COVID-19 - Wuhan Coronavirus (a non-political thread, see pg. 36 #1778)

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Edward64

IMO, I don't see it as binary as vaxxers and anti-vaxxers. It's more like

(1) People that have taken the shots
(2) People that will never take the shots
(3) People that have not been approved for the shots or have a good reason not to take them and
(4) Other undecided

It's a waste of time talking about (2). There's not going to be a significant shift unless they are forced or there's a lot of dying happening. And honestly, with the vaccines now, improved therapeutics, and 60+% that have been vaccinated with at least 1 shot ... I don't see the mortality rate coming close to what we experienced last year.

For (3), I would include young kids and also pregnant women. I think there is an understandable pause for them and other conditions.

For (4), this is the challenge. There are plenty of Blacks and Hispanics that haven't gotten the shots. I doubt it is Trump vs Dems, and not access as it's been accessible for the past 2-3 months. My guess is lack of trust in the government and lack of trust in science, doctors etc.

For the population in (2), the Government should not subsidize Covid hospitalization, meds etc. They are on their own/ their own insurance if they get sick. 20% copay will still be a significant amount.

Not sure how much of a shift this (re: the bolded below) will be but do think it'll help some with (4). If and when it's approved for (3) kids < 12 (?), that'll be pretty huge.

For (4) there needs to be a more prominent & sustained education campaign/outreach. I haven't seen any PSA on TV for vaccinations advertised, haven't seen any billboards on it when driving through GA and FL in early July, I didn't see any from the Olympics bits and pieces that I watched etc.

I've read plenty on the internet but its obvious that is not enough. With football season coming up, I want to see prominent current & HOF players pushing this. I want to see WWF and movie stars etc. I am pretty sure there'll be plenty of stars willing to volunteer and networks willing to give some free or discounted time.

FDA is expected to give full approval of Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine next week - MarketWatch

The Food and Drug Administration is expected next week to grant full approval of the COVID-19 vaccine from Pfizer Inc. PFE, -0.16% and partner BioNTech SE BNTX, +5.08%, according to people familiar with the planning, an action that could spur more vaccination requirements by employers and encourage more people who are hesitant to get vaccinated.

The two-dose shot was first cleared in December by the agency on an emergency use basis for people 16 years and older. The emergency designation allows for products to be distributed during public-health crises based on the best available evidence.

Opponents of mandatory vaccinations have cited the emergency approval as grounds for not requiring inoculations, so full approval is expected to lead more businesses and institutions to require mandatory vaccinations.

[henry296]

I've seen plenty of PSAs on sport broadcasts. There is definitely an MLB one with Dave Winfield and the NBA did some with Bill Russell.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Atocep

My wife spoke to a patient today that wanted a test because, "I got my shots, but my daughter wants me to take the medicine Trump took".

I don't even know what the hell that means.

This turned out to be the monoclonal antibody treatment. For some reason UW medicine started getting a spike in these calls yesterday and my wife has had several ask for the "medicine Trump got" and nearly all of them haven't tested positive and aren't showing any symptoms.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by Atocep

This turned out to be the monoclonal antibody treatment. For some reason UW medicine started getting a spike in these calls yesterday and my wife has had several ask for the "medicine Trump got" and nearly all of them haven't tested positive and aren't showing any symptoms.

Given that de Santis is touting it and banking on it (despite it being judged effective early after infection while in reality people will develop symptoms, then get tested, then get really bad, then seek treatment), coverage of that might be the reason. And it would actually likely protect you for a bit i guess, but since it's difficult to produce it's way too rare/expensive to give on a whim. That's the crux with most antiviral treatments unfortunately, most only effective given early but not feasible to give willy nilly to everybody who tests positive.

However, there is also news of new medication developed by Astrazeneca, which essentially works with these antibodies as well, but geared for prevention and holding up longer, geared towards people whose immune system has trouble generating a response (for example due to having to take medication supressing). Isn't there someone here unable to be vaccinated ? Might be an option soonish.

So maybe crossed wires ?

AstraZeneca antibody drug prevents coronavirus symptoms, study shows – POLITICO

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Edward64

For (4) there needs to be a more prominent & sustained education campaign/outreach. I haven't seen any PSA on TV for vaccinations advertised, haven't seen any billboards on it when driving through GA and FL in early July, I didn't see any from the Olympics bits and pieces that I watched etc.

I've read plenty on the internet but its obvious that is not enough. With football season coming up, I want to see prominent current & HOF players pushing this. I want to see WWF and movie stars etc. I am pretty sure there'll be plenty of stars willing to volunteer and networks willing to give some free or discounted time.

FDA is expected to give full approval of Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine next week - MarketWatch

This is where I completely understand the anger of the pro vaxxers. Saying that there needs to be more done to convince people to get vaccinated feels like we are taking responsibility from those who have chosen not to get the vaccine at this point and puts it on people who have been trying to get them to take the vaccine for months. The people who say that they are never taken the vaccine or are undecided (tbh I don't think they are undecided but whatever) have given specific reasons why they are that way. One of the biggest reasons for refusa of the vaccine is everyone keeps telling them to do it. So I don't see why having MORE people telling them to get the shots will work now. Finally, none of that is increasing trust in the government and lack of trust in science, doctors etc. if that was the holdup.

The only thing that will change from last week to next week is that the FDA will have given full approval for Pfizer. I can see that causing one group to change their position from no or undecided to yes. Those that said that they were waiting for FDA full approval if I take them at their word (I don't but) will get the Pfizer vaccine. Maybe those that say they need to do more research. More research will be available. They will search out that information out, consume it and get the vaccine or not.

The only area that I would put on the pro vaccine crowd is to ensure that the when someone decides they want to get the vaccine, they have access to the vaccine ASAP.

[sterlingice]

I think a lot of those people will still petulantly and stubbornly say it was rushed and they're not taking it, even with full FDA approval (and there's even some truth to the idea that it's rushed, however weighed against COVID, etc).

But I think they're also going to have to decide really quick how they want to play "my tribe or my job" in the next couple of months.

SI

[Flasch186]

That’s called moving goal posts which they’re awesome at

There’s someone in this forum that’s been really good at it lately


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by Edward64

If I was single, no one dependent on me etc. I wouldn't mind being "trapped" in covid free Tonga for 18 months. All I need is basic board & lodging though, internet access etc.

But I don't understand why she hasn't be repatriated back to UK by now (I can understand China not wanting her back yet). It sounds like she isn't trying hard enough.

Nice problem to have being "stuck".

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/b...nga/index.html

FWIW Zoe was my guide for my North Korea trip. Spent 10 days/evenings playing drinking games with her in various North Korean locations. Surprisingly enough none of the articles she has been featured in seem to mention she is a DPRK guide!

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by AlexB

FWIW Zoe was my guide for my North Korea trip. Spent 10 days/evenings playing drinking games with her in various North Korean locations. Surprisingly enough none of the articles she has been featured in seem to mention she is a DPRK guide!

Wait? You went on a North Korea trip? Is there like a separate thread about this or somewhere you posted about it online because I suspect it's pretty interesting

SI

[AlexB]

It was very interesting, but very uncomfortable too in many ways. I thought I mentioned it a couple of years back.

I don’t do social media any more, but Instagram’s probably the easiest way to see some of what I saw - alexbennett73

[Edward64]

Wow. That is pretty interesting.

Tell us some stories about NK and your drinking games! They say what you see is all staged but any insights? I didn't list NK in my bucket list but wouldn't mind the experience.

[AlexB]

It is completely staged, but they can’t stage the bits when your driving between places. From what I saw, as a general rule, if you live in Pyongyang life is not too bad (comparatively), but if you live in the countryside life is pretty horrific. I’ve never seen so much land as arable fields, but with so much manual labour and equipment that is so outdated even I could see it.

[sterlingice]

Wearable Air Purifiers, you say, Mr. Spambot?



SI

[JPhillips]

Jesse Jackson and his wife are both reported to be hospitalized with COVID.

[CrimsonFox]

Tennessee radio host who criticised vaccine efforts dies of Covid-19 | Tennessee | The Guardian

That's a shame...

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

Tennessee radio host who criticised vaccine efforts dies of Covid-19 | Tennessee | The Guardian

That's a shame...

The real shame is that no matter how many of these guys die, it will not move the needle on the anti-vaccers or Covid deniers.

[Ksyrup]

New one! And now one of my favorites. Sweet jam.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

New one! And now one of my favorites. Sweet jam.

"Sir, your time has expired"

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

The real shame is that no matter how many of these guys die, it will not move the needle on the anti-vaccers or Covid deniers.

Nothing does. Literally nothing.

I'm in a discussion on another board with an anti-vaxxer and no matter how you refute the evidence they present or use their own rationale to take down their claims nothing changes.

"A German physician looked under a microscope at the blood of vaccinated people and made startling discoveries" - physicians aren't lab techs and aren't trained to analyze blood samples.

"The guy that invented mRNA technology has spoken out against the vaccine" - He played a role in the discovery of the technology but had nothing to do with the development of the vaccines. He also combines conspiracy, speculation, and his medical knowledge in dangerous ways. If you want to use him as a expert in vaccines we can count the number of vaccine experts that are for and against the vaccines and see who comes out on top.

"Dr. Jane Ruby broke down a study that showed the vaccines contain graphene oxide" - The study was a Spanish study that wasn't published in a scientific journal and wasn't peer reviewed. She's also a self described "health economist and political pundit, and has a doctorate in Psychology.

It doesn't matter. At all. They just move from one claim to the next with no regard for anything that's been shot down and everyone with an opinion that supports their beliefs carries more weight than the thousands that are legitimate experts in their field that say otherwise.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

The real shame is that no matter how many of these guys die, it will not move the needle on the anti-vaccers or Covid deniers.

Maybe because this is the result they want?

[albionmoonlight]

The knowledge is out there. At this point, engaging the deniers is just giving them the attention that their parents never gave them.

Our priorities should be

(1) Opening it up for everyone (i.e. < 12)
(2) Increasing access to people domestically who want it but lack resources/access (mainly poor and minority)
(3) Making sure we have a booster supply
(4) Getting shots out to the rest of the world

We don't have the bandwidth to do everything. And it is an inefficient use of resources to try and talk sense to people who are taking horse medicine b/c Dr. Facebook told them to.

Don't deny them vaccines or medical care. But stop talking to them.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Nothing does. Literally nothing.

I'm in a discussion on another board with an anti-vaxxer and no matter how you refute the evidence they present or use their own rationale to take down their claims nothing changes.

"A German physician looked under a microscope at the blood of vaccinated people and made startling discoveries" - physicians aren't lab techs and aren't trained to analyze blood samples.

"The guy that invented mRNA technology has spoken out against the vaccine" - He played a role in the discovery of the technology but had nothing to do with the development of the vaccines. He also combines conspiracy, speculation, and his medical knowledge in dangerous ways. If you want to use him as a expert in vaccines we can count the number of vaccine experts that are for and against the vaccines and see who comes out on top.

"Dr. Jane Ruby broke down a study that showed the vaccines contain graphene oxide" - The study was a Spanish study that wasn't published in a scientific journal and wasn't peer reviewed. She's also a self described "health economist and political pundit, and has a doctorate in Psychology.

It doesn't matter. At all. They just move from one claim to the next with no regard for anything that's been shot down and everyone with an opinion that supports their beliefs carries more weight than the thousands that are legitimate experts in their field that say otherwise.

Yeah, it's crazy. And they just get warped. There's a german former microbiologist (specializing in bacteria) who literally came out saying "the vaccines are a holocaust" and other crazy shit and this guy on another board still thinks he can mine nuggets of wisdom from his 'scientific' takes and "ignore the noise". And the same guy would go on and on about how mainstream scientists have a financial incentive here and ignores how all these contrarians have books, offer seminars, speak on monetized channels etc. And are associated with other crazy fringe people (and not just Covid fringe, but also homophobic, racist etc). It'd be hella fascinating if it wasn't so damaging.

Also, crazy fun story about that self-styled "inventor of mRNA as a drug" (Robert Malone, right ?):

His wife Jill Glasspool Malone, who writes all his bio on the website and linkedin, got banned from editing on Wikipedia for editing his entry adding in text naming him as the key figure. How do we know it was his wife ? The username (registered since before Covid) was glasspool1. And all her edits from 2021 were to add in stuff about Robert in RNA entries (general and vaccine). I kid you not.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by whomario

Yeah, it's crazy. And they just get warped. There's a german former microbiologist (specializing in bacteria) who literally came out saying "the vaccines are a holocaust" and other crazy shit and this guy on another board still thinks he can mine nuggets of wisdom from his 'scientific' takes and "ignore the noise". And the same guy would go on and on about how mainstream scientists have a financial incentive here and ignores how all these contrarians have books, offer seminars, speak on monetized channels etc. And are associated with other crazy fringe people (and not just Covid fringe, but also homophobic, racist etc). It'd be hella fascinating if it wasn't so damaging.

Also, crazy fun story about that self-styled "inventor of mRNA as a drug" (Rober Malone, right ?):

His wife Jill Glasspool Malone, who writes all his bio on the website and linkedin, got banned from editing on Wikipedia for editing his entry adding in text naming him as the key figure. How do we know it was his wife ? The username (registered since before Covid) was glasspool1. And all her edits from 2021 were to add in stuff about Robert in RNA entries (general and vaccine). I kid you not.

Yeah Malone is the notch in the anti-vaxxer belt. When you do a bit of research on him he sounds like an asshole, constant contrarian, and a guy that's bitter history isn't giving him more credit for mRNA vaccines.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Yeah Malone is the notch in the anti-vaxxer belt. When you do a bit of research on him he sounds like an asshole, constant contrarian, and a guy that's bitter history isn't giving him more credit for mRNA vaccines.

It's between him and Michael Yeadon (who up till 2011 worked for Pfizer, on asthma medication i think) for the "yeah, but even he says it and he must know !" category.

[NobodyHere]

Supporters at Alabama rally boo Trump after he tells them to get vaccinated | TheHill

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Supporters at Alabama rally boo Trump after he tells them to get vaccinated | TheHill

They knew their lines. Look how quickly he took it back and laughed.

He gets to say that he told his supporters to get vaxxed. But he's winking to them the whole time.

(All that said, it isn't like the Russian anti-vax propaganda stopped with Trump leaving office, so I do think that there are now MAGA who are anti-vax independent of Trump telling them what to do).

[albionmoonlight]

dola:

That said, if Trump came out hard pro-vaccine, it would move the needle (pun intended).

If he started calling it the Trump vaccine and making fun of GOP pols who are against it, he could turn the tide.

But he like the carnage.

[albionmoonlight]

USA Today-Ipsos poll:

Americans 72%-28% called mask mandates "a matter of health and safety," not an infringement on personal liberty

Americans 61%-39% endorsed requiring vaccinations except for those with a medical or religious exemption

— Kyle Griffin (@kylegriffin1) August 23, 2021

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

They knew their lines. Look how quickly he took it back and laughed.

He gets to say that he told his supporters to get vaxxed. But he's winking to them the whole time.

(All that said, it isn't like the Russian anti-vax propaganda stopped with Trump leaving office, so I do think that there are now MAGA who are anti-vax independent of Trump telling them what to do).

This is why I said he was a Rorschach President - if you wanted to pretend he was being truthful, you could see whatever you wanted to see from him. He'd say one thing one day and then completely contradict himself the next day. If you watched it with a critical eye, you could usually tell what he was actually thinking and what he was going to do - but he'd say everything across the spectrum to be covered. Sure, he'd say "good people on both sides" so the white supremacists knew he was on their side but then he'd recite his lines saying he was against them. To his supporters, it didn't matter that it was much later or that he said them like a child being told to apologize to his sister - "see? he's against them! i'm definitely not supporting a horrible racist".

SI

[Flasch186]

BS would say that Trump meant what he said and then immediately meant what he said right after because, you know, he said it so you can't know if he was lying you have to take him for his word(s) and he just meant it, so he meant it.

[Ghost Econ]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

USA Today-Ipsos poll:

Americans 72%-28% called mask mandates "a matter of health and safety," not an infringement on personal liberty

Americans 61%-39% endorsed requiring vaccinations except for those with a medical or religious exemption

— Kyle Griffin (@kylegriffin1) August 23, 2021

That they give religious and medical the same weight is why we're in this mess.

[albionmoonlight]

Full approval granted to Pfizer, as expected.

I don't think that this will get a lot of people off the fence. But it will hopefully give employers, etc. more courage to mandate vaccines now that they are no longer "experimental."

[albionmoonlight]

Oh, and take your well deserved 10 minute coffee break, FDA. And then get on approving it for < 12.

[whomario]

Watch the crazies make a big deal out of it being only full approval 16 and up, but not 12-15 ...

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Oh, and take your well deserved 10 minute coffee break, FDA. And then get on approving it for < 12.

There simply isn't anything to aprove yet as the respective Phase 3 studies are not yet finished yet for either Pfizer (likely finished a tad sooner) nor Moderna. There literally is no application on the table yet to approve. As frustrating as it is and as unlikely it is to make a difference, the procedures (the most crucial is a clinical trial) are in place the way they are and it is just not realistic to expect those to be ignored, even if one does not agree with them.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by whomario

Watch the crazies make a big deal out of it being only full approval 16 and up, but not 12-15 ...



There simply isn't anything to aprove yet as the studies are not yet finished/at the targeted 'end point'. There literally is no application on the table yet to approve. As frustrating as it is and as unlikely it is to make a difference, the procedures (the most crucial is a clinical trial) are in place for a reason.

I still think that the FDA and the companies are working closely together. If there is a method to get things to the FDA faster, they can communicate that to the companies. It isn't like they are waking up every day to check the mail, seeing if the application has come in.

And if the wait is 100% for science/procedures, then OK. But if there is any politics/bureaucracy holding it up (like someone here suggested that they are slow-rolling <12 approval b/c they don't want the numbers of people taking it to look bad), then that needs to be eliminated yesterday.

[kingfc22]

FDA approved aka Let’s Move the Goal Posts day! I have a few ideas but curious to see which one gets the most run.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Full approval granted to Pfizer, as expected.

I don't think that this will get a lot of people off the fence. But it will hopefully give employers, etc. more courage to mandate vaccines now that they are no longer "experimental."

My wife says her workplace was likely waiting on the full approval to make it "mandatory". She works with a high risk population, with people doing home visits. They 100% should have it.

This could cause a calamitous shortage in health care workers, from what I'm hearing. Other employers who have made it mandatory are driving people to apply to other companies that haven't made it mandatory yet, but are likely to in short order. We'll see though.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Full approval granted to Pfizer, as expected.

I don't think that this will get a lot of people off the fence. But it will hopefully give employers, etc. more courage to mandate vaccines now that they are no longer "experimental."

Exactly, the "skeptics" will just move onto another talking point. However, I think, as I said before, it means some people will have to start playing "my tribe or my job", which should get more shots in arms. We'll see how deep those convictions are when livelihood is on the line. Being petulant doesn't put food on the table but if it defines so much else of their worldview, I don't know what wins (I think "job" but I'm not certain).

SI

[Butter]

I think most will end up getting the shot but will blame Biden and the Dems for "forcing" them to. More holocaust references incoming

[albionmoonlight]

"I'm just here so I don't get fired."

OK. Fine. That's a rational choice. I do things every day that I'd rather not do so I don't get fired. And, there are some things that I'd choose to get fired rather than do.

So while people will try and make this into a huge thing. It's kind of just one of the choices we all make every day.

[albionmoonlight]

Pentagon says it is preparing to make the Pfizer vaccine mandatory for troops now that the FDA has approved it.

— Idrees Ali (@idreesali114) August 23, 2021

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Pentagon says it is preparing to make the Pfizer vaccine mandatory for troops now that the FDA has approved it.

— Idrees Ali (@idreesali114) August 23, 2021

Our hospital started prepping for this a couple of weeks ago. They plan since then was to be ready to move forward with troop vaccinations on 7 September.

[JPhillips]

Fox is already "just asking questions" as to whether or not the approval process was rushed for political reasons.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Fox is already "just asking questions" as to whether or not the approval process was rushed for political reasons.

Whereas creating and producing it with warp speed was presumably fine. Also, it does feel stupid considering they were asking the same sort of questions anyway and over 60% of the country (and more among eligible) took it already. True, that goes down to 30-40% of their audience i guess, but it is still weird. If you think it should not have been approved now you 100% also think it should not have gotten emergency approval.

[albionmoonlight]

We really need to stop focusing on convincing people.

We really need to start focusing on encouraging employers to mandate it.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

That said, if Trump came out hard pro-vaccine, it would move the needle (pun intended).

If he started calling it the Trump vaccine and making fun of GOP pols who are against it, he could turn the tide.

But he like the carnage.

I don't think so. We assume Trump controls his supporters but he's gotten popular by taking the populist message in that base (racism, conspiracies, etc).

Today he has already backtracked and is selling an anti-vax t-shirt (you do have to donate $45!).

[Ghost Econ]

So the SC Health Department release stats on COVID breakthroughs. It basically boils down to, in a stadium of 75,000:
All unvaccinated: 1,500 would die.
All vaccinated: 3 would die.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by Ghost Econ

So the SC Health Department release stats on COVID breakthroughs. It basically boils down to, in a stadium of 75,000:
All unvaccinated: 1,500 would die.
All vaccinated: 3 would die.

Yeah, it's insane. Orgeon has twice as many people hospitalised right now than they had to treat despite being double vaxed, period. In the UK 3% of Over 50s are unvaccinated since the end of june and make up 38% of deaths in that time frame in that age group. (At about 93,94% the vaccinated will make up a majority, albeit at very low levels).

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I don't think so. We assume Trump controls his supporters but he's gotten popular by taking the populist message in that base (racism, conspiracies, etc).

Today he has already backtracked and is selling an anti-vax t-shirt (you do have to donate $45!).

I was curious about this so I went to his site (and did not find it).

Apparently, his new slogan, apparently, is "Save America". But at least a third of the items on his site have "Don't blame me, I voted for Trump" or something like it on them. They do really get the context of "Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos" - actually, I know the answer to that. Don't get and don't care are two different things.

SI

[Butter]

Originally Posted by Butter

My wife says her workplace was likely waiting on the full approval to make it "mandatory". She works with a high risk population, with people doing home visits. They 100% should have it.

This could cause a calamitous shortage in health care workers, from what I'm hearing. Other employers who have made it mandatory are driving people to apply to other companies that haven't made it mandatory yet, but are likely to in short order. We'll see though.

Update, they already issued the mandate today. Imagine those will be coming fast and furious.