.

[RainMaker]

That has to be photoshopped?

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

That has to be photoshopped?

I am assuming so but it's sad when I have to question if that is the case or not.

[RainMaker]

It's not. I just turned it on. I'm guessing the snow storm played a role but it sounds like a high school gymnasium.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It's not. I just turned it on. I'm guessing the snow storm played a role but it sounds like a high school gymnasium.

That is sad. I remember a Pistons game several years ago where it was such an awful storm the refs couldn't even make it to the game until an hour past tip. A few friends and I ended up going since the game was pushed back from 7 until like 8:30. Anyway even then there was at least 2,000 people.

The weather is obviously a major reason but that team is just abysmal.

[Karlifornia]

Stephen Curry got a triple double on a rebound at the buzzer. It was pretty sweet. I would feel good about them trading Monta now.

[stevew]

Orlando at Cleveland at 8pm looks to be a good game. Hopefully the Cavs can win, Orlando is on the second night of a back to back.

[MrBug708]

Lakers play better defense without Kobe, which is odd