The OFFICIAL NHL 2009-10 Offseason Thread

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by samifan24

Wow what else can go wrong this off-season in Chicago?

I dunno but it's a mess. Hossa said something about them tacking years on regarding retirement which was absurd of him, and unlike the Wings deals with Z and Franzen, his money decreases quite a bit for the last 3 years. Also his deal takes him to 42, while Z's takes him just to 40 and Franzen to 39 IIRC.

It seems like Chicago might be in deep once again though.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

I dunno but it's a mess. Hossa said something about them tacking years on regarding retirement which was absurd of him, and unlike the Wings deals with Z and Franzen, his money decreases quite a bit for the last 3 years. Also his deal takes him to 42, while Z's takes him just to 40 and Franzen to 39 IIRC.

It seems like Chicago might be in deep once again though.

Interesting stuff.

[Sublime 2]

sami, any new news on the Kessel/B's talks? Are they really just hoping he gets an offer sheet and they can rake in some picks?

[sterlingice]

Ok, I don't get it. What did Chicago do wrong? (Other than an absurdly long contract)

Also, why do teams think these players are all going to retire? In the NFL, there are less veteran guys but that is because they are released so they are no longer getting paid. Lots of MLB and NBA players hang on way too long as, strangely enough, getting paid more in a year than we do in a lifetime is a good incentive to put up with crap for another year.

SI

[Draft Dodger]

shouldn't they fine the Flyers too? even if they fucked up the contract, it was clear they were attempting to do the same thing

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

shouldn't they fine the Flyers too? even if they fucked up the contract, it was clear they were attempting to do the same thing

Unless Chicago said to Hossa specifically about retirement during contract talks, I can't see how the NHL has any case. It's a loop hole that is being exposed, but it is within the rules of the CBA.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Two words: Grand. Rapids.

If I recall correctly, I think the Winds signed Delmore a few years back to be a depth guy in Grand Rapids, but then he bolted for Europe.

The Wings signed him for the same reason they signed Kris Newberry. They just need some veteran depth guys in Grand Rapids to fill out the roster, help the younger kids, etc.

The only way Andy Delmore sees time in the NHL is if things go horribly awry or there is a plague of injuries.

I actually thought about this after I posted. Makes sense that the Wings would pick up a few veterans for GR, considering that Ericsson will be up with the big club this year, and Kindl can't be too far behind.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Unless Chicago said to Hossa specifically about retirement during contract talks, I can't see how the NHL has any case. It's a loop hole that is being exposed, but it is within the rules of the CBA.

Even if they did discuss it, does the CBA specifically address this issue? They're obviously going against the spirit of the rules, but I don't see how you can fine a team or strip them of draft picks just because they exploited a pretty obvious loophole.

[Dr. Sak]

I know there is something in the CBA about how much a year by year salary can decrease, but that's about all.

[samifan24]

Originally Posted by Sublime 2

sami, any new news on the Kessel/B's talks? Are they really just hoping he gets an offer sheet and they can rake in some picks?

I heard that all was quiet on the Kessel front and that the Bruins would likely have to deal either Bergeron or Kobasew to make room for any Kessel contract because they signed Morris to a ridiculous 3.3M deal.

I think Kessel realizes he will be in Boston or not playing barring a trade. I really doubt a team will sign him to an offer sheet at this point in the off-season.

[samifan24]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Ok, I don't get it. What did Chicago do wrong? (Other than an absurdly long contract)

1) Really long contract that possibly violates the CBA
2) Didn't give Hossa a physical before signing him to said contract
3) Tallon or one of his Asst GMs botched the mailing of the RFA offers, a major embarrassment to the organization

Those are three major gaffes by an organization, let alone in the same off-season.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by samifan24

1) Really long contract that possibly violates the CBA
2) Didn't give Hossa a physical before signing him to said contract
3) Tallon or one of his Asst GMs botched the mailing of the RFA offers, a major embarrassment to the organization

Those are three major gaffes by an organization, let alone in the same off-season.

No, I get the other boneheaded moves. But what is possibly illegal about the contract- that's the part I'm not getting

SI

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by samifan24

I think Kessel realizes he will be in Boston or not playing barring a trade. I really doubt a team will sign him to an offer sheet at this point in the off-season.

There is always the KHL.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

No, I get the other boneheaded moves. But what is possibly illegal about the contract- that's the part I'm not getting

SI

Right because all contracts have to be sent to the league before they are official. So you'd think the NHL Brass would've caught any issues.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by samifan24

1) Really long contract that possibly violates the CBA
2) Didn't give Hossa a physical before signing him to said contract
3) Tallon or one of his Asst GMs botched the mailing of the RFA offers, a major embarrassment to the organization

Those are three major gaffes by an organization, let alone in the same off-season.

According to one story Tallon has been marked man ever since he agreed to a Nylander for Khabibulin trade in December which was vetoed by ownership.

[DeToxRox]

What is hurting Chicago is Hossa came out and said basically extra years were tacked on to help the cap # go down so he can retire before the deal ends. He said something to this effect which is probably the start of this.

Also he makes 3.5 million over the final 3 years. Off hand I believe Zetterberg makes 12 mil or so the last year years. The other thing is because his deal takes him to 42 when forwards almost never play into their 40's makes it suspect I guess, while neither Detroit deal takes a player past 40.

The problem for Chicago is it seems very obvious the player will retire before the end of the deal because Hossa will have been paid most of his money before 40 so what's his reason for continuing to play?

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

The problem for Chicago is it seems very obvious the player will retire before the end of the deal because Hossa will have been paid most of his money before 40 so what's his reason for continuing to play?

He'll still be chasing the Cup at age 40 after having played for the runner-up 12 years in a row. Poor Marian.

[samifan24]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

There is always the KHL.

The KHL = where the Flyers go for starting goaltending.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Right because all contracts have to be sent to the league before they are official. So you'd think the NHL Brass would've caught any issues.

Exactly. They're investigating something that they themselves approved just a few weeks ago.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Exactly. They're investigating something that they themselves approved just a few weeks ago.

Maybe the NHL passed it along to the Flyers lawyers?

[Suburban Rhythm]

Sak and I discused this a little already...and I am sure which side of the argument each of us was on.

The Hockey News: Backchecking: Backchecking: Clarke continues legacy in front office

The Flyers have consistently been a tough team to play against throughout its history, owning the NHL’s second-best all-time winning percentage behind the Montreal Canadiens. Clarke attributes that to the tremendous support of owner Ed Snider.

“We were allowed to spend the money, we always tried to win,” Clarke said. “We didn’t do what Pittsburgh did; lose seven years in a row so they could get good. They did it twice, in fact. They went through six or seven different owners. We’ve had one owner.”

Clarke finds the strategies of some current teams appalling when considering the way other organizations have built competitive teams.

“It’s somewhat embarrassing that three of the last teams (in the 2009 playoffs) missed the playoffs six or seven years in a row; Washington, Chicago, and Pittsburgh,” he said. “Now they’re good and the teams that try to win all the time get penalized. Our philosophy has never changed since 1967.”

[RomaGoth]

For Wings fans, an interesting write up of their top prospects:

http://babcocksdeathstare.wordpress....pect-rankings/

[Honolulu_Blue]

No Hossa, Hudler, Samuelsson, or Kopecky? No worries. Patrick Eaves will more than make up for their defections.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=286737

The Detroit Red Wings signed free agent forward Patrick Eaves to a one-year contract on Tuesday, financial details were not disclosed.

Over his 74 games with the Carolina Hurricanes in 2008/09, the 25-year-old scored six goals with eight assists and a plus-7 rating. Eaves has played in 242 career NHL games and has score 45 goals and added 45 assists.

He was originally selected in the first round (29th overall) by the Ottawa Senators in the 2003 Entry Draft.

Of all the available (and realisitc) options out there, I'm fine with this. There were many worse options out there.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

No Hossa, Hudler, Samuelsson, or Kopecky? No worries. Patrick Eaves will more than make up for their defections.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=286737

The Detroit Red Wings signed free agent forward Patrick Eaves to a one-year contract on Tuesday, financial details were not disclosed.

Over his 74 games with the Carolina Hurricanes in 2008/09, the 25-year-old scored six goals with eight assists and a plus-7 rating. Eaves has played in 242 career NHL games and has score 45 goals and added 45 assists.

He was originally selected in the first round (29th overall) by the Ottawa Senators in the 2003 Entry Draft.

Of all the available (and realisitc) options out there, I'm fine with this. There were many worse options out there.

The Wings have been very good at picking up guys off the scrap heap and turning them into useful players too. See: Dan Cleary, Mikael Samuelsson, etc..

Not a bad move for them.

[RomaGoth]

Dola

Arbitration awarded to Hudler. No way he will take it considering what he is going to make in the KHL.

Jiri Hudler to get $5.75M from Detroit Red Wings if he returns - ESPN

Also, looks like the douche Roenick is finally quitting.

Jeremy Roenick reportedly will announce retirement Thursday - ESPN

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

Jeremy Roenick reportedly will announce retirement Thursday - ESPN

As the last memory of Toronto's last playoff game is gone...

[Suburban Rhythm]

As expected, Rangers walk away from Zherdev's arbitration award of $3.9M. Hello KHL.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

As the last memory of Toronto's last playoff game is gone...

Amazing how young Roenick looks there.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Suburban Rhythm

As expected, Rangers walk away from Zherdev's arbitration award of $3.9M. Hello KHL.

New York Rangers make Nikolai Zherdev a free agent after turning down arbitration decision - ESPN

Not sure how a sane arbitrator thinks that a player is worth nearly 4 million with a whopping 58 point season. When did subpar point totals become acceptable in the NHL?

In any case, say hello to Hudler for us, Zherdev.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

New York Rangers make Nikolai Zherdev a free agent after turning down arbitration decision - ESPN

Not sure how a sane arbitrator thinks that a player is worth nearly 4 million with a whopping 58 point season. When did subpar point totals become acceptable in the NHL?

In any case, say hello to Hudler for us, Zherdev.

About 3/4 of a point per game? $4 M doesn't sound unreasonable to me. Stars (point per game types) are getting $6 M and much more.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

New York Rangers make Nikolai Zherdev a free agent after turning down arbitration decision - ESPN

Not sure how a sane arbitrator thinks that a player is worth nearly 4 million with a whopping 58 point season. When did subpar point totals become acceptable in the NHL?

In any case, say hello to Hudler for us, Zherdev.

Zherdev was the leading scorer on the Rangers (excluding Antropov who came over from Toronto at the deadline).

There are a lot players out there making more than what the arbitrator awarded Zherdev who scored fewer goals (23) and fewer total points.

Scott Gomez (same points, fewer goals)
Chris Drury
Dustin Penner
Shawn Horcoff
David Legwand
Ryan Malone
Kristian Huselius
Martin Erat

Those are just a few.

I would walk away from that salary too, but it's really not that far out of line with what similar players are making.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

About 3/4 of a point per game? $4 M doesn't sound unreasonable to me. Stars (point per game types) are getting $6 M and much more.

Perhaps it is just a difference of opinion. I don't see Zherdev as a star, or even close to it. People outside of hockey have no idea who he is, whereas they may be familiar with Gretzky, Zetterberg, Crosby, Lidstrom, Selanne, etc...

I just don't see any justification for 4m/year for 58 points, and obviously the Rangers feel the same way (surprisingly).

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Zherdev was the leading scorer on the Rangers (excluding Antropov who came over from Toronto at the deadline).

There are a lot players out there making more than what the arbitrator awarded Zherdev who scored fewer goals (23) and fewer total points.

Scott Gomez (same points, fewer goals)
Chris Drury
Dustin Penner
Shawn Horcoff
David Legwand
Ryan Malone
Kristian Huselius
Martin Erat

Those are just a few.

I would walk away from that salary too, but it's really not that far out of line with what similar players are making.

Exactly my point. All of these players you named are underachievers/overpaid. This is a lot of what is wrong with pro sports, inflated salaries for mediocre players. Drury, Gomez, and Horcoff may be 2nd line players on some teams, but these others would be 4th liners at best in the "old" NHL. What has Legwand ever done? Malone? Erat? I am not so naive to think that these guys are no good, obviously they have some skill or they would not be playing. But $4m/year is absurd to me. This is one of the reasons the NHL has had so many problems with finances and the CBA. They are trying to pay players on a scale that is comparable with a big sport, like the NFL or MLB, but realistically, the NHL is not a big sport in the U.S., and may never be.

Bottom line - too many overpaid players, congrats to Sather for saying "no" to this one at least.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

Exactly my point.

Not really.

You said:

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

Not sure how a sane arbitrator thinks that a player is worth nearly 4 million with a whopping 58 point season.

And

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

I just don't see any justification for 4m/year for 58 points...

And I provided you the evidence as to how a "sane arbitrator" would think "that a player is worth nearly 4 million with a whopping 58 point season" and the "justification for 4m/year for 58 points."

Arbitrator's look at the player's past performance (Zherdev was coming off two seasons of 20+ goals and 30+ assists) and look at salaries of comparable players. Taking those factors into account, based on the facts, I think a "sane arbitrator" could have easily awarded 4m/year for Zherdev.

I don't think anyone would disagree that there are a lot of over-paid/under achieving players in the NHL (or any of the big professional sports).

NHL salaries are tied directly to league revenues per the CBA. So, the total team salaries really can't be out of whack with what the league is making. If the league makes more money, there is more for the players, if it makes less, there is less. So, there is no issue with the "scale" as to which players are being paid.

There certainly are issues, but that's not really one of them.

What "old" NHL are you referring to where Drury, Gomez and Horcoff would be 4th liners? The Original Six Era?

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Not really.

You said:



And



And I provided you the evidence as to how a "sane arbitrator" would think "that a player is worth nearly 4 million with a whopping 58 point season" and the "justification for 4m/year for 58 points."

Arbitrator's look at the player's past performance (Zherdev was coming off two seasons of 20+ goals and 30+ assists) and look at salaries of comparable players. Taking those factors into account, based on the facts, I think a "sane arbitrator" could have easily awarded 4m/year for Zherdev.

I don't think anyone would disagree that there are a lot of over-paid/under achieving players in the NHL (or any of the big professional sports).

Regardless, I still think $4m/year is absurd.

NHL salaries are tied directly to league revenues per the CBA. So, the total team salaries really can't be out of whack with what the league is making. If the league makes more money, there is more for the players, if it makes less, there is less. So, there is no issue with the "scale" as to which players are being paid.

There certainly are issues, but that's not really one of them.

Ok, makes sense.

What "old" NHL are you referring to where Drury, Gomez and Horcoff would be 4th liners? The Original Six Era?

Actually, what I said was...

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

Drury, Gomez, and Horcoff may be 2nd line players on some teams, but these others would be 4th liners at best in the "old" NHL.

...and I am referring to the "old" NHL of the '70's & '80's, the hockey I grew up watching.

[RomaGoth]

Shanahan back to the Devils?

NHL.com - 2009 NHL Offseason News: Report: Shanahan returns to Devils - 08/05/2009

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

Perhaps it is just a difference of opinion. I don't see Zherdev as a star, or even close to it. People outside of hockey have no idea who he is, whereas they may be familiar with Gretzky, Zetterberg, Crosby, Lidstrom, Selanne, etc...

I just don't see any justification for 4m/year for 58 points, and obviously the Rangers feel the same way (surprisingly).

Not sure why people outside of hockey would need to know about Zherdev for him to get paid market rate. As HB noted, his salary seems about in line with the current market..

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Not sure why people outside of hockey would need to know about Zherdev for him to get paid market rate. As HB noted, his salary seems about in line with the current market..

I agree it is in line with the current market. My point is that the market is over-inflated in the first place.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

I agree it is in line with the current market. My point is that the market is over-inflated in the first place.

The market is always going to be a bit over inflated for certain guys. Bad contracts for under achieving players isn't a new phenomonen or something that sprung out of the CBA. Go back and look at some of those massive contracts that were bought out after the strike. The CBA is far from perfect, but, if anything, it at least made it so more of these kinds of mistakes were based on teams misjudging potential (e.g., Penner) as opposed to giving loads of cash to guys past their prime (e.g., Turgeon).

[samifan24]

Someone mentioned Shawn Horcoff. Let me just say that I never understood how he was considered Edmonton's #1 center. Wouldn't he be a #3 grinding line center on most other teams?

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Not sure why people outside of hockey would need to know about Zherdev for him to get paid market rate. As HB noted, his salary seems about in line with the current market..

I would say it definitely isn't in line with the current market, considering Sather would have loved to ship Zherdev's rights away for a pick, and any team who thought they would need to pay $3.9MM+ in the open market would have jumped at the chance to secure him at that price.

[Travis]

Originally Posted by samifan24

Someone mentioned Shawn Horcoff. Let me just say that I never understood how he was considered Edmonton's #1 center. Wouldn't he be a #3 grinding line center on most other teams?

There's a pretty good divide even in Edmonton on this one. The real blame lies with MacT/Lowe for the contract they gave him (Lowe) and the man love/role push that MacT implemented.

Imho he's a good 2nd line center or an excellent third liner with his talent/skill set. For the right price and the proper amount of minutes a game he'd be a nice player to keep around. Unfortunately, at least salary wise, that's not happening any time soon.

I'm hoping with a new coaching staff that we'll see some open competition for the first line spot (as I think O'Sullivan could win that job), but given the contract that is now in place and how hard it'll be to move him, he's going to be a very expensive and unmovable roster piece. Will be interesting to see what they do with him this season, scary what they might have to do in 2-3 years when he's not even the player he is now.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by samifan24

Someone mentioned Shawn Horcoff. Let me just say that I never understood how he was considered Edmonton's #1 center. Wouldn't he be a #3 grinding line center on most other teams?

This is kind of what I am alluding to. While I named Horcoff as a 2nd liner on most teams, that is more of a reflection on the current state of the NHL than on his talent. Many of today's 1st and 2nd liners would be 3rd and 4th line players twenty years ago, or even now if the NHL wasn't so convoluted with teams/players that should not be in the NHL.

[Suburban Rhythm]

I think you are remembering the league 20 years ago as better than it was.

Look at a team like Boston, who won the Presidents trophy, and lost in the finals the 89-90 season.

Their top center, arguably, was Craig Janney. CRAIG JANNEY!

Washington made it to the ECF with Michal Pivonka.

Look at Quebec's roster outside of Sakic.

Gomez is inferior to those guys?

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Suburban Rhythm

I think you are remembering the league 20 years ago as better than it was.

Look at a team like Boston, who won the Presidents trophy, and lost in the finals the 89-90 season.

Their top center, arguably, was Craig Janney. CRAIG JANNEY!

Washington made it to the ECF with Michal Pivonka.

Look at Quebec's roster outside of Sakic.

Gomez is inferior to those guys?

You could be right. Maybe I just miss being younger?

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Logan

I would say it definitely isn't in line with the current market, considering Sather would have loved to ship Zherdev's rights away for a pick, and any team who thought they would need to pay $3.9MM+ in the open market would have jumped at the chance to secure him at that price.

Market as determined by currently paid salaries of similar players as precedent.

Obviously, the deflated market as a result of economic conditions and the presumption of a falling cap next year doesn't quite fit with Zherdev's market going forward. But an arbitrator's job isn't to determine what market conditions will be, just what is the fairest price for the player in question, given his options (the team's offer versus the player's offer), and the only evidence he has to go on is comparable players' salaries.

And those salaries were all received in the market, so, given the information he has available to him, the arbitrator did indeed elect to give Zherdev the salary that the market--thus far--has borne for a player of his level of ability.

[Logan]

You know that the Rangers offered $3.25M and Zherdev demanded $4.75M right? The end result we saw is what we see in 95% of NHL arbitration cases.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Logan

You know that the Rangers offered $3.25M and Zherdev demanded $4.75M right? The end result we saw is what we see in 95% of NHL arbitration cases.

I guess in the NHL, they have the option to split the difference. Regardless, looks like the Rangers lowballed and Zherdev's agent aimed too high, and, surprise, surprise, split the difference and it about meets the market price for a comparable player to that point.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Not sure about this. He didn't seem to get along too well with Babcock and just wasn't the same after getting destroyed by Raffi Torres. Well, with the money available and the players out there, so be it...


Red Wings sign Jason Williams to one-year deal - MLive.com


DETROIT -- The Detroit Red Wings are bringing back a familiar face.
The team signed free agent forward Jason Williams to a one-year contract on Thursday.


Williams, 28, originally was signed by Detroit in 2000, but traded in 2007 as part of the Kyle Calder deal. In 233 games with the Red Wings, he had 49 goals and 67 assists. His best season with Detroit came in '05-06, when he set career highs with 21 goals, 37 assists and 58 points.
Williams (5-foot-11, 185 pounds) has solid offensive skills and can play the point on the power play.


Williams spent last season with the Atlanta Thrashers and Columbus Blue Jackets, and finished with 19 goals and 28 assists.


In 376 career NHL games, Williams has 205 points (85 goals, 120 assists).


He also played 128 games for the Cincinnati Mighty Ducks of the American Hockey League in '00-01 and '01-02 under the direction of current Red Wings coach Mike Babcock.

[DeToxRox]

Christ. In re-signing Jason Williams the Wings have managed to bring the hatred from Babcock normally assigned to Hudler, and the horrendous shot selection and turnover proneness from Sammy.

Yeesh.

Oh well.