Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[Flasch186]

That was one of the best matches I've seen.

My kid and I will be front row at fight for the fallen.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SirFozzie]

We're about at the 25th "Should have been 3" move in the Bucks match

[molson]

So Bret Hart presented the AEW world title and then fell off the stage on the way back?

The guy's hard a rough year at live events

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...152/image0.png

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

So Bret Hart presented the AEW world title and then fell off the stage on the way back?

The guy's hard a rough year at live events

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...152/image0.png

Yeah, that was apparently a thing (though it only got Twitter buzz for a couple minutes at most, so I was starting to doubt it)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Well, there's the 4th guy for the main eventers.

We know he can still promo. Question is: can he still go in the ring (let's be honest, it's been a while since he's done much that wasn't meh).

I genuinely hope so.

[SirFozzie]

I think it's safe to say we have a wrestling war once again.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

I think it's safe to say we have a wrestling war once again.

For a few weeks, maybe .. but then there's the question I just posed on Twitter

I'll quote @strigga and my reply

"AEW is for everyone" isn't a dumb catchphrase, because Double or Nothing proved that for lots of different wrestling styles and performers there's a place on a big stage. I think this show was everything they hoped it to be and I'm excited to be there for something new. #AEWDoN

The question is whether "something for everyone" = "most of the show ISN'T for most people". Or does the show end up with low quarter-hour ratings despite decent cume?

I think that's a completely legit question to consider: can the show hold an audience for two hours, week after week? We've seen TNA quarter hours be very content specific, people would channel surf in a heartbeat. We saw it happen with WCW as well.

Could we end up with a situation where WWE wins the weekly ratings "war" comfortably (and AEW under delivers what Turner has to be hoping for) but AEW generally succeeds for big shows better than WWE?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Aside from the serious questions, the funniest shit all night has probably been watching Sasha Banks trying to get herself fired by tweeting not just interest & praise but even match gifs

Given the state of things right now, her contract may get extended forever

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

This is Dusty's son. He pretty much HAD to do that, for his heritage if nothing else. (though not to that extent, that was some Tommy Wildfire Rich caliber bleeding)

A solid 0.8 Muta, for certain.

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

A solid 0.8 Muta, for certain.

Dola - or has this been renamed the Eddie scale? I really don't keep up with r.s.p-w anymore...

[JonInMiddleGA]

Okay, umm, wow.

Juice Robinson's mystery challenger?

Jon Moxley.

(revealed tonight when Mox tweeted the same promo clip but with his logo at the end)

edit to add: So Jericho vs Okada AND Mox vs Juice for the top two singles titles in NJPW (for those who may not follow such things quite so closely)

[JonInMiddleGA]

And, yes, I'm excited at least by the potential for Moxley to be part of G1

(Tony Khan statement last night mentioned that he's signed for multi-year deal but that he's allowed to make international appearances until TV starts ... so the door would be open based on that)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Catching up on BoSJ. Eagles & ElP have been the real revelations of the tournament, even the building tension/BC stuff between them is pretty good.
They've looked every bit like they belong in NJPW full-time.

I've been less impressed by the lucha newcomers (Bandido has been alright but not the next-big-thing his pop suggests) and honestly additional exposure has me less impressed with Dragon Lee as well.

[RainMaker]

This is weird to see.

Jon Moxley – ジョン・モクスリー | NEW JAPAN PRO-WRESTLING

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

This is weird to see.

Quite.

For (I guess) the benefit of those who don't follow super closely, interesting to note that they're sticking with the original plan (despite the high profile nature of the reveal) and having the match on June 5 at the final night of BoSJ block matches instead of having it June 6 at Dominion which is their 2nd biggest event of the year.

[RainMaker]

Side note. Was listening to the big sports talk station here in Chicago and they were talking about AEW of all things. One host explaining to the other how he watched the show and said wrestling might be getting good again. Both talked about how they might have to get back into wrestling. Was kind of surprised to see people outside the wrestling bubble acknowledge it. But I think they've had CM Punk on the show in the past a few times.

I'm kind of interested in AEW. Really haven't watched much WWE in the past year. Catch some NJPW stuff but not enough to follow thoroughly. It feels like they can be ROH with an owner who is willing to invest in the product.

Still think they're a star or two way. Maybe they'll make one on their own with the talent they have on board. While I think Moxley and Jericho give them some mainstream cred, the game changed would be Punk. If they sign him and have him show up at the show in Chicago, this could be a real race. It would draw a ton of interest in to the show that I believe would be launching a few weeks after that show.

Maybe I'm overrating the importance of Punk these days. Maybe he's old news. But I think him showing up at that show and announcing he's with AEW would be one of the biggest moments in wrestling in some time.

[BYU 14]

Just watched the highlights of AEW. I haven't watched wrestling on a regular basis since ECW folded, but this and the resurgence of the NWA are finally making wrestling interesting again. Would love to see AEW sign the Briscoes to add to the tag roster.

[RainMaker]

Just saw the highlight of Joey Janela landing on his skull.

AS GOD AS MY WITNESS, HE IS BROKEN IN HALF!!

RIP Joey Janela. #AEW #DoubleOrNothing
pic.twitter.com/Rl25MW8tIe

— Golden Maharaja ™ (@KingNj90) May 25, 2019

[Mota]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Maybe I'm overrating the importance of Punk these days. Maybe he's old news. But I think him showing up at that show and announcing he's with AEW would be one of the biggest moments in wrestling in some time.

It would certainly be a huge short term boost, that's for sure. But would they get a CM Punk who still hates wrestling, and is checked out, or would they get a motivated CM Punk who wants to prove people wrong? It would likely mean a huge difference in the long run.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Mota

It would certainly be a huge short term boost, that's for sure. But would they get a CM Punk who still hates wrestling, and is checked out, or would they get a motivated CM Punk who wants to prove people wrong? It would likely mean a huge difference in the long run.

Oddly enough, that's the same question I have about Moxley until I see him in the ring a few times.

[RainMaker]

Moxley went on Jericho's podcast and it was something else. Mostly boils down to saying Vince is out of touch and micromanages everything. One of his lines about the locker room just trying to survive week to week without Vince making them do something to kill their character.

Below is a summary I grabbed from Reddit.

He knew he wanted to leave the company in July 2018 when he was out with an injury

Refused to read a scripted promo because he believed it was idiotic/ridiculous whilst Vince believed it was great

Talks about the promos he read whilst feuding with Seth late last/early this year, and how they made no sense, tried to rewrite them and got frustrated when he couldn't

He talked about enjoying the Make-A-Wish stuff and how he became an adult in WWE

Says he thought him cutting the promo talking about Romans cancer was distasteful

Says he felt like walking out on the Raw where he got shots/vaccinated during a promo, and that was the day he 100% knew he was leaving and not coming back

Vince tried to talk him into saying another cancer remark about Roman, says it was so bad they could have lost sponsors, refused to say it (34 minutes into the podcast)

Says he was excited to return to wrestling when he was injured, but not excited to return to WWE

Says if there was no other promotion other than WWE, he still would have left

Vince "didn't know" he was unhappy, even with Jon/dean being open with his frustrations to Vince about scripts

Was happy to take bumps from Nia, but felt like it was them punishing him for leaving

They offered him a new contract, he didnt look at it

His goal in AEW is to be the best version of himself, looking forward to creative freedom

Says Tony Kahn is the exact opposite of Vince, likes him and the fact hes a huge wrestling fan

Talks about using social media now that hes out of WWE

He told Seth hes a wild animal thats been domesticated for too long when Seth was upset about him leaving (to clarify, he was referring to himself as the wild animal, not Seth) he explained it to Seth as it being the end of Harry and the Hendersons where Harry is set free

Edit: Also, Sick Nick Mondo did the trailer for his return that was posted on twitter when he left WWE

[JonInMiddleGA]

LOL, i pop in here to comment on the Mox on JeriPod and you covered it.

I'm up to the promos thing & he absolutely buries Vince as being to blame for the worst of it (basically by backing the horrendous writing)

edit to add: an exceptionally good 90 minutes and change. And he basically details everything a lot of us already believed about the situation in WWE.

[Flasch186]

AEW made $5mm on PPV Game Changer

[JonInMiddleGA]

Watching NXT Takeover, talking in the batcave about how guys get lost in the shuffle so easily. So I counted.

Raw + Smackdown + NXT + 205 + UK + Performance Center =

180 male wrestlers known under contract

[JonInMiddleGA]

Second Takeover thought: The fans are part of the problem for WWE. You have workers do heel things, be heels, fans still pop for entrances & gimmicks like you're a face. SOME of the bewildering shit that ends up happening IS the fault of the fans.

Third Takeover thought: You had all this time to pick a name for Punishment Martinez and you came up with ... Damian Priest?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Takeover main was a felt-way-too-soon rematch for Cole & Gargano. Turns out to be one of the smartest structured matches I've seen in a long time.

Hard to top their 3 falls encounter but they came about as close as they were going to get given the circumstances for a rematch. Fucking brilliant multiple times, little things and big things.

HUGE respect for the "they get it" factor for both Gargano and Cole.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

HUGE respect for the "they get it" factor for both Gargano and Cole.

And the sad thing is that as soon as they make the main roster, will immediately lose that sense, and the ability to connect with the crowd. Yet they will be blamed for it, and will be told that they are not grabbing the brass ring.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Takeover main was a felt-way-too-soon rematch for Cole & Gargano. Turns out to be one of the smartest structured matches I've seen in a long time.

Hard to top their 3 falls encounter but they came about as close as they were going to get given the circumstances for a rematch. Fucking brilliant multiple times, little things and big things.

HUGE respect for the "they get it" factor for both Gargano and Cole.

Gargano is great at telling a story in the ring. It's a shame he's so small.

I loved the Breeze-Velveteen match too.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Gargano is great at telling a story in the ring. It's a shame he's so small.

I loved the Breeze-Velveteen match too.

Gargano is an amazing face. He is one of the few people that can connect with the fans as a "good guy". Not many wrestlers can do that.

[RainMaker]

Your new IWGP United States Champion!

Kind of weird to watch Moxley wrestle outside of jeans.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Ospreay vs Shingo was a dramatic exercise in two guys pushing the boundaries of not breaking each others necks.

Helluva match (not sure I agree with the booking here in the medium run at least but still a helluva match) but there were several but-by-the-grace-of-God moments in that one.

BoSJ was good for several guys, maybe none moreso IMO than El Phantasmo. Of all the mini-stories told, probably none I enjoyed more overall than what seems like the inevitable redemption of Robbie Eagles. It's not top of the card stuff, it's a simple story, but it's straightforward enough to work for me.

I thought several guys kind of ran in place at best - nature of a tournament format for sure - definitely feel like Gresham and Titan were dazzlingly non-special (but needed to be).

Dominion will be interesting, should get more clarity after it as we head toward the G1.

[JonInMiddleGA]

There aren't words for how big a shit show the WWE has done in Jeddah today.

This has been atrocious and we still have the old-timers main event to go. The booking is just ... wow.

[JonInMiddleGA]

LMAO, it got worse.

[miami_fan]

Has the check from the Kingdom cleared?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Has the check from the Kingdom cleared?

On the whole the fans seem happy enough so the check should be okay.

They're like a sedate domestic crowd or something. Mostly interested in popping for the entrance music and a few catch phrases, hit a few chants (got an NXT for Trips, a CM Punk, a boring), with the bonus of house show fan service from the battle royal.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The main was a predictable affair, a fair debate could be had about whether Hogan ever looked any worse in the ring.

Goldberg appeared to get hardwayed early on, head hit the turnbuckle high & got the corner post instead. (a subsequent jackhammer planted Taker hard on his head, whether botch or receipt I'm not sure)

Finish appeared to be a full on botch with Goldberg falling backwards while attempting a tombstone. Taker looked ... best I can say is disgusted once it was over. A fitting main for a truly craptacular show.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The show was not Heroes of Wrestling bad. We didn't get that far into the abyss.

It wasn't - exactly - as bad as the AAA event with the ancient guys. But here's the difference in this main vs that main.

That main, you watched & wondered if someone was going to literally die from natural causes.

This main, you watched & wondered if someone was going to literally die from either the heat or a botch.

[JonInMiddleGA]

fwiw, on Twitter Goldberg says he was knocked out

Knocked myself out and thought I could finish.... love my fans.....but let u down. Everyone else that found “pleasure” ..... hope ur happy

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

On the whole the fans seem happy enough so the check should be okay.

They're like a sedate domestic crowd or something. Mostly interested in popping for the entrance music and a few catch phrases, hit a few chants (got an NXT for Trips, a CM Punk, a boring), with the bonus of house show fan service from the battle royal.

I guess I don’t understand why they have to bring the current storylines from Raw/Smackdown to the desert. Why not just take the script for the Tribute to the Troops show and customize it for the Saudi crowd? Is that impossible in today’s world?

[JonInMiddleGA]

njpwworld on Twitter: "Jon Moxley wants in the G1 CLIMAX 29!?
Stay tuned to https://t.co/Tj7UBJ4PjP

You can remove the question mark btw, he made a definitive statement.

[JonInMiddleGA]

KENTA !!!

Declares for G1 (after being led to the ring by Shibata)

edit: and maybe one of my favorite tweets of the night
KENTA!
WALTER on Twitter: "KENTA!"

I'm serious about that tweet too. I love the fact that Walter is awake and watching Dominion live, that's just damned cool to me.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I think there's going to be a lot of IWC discussion about the Naito/Ibushi match.

On what appeared to be a wrestler-error type botch (Ibushi clearly turned his head when he shouldn't, at the worst possible second) I honestly thought I'd watched a man die on live TV. Literally nauseated watching. Ibushi could not have missed a broken neck by more than a couple inches or a miracle. And then they followed it with a very strong sequence to the finish. Take the botch away and it was a pretty strong helluva match.

Most of the Twitter-verse watching live went hyper-critical (and IMO overly so) of the amount of head/neck impacts but, aside from that one move, I honestly don't think I saw anything that was excessive in terms of risk (aside from the sheer number perhaps).

[RainMaker]

Great match. Didn't think much of the bump till I saw it on replay. He is incredibly lucky. Don't know how he didn't either break his neck or just get knocked unconscious.

Really looking forward to G1. Some new faces to shake things up.

[Suicane75]

Kind of sad to watch how Ricochet and Ospreay have diverged over the past few years. Ospreay has turned into a legit top tier worker while Ricochet, mainly through the fault of the company he signed with, is sort of just another guy who does flashy moves. This is not a knock on Ric, i still love watching him work, I just worry that he'll be there so long that it'll waste a pivotal growing period that Ospreay has been afforded, and taken every advantage of, in being to grow his character and style.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Kind of sad to watch how Ricochet and Ospreay have diverged over the past few years. Ospreay has turned into a legit top tier worker while Ricochet, mainly through the fault of the company he signed with, is sort of just another guy who does flashy moves. This is not a knock on Ric, i still love watching him work, I just worry that he'll be there so long that it'll waste a pivotal growing period that Ospreay has been afforded, and taken every advantage of, in being to grow his character and style.

I think you know what you're getting when you sign with the WWE at this point. It's a lifestyle choice. Nakamura wanted to make lots of money, live in Florida, surf, and stop beating up his body so much. Richochet's a lot younger, but, he was so established elsewhere and signed with the WWE so recently that I have to think he made a similar kind of choice.

[JonInMiddleGA]

from tonight's (well, the early morning's) NJPW press conference

Jyuhsin Thunder Liger has just announced the return of Super J Cup, in the US for the first time ever!
8/22 Temple Theater- Tacoma, WA
8/24 SFSU Student Life Event Center- San Francisco, CA
8/25 Walter Pyramid- Long Beach, CA
Tickets on sale June 24

16 competitors, drawn from NJPW, ROH, CMLL, and "other promotions"
Liger was described as the "producer" of the event, basically a nod to him suggesting the first one as part of him winding down his career this year.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by molson

I think you know what you're getting when you sign with the WWE at this point. It's a lifestyle choice. Nakamura wanted to make lots of money, live in Florida, surf, and stop beating up his body so much. Richochet's a lot younger, but, he was so established elsewhere and signed with the WWE so recently that I have to think he made a similar kind of choice.

Oh, I understand why he signed with WWE, I'm just lamenting the probable outcome. I find the "science" of it fascinating, as 2 years ago you had these very similar guys and we can see their career arcs playing out in real time with very different results.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Oh, I understand why he signed with WWE, I'm just lamenting the probable outcome. I find the "science" of it fascinating, as 2 years ago you had these very similar guys and we can see their career arcs playing out in real time with very different results.

I get it, but at the same time there were/are some differences.

For starters, Ospreay just turned 26 last month.Ricochet will be 31 this fall.
That's possibly a meaningful difference in age / ability to grow, change, improve.

But let's go from the date of their (in)famous match, looks like that was May 27, 2016 so pretty much three years ago.

And, give or take a bit, Ricochet signed with WWE in January 2018. That's very close to halfway between their match & today.

Might be interesting to look at what both did in those halves from then to now.

June 2016-Jan 2018
Ospreay: 247 matches
Ricochet: 162 matches

Jan 2018 - June 2019
Ospreay: 183 matches
Ricochet: 147 matches

According to Cagematch.net, since they met in 2016
Ospreay: 430 matches
Ricochet: 309 matches

Let's also look at who they've worked with. I can't find a way to break that down to the specific months/years but I think there's still something illuminating in it

Most frequent opponents career:
Ospreay: Bushi (52), Naito (51), Hiromu Takahashi (49), Marty Scurll (49), Evil (33), Sanada (33), Kushida (32), Kenny Omega (29), James Davis (24), Martin Kirby (24).

Ricochet:
Chuck Taylor (56), Masato Yoshino (55), Dragon Kid (53), BxB Hulk (50), YAMATO (48), PAC (47), Masato Mochizuki (37), Jimmy Susumu (35), Akira Tozawa (34), Genki Horiguchi (33)

I'd say that's advantage: Ospreay

And let's go back to that age difference again: going by Meltzer ratings (yeah yeah, I know, but Cagematch has the data so let's see what we see)

Of Ospreay's 25 highest rated matches, 21/25 have been after 2016 (and the others were all IN 2016).
Of Ricochet's 25 highest rated matches, 5 were before 2016, 6 more were IN 2016. fwiw, 7 of the 25 have been during his WWE employment.

What I'm getting at is this: Maybe it isn't entirely about the development that's occurred since they faced each other & how different circumstances have impacted that. Maybe there's a significant degree of looking at that May 27, 2016 match and seeing that it was a near peaked Ricochet (who was almost two years older then than Ospreay is NOW) vs a still nowhere near peaked Ospreay. Maybe there simply wasn't that much room left before Ricochet hit his ceiling.

[Toddzilla]

In athletic terms, 26 vs 31 years old may as well be 2 decades

[Suicane75]

Man, I did not realize Ricochet was that much older. But I'm not talking about athletics as much as working. Given the age difference, Ricochet should be so much more well rounded. But the divergent paths, especially johns stats point to why. After the past month, I think it's easy to see Ospreay as the next ace in the Omega role.