*World Cup Game Discussion Thread* (SPOILERS)

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Originally Posted by law90026

There isn't much choice unfortunately. If you watch enough soccer, you realise that not going to ground means it's unlikely you get a free-kick. And if you go to ground but spring back up immediately, it appears you dived. So you have to at least pretend to be slightly more hurt than you really are.

Sad but true. Diving begot diving. I like Ronaldhino though. He goes to ground sometimes, but damn if he doesn't often times hop, skip, and jump over guys clattering his heels as he tries to keep the play alive.

[law90026]

The teams that look good to me thus far (based on the games I watched):
1) Spain: Maybe this is the year they finally get it together.
2) Germany: They look good so far.
3) Czech Republic: Mm, Rosicky is good. Nedved too.

Disappointing teams:
1) England: Overhyped, unimaginative. Horrible game against Paraguay.
2) France: What a horrible performance. Zidane looks past his best, Henry continues to look unsure in a France jersey, Riberry holds on to the ball way too long, Wiltord has reverted to his Arsenal form ... seriously, their inability to break down the Swiss scares me.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Vinatieri for Prez

Yes, but 11 Eddie Johnson's will neither win a World Cup nor make the MLS a superpower league, which is what I was responding to. Will the U.S. continue to get better - yes. Will it win a World Cup in 10 years (that's the next two ones) or have DC United challenging or outplaying AC Milan or Bayern Munich -- not a chance.

Will the US be much, much better in 4 and 8 years, absolutely. Will they win the WC in the next two tournaments? Who knows? So much is down to luck of the draw. If they were in a different group this year, their chances would be different, so who knows? I think you're looking at things statically versus how they are trending.

[Narcizo]

Originally Posted by Anxiety

What's the name fo teh song that comes on the stadium speakers at the end of each match? It sounds like Pet Shop Boys, "Go West," which I beleive is a remake of a Village People song.

I think it is Go West. Germany used it as their official World Cup song in 1994 ("Go West" to America. See. Clever!) with members of the squad looking vaguely embarrassed about appearing in a video with Village People. Until Klinnsmann took over it was the most/only interesting thing about (West) Germany.

[Narcizo]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

I agree. I couldn't tell if I was watching the Swedish soccer team or the Swedish Springboard Diving team. Not trying to pick on them as every match has somebody rolling over and screaming and hollering at the top of their lungs, then getting up, taking 2 ginger steps, then racing upfield after the ball. Yeah, right.

I think you're thinking of the Trinidad & Tobago player there actually. And he was time wasting. An age-old tradition. Sweden (particularly Wilhelmsson) did engage in a bit of theatrics but in Wilhelmsson's defence he really needed to get Avery John sent off before he caused someone a serious injury. If I was in Wilhelmsson's boots, right after getting a decent haircut, I'd make it a priority to get John sent off so that I could, you know, continue playing soccer and earning money for years to come instead of sitting around a hospital not earning money. He should have been sent off in the first half.

As the frustration at being unable to score and with T&T's time wasting mounted it's pretty natural that people are going to try and get a free kick when they, once again, make a hash of their first touch and are going to lose the ball. Again.

I quite like the odd theatric dive, as long as a penalty isn't given it's always good for a laugh. The Ghana player's (can't remember who it was) effort in throwing himself to the ground has been the highlight of this branch of soccer entertainment so far in the competition. It had everything. The build up where he had dribbled past a couple of players but was patently starting to lose control of the ball, the holding off until he was in the penalty box, the superficial appearance that he might have been nudged by an Italian, the swan dive like he was a felled tree. All it lacked was the remonstration with the referee afterwards for not giving the penalty. 5.5 points.

[Narcizo]

DOLA

Re:England. The hope in England at the moment is that the particularly poor second half showing is down to the fact that England completely ignored the conditions and played with a pressing game high up the field for most of the first half. No surprise that they run out of puff in the second half. Much the same thing happened to Poland and they weren't playing in 100+ degrees. And most of Paraguay's chances came from mistakes made by English players. Hopefully something that will disappear when the players aren't exhausted and when Ashley Cole has played himself into something at least vaguely resembling match form. And the fact that they don't have an in-form striker of top international class didn't help matter. But at least Ronaldo's showing made lickle Mickey Owen look like he was on top of his game.

Brazil weren't all that impressive and wouldn't be able to complain had they only got a draw from Croatia. Ronaldinho was particurly underwhelming given the fact that every TV presenter everywhere feels it necessary to wank on about how he is the best thing in the world of football ever. And the manager's statement that Ronaldo is always going to start for Brazil must fill all potential opponents with wild euphoria at the moment. Not only is it one less man to worry about marking it also makes the offside trap an easy proposition to set up.

[law90026]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

Will the US be much, much better in 4 and 8 years, absolutely. Will they win the WC in the next two tournaments? Who knows? So much is down to luck of the draw. If they were in a different group this year, their chances would be different, so who knows? I think you're looking at things statically versus how they are trending.

I don't think so. Is it possible for the US to win a WC? Anything's possible (see Greece). Is it likely or even a decent chance? No.

Put it this way. For the US, the objective really isn't to win it. The objective is to get a good run and get into the knockout stages. If one were realistic about it, this could be admitted as fact.

The winners of the WC are going to be nations that have strong national leagues and/or a contingent of star players playing in the strongest leagues in the world (EPL, La Liga, Serie A). The US is unlikely to be able to do this, simply because soccer isn't popular enough in the US. Without this, the US national team is unlikely to ever be strong enough to mount a serious challenge for the WC.

Ignore the results of 4 years ago. The US was a relatively unknown quantity then, same as Korea, and their drive/determination proved sufficient to push them into the knockout stages. But the US is a known quantity now and teams know what to look out for. It's not going to be possible for the US to spring such a surprise any more. Bear in mind there's always a surprise team in every major tournament (think Cameroon, Korea, US, Sweden, etc). That doesn't mean these teams are going to become soccer powerhouses though.

[MIJB#19]

I listed teams the way I feel they rank right now. Performance at this world cup was a big factor, but I tried to put in the super day/off day factor. If you don't agree with it, it'd be more than happy to see the lists you would make. And yes, the USA and France are possibly ranked too high, but for both teams I think that against most other teams in the tournament, things could hae gone differently. Although, France ranks that high solely on potential. I really think things can click out of nowhere again.

Originally Posted by Vinatieri for Prez

Spoken like a true European. I love European football, and think it has some of the best players. But the time has long gone that the European Championship represents anywere near a collection of the best teams in the world. I stand by my statement that Greece, a second tier team, will never win the World Cup (but could make the semi-finals when the planets align).

I think people who said that about Greece not winning the European Championship would have been right several years ago. But of late, European football has become very diluted, and so when the planets align, a second tier team in Europe can WIN the European Championship. Not only Greece, but before that there was Denmark, Czech Republic, etc. The World cup is a whole different ball game.

Greece winning in 2004 was more of an upset than anything else I've seen in the past 15 years in any sport I watch. It was a total unexpected turn of events. An amazing team performance by a team that never qualified for anything, except for WC'94 thanks to the Yugoslavian civil war (Yugoslavia were the top seeds in Greece's group), where they got humiliated big time, with two 4-0 losses and a 2-0 loss. Still, back in 2004, things just clicked for them and they played well, upset the higher rated teams and won the tournament. Given that it lasted 6 games in 30 days, it ain't much of a surprise to see one team end up in superb form and get upset results in 3 or 4 games along the way.

Putting Denmark and the Czech Republic in the same class as Greece just doesn't make sense at all.

[tanglewood]

Those labelling the Danish team as an upset in the Greece is a bit harsh on them. They had a pretty good team at Euro 92, the Laudrup brothers, John Jensen, Schmeichel in goal and so on. As to them not qualifying, Euro 92 only had 8 teams participate and one of them qualified automaticaly as hosts, so it was much more difficult to qualify back then.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by law90026

The teams that look good to me thus far (based on the games I watched):
1) Spain: Maybe this is the year they finally get it together.

Looked great in their first game - but the 'real' test will be when they come up against a stubborn well organised side, Ukraine looked in disarray at the back and flattered spain to a certain extent.

I'd love to see them do well as they've some great players and can be fantastic to watch.

2) Germany: They look good so far.

Home advantage will take Germany to the semi's I reckon - but they lack creativity in midfield outside of Ballack so the first team to mark him out of the game will knock them out imho.

1) England: Overhyped, unimaginative. Horrible game against Paraguay.

We're always 'overhyped' because of the passion for football here, we 'could' win it - but to be honest it'd be a surprise.

We've some good players and are well organised defensively, but lack a real cutting edge in our attack unless Rooney surprises everyone by coming back fully fit ... I still don't understand why Svein didn't bring along another striker in the squad, if he isn't going to play Walcott then he shouldn't be there (and to be frank the idea of a player who hasn't played a full senior game for his squad playing for England in the world cup doesn't exactly fill me with confidence).

Overall Winner prediction - if the weather cools down a European side will win, probably Spain, Italy or England (heart more than head to include them, but I can't leave them out ) .... if the weather stays hot either Argentina or Brazil will win.

[Narcizo]

Putting Denmark in the same category certainly does make sense as they only qualified because Yugoslavia was booted out of the contest and absolutely no-one believed they could beat a Holland side that was playing some of the best football in (my) living memory in the group stages. Admittedly the Semi-final/Final nature of the contest made it easier for an upset to occur but that should be countered with the theoretically much stronger nature of the group phase. (It didn't turn out that way because of a typically underperforming France side and an England side managed by Graham Taylor).

[tanglewood]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

We've some good players and are well organised defensively, but lack a real cutting edge in our attack unless Rooney surprises everyone by coming back fully fit ... I still don't understand why Svein didn't bring along another striker in the squad, if he isn't going to play Walcott then he shouldn't be there (and to be frank the idea of a player who hasn't played a full senior game for his squad playing for England in the world cup doesn't exactly fill me with confidence).

Sorry to be a bit pedantic, but this little bit sometimes gets me on my nerves a bit. Walcott has played senior football at Southampton and did well enough for Arsenal to spend £10m on him, he just hasn't played senior football for his current club. By the same token you could say Ballack, Rosicky and Shevchencko haven't played senior fooball for their clubs yet.

I know, very nitpicky, but still I think sometimes it has to be said to keep the correct perspective. This isn't exactly an endorsement though, if Sven was only going to take 4 strikers I'd rather hve either Defoe or Bent. If he took 5 I wouldn't have so much of a problem, but I don't think he should've been carried with only 4 strikers.

Of course, a few nights ago I did have a dream that we were 1-0 down to Argentina and Walcott cam on for the last 10 mins and got a goal with his first touch, then burst through the defence to score the winner in injury time, so you never know...

[cartman]

Nice goal there by Ecuador.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Narcizo

Putting Denmark in the same category certainly does make sense as they only qualified because Yugoslavia was booted out of the contest and absolutely no-one believed they could beat a Holland side that was playing some of the best football in (my) living memory in the group stages. Admittedly the Semi-final/Final nature of the contest made it easier for an upset to occur but that should be countered with the theoretically much stronger nature of the group phase. (It didn't turn out that way because of a typically underperforming France side and an England side managed by Graham Taylor).

French teams don't typically underperform, France are four-time world cup and four-time Euro' semi finalists.

Now about that Denmark - Greece comparishing, watch the facts of WC/Euro's results and then tell me whether they're still in the same class:

Greece:
2004 - champs
2002 - not qualified
2000 - not qualified
1998 - not qualified
1996 - not qualified
1994 - 24/24
pre 1994 - never qualifed

Denmark:
2004 - quarterfinals
2002 - round of 16
2000 - out in group phase (with Ned, Fra)
1998 - quarterfinals
1996 - quarterfinals
1994 - not qualifed
1992 - champs
1990 - not qualified
1988 - out in group phase
1986 - round of 16
1984 - semi finals
pre 1984 - never qualified

[daedalus]

Originally Posted by law90026

2) France: What a horrible performance. Zidane looks past his best, Henry continues to look unsure in a France jersey, Riberry holds on to the ball way too long, Wiltord has reverted to his Arsenal form ... seriously, their inability to break down the Swiss scares me.

I honestly think they will continue to have problem if they keep trying to play Zidane, Vieira and Makelele in the same midfield. There just won't be enough width or creativity. With 2 of the 3 anchoring the midfield and Ribery and Dhorasoo wide, I think they will be much more dangerous. Problem is, I do not know many managers (other than perhaps Scolari) with the balls to sit any of the 3.

[daedalus]

Hey, wow. I did not noticed before but Mozilla apparently have some kind of add-on specifically for the World Cup. I don't know if it's any good since, with 56K, I think it will be useless for me but it looks spiffy.

http://www.mozilla.com/add-ons/jogacompanion/

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by tanglewood

Sorry to be a bit pedantic, but this little bit sometimes gets me on my nerves a bit. Walcott has played senior football at Southampton and did well enough for Arsenal to spend £10m on him, he just hasn't played senior football for his current club. By the same token you could say Ballack, Rosicky and Shevchencko haven't played senior fooball for their clubs yet.

The difference is that Southampton weren't playing at the highest level in the country and aren't considered a 'top' club in that country (which is why I stress he's unplayed at Arsenal).

As such he's untested at the top domestic level - let alone International level (which is the point I was trying to make).

This isn't a 'slur' against Southampton - I'd have stated the same thing if Gareth Barry back when he left Brighton had gone straight into the International squad when he signed for Aston Villa, its not a sensible thing to do imho.

if Sven was only going to take 4 strikers I'd rather hve either Defoe or Bent. If he took 5 I wouldn't have so much of a problem, but I don't think he should've been carried with only 4 strikers.

I'd have liked either of those or preferably Ashton if he'd been fit.

Of course, a few nights ago I did have a dream that we were 1-0 down to Argentina and Walcott cam on for the last 10 mins and got a goal with his first touch, then burst through the defence to score the winner in injury time, so you never know...

If that happens then I'll happily forgive Svein for his inclusion and I'd fully expect to find him starting for Arsenal next season also

[cartman]

Another great goal by Ecuador. Looks like they will be the first team to qualify for the knockout round.

[cartman]

dola, make that second. I guess Germany made it yesterday with their 2nd win.

[Huckleberry]

Originally Posted by cartman

dola, make that second. I guess Germany made it yesterday with their 2nd win.

Actually an Ecuador win clinches it for both Ecuador and Germany. An Ecuador draw clinches it for Germany.

Heading into today it was possible for Germany to not advance if Costa Rica beat Ecuador today, Ecuador beat Germany, and Costa Rica beat Poland. Then goal differential would decide it.

[daedalus]

2 FM moments as I watch the WC:

1) As I watch Ivan Kaviedes, "Ah, yes. Slow but skillful. I remember him from Frogger's dynasty."

2) As I watch Ecuador score (gorgeous goal, by the way) as the Costa Rica coach give final instruction to his substitute, "SONOFABITCH! That happens to me when I try to get a substitute in, TOO!"

[daedalus]

So, uhhh, on the topic of that fellow, do y'all think that foot stamp on Kaviedes was intentional or accidental?

[Butter]

Accidental.

If this result holds up, Germany will need a win over Ecuador to finish first.... otherwise, ECU will win the group on goal difference. That will be a hell of a match early next week.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

Accidental.

If this result holds up, Germany will need a win over Ecuador to finish first.... otherwise, ECU will win the group on goal difference. That will be a hell of a match early next week.

Yeah. And I'm not so sure the Germans will win that one. I'd find it really cool to see Ecuador win the group really.

[cartman]

Ecuador has been the pleasant surprise of the tournament to me so far. Granted, I didn't pay much attention to South American qualifying, but all the press seemed to be about Brazil and Argentina.

[Huckleberry]

Originally Posted by cartman

Ecuador has been the pleasant surprise of the tournament to me so far. Granted, I didn't pay much attention to South American qualifying, but all the press seemed to be about Brazil and Argentina.

Historically CONMEBOL has been overrated once you get past the big two, IMO. Ecuador's run is indeed surprising.

[MrBug708]

Question here.

What if all 4 teams finished with a 1-1 tie with each other in group play?

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Question here.

What if all 4 teams finished with a 1-1 tie with each other in group play?

After chatting with Celeval about it, research showed that the official regulations are:

a) greatest number of points obtained in all group matches;
b) goal difference in all group matches;
c) greatest number of goals scored in all group matches;
d) greatest number of points obtained in the group matches between
the teams concerned;
e) goal difference resulting from the group matches between the
teams concerned;
f) greater number of goals scored in all group matches between the
teams concerned;
g) drawing of lots by the Organising Committee for the FIFA World Cup™.

Drawing of lots happened at least once before, the last time being in 1990, when Ireland and the Netherlands finished tied for 2nd and 3rd in the group phase. Then it only mattered for who they would play in the second round, but it could decide on who goes through to the next round.

[sovereignstar]

Fox Sports lists the 4th tiebreaker as " Drawing of lots". What the hell does that mean?

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar

Fox Sports lists the 4th tiebreaker as " Drawing of lots". What the hell does that mean?

It means all teams will be written on a piece of paper and stuffed into a plastic ball. They'll be shuffled and the first ball picked up will be the higher ranked team.

[sovereignstar]

Yorke is playing with his jimmy. This can't be a friendly injury.

Do any players wear protection at all?

[daedalus]

And the damn cameraman does a close-up of it. What the fuck?

[daedalus]

I think Sven should be playing 4-5-1 but, if he's staying 4-4-2, I would think playing Carrick as a holding midfielder with Lampard (who seems to look more dangerous than Gerrard at the moment) would be better.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar

Do any players wear protection at all?

Usually not.

[cartman]

wow, that was a complete choke by the English player. Completely unmarked in front of the goal and he puts it wide.

[cartman]

that was an amazing save by the English defender in front of the goal!

[sovereignstar]

Crouch with the great composure.

[Celeval]

Entertaining thus far, especially if you're pulling for T&T. How great would it be for T&T to beat out Sweden to advance?

[daedalus]

No RoboDance[tm] for you!

[daedalus]

Originally Posted by Celeval

Entertaining thus far, especially if you're pulling for T&T. How great would it be for T&T to beat out Sweden to advance?

As an Arsenal fan, wonderful. Less game means less chance for Freddie to get hurted.

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Looked great in their first game - but the 'real' test will be when they come up against a stubborn well organised side, Ukraine looked in disarray at the back and flattered spain to a certain extent.

I'd love to see them do well as they've some great players and can be fantastic to watch.


Home advantage will take Germany to the semi's I reckon - but they lack creativity in midfield outside of Ballack so the first team to mark him out of the game will knock them out imho.


We're always 'overhyped' because of the passion for football here, we 'could' win it - but to be honest it'd be a surprise.

We've some good players and are well organised defensively, but lack a real cutting edge in our attack unless Rooney surprises everyone by coming back fully fit ... I still don't understand why Svein didn't bring along another striker in the squad, if he isn't going to play Walcott then he shouldn't be there (and to be frank the idea of a player who hasn't played a full senior game for his squad playing for England in the world cup doesn't exactly fill me with confidence).

Overall Winner prediction - if the weather cools down a European side will win, probably Spain, Italy or England (heart more than head to include them, but I can't leave them out ) .... if the weather stays hot either Argentina or Brazil will win.

That's exactly what I think of the muppet at half time in the T&T game
SCHWEIN!

[Critch]

Originally Posted by Celeval

Entertaining thus far, especially if you're pulling for T&T. How great would it be for T&T to beat out Sweden to advance?

I'd rather they beat out England to advance

Sweden and Paraguay would be my choice, though. T&T might be a good story, but they are dirty, defensive and spend half the game time-wasting. So I wont be cheering for them to go through.

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

The difference is that Southampton weren't playing at the highest level in the country and aren't considered a 'top' club in that country (which is why I stress he's unplayed at Arsenal).

As such he's untested at the top domestic level - let alone International level (which is the point I was trying to make).

This isn't a 'slur' against Southampton - I'd have stated the same thing if Gareth Barry back when he left Brighton had gone straight into the International squad when he signed for Aston Villa, its not a sensible thing to do imho.


I'd have liked either of those or preferably Ashton if he'd been fit.


If that happens then I'll happily forgive Svein for his inclusion and I'd fully expect to find him starting for Arsenal next season also

Walcott has played against Leicester at the Walkers Stadium - if that's not a true test of the kid's calibre, I don't know what is

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by daedalus

I think Sven should be playing 4-5-1 but, if he's staying 4-4-2, I would think playing Carrick as a holding midfielder with Lampard (who seems to look more dangerous than Gerrard at the moment) would be better.

God no. We need 442, but Svein (as Marc has called him & I think I will follow) needs to make a tough decision: Lampard or Gerrard, with a proper defensive midfielder in the team - we haven't really got one in the squad though...

And for the first time I'm thinking Becks' lack of pace is a major problem, especially when the other team (i.e. T&T) just defend & play set pieces. Right now I think I'd bring on SWP, but as he's not there Aaron Lennon will do.

[Fighter of Foo]

Originally Posted by Critch

I'd rather they beat out England to advance

Sweden and Paraguay would be my choice, though. T&T might be a good story, but they are dirty, defensive and spend half the game time-wasting. So I wont be cheering for them to go through.

Right on cue, the goalie gets booked for time wasting with 43 minutes to go in the game

Lennon and Rooney on...let's see how long it takes for them to get kicked.

[Abe Sargent]

It's smart football by T&T and I can;t fault them for it.

-Anxiety

[Abe Sargent]

In fact, I don;t see why anyone opposes what T&T has been doing at all. In American football, the formula to win playing a high octane offense that outclasses yours is to run teh ball, grind down teh clok, use as much time to take plays as possible, and keep the ball out of the octane's hands. T&T is just using that same strategy.

-Anxiety

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by Anxiety

In fact, I don;t see why anyone opposes what T&T has been doing at all. In American football, the formula to win playing a high octane offense that outclasses yours is to run teh ball, grind down teh clok, use as much time to take plays as possible, and keep the ball out of the octane's hands. T&T is just using that same strategy.

-Anxiety

You're spot on - nothing wrong with it. And I've got a horrible feeling it'll work this evening as well

[daedalus]

Originally Posted by Jari Rantanen's Shorts

God no. We need 442, but Svein (as Marc has called him & I think I will follow) needs to make a tough decision: Lampard or Gerrard, with a proper defensive midfielder in the team - we haven't really got one in the squad though...

Until Rooney is healthy enough to partner Owen, there really isn't anyone worth keeping Gerrard or Lampard on the bench. Whereas, with an actual holding midfielder in there, both can be on the pitch and roam forward.

[Crapshoot]

Wow. T&T have looked at times like the better team. This is impressive.