Trayvon Martin case to go to grand jury, Fla. state attorney announces

[Lathum]

My point was more about the double standard. I wasn't personally offended by it.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Man, there are some folks here who seem like they'd be more comfortable in 60's Alabama.

I haven read all the posts lately, so if I missed something then I apologize, but how about you add some intelligent conversation instead of taking shots at people who don't see things your way b

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Mike D

Who gives a shit? If somebody is offended, somebody is offended. That's how equal rights works. There are no exceptions without fucking up the true intent.

No see he is a white person that thought it was funny so he can generalize that another white person who questions how it would be taken if it were written in the other direction is just "huffy". However he can also generalize that a black person (of which he is not) is going to be more offended generally because of their lower status and all. Nothing offensive at all about that is there? Good thing this white guy is out there looking out for those people who can't speak for themselves because of their lack of wealth and power and status and all. What this has to do with a Hispanic guy shooting a black guy however is beyond me.

[Jukeman]

Originally Posted by Mike D

Yes.

So that mean you don't know..

[molson]

Originally Posted by Izulde

Personally, I thought it was hilarious.

And the problem with your getting all huffy about it is that one group is still a majority in this country (blah blah projections Hispanic population majority by 20XX blah blah), while the other is still very much a minority in terms of overall power, wealth, status, and numbers.

As far as societal racism, that's always a fair point, but if it's just a conversation about what happened and law, etc, it gets more difficult when there's someone who thinks that any views other than their own are just racist. If you don't respect someone enough to believe they're capable of a non-racist contrary opinions, you probably shouldn't attempt to bother with the discussion. If you're at the point where you think its racist and worthy of mocking to discuss the self-defense angle here, or what the law actually is (talking about the law is apparently a white thing), I think you're probably too far gone emotionally for rational discussion.

[Autumn]

I agree with you in a sense, Molson, but everybody has racist opinions. Everyone. So even when you respect someone enough to think they're not *a* racist, that doesn't mean something they are saying or doing or acting on isn't an element of racism. People tend to freak out as if racism is only a label for a person. But it's not about the person, it's about how we approach and react and talk about things. If we treat it as a label, we just create more polarized conversation.

[TCY Junkie]

Is it normal to beat the shit out of someone if they are stalking you?...... I mean if the guy followed you home and was looking in your windows that's something more. I just wonder why this had to happen? It just doesn't make sense to jump someone that is stalking. If he had a gun out chasing you around the neighbor than I could see hitting the guy. But the guy was trying to cut down crime in the neighbor as far as it seems. A guy that wants to clean up the neighborhood should be looked up to. If he feels he might put his life in danger than carrying a gun is fine. Now if he thinks he's going to run people off even if he has to use his gun than that's totally wrong. Neither one has been determined in my mind. I would never fear for my safety if someone stalked me like that, maybe I'm stupid but maybe they have no intent in harming me physically. There are people out there that care about their community after all.

If you can't prove he wanted to run someone off even if he used his gun than you can't convict him of murder in my mind. Sad he had to die, if he was 30 and always breaking laws it wouldn't bother me much. But he could have easily turned his life around. I don't know enough about the shooter to feel happy or sad that he's not in jail, but glad people aren't going to be hesitant to protect themselves if jumped and getting walloped. Yes, I want more people watching their neighborhoods that care about it.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by TCY Junkie

Is it normal to beat the shit out of someone if they are stalking you?

This is where I'm at with it. Sure if Zimmerman doesn't follow TM then this whole thing doesn't happen. But also if TM doesn't assault Z, then the whole thing ends differently as well.

It simply isn't ok to assault someone because you don't like their behavior, even if it is directed at you.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by Autumn

I agree with you in a sense, Molson, but everybody has racist opinions. Everyone. So even when you respect someone enough to think they're not *a* racist, that doesn't mean something they are saying or doing or acting on isn't an element of racism. People tend to freak out as if racism is only a label for a person. But it's not about the person, it's about how we approach and react and talk about things. If we treat it as a label, we just create more polarized conversation.

I'd agree with that. I try very hard to see things from as many points of view as possible, but it's sometimes difficult to eliminate bias because I have evolved a specific moral code and sense of right and wrong.

I knew it was a bad idea, but I indulged my curiosity by reading Rush Limbaugh's take on the Jeantel interview. Absolutely fascinating stuff. It doesn't exonerate Martin or Zimmerman, by any means, but it's a perfect illustration of how the true professional agitators out there (Limbaugh, Al Sharpton, etc) work. They are loving every minute of this. I don't think you could reach their level of success without truly loving these cases.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Autumn

I agree with you in a sense, Molson, but everybody has racist opinions. Everyone. So even when you respect someone enough to think they're not *a* racist, that doesn't mean something they are saying or doing or acting on isn't an element of racism. People tend to freak out as if racism is only a label for a person. But it's not about the person, it's about how we approach and react and talk about things. If we treat it as a label, we just create more polarized conversation.

There's research to back this up. People are much more likely to assume harmless intentions of their own race and harmful intentions of other races. IMO, that's why it's important to stop and examine what you're doing rather than just assuring yourself that you aren't a racist.

[Autumn]

Yes, exactly. It's very difficult to get people to examine their own behavior and deem it racist. part of it is just brain makeup, but it's not helped by the idea that 'racist' is an all or nothing thing that you either are or are not. Obviously no one's going to label themselves htat way. But we're all racist and we're just more or less aware and in control of it.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Nothing at all offensive about this. Wonder how you would react if someone posted the opposite.

Dear god, you are not an "oppressed minority". Seriously - stop acting as if you are.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Dear god, you are not an oppressed minority. Seriously - stop acting as if you are.

oh, ok, so it is cool for black people to stereotype and mock whites, but if it is opposite it is racist. Thanks for the lesson.

Show me one spot where I ever acted like an oppressed minority?

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Lathum

oh, ok, so it is cool for black people to stereotype and mock whites, but if it is opposite it is racist. Thanks for the lesson.

Show me one spot where I ever acted like an oppressed minority?

No, it is not cool for that. Please show me where I said that. But its also worth noting that are differences between being in a majority position and a minority one, or are we suggesting that's not the case?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

No, it is not cool for that. Please show me where I said that. But its also worth noting that are differences between being in a majority position and a minority one, or are we suggesting that's not the case?

of course there are differences, and I realize the history of race in this country, I majored in history.

Do you think that just because one group in an "oppressed minority", blacks, African Americans, whatever PC term, that it is OK for someone from that group to post something that is blatantly racist?

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Lathum

of course there are differences, and I realize the history of race in this country, I majored in history.

Do you think that just because one group in an "oppressed minority", blacks, African Americans, whatever PC term, that it is OK for someone from that group to post something that is blatantly racist?

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Lathum

of course there are differences, and I realize the history of race in this country, I majored in history.

Do you think that just because one group in an "oppressed minority", blacks, African Americans, whatever PC term, that it is OK for someone from that group to post something that is blatantly racist?

Perhaps we missed the part where I answered this question the previous time you asked it. What YD posted was not racist - what so offended you about it?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Perhaps we missed the part where I answered this question the previous time you asked it. What YD posted was not racist - what so offended you about it?

you don't think, at the very least, there aren't white stereotypes in there?

I find it hard to believe you don't see how that can come off as racist, but we can agree to disagree.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Jukeman

So that mean you don't know..

Well, we are talking in generalizations here. I know that everyone that is killed has grieving families and friends and sometimes communities. What I am getting at is to highlight this ONE case and hold it up as THE standard is bullshit. It's so remotely unlike those other 11,000 killings that the outpouring of "It's back to 1960's Alabama!" is laughable.

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by Mike D

In the 513 days between Trayvon dying and the jury's verdict; over 11,000 African-Americans have been murdered. A vast majority of which didn't get a single tear from anybody but their mom's.

Reminds me of this quote: One single Anne Frank moves us more than the countless others who suffered just as she did but whose faces have remained in the shadows. Perhaps it is better that way; if we were capable of taking in all the suffering of all those people, we would not be able to live.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Lathum

you don't think, at the very least, there aren't white stereotypes in there?

I find it hard to believe you don't see how that can come off as racist, but we can agree to disagree.

I think this gets back to the crux of "some of us cannot internalize that we are all racists to some degree or another". That chart was meant to be devisive and to fingerpoint that white moderate conservatives (mostly) are to be made fun of because it's okay...there are a lot of them. YD agreeing that was important to be posted makes him just like what he dislikes. A profiler. Which doesn't mean he's got evil intent, it just makes him a human that needs to learn a thing or two.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by AENeuman

Reminds me of this quote: One single Anne Frank moves us more than the countless others who suffered just as she did but whose faces have remained in the shadows. Perhaps it is better that way; if we were capable of taking in all the suffering of all those people, we would not be able to live.

Ann Frank was a Jew in an era and during a war where 6 million Jews where targeted and lost their lives. If the Allies had gotten together and invaded Mexico, I would have been just as puzzled as I am today.

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by Mike D

Ann Frank was a Jew in an era and during a war where 6 million Jews where targeted and lost their lives. If the Allies had gotten together and invaded Mexico, I would have been just as puzzled as I am today.

Thanks for the history lesson, I didn't realize that quote could only be understood literally.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by AENeuman

Thanks for the history lesson, I didn't realize that quote could only be understood literally.

We're just having a conversation.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Mike D

I think this gets back to the crux of "some of us cannot internalize that we are all racists to some degree or another". That chart was meant to be devisive and to fingerpoint that white moderate conservatives (mostly) are to be made fun of because it's okay...there are a lot of them. YD agreeing that was important to be posted makes him just like what he dislikes. A profiler. Which doesn't mean he's got evil intent, it just makes him a human that needs to learn a thing or two.

Stop with this equivocalizing. Do you seriously buy that racism from some Louis Farrakhan type-idiot has the same effect as racism from a group with more power? The "everyone is a racist" bit is a copout - its meant to let you feel good about yourself, etc etc.

Its pretty clear that on the Zimmerman trial, it did not rise to the level of reasonable doubt - the jury did the right thing given the way our justice system functions, and that's all you can ask them to do. I think you'd be hard pressed to find people who disagree with that. But what is scary is the people (including some here) who think a dead young black kid is ok, because he may have had tattoos or smoked weed - that makes him a "punk" or a "thug" (whichever dog whistle you want to use) and thus Zimmerman's desire to go chase him was ok within that. Its the same type of defense that says a girl who get raped "deserved it", and is disgusting. You can absolutely believe that Zimmerman's actions did not rise to criminality (based on the proof we have) while acknowledging that its despicable that our laws suggest stalking some kid is ok, because of SYG\.

[Dutch]

its meant to let you feel good about yourself, etc etc.

Let's stop right there. Are you saying that I am a racist and you are not?

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Stop with this equivocalizing. Do you seriously buy that racism from some Louis Farrakhan type-idiot has the same effect as racism from a group with more power? The "everyone is a racist" bit is a copout - its meant to let you feel good about yourself, etc etc.

Well, he's gone. Racism begets racism. It needs to be snuffed out from the basic core first and then that core will rise to power later. It doesn't work the other way around if the core is corrupt, because in America, we have the power. How do we get young people to stop calling each other names and focusing on the color of our skin or what type of hair we have? By blaming white people? C'mon...it starts by us all having some responsibility in making sure we raise ourselves right.

Its pretty clear that on the Zimmerman trial, it did not rise to the level of reasonable doubt - the jury did the right thing given the way our justice system functions, and that's all you can ask them to do. I think you'd be hard pressed to find people who disagree with that. But what is scary is the people (including some here) who think a dead young black kid is ok, because he may have had tattoos or smoked weed - that makes him a "punk" or a "thug" (whichever dog whistle you want to use) and thus Zimmerman's desire to go chase him was ok within that. Its the same type of defense that says a girl who get raped "deserved it", and is disgusting. You can absolutely believe that Zimmerman's actions did not rise to criminality (based on the proof we have) while acknowledging that its despicable that our laws suggest stalking some kid is ok, because of SYG\.

I am saying that 11,000 black men have died in the last year or so and YOU don't give a shit because THEY were not killed by a white dude. How on Earth is "White people are racist" solving anything here? And to equate SYG and/or self-defense to "deserving rape" just means you are having a really hard time grasping what has taken place. Our laws do not suggest stalking is okay. As a matter of fact, stalking is illegal. If he was stalking, charge him for it. The fact that he wasn't charged for stalking means you are fabricating claims. That's three fallacies on your part. You call me a racist, you call his actions akin to rape, and say he was illegally stalking...yet none of it is part of the logical conversation.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by AENeuman

Reminds me of this quote: One single Anne Frank moves us more than the countless others who suffered just as she did but whose faces have remained in the shadows. Perhaps it is better that way; if we were capable of taking in all the suffering of all those people, we would not be able to live.

So I guess the moral of the story is that a culture of violence that kills thousands a year can be excused as long as the skin color matches? It is true, though, in all aspects of life, we can more readily identify with an individual instead of the nameless masses.

[Dutch]

George Zimmerman Complained About Sanford Police in Defense of Homeless Black Man

'Kill Zimmerman' painted on business before arson in Downingtown, Pennsylvania | 6abc.com

I admit though, this is a fascinating story.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

You can absolutely believe that Zimmerman's actions did not rise to criminality (based on the proof we have) while acknowledging that its despicable that our laws suggest stalking some kid is ok, because of SYG\.

I don't think he was stalking the kid, I think his actions are pretty consistent with neighborhood watch type behavior. I do think he expressed an over zealousness in his conversation with the dispatcher, and his prior behavior tends to make me think that he lacks more than a little character. But I don't think that following someone with the intent to make sure they don't avoid the police amounts to stalking nor that it would constitute grounds for forfeiting one's right to self defense.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Perhaps we missed the part where I answered this question the previous time you asked it. What YD posted was not racist - what so offended you about it?

The theme of that bingo chart is, "this is wacky shit white people come up with to cover up their racism and happiness over Martin's death and Zimmerman's acquittal". "When white people talk about white people stuff like the law, they're really being racist, and we see right through them."

I think the chart and the comments along the same lines is more like trolling than sincere racism though. The goal is to get white people to feel generalized and riled up, so they can experience just a small taste of the reality of suppressed minorities. "See how you like it". And I get it - it's not fun to be generalized as a racist, but it's at least 1,000 times worse, and much more dangerous, to be generalized by a racial profiling cop, or by a paranoid armed neighborhood watchmen. It's still racist though, and it's still trolling, and IMO, it really has no place in a discussion like this where people are talking about this civilly. Why troll us?

[molson]

Originally Posted by Autumn

I agree with you in a sense, Molson, but everybody has racist opinions. Everyone. So even when you respect someone enough to think they're not *a* racist, that doesn't mean something they are saying or doing or acting on isn't an element of racism. People tend to freak out as if racism is only a label for a person. But it's not about the person, it's about how we approach and react and talk about things. If we treat it as a label, we just create more polarized conversation.

OK, but how can we reconcile that reality with the discussions surrounding an event like this? I think I see what you're saying, that if someone maybe raises the possibility that a particular view is based on a non-malicious ignorance, or a non-malicious prejudice, that maybe instead of being immediately offended and shutting down and responding angrily, we just look inward and think - hmm, maybe I am looking at this with a bias viewpoint? I totally agree, but that kind of response is much less likely when the race issue (or any bias) is set forth via a snarky bingo chart, or dismissive comments like, "stay classy FOFC", etc. If someone wants a serious discussion about the real bias we all have, I think you can approach the subject with more respect for the other person than that, and also acknowledge that you yourself have bias as well. Otherwise it comes off like you're attacking people from an ivory tower of moral perfection, and it's only everyone else that has the problem. It's the easiest thing in the world to try to invalidate others' opinions with accusations of bias, it's much more difficult to raise the issue in a manner that would encourage people to actually examine their own bias, and it's even harder to examine your own bias. Also difficult - recognizing the bias in others and still having enough respect for them to see any underlying validity in the opinion. I guess if there's a group that accomplish all that, you can have some real adult conversations. (And I'm not saying I'm particularly good at any of those things - I'm right now finding myself completely disregarding the opinions of people who I think have a racial bias towards Martin and against Zimmerman - which is exactly the sort of thing I wouldn't want people to do to my own opinions.).

[Jukeman]

Originally Posted by Mike D

Well, he's gone. Racism begets racism. It needs to be snuffed out from the basic core first and then that core will rise to power later. It doesn't work the other way around if the core is corrupt, because in America, we have the power. How do we get young people to stop calling each other names and focusing on the color of our skin or what type of hair we have? By blaming white people? C'mon...it starts by us all having some responsibility in making sure we raise ourselves right.



I am saying that 11,000 black men have died in the last year or so and YOU don't give a shit because THEY were not killed by a white dude. How on Earth is "White people are racist" solving anything here? And to equate SYG and/or self-defense to "deserving rape" just means you are having a really hard time grasping what has taken place. Our laws do not suggest stalking is okay. As a matter of fact, stalking is illegal. If he was stalking, charge him for it. The fact that he wasn't charged for stalking means you are fabricating claims. That's three fallacies on your part. You call me a racist, you call his actions akin to rape, and say he was illegally stalking...yet none of it is part of the logical conversation.

I give a shit and I also give a shit that so called African Americans are killed every 90 mins by law enforcement. The notion that you think people do not care because it isn't a big story in the news is mind boggling. There are rallies, events, programs for these things yearly.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Jukeman

I give a shit and I also give a shit that so called African Americans are killed every 90 mins by law enforcement. The notion that you think people do not care because it isn't a big story in the news is mind boggling. There are rallies, events, programs for these things yearly.

Is that stat accurate? That seems like a lot more officer involved shootings than seems possible. Is this counting TV?

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Jukeman

I give a shit and I also give a shit that so called African Americans are killed every 90 mins by law enforcement. The notion that you think people do not care because it isn't a big story in the news is mind boggling. There are rallies, events, programs for these things yearly.

You've posted how many times about Trayvon Martin and how many times about those 11,000 that were killed? How many hours did Martin get on TV? How many did the 11,000 killed get? How about people that are killed in Chicago each weekend? How much time are they getting. If you allow the conversation to be about ALL white people, then allow my response to be about ALL coverage. When I say YOU don't care, I'm talking about America, black America, white America, whatever. Now America cares? Give me a break and they want to target white conservatives? Give me a break.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

Is that stat accurate? That seems like a lot more officer involved shootings than seems possible. Is this counting TV?

5840. It's complete bullshit.

[Jukeman]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

Is that stat accurate? That seems like a lot more officer involved shootings than seems possible. Is this counting TV?

My fault thats includes put in jail.

They are actually killed every 36 hours.

[molson]

It looks like the range is around 600 to 700 people are in relation to an arrest a year, and that includes “all manners of deaths," which I assume would include all races, all justified killings, and in-custody heart attacks/ODs.

Is The Increasing Number of Cops Killed by Perps Really a "Disturbing Trend"? - Hit & Run : Reason.com

[Jukeman]

Originally Posted by Mike D

You've posted how many times about Trayvon Martin and how many times about those 11,000 that were killed? How many hours did Martin get on TV? How many did the 11,000 killed get? How about people that are killed in Chicago each weekend? How much time are they getting. If you allow the conversation to be about ALL white people, then allow my response to be about ALL coverage. When I say YOU don't care, I'm talking about America, black America, white America, whatever. Now America cares? Give me a break and they want to target white conservatives? Give me a break.

I actually used to post stuff on OS ALL the time about these type of news articles and those threads never end well.

Who said anything about all white people? I haven't post anything about a white person in any of my post..

I already said this Trayvon case is getting coverage because of an agenda.

And of course America doesn't care...That is why minority communities have these rallies and awareness events..

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by molson

It looks like the range is around 600 to 700 people are in relation to an arrest a year, and that includes “all manners of deaths," which I assume would include all races, all justified killings, and in-custody heart attacks/ODs.

Is The Increasing Number of Cops Killed by Perps Really a "Disturbing Trend"? - Hit & Run : Reason.com

Doesn't quite equate to 1 every 90 minutes

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Jukeman

I actually used to post stuff on OS ALL the time about these type of news articles and those threads never end well.

Who said anything about all white people? I haven't post anything about a white person in any of my post..

I already said this Trayvon case is getting coverage because of an agenda.

And of course America doesn't care...That is why minority communities have these rallies and awareness events..

I'm just not sure the minority communities are focusing their efforts properly. If the end goal is to stop young black kids from getting killed, I am absolutely clueless why the target is George Zimmerman...or white conservatives. It doesn't make sense.

As for the media. What I feel like has happened is the black community as a whole has been incited by the mass media. It was a fabrication from the start, a sham. What was the agenda? To fire raci$m back up? People are protesting this because they honestly feel like white people are stalking blacks all over the country, killing them, and getting away with it. It's ridiculous, but that's where we are now. Way to make us all "aware" of that CNN/MSNBC/FOX NEWS.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Mike D

I'm just not sure the minority communities are focusing their efforts properly. If the end goal is to stop young black kids from getting killed, I am absolutely clueless why the target is George Zimmerman...or white conservatives. It doesn't make sense.

As for the media. What I feel like has happened is the black community as a whole has been incited by the mass media. It was a fabrication from the start, a sham. What was the agenda? To fire raci$m back up? People are protesting this because they honestly feel like white people are stalking blacks all over the country, killing them, and getting away with it. It's ridiculous, but that's where we are now. Way to make us all "aware" of that CNN/MSNBC/FOX NEWS.

Unfortunately, George Zimmerman is the face today. As with all the discussion that has taken place over the last page and a half, I think it is obvious that we don't need the media to fire racism back up. There seems to be a consensus that racism does exist and has not gone anywhere. Gotten better? Sure. Disappeared. Definitely not. I also think there are multiple reasons for protest. I think that many of the protestors are just as tired of being generalized of being suspicious as their opponents are of being racists.

As far as the end goal...hmm that actually could be the start of an interesting conversation. But the idea that the conversation is one for the minority community is troublesome for me. I mean if the end goal were to stop young black kids from getting killed, does that mean that it is only the end goal of the black community? Of course not. I believe that the is the end goal for every community. Now understand, I am not suggesting that you meant it was only the goal of the black community. I am suggesting that it is in best interests of all communities.

[Dutch]

But the idea that the conversation is one for the minority community is troublesome for me. I mean if the end goal were to stop young black kids from getting killed, does that mean that it is only the end goal of the black
community? Of course not. I believe that the is the end goal for every
community. Now understand, I am not suggesting that you meant it was only the goal of the black community. I am suggesting that it is in best interests of all communities.

I agree, trust me, I'd like to be a part of the conversation. The agenda so far has not be inclusion...afterall, how can we possibly be a part of the conversation when the plaintiff's have their fingers in our faces saying we did this? Anyway, the picture that Young Drachma posted, clearly articulated who was part of the conversation and who wasn't, which is why it should be construed as offensive material.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Mike D

I agree, trust me, I'd like to be a part of the conversation. The agenda so far has not be inclusion...afterall, how can we possibly be a part of the conversation when the plaintiff's have their fingers in our faces saying we did this? Anyway, the picture that Young Drachma posted, clearly articulated who was part of the conversation and who wasn't, which is why it should be construed as offensive material.

Yes. Not to beat a dead horse here too much with the bingo chart but I think it shows exactly why there often isn't a conversation about race. It contains 25 squares, some of the squares are obviously supposed to be outlandish and ridiculous and then some of the squares are legitimate arguments. It would be like making a chart about arguing with a liberal on the Iraq War and having a square that says "Hug trees, make love" another says "Bush sucks" and then some of them actually contain real points about why the war is bad "Innocent children dead", "Cost", "Creates new enemies", etc... So what you have done is two things...

1) Marginalized all possible discussion points (including ones that would lead to meaningful discussion)
2) Implied that someone who wants to say "Why are people rioting and destroying their own shops and going after cops and the "system" (who arrested Zimmerman and prosecuted him for second degree murder)?" is the same as someone who says "I have black friends so..."

I am sure the response will be that it was just a joke but the bingo chart is a perfect symbol for how discussions like this usually go.

[cartman]

The other jurors sure don't seem too pleased with the Juror B37 that did all of the interviews. 4 of them released a statement that she in no way reflected their views of what happened in the jury room.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by molson

The theme of that bingo chart is, "this is wacky shit white people come up with to cover up their racism and happiness over Martin's death and Zimmerman's acquittal". "When white people talk about white people stuff like the law, they're really being racist, and we see right through them."

I think the chart and the comments along the same lines is more like trolling than sincere racism though. The goal is to get white people to feel generalized and riled up, so they can experience just a small taste of the reality of suppressed minorities. "See how you like it". And I get it - it's not fun to be generalized as a racist, but it's at least 1,000 times worse, and much more dangerous, to be generalized by a racial profiling cop, or by a paranoid armed neighborhood watchmen. It's still racist though, and it's still trolling, and IMO, it really has no place in a discussion like this where people are talking about this civilly. Why troll us?

+1

The problem is not whether the chart is racist or not. the problem is that in American when discussions of racism comes around somehow we spend up spending a surprising amount of time discussing racism towards whites, as if that is a significant problem in our culture today. You can argue 'til you're blue in the face that any kind of racism is wrong, and of course you are right. But in general the time that America spends talking about racism against whites is time not spent talking about much, much more serious and significant racism against others that is ingrained into our culture and psychology. The attention should be proportional to the amount and significance of the event. But any time you talk about an issue like racism or sexism, it's normal for the dominant group to somehow subvert the discussion to be about them. That's part of the problem.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Stop with this equivocalizing. Do you seriously buy that racism from some Louis Farrakhan type-idiot has the same effect as racism from a group with more power? The "everyone is a racist" bit is a copout - its meant to let you feel good about yourself, etc etc.

Its pretty clear that on the Zimmerman trial, it did not rise to the level of reasonable doubt - the jury did the right thing given the way our justice system functions, and that's all you can ask them to do. I think you'd be hard pressed to find people who disagree with that. But what is scary is the people (including some here) who think a dead young black kid is ok, because he may have had tattoos or smoked weed - that makes him a "punk" or a "thug" (whichever dog whistle you want to use) and thus Zimmerman's desire to go chase him was ok within that. Its the same type of defense that says a girl who get raped "deserved it", and is disgusting. You can absolutely believe that Zimmerman's actions did not rise to criminality (based on the proof we have) while acknowledging that its despicable that our laws suggest stalking some kid is ok, because of SYG\.

Great post - well said.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Autumn

+1

The problem is not whether the chart is racist or not. the problem is that in American when discussions of racism comes around somehow we spend up spending a surprising amount of time discussing racism towards whites, as if that is a significant problem in our culture today. You can argue 'til you're blue in the face that any kind of racism is wrong, and of course you are right. But in general the time that America spends talking about racism against whites is time not spent talking about much, much more serious and significant racism against others that is ingrained into our culture and psychology. The attention should be proportional to the amount and significance of the event. But any time you talk about an issue like racism or sexism, it's normal for the dominant group to somehow subvert the discussion to be about them. That's part of the problem.

Nobody here's really lamenting the plight of whites in America. They reacted to a racist chart. The purpose of posting the chart was to get that reaction. I'm not sure how much time America is spending talking about racism against whites, but in this instance, that topic was initiated by that poster, for the purpose of trolling an otherwise mostly civil discussion.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by molson

Nobody here's really lamenting the plight of whites in America. They reacted to a racist chart. The purpose of posting the chart was to get that reaction. I'm not sure how much time America is spending talking about racism against whites, but in this instance, that topic was initiated by that poster, for the purpose of trolling an otherwise mostly civil discussion.

I have never participated in a single discussion about racism, in person or ont he internet, with a broad audience that did not get diverted into discussions of "reverse discrimination" or "reverse racism" and all that. If you have, I would like to move to your house.

[Autumn]

And to clarify, I'm not really discussing the chart in particular or even this thread in particular. Just the general tendency of these sort of discussions to fall into the same ruts.