2007-2008 NBA Regular Season Thread - Page 16

Neon_Chaos · 03-04-2008, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

Plus, Kobe leads the league in dodged rape charges. I mean, that's gotta count for something.

Damn straight.

Brian Swartz · 03-04-2008, 01:59 PM

Quote:

the Cavs are 34-26. They are on pace for a 46-win season. The Lakers are on pace for a 57-win season. That's huge margin.

And if Kobe had missed six games and LeBron had played all of them for Cleveland, the Cavs would be on a 52-win pace and the Lakers on the same or worse with a superior supporting cast. That was the point.

MrBug708 · 03-04-2008, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

Damn straight.

He didnt really dodge the rape charge, he dogged the rape conviction

Butter · 03-04-2008, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBug708

He didnt really dodge the rape charge, he dogged the rape conviction

Oh snap, you told me!

Arles · 03-04-2008, 02:41 PM

I think Kobe or Lebron are fine choices. Kobe has been phenomenal this year. I just think the numbers show Lebron is more deserving, but if Kobe wins it I won't feel it is "unjust".

Chief Rum · 03-04-2008, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevew

kobe's supporting cast was miles ahead of lebrons, even pre-gasol.

Wow, you must have missed EVERY Laker game from 2003 until this season.

Chief Rum · 03-04-2008, 10:39 PM

Here's what I find is funny. Prior to this year, when Kobe was a dominating player but the only thing the Lakers had going, everyone says he can't win because his team isn't good enough. Now that his team is good enough, everyone is saying he should lose to a guy who is the only thing going for his team.

Kobe just can't win with some.

Neon_Chaos · 03-05-2008, 03:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

And if Kobe had missed six games and LeBron had played all of them for Cleveland, the Cavs would be on a 52-win pace and the Lakers on the same or worse with a superior supporting cast. That was the point.

The sad thing is that the Cavs aren't even the best team in their division, let alone their conference. They're the fourth-best team in the East. Even if you transpose those 6 games that Lebron missed into wins, and the Cavs are still four games short of the Pistons for the Central Division lead.

Compound the fact that they already have a nice handicap by playing in the Leastern Conference, it doesn't matter if Lebron has marginally better stats than Kobe this year. He isn't going to win the MVP trophy. Kobe was in the same boat in the 2005-2006 season, the guy was averaging 35.4 ppg, broke records here and there... but he wasn't the best standout player on the best team.

This is a two-man MVP race between Garnett and Kobe, which should have been a blowout for Garnett if he hadn't missed those games.

If Lebron wins the MVP trophy this year, it would certainly be a travesty, specially since there are two candidates who, if we consider history's bias towards the best standout player on the best team, are Kobe and KG.

stevew · 03-05-2008, 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Wow, you must have missed EVERY Laker game from 2003 until this season.

I thought we were talking about this year, AKA the only one that should matter for the 07-08 mvp.

stevew · 03-05-2008, 04:52 AM

Lebron winning a Travesty? WTF ever.

If the award was called the "NBA Best Player on the Best Team Award" sure, then you'd have a point. But it's not.

Right now any combo of LeBron/Kobe/Garnett could win and I would be satisfied that they made the right choice. Of course the homer in me would be a bit pissed, but it wouldn't be as bad of a screwjob as the 2nd Nash MVP.

Oh, and if Chris Paul wins the award this year, I will pull my fucking hair out.

Neon_Chaos · 03-05-2008, 05:55 AM

Given that he's on the tenth-best team in the league, not even the best team in their division, let alone their conference, yes, it would be a big travesty is Lebron wins the MVP.

ThunderingHERD · 03-05-2008, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevew

Lebron winning a Travesty? WTF ever.

If the award was called the "NBA Best Player on the Best Team Award" sure, then you'd have a point. But it's not.

Right now any combo of LeBron/Kobe/Garnett could win and I would be satisfied that they made the right choice. Of course the homer in me would be a bit pissed, but it wouldn't be as bad of a screwjob as the 2nd Nash MVP.

Oh, and if Chris Paul wins the award this year, I will pull my fucking hair out.

??

Presumably you didn't find the first Nash MVP to be a "screwjob", so let's compare Paul's numbers to Nash's that season:

         PTS    FG%     REB     AST     TO    STL

Nash     15.5   .502    3.4     11.5    3.3   1.0

Paul     20.9   .483    4.1     10.8    2.5   2.7

stevew · 03-05-2008, 06:05 AM

okay, the first one was a screwjob too. But then they went and canonized Nash by giving him his second.

Neon_Chaos · 03-05-2008, 06:11 AM

Reality is, it is usually the best player on the best team.

To be more specific, the best standout player on one of the best teams in the league. (must at least have his team leading the league, their conference or their division).

If the Cavs snatch the Central Division from the Pistons, then Lebron has a valid argument.

Neon_Chaos · 03-05-2008, 06:23 AM

One of the reasons I think KG basically gave up ground on winning the MVP race is because he missed nine games. You may think it's not big... but...

Since 1980-81, only one man has won the MVP by playing in less than 75 games for the full season, that's Allen Iverson, who won it in 2000-2001 by playing only 71.

So, what would be the criteria in winning the MVP? Forget stats. If you want to give out the "Best Statistical Performance for a Season" Award, give it to Lebron.

The staggering truth is that you have to win. Winners get the nod, regardless of statistics. Why? Because everyone loves winners. Not mediocrity.

So, what does the list of previous MVP-winners show us? There is a familiar pattern that can be considered as a loose criteria for determining the MVP. They win, they drive their team to be better than their previous season, they are defined as the leader and stand-out player of their team, and they play the season out.

Loose criteria on deciding who is the MVP:

Win at least 50 games. Everyone loves winners.
Be one of the top 3 teams in your Conference, or at least win your Division.
The player must be defined as the stand-out player of the team.
Play in at least 70 games (which is why Garnett is still in the running, barely)
Have a better year than your previous year (Cleveland won 50 games last season, are you seriously considering Lebron as the MVP when his team is on pace to fall short of that mark?)

Brian Swartz · 03-05-2008, 07:37 AM

The MVP award is as often as not or more so a travesty. Neon Chaos is absolutely right if you are simply trying to predict who's going to actually win it. And it is true that Nash deserved neither of his, add those to the list(which doesn't mean he isn't still a damned amazing offensive point guard). However, if you were to decide for some strange reason that the Most Valuable Player Award should go to the player who is, in fact, the most valuable, and you wanted to evaluate that objectively, you might come to some different conclusions about a number of things, including the value of being on an elite team.

Fidatelo · 03-05-2008, 08:38 AM

Nash having more MVP's than Shaq is crazy. That would be like if Boomer Esiason had more MVP's than Joe Montana or something. Inexcusable.

LloydLungs · 03-05-2008, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevew

Oh, and if Chris Paul wins the award this year, I will pull my fucking hair out.

He won't, but why that strong reaction? Chris Paul is an incredible player. The Hornets have pretty much come out of nowhere to be 40-19 in the toughest conference in the history of the NBA. That record would be flipped without him.

MrBug708 · 03-05-2008, 12:30 PM

Aren't the Celtics 7-2 without KG? Or something like that?

SirFozzie · 03-05-2008, 02:15 PM

Correct, they went 7-2 on the 9 game stretch while he was out.

Celtics can clinch a playoff birth with a win over the Pistons tonight.

Arles · 03-05-2008, 05:13 PM

Lebron is going to need to finish on a tear to have a chance. I will agree that if Cleveland isn't 3rd in the East and LA is a top 2 team, Kobe will win it. But, if Lebron can get the Cavs to third with 50+ wins (finish 50-32 ish or 16-6) and the Lakers end up as a 3-seed in the West, I could see Lebron stealing it.

larrymcg421 · 03-05-2008, 05:25 PM

Imagine if LeBron was playing with Pierce and Allen, or with Gasol, Odom, etc.? The Cavs would be fucking the rest of the league up the ass.

I don't care if the award was given to the "Best Player on the Best Team" in the past, That doesn't mean it should continue that way. I mean, Jimmy Rollins won the NL MVP for "Most Outs in Baseball", but I dont think they should do the same thing this year.

I think it should go to the player who is most valuable to his team. If anyone tries to argue that LeBron doesn't fit that description, then I'm not sure what sport you've been watching this year.

Oilers9911 · 03-05-2008, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevew

Especially when a guy like Steve Trash won it twice.

That may be the dumbest thing posted in this thread yet.

stevew · 03-05-2008, 09:10 PM

please.

Nash winning the award 2 times is a traveshamockery when you look at the history of the award, and the guys that never sniffed the award with much better stats. Shaq's only won it once, for instance.

DeToxRox · 03-05-2008, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oilers9911

That may be the dumbest thing posted in this thread yet.

Steve Nash defines overrated. He'd be Mark Price if he weren't in Pheonix.

stevew · 03-05-2008, 09:12 PM

You have to go back about 30 years(77-78) to find an MVP less deserving than Nash. Walton only played in 58 games and somehow won it. And I'm sure he was still very impressive.

Groundhog · 03-05-2008, 09:15 PM

Nice game from the LeBron fella today.

Logan · 03-05-2008, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Nice game from the LeBron fella today.

Not a bad stat line.

Joe Smith continues to contribute. He's always been one of my favorite players going back to his days at Maryland so I'm happy to see him on a team that could potentially go far. 11 rebounds tonight, 7 offensive. I remember a set of back-to-back games he had as a rookie where he put up 16 boards, 14 of which were offensive, and he followed that up with a 20 rebound effort, 11 coming on the offensive glass.

stevew · 03-05-2008, 09:26 PM

I really like the Joe Smith addition. He's basically Gooden, with a brain. But Gooden is a much better rebounder.

I really thought he was going to be a much better player overall in the NBA though. He was such a beast in college.

Logan · 03-05-2008, 09:28 PM

Gooden or Smith? You could probably argue both actually.

For Smith though, he's always been a bit of a tweener, preferring the jumpshot to post play. And without being incredibly athletic, it's hard being a great player when you're that size and shooting jumpers. Given his skill-set, it makes sense that he could have a greater impact on a team later on in his career.

Logan · 03-06-2008, 07:23 PM

26 points for LeBron at the half tonight, including buzzer-beaters at the end of each quarter.

Groundhog · 03-06-2008, 07:28 PM

We aren't getting the broadcast of the Cavs game down here, but looks like a surprisingly one-dimensional game from LeBron, Wallace and Varejao are stealing all his boards.

Larry Hughes is doing a great impersonation of the Larry Hughes we had to put with in Cleveland by the looks of things, too.

Brian Swartz · 03-06-2008, 09:02 PM

Quote:

25%, considering they play different positions, is close enough. Why would any team want their starting SG crashing the boards? He's third in all guards in rebounding per game. That's why it's close enough. Jason Kidd is first, and Mike Miller is second.

Just FYI as a follow-up here, and credit where it's due, I did some research on this. The average difference between a SG and a SF in rebounding is big enough that Kobe actually should get credit for being a better rebounder(about 10%).

That's the good news for Bryant. The bad news is it makes James's already impressive assist numbers positively monstrous. Applying the positional difference to that gives LeBron a 95% edge -- almost double Kobe's effectiveness.

miami_fan · 03-06-2008, 09:19 PM

If only the writers and broadcasters were willing to do the same research.

I would still choose Kobe but it would not bother me if LeBron won it...

...until next year when the voters disregard the stats and vote for the best player on the best team again.

Chief Rum · 03-07-2008, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevew

I thought we were talking about this year, AKA the only one that should matter for the 07-08 mvp.

the person you responded to was talking about Kobe's past years. You better pick your quotes better if that's not what you intended to mean.

Chief Rum · 03-07-2008, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Imagine if LeBron was playing with Pierce and Allen, or with Gasol, Odom, etc.? The Cavs would be fucking the rest of the league up the ass.

I don't care if the award was given to the "Best Player on the Best Team" in the past, That doesn't mean it should continue that way. I mean, Jimmy Rollins won the NL MVP for "Most Outs in Baseball", but I dont think they should do the same thing this year.

I think it should go to the player who is most valuable to his team. If anyone tries to argue that LeBron doesn't fit that description, then I'm not sure what sport you've been watching this year.

Then you were voting for Kobe from 2004 to 2006, right? Because the Lakers are picking high lottery all three years without him. Instead, they got a low lottery pick the first year and made the playoffs the other two years. No one meant more to his team's success than Kobe those years--he was the definition of most valuable to his team.

But no one would give Kobe the MVP those years because the Lakers weren't winning championships.

Seems to me Kobe haters want to deprive him of this trophy no matter how they can do it, even with hypocrisy and double standards.

Atocep · 03-07-2008, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Then you were voting for Kobe from 2004 to 2006, right? Because the Lakers are picking high lottery all three years without him. Instead, they got a low lottery pick the first year and made the playoffs the other two years. No one meant more to his team's success than Kobe those years--he was the definition of most valuable to his team.

But no one would give Kobe the MVP those years because the Lakers weren't winning championships.

Seems to me Kobe haters want to deprive him of this trophy no matter how they can do it, even with hypocrisy and double standards.

I'm not a Kobe hater and I don't see how anyone could possibly make a case for Kobe, KG, or anyone else to get the award over Lebron. Kobe is easily the second choice since KG missed quite a few games, but he's a very distant 2nd right now.

He's beating Kobe in just about every major stat, his team is sitting in 4th place in the east, and without him the Cavs are fighting with Miami and Minnesota for the #1 pick.

Chief Rum · 03-07-2008, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atocep

I'm not a Kobe hater and I don't see how anyone could possibly make a case for Kobe, KG, or anyone else to get the award over Lebron. Kobe is easily the second choice since KG missed quite a few games, but he's a very distant 2nd right now.

He's beating Kobe in just about every major stat, his team is sitting in 4th place in the east, and without him the Cavs are fighting with Miami and Minnesota for the #1 pick.

I don't disagree with the stats. I disagree with the standards for the award that those arguing against Kobe are going by. Using the same standards by which you name LeBron the MVP this year, you could very easily have given that trophy to Kobe in 2006 and 2007. But fact is, it wasn't and people--these very same people, I would bet, who dislike Kobe--said he shouldn't get the MVP because his team wasn't a championship contender.

Well, now that it is, they want to use those standards to hand the trophy to LeBron? Right, no double standard there. You can't have your cake and eat it, too. Choose one standard. If someone argues for LeBron as MVP this year, they have to admit Kobe got shafted for the award before this year. If you agree the team needs to be a championship contender, sorry, but 4th in the far weaker conference isn't a championship contender, IMO, even post trade.

In fact, I would argue 7th in the West in 2006 and 2007 was at least equal to the achievement of 4th in the East this year.

Chief Rum · 03-07-2008, 01:31 AM

Oh, and though I respond to Atocep, since he is not a Kobe hater, that's not really aimed at him but at the ones who do unreasonably rip the guy, IMO. I am fine with LeBron as MVP--he has had a heck of a season. But I think the standards need to be the same. No changing the rules just because you don't like the guy (once again, that last not aimed at Atocep or other non-Kobe haters).

Atocep · 03-07-2008, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Oh, and though I respond to Atocep, since he is not a Kobe hater, that's not really aimed at him but at the ones who do unreasonably rip the guy, IMO. I am fine with LeBron as MVP--he has had a heck of a season. But I think the standards need to be the same. No changing the rules just because you don't like the guy (once again, that last not aimed at Atocep or other non-Kobe haters).

I think '04-'05 it should have went to Duncan. Kobe's stat line looked solid, but he's had much better years than that.

Kobe should have easily taken the award in '05-'06. It really was a travesty that Nash got the award that year over him. This was Kobe's best season and he carried that team into the playoffs.

Last year it could have gone either way between Dirk and Kobe. I don't see Dirk as a bad choice and definitely wouldn't have seen Kobe as one had he received it.

Chief Rum · 03-07-2008, 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atocep

I think '04-'05 it should have went to Duncan. Kobe's stat line looked solid, but he's had much better years than that.

Kobe should have easily taken the award in '05-'06. It really was a travesty that Nash got the award that year over him. This was Kobe's best season and he carried that team into the playoffs.

Last year it could have gone either way between Dirk and Kobe. I don't see Dirk as a bad choice and definitely wouldn't have seen Kobe as one had he received it.

Yeah, 04-05 would have been Kobe's weakest argument, as the Lakers didn't even make the playoffs (so he didn't really carry them that far).

Glad you agree that Kobe was shafted at least one year the past couple. And that's where our issue is. MVPs have already been awarded on this "best player, best team" standard. And on that basis, LeBron simply can't receive the MVP this year. His team hasn't gotten far enough in a weaker conference.

But, yeah, based on stats alone, LeBron certainly has the edge, and if we were truly judging this as value to team, we would likely give it to LeBron this year. And if the media had done this regularly in the past, he would be the favorite. But they came up with some different standard that I suspect they borrowed from the baseball writers.

Brian Swartz · 03-07-2008, 07:09 AM

Quote:

I am fine with LeBron as MVP--he has had a heck of a season. But I think the standards need to be the same. No changing the rules just because you don't like the guy (once again, that last not aimed at Atocep or other non-Kobe haters).

I agree with this, and I'm definitely not among the Kobe-haters. I've always thought he gets more criticism than he deserves(for example, the constant overanalysis of whether he shoots too much or not, and the issue of carrying his team farther into the playoffs, when Nash gets neither with two MVPs). I think both guys this year are more deserving than any of the last three MVPs -- but we can only choose one and I don't like the idea of taking Kobe just because he should have won one before.

bulletsponge · 03-07-2008, 08:04 AM

they should ban all MVP awards. there all political and just gives sportwriters another opportunity to verbally blow thier favorite players. and see what its done to this thread, ruined it

TazFTW · 03-08-2008, 10:08 PM

Who needs Yao?

st.cronin · 03-08-2008, 10:23 PM

To weigh in on the mvp debate, I believe that Chris Paul is the best player in the league this year. Lebron and Kobe are both good, though. My ballot would go Paul, Kobe, LBJ.

My main purpose in posting here though is to ask people to please stop comparing Kobe to Michael Jordan. He is not close to Michael Jordan. Jordan was far and away the best player in the league for about 10 years - there was no question, no debate. Kobe has never been on that level, not even now, in his best season.

Eaglesfan27 · 03-08-2008, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TazFTW

Who needs Yao?

The Rockets do in the playoffs, particularly if they have to play the Spurs.

stevew · 03-08-2008, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by st.cronin

To weigh in on the mvp debate, I believe that Chris Paul is the best player in the league this year. Lebron and Kobe are both good, though. My ballot would go Paul, Kobe, LBJ.

That's hilarious

Brian Swartz · 03-08-2008, 11:07 PM

Why is that hilarious? IMO he has as good an argument as Kobe, he'd probably be my third choice but he definitely deserves to be in the discussion. Good assist numbers, turns it over less and rebounds more than any other top PG, excellent defender(#1 in steals), productive scorer who shoots 48% from the field, 88% from the line -- there's nothing funny about his case.

MrBug708 · 03-08-2008, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by st.cronin

To weigh in on the mvp debate, I believe that Chris Paul is the best player in the league this year. Lebron and Kobe are both good, though. My ballot would go Paul, Kobe, LBJ.

My main purpose in posting here though is to ask people to please stop comparing Kobe to Michael Jordan. He is not close to Michael Jordan. Jordan was far and away the best player in the league for about 10 years - there was no question, no debate. Kobe has never been on that level, not even now, in his best season.

This is a bizarre post. I didn't think people still compared Kobe to Jordan? In thirty years, people will probably be comparing players to Kobe, Jordan, and Lebron.

MrBug708 · 03-08-2008, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Why is that hilarious? IMO he has as good an argument as Kobe, he'd probably be my third choice but he definitely deserves to be in the discussion. Good assist numbers, turns it over less and rebounds more than any other top PG, excellent defender(#1 in steals), productive scorer who shoots 48% from the field, 88% from the line -- there's nothing funny about his case.

Steals is not the best measure of how good a defender is

03-04-2008, 02:41 PM	#755
Arles Grey Dog Software Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Phoenix, AZ by way of Belleville, IL	I think Kobe or Lebron are fine choices. Kobe has been phenomenal this year. I just think the numbers show Lebron is more deserving, but if Kobe wins it I won't feel it is "unjust". __________________ Developer of Bowl Bound College Football http://www.greydogsoftware.com

03-04-2008, 10:39 PM	#757
Chief Rum Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Where Hip Hop lives	Here's what I find is funny. Prior to this year, when Kobe was a dominating player but the only thing the Lakers had going, everyone says he can't win because his team isn't good enough. Now that his team is good enough, everyone is saying he should lose to a guy who is the only thing going for his team. Kobe just can't win with some. __________________ . . I would rather be wrong...Than live in the shadows of your song...My mind is open wide...And now I'm ready to start...You're not sure...You open the door...And step out into the dark...Now I'm ready.

03-05-2008, 05:55 AM	#761
Neon_Chaos Pro Starter Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Parañaque, Philippines	Given that he's on the tenth-best team in the league, not even the best team in their division, let alone their conference, yes, it would be a big travesty is Lebron wins the MVP. __________________ Come and see. Last edited by Neon_Chaos : 03-05-2008 at 05:59 AM.

03-05-2008, 06:05 AM	#763
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	okay, the first one was a screwjob too. But then they went and canonized Nash by giving him his second. Last edited by stevew : 03-05-2008 at 06:06 AM.

03-05-2008, 06:11 AM	#764
Neon_Chaos Pro Starter Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Parañaque, Philippines	Reality is, it is usually the best player on the best team. To be more specific, the best standout player on one of the best teams in the league. (must at least have his team leading the league, their conference or their division). If the Cavs snatch the Central Division from the Pistons, then Lebron has a valid argument. __________________ Come and see.

03-05-2008, 04:52 AM	#760
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	Lebron winning a Travesty? WTF ever. If the award was called the "NBA Best Player on the Best Team Award" sure, then you'd have a point. But it's not. Right now any combo of LeBron/Kobe/Garnett could win and I would be satisfied that they made the right choice. Of course the homer in me would be a bit pissed, but it wouldn't be as bad of a screwjob as the 2nd Nash MVP. Oh, and if Chris Paul wins the award this year, I will pull my fucking hair out.

03-05-2008, 06:23 AM	#765
Neon_Chaos Pro Starter Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Parañaque, Philippines	One of the reasons I think KG basically gave up ground on winning the MVP race is because he missed nine games. You may think it's not big... but... Since 1980-81, only one man has won the MVP by playing in less than 75 games for the full season, that's Allen Iverson, who won it in 2000-2001 by playing only 71. So, what would be the criteria in winning the MVP? Forget stats. If you want to give out the "Best Statistical Performance for a Season" Award, give it to Lebron. The staggering truth is that you have to win. Winners get the nod, regardless of statistics. Why? Because everyone loves winners. Not mediocrity. So, what does the list of previous MVP-winners show us? There is a familiar pattern that can be considered as a loose criteria for determining the MVP. They win, they drive their team to be better than their previous season, they are defined as the leader and stand-out player of their team, and they play the season out. Loose criteria on deciding who is the MVP: Win at least 50 games. Everyone loves winners. Be one of the top 3 teams in your Conference, or at least win your Division. The player must be defined as the stand-out player of the team. Play in at least 70 games (which is why Garnett is still in the running, barely) Have a better year than your previous year (Cleveland won 50 games last season, are you seriously considering Lebron as the MVP when his team is on pace to fall short of that mark?) __________________ Come and see. Last edited by Neon_Chaos : 03-05-2008 at 06:38 AM.

03-05-2008, 07:37 AM	#766
Brian Swartz Grizzled Veteran Join Date: May 2006	The MVP award is as often as not or more so a travesty. Neon Chaos is absolutely right if you are simply trying to predict who's going to actually win it. And it is true that Nash deserved neither of his, add those to the list(which doesn't mean he isn't still a damned amazing offensive point guard). However, if you were to decide for some strange reason that the Most Valuable Player Award should go to the player who is, in fact, the most valuable, and you wanted to evaluate that objectively, you might come to some different conclusions about a number of things, including the value of being on an elite team.

03-05-2008, 08:38 AM	#767
Fidatelo Pro Starter Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Winnipeg, MB	Nash having more MVP's than Shaq is crazy. That would be like if Boomer Esiason had more MVP's than Joe Montana or something. Inexcusable. __________________ "Breakfast? Breakfast schmekfast, look at the score for God's sake. It's only the second period and I'm winning 12-2. Breakfasts come and go, Rene, but Hartford, the Whale, they only beat Vancouver maybe once or twice in a lifetime."

03-05-2008, 12:30 PM	#769
MrBug708 Head Coach Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Whittier	Aren't the Celtics 7-2 without KG? Or something like that?

03-05-2008, 02:15 PM	#770
SirFozzie Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: The State of Insanity	Correct, they went 7-2 on the 9 game stretch while he was out. Celtics can clinch a playoff birth with a win over the Pistons tonight. __________________ Check out Foz's New Video Game Site, An 8-bit Mind in an 8GB world! http://an8bitmind.com

03-05-2008, 05:13 PM	#771
Arles Grey Dog Software Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Phoenix, AZ by way of Belleville, IL	Lebron is going to need to finish on a tear to have a chance. I will agree that if Cleveland isn't 3rd in the East and LA is a top 2 team, Kobe will win it. But, if Lebron can get the Cavs to third with 50+ wins (finish 50-32 ish or 16-6) and the Lakers end up as a 3-seed in the West, I could see Lebron stealing it. __________________ Developer of Bowl Bound College Football http://www.greydogsoftware.com

03-05-2008, 05:25 PM	#772
larrymcg421 Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Georgia	Imagine if LeBron was playing with Pierce and Allen, or with Gasol, Odom, etc.? The Cavs would be fucking the rest of the league up the ass. I don't care if the award was given to the "Best Player on the Best Team" in the past, That doesn't mean it should continue that way. I mean, Jimmy Rollins won the NL MVP for "Most Outs in Baseball", but I dont think they should do the same thing this year. I think it should go to the player who is most valuable to his team. If anyone tries to argue that LeBron doesn't fit that description, then I'm not sure what sport you've been watching this year. __________________ Top 10 Songs of the Year 1955-Present (1976 Added) Franchise Portfolio Draft Winner Fictional Character Draft Winner Television Family Draft Winner Build Your Own Hollywood Studio Draft Winner

03-05-2008, 09:10 PM	#774
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	please. Nash winning the award 2 times is a traveshamockery when you look at the history of the award, and the guys that never sniffed the award with much better stats. Shaq's only won it once, for instance.

03-05-2008, 09:12 PM	#776
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	You have to go back about 30 years(77-78) to find an MVP less deserving than Nash. Walton only played in 58 games and somehow won it. And I'm sure he was still very impressive.

03-05-2008, 09:15 PM	#777
Groundhog Coordinator Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Sydney, Australia	Nice game from the LeBron fella today. __________________ Politics, n. Strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. --Ambrose Bierce

03-05-2008, 09:26 PM	#779
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	I really like the Joe Smith addition. He's basically Gooden, with a brain. But Gooden is a much better rebounder. I really thought he was going to be a much better player overall in the NBA though. He was such a beast in college.

03-05-2008, 09:28 PM	#780
Logan Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: NYC	Gooden or Smith? You could probably argue both actually. For Smith though, he's always been a bit of a tweener, preferring the jumpshot to post play. And without being incredibly athletic, it's hard being a great player when you're that size and shooting jumpers. Given his skill-set, it makes sense that he could have a greater impact on a team later on in his career. Last edited by Logan : 03-05-2008 at 09:29 PM.

03-06-2008, 07:23 PM	#781
Logan Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: NYC	26 points for LeBron at the half tonight, including buzzer-beaters at the end of each quarter.

03-06-2008, 07:28 PM	#782
Groundhog Coordinator Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Sydney, Australia	We aren't getting the broadcast of the Cavs game down here, but looks like a surprisingly one-dimensional game from LeBron, Wallace and Varejao are stealing all his boards. Larry Hughes is doing a great impersonation of the Larry Hughes we had to put with in Cleveland by the looks of things, too. __________________ Politics, n. Strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. --Ambrose Bierce

03-06-2008, 09:19 PM	#784
miami_fan Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Land O Lakes FL	If only the writers and broadcasters were willing to do the same research. I would still choose Kobe but it would not bother me if LeBron won it... ...until next year when the voters disregard the stats and vote for the best player on the best team again. __________________ "The blind soldier fought for me in this war. The least I can do now is fight for him. I have eyes. He hasn’t. I have a voice on the radio, he hasn’t. I was born a white man. And until a colored man is a full citizen, like me, I haven’t the leisure to enjoy the freedom that colored man risked his life to maintain for me. I don’t own what I have until he owns an equal share of it. Until somebody beats me and blinds me, I am in his debt."- Orson Welles August 11, 1946

03-07-2008, 01:31 AM	#789
Chief Rum Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Where Hip Hop lives	Oh, and though I respond to Atocep, since he is not a Kobe hater, that's not really aimed at him but at the ones who do unreasonably rip the guy, IMO. I am fine with LeBron as MVP--he has had a heck of a season. But I think the standards need to be the same. No changing the rules just because you don't like the guy (once again, that last not aimed at Atocep or other non-Kobe haters). __________________ . . I would rather be wrong...Than live in the shadows of your song...My mind is open wide...And now I'm ready to start...You're not sure...You open the door...And step out into the dark...Now I'm ready.

03-07-2008, 08:04 AM	#793
bulletsponge Pro Starter Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: TX	they should ban all MVP awards. there all political and just gives sportwriters another opportunity to verbally blow thier favorite players. and see what its done to this thread, ruined it

03-08-2008, 10:08 PM	#794
TazFTW Pro Rookie Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Honolulu, HI	Who needs Yao? __________________ "Teams don't want to make the trip anymore," says Hawaii coach June Jones. "They come here, we kick their ass, they go home." Fire Ron Lee.

03-08-2008, 10:23 PM	#795
st.cronin General Manager Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: New Mexico	To weigh in on the mvp debate, I believe that Chris Paul is the best player in the league this year. Lebron and Kobe are both good, though. My ballot would go Paul, Kobe, LBJ. My main purpose in posting here though is to ask people to please stop comparing Kobe to Michael Jordan. He is not close to Michael Jordan. Jordan was far and away the best player in the league for about 10 years - there was no question, no debate. Kobe has never been on that level, not even now, in his best season. __________________ co-commish: bb-bbcf.net knives out

03-08-2008, 11:07 PM	#798
Brian Swartz Grizzled Veteran Join Date: May 2006	Why is that hilarious? IMO he has as good an argument as Kobe, he'd probably be my third choice but he definitely deserves to be in the discussion. Good assist numbers, turns it over less and rebounds more than any other top PG, excellent defender(#1 in steals), productive scorer who shoots 48% from the field, 88% from the line -- there's nothing funny about his case.

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