The Thread of the 2009-2010 NBA Season

[molson]

I don't see the Celtics adding anything this year except a role player. They're going to sink or swin with this group this year, and then start to rebuild in the off-season.

And I can't imagine a major intra-conference trade between playoff teams (that might very meet in the 1st round)

[RainMaker]

Well if you really want to talk about the Celtics problem, it's that Rasheed sucks this year. They should really start cutting back on his minutes even more.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

no way. not to say he couldn't improve on learning when to gamble successfully (which he will as he gets older), but it's not overrated

There were some people calling him defensive player of the year.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Well if you really want to talk about the Celtics problem, it's that Rasheed sucks this year. They should really start cutting back on his minutes even more.

And that would be a great spot for a role player, to get some of those minutes.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

There were some people calling him defensive player of the year.

okay - i suppose if you take it to THAT extreme it's overrated yeah

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by molson

And that would be a great spot for a role player, to get some of those minutes.

aka "the injured marquis daniels"

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I still believe Rondo's defense is overated. He gets steals and makes plays but he gambles a ton and gives up a lot of easy baskets. I haven't watched them a ton but when the Bulls have played them, Rose was able to basically do whatever he wanted to against Rondo.

*shurg*

I'll believe my own eyes over 82 games, as well as most of the people paid to analyze this stuff for a living, over your impression of a series.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

And I can't imagine a major intra-conference trade between playoff teams (that might very meet in the 1st round)

Bulls aren't really playing for this season. They need to free up cap room to sign a max contract in the offseason.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

*shurg*

I'll believe my own eyes over 82 games, as well as most of the people paid to analyze this stuff for a living, over your impression of a series.

That he's defensive player of the year?

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

No, you said that in the playoffs people would run circles around him. I never brought up POY at all.

[DaddyTorgo]

i'm not sure anyone really thinks he's DPOY at this point, aside from whatever solo-nutjob you heard advancing that theory. i think we all just believe he's above average defensively

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

He's probably referring to Hollinger (burgeoning basketball sabremetrician) who has been a big Rondo fan.

NBA: Midseason award winners - ESPN

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

He's probably referring to Hollinger (burgeoning basketball sabremetrician) who has been a big Rondo fan.

NBA: Midseason award winners - ESPN

kind of a stretch to say that he's being mentioned as DPOY candidate from that where he's given an "honorable mention"

although the celtics are 10pts better defensively with him on the floor than off, so he's no slouch, that's for sure!

[MikeVic]

Ok Celtics fans, I know I read somewhere about Rondo being mentioned for DPOY and I don't have Insider, so it couldn't have been that article linked. So it's not just one or two nut jobs, but it probably was on ESPN.com as well.

[DaddyTorgo]

well in that article varejao makes (roughly) 11ppg difference for the Cavs with his defense, and Rondo is at 10ppg difference for the Celtics, so I guess it's not some horribly massive stretch.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

No, you said that in the playoffs people would run circles around him. I never brought up POY at all.

Because playoff teams have. They can't stop Atlanta when Crawford and Johnson are on the court at the same time. The teams that have beaten them the last month have done it with strong guard play.

Rondo is a good defender when he is matched up against true point guards who aren't offensive threats. He can't guard a shooting guard at all. Allen has shown he can't either. So when they go against a team with a strong backcourt, they are going to get burnt.

It wasn't a stab at Rondo but more at Allen. Rondo is simply limited in who he can defend due to his size. He just can't go up against Joe Johnson or Dwayne Wade. He's going to have trouble against scoring point guards like Jamal Crawford and Derrick Rose. So when the Celtics play teams like that, they need someone on the court who can defend those players and Rondo is not the guy.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by whomario

so, Kevin Durant... After another ridiculous scoring game (45 points on 16-21 shooting) : In his last 21 games he never once scored less than 25 (16 times 30+), shooting 54/52/87 in that stretch, going to the line nearly 11 times a game.
If he ever gets a decent feel for reading double teams and traps than he´s going to be unstoppable.

At what point do we decide that he's in the upper echelon of the league? Someone at work said he's now a top 5 player (after LeBron, Kobe, Wade, and Carmelo). And we started thinking about that statement. I think it's still a little too early to say that, but we at least started thinking about it.

SI

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

At what point do we decide that he's in the upper echelon of the league? Someone at work said he's now a top 5 player (after LeBron, Kobe, Wade, and Carmelo). And we started thinking about that statement. I think it's still a little too early to say that, but we at least started thinking about it.

SI

Scoring wise he is in the upper echelon. I'd put him up there with anyone besides Kobe and Lebron. He is turnover prone and needs to improve defensively. But as for the upper echelon, I do think he needs a solid playoff series or two before you can make that statement.

[DaddyTorgo]

he's certainly top 10. not sure who you put after the "big 4" (although tbh i don't know that you include wade in there anymore). duncan? dirk? nash? cp3?

[DeToxRox]

Welcome to Versus!

CBA Negotiations Could Get Ugly
January, 26, 2010
Jan 26
11:44
PM ET
Email Print Share
By Chris Broussard
Archive
In conversations with front-office executives Tuesday night, I was told some strong stuff regarding the upcoming Collective Bargaining Agreement. As you probably know, the current CBA will end after the 2010-2011 season.

The gist of what I was told is that the owners will go for the jugular and drop the players’ salaries immensely.

I spoke with one executive about Amare Stoudemire and was told that, the way owners are talking now, Stoudemire wouldn’t even get a five-year contract worth $60 million under the next CBA. That sounded crazy to me, but when I spoke with a team owner an hour later, he made the executive sound tame.

“The owners are really going to chop the money down,’’ the owner said. “I think Stoudemire would get $5 or $6 million [annually] in the next deal. The bottom line is that things are going to change dramatically.’’

Five to six million dollars for a five-time All-Star in his prime? That sounds cruel compared with the players’ current salaries, so cruel that I just don’t believe it. A general manager I spoke with later agreed that that was an extreme.

“That [$5 million for Stoudemire] sounds a little bizarre, but player salaries are definitely going to take a hit,’’ the GM said. “Players that come up for contracts under the new CBA are going to find themselves getting a lot less money.’’

It’s well-known that owners will try to shorten contracts. Currently, players can sign contracts as long as six years. One GM told me the owners are looking to shorten the maximum length of a contract to four or five years. He added that they have actually discussed trying to guarantee only the first two years of a four-year deal, and that the third and fourth years would be guaranteed only if a player reached certain performance-based incentives the previous season.

In other words, it would be closer to the NFL than to today’s NBA.

“Those concepts are being discussed,’’ another GM told me. “Is there a sentiment among some [owners] that they’d like to have it like football? Yeah. But I think that’s out of bounds.’’

Severe drops in salary. Non-guaranteed contracts. Billy Hunter, the Executive Director of the Players Association, will not settle for that without a fight, and the owners know it.

“There’s going to be a lockout,’’ the owner said. “There’s not even a doubt in my mind about that. Billy’s not going to make a deal like that. Teams are already saving up money for a strike.’’

Maybe the players should start saving too.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

he's certainly top 10. not sure who you put after the "big 4" (although tbh i don't know that you include wade in there anymore). duncan? dirk? nash? cp3?

Wade is definitely in there. He's just got a horseshit team.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

At what point do we decide that he's in the upper echelon of the league? Someone at work said he's now a top 5 player (after LeBron, Kobe, Wade, and Carmelo). And we started thinking about that statement. I think it's still a little too early to say that, but we at least started thinking about it.

SI

I agree with what has been said : Top 10, 8, 15 whatever. That he is allready. People i´d take over him right now (and assuming it´s for 1 season only) are James, Paul, Kobe, Wade, Anthony and maybe with the right situations Nash on the perimeter and Duncan and Nowitzki up front.

I think the only reasons why people don´t mention his name that often is 1) he plays for the freaking Thunder, 2) he has so much potential that it´s hard to recognize how great he is allready.
And 3) A guy with that poor passing ability and this suporting cast (which is great in it´s way, but that way isn´t offense) shouldn´t average 30 and have his team solidly over .500

A guy like that should put up those numbers on a .300 team. So people kind of still see "great scoring, bad turnovers, can´t win that way"
That won´t change until they really reached the POs and scraped their way to a win or 2 against the upper seed behind Durant´s scoring.

Yet they do. It´s basically Kobe meets supporting Cast (c.a. 2006) 2.0 only with a supporting Cast that actually is talented and not just scrappy and actually does things other than make room for Bryant.
It´s rare to see this clear of a No1 option and still have the other 4 players be active on both ends.

I f.e. don´t see that with the Heat right now. Yes, it´s a bad supporting cast and it´s not Wade´s fault, but still. The Heat players are content just strolling along (especially the perimeter people), while the Thunder all have their "thing" they do on the court. Actually that´s propably nothing that has to do with Durant, just thought i´d mention that random observation

As for the potential : He still has quite a few flaws even on offense that it´s pretty remarkable how could he allready is. And it´s not like he´s getting by on natural ability (yes, he´s a gifted athlete but far from a dominating one at the SF spot)
I could easily see him destroy some poor team scoring 40 a game over a playoff series in a few years.


to summarise : I really, really like seeing him play

[whomario]

can´t help but hope for a hollywood-like comeback this season, even though my brain says "next season is definitely the better idea" and i know from own experience that taking the boot off is just the very first small step.

Still, gives me a warm feeling seeing him on a court, if only for Free Throws

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by whomario

I agree with what has been said : Top 10, 8, 15 whatever. That he is allready. People i´d take over him right now (and assuming it´s for 1 season only) are James, Paul, Kobe, Wade, Anthony and maybe with the right situations Nash on the perimeter and Duncan and Nowitzki up front.

You would include Dwight Howard correct?

Durant reminds me a lot of Dirk. A great scorer and top 10 player but not as diverse as some of the other top 10 players.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Welcome to Versus!

Why is anyone talking about giving Amare a max contract deal anyway/

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Why is anyone talking about giving Amare a max contract deal anyway/

It is the NBA, where Erik Dampier makes what, 12 mil this year?

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

It is the NBA, where Erik Dampier makes what, 12 mil this year?

That is my point. I don't believe there is any system that will prevent NBA GMs from screwing up their own cap except the pending free agency of Lebron, D-Wade, etc. The current max contracts in the league actually look decent right now. The only ones that are real head scratchers IMO are Tracy McGraddy, Jermaine O'Neal, and Michael Redd. When the CBA was signed, the owners KNEW and bragged that only the very best players would make top dollar in the league. The owners need to exercise some self control.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Why is anyone talking about giving Amare a max contract deal anyway/

Why? Well, he's 27 years old. He averages over 20 points a game on 55% shooting. Just two seasons ago he averaged over 25 points a game on 59% shooting. He's a 6'10", 250 pound center who does all of that and hits his FT at 75-80% to boot. I know his defense sucks. I know he's injury prone. I know he has had attitude problems. But if you are an NBA team who either A) Needs one more piece to put you over the top or B) a crappy team who puts people in the seats. . . you give Amare a max deal.

Being a Denver fan is fun when you look at contracts. People thought Nene was vastly overpaid and called him one of the worst contracts in the game 2 years ago. People said/say the same about Kenyon Martin. (and they have no idea what Kenyon can do defensively, he's been the unsung hero of the team this season)

When it comes to the NBA, you have to keep in mind 3 things

1) You can't win without superstars. (Amare may not be in Lebron or Kobe's class, he's certainly as good as Pau Gasol on the offensive end. (I know, defense is a part of the game, but defense is usually about effort, bad defensive players can become good ones later in their careers.) Superstars draw more fouls, get you more respect from the refs and keep your uber star from getting mugged for 48 minutes in the playoffs.

2) If you don't get one of the top 5 picks, you don't have much of a shot at getting a superstar.

3) If you are building a team full of youngsters, you have a one or two year window to make your big signing. If you don't make your signing, when you reup your own guys, you'll be over the cap and out of contention for better players. You're better off throwing the money and getting an asset than you are holding onto it and hoping all of your kids develop. OKC will face this problem in a couple of years. They'll need one guy to put them over the top, a secondary player to Durant, but they'll have to hope he's on the market when they hit their window. If he isn't, they'll sign a guy like Andre Miller (see Portland) or Kenyon Martin (see Denver) and hope for the best.

[RainMaker]

He's still not max contract quality. When I think of max contract, I think of superstar who can lead a team. He is maybe a #2 on a good team (although he can't even do that right now). He puts up good numbers offensively, but he's a flawed player. He's horrific defensively and can't figure out the basics of defending a pick & roll. He's a horrible passer which makes him a black hole once the ball is fed to him. And he turns the ball over too much. If Amare is so great, there should be no reason the Suns wouldn't be one of the top teams in the West considering they have a superstar PG.

I think he'd be a great compliment to a guy like Lebron and feel that is a player they should have targeted in the offseason. I'd also love to see Miami take a swipe at him and see how he pairs with Wade. But there is no way he should be considered a max contract player and any team that does give him one is going to straddle themselves with a .500 team for the next half decade.

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

That is my point. I don't believe there is any system that will prevent NBA GMs from screwing up their own cap except the pending free agency of Lebron, D-Wade, etc. The current max contracts in the league actually look decent right now. The only ones that are real head scratchers IMO are Tracy McGraddy, Jermaine O'Neal, and Michael Redd. When the CBA was signed, the owners KNEW and bragged that only the very best players would make top dollar in the league. The owners need to exercise some self control.

To be fair, I believe TMac, Jermaine, and Michael Redd were basically franchise players when their contracts were signed.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

That is my point. I don't believe there is any system that will prevent NBA GMs from screwing up their own cap except the pending free agency of Lebron, D-Wade, etc. The current max contracts in the league actually look decent right now. The only ones that are real head scratchers IMO are Tracy McGraddy, Jermaine O'Neal, and Michael Redd. When the CBA was signed, the owners KNEW and bragged that only the very best players would make top dollar in the league. The owners need to exercise some self control.

I agree about the self control and I do think teams have gotten better at it. The problem still is that a lot of teams are losing a lot of money. 12 teams lost money last year and the number is expected to rise this year. It isn't the have-nots losing money either but teams like Portland (who lost $20 million) who draw great attendance numbers and were a playoff team. If they can't make a profit now, they'll never be able to.

The difference in this negotiation and MLB is the players can't hold out for long and the owners know it. Too many of these players live paycheck to paycheck and have huge commitments. Whether it be big homes or an entourage and lifestyle to support. They just don't have the leverage the owners have and the owners are going to make sure they make a profit even if it means shutting down for an entire season.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

To be fair, I believe TMac, Jermaine, and Michael Redd were basically franchise players when their contracts were signed.

I'll give you T-Mac and maybe Jermaine O'Neal. But Michael Redd was never a franchise player in my opinion. A guy who could be a #2 on a great team but never a guy I could see leading a franchise deep into the playoffs.

[whomario]

random nightly observations :

Nicholas Batum looks amazing for the Blazers, one of those cases where a summer with a national team has a positive effect. Way more assertive and more collected offensively.
Suprising how quick he´s offering this type of play after coming back from injury, so maybe there´s even more to come in 5 games only 1 bad offensive game and there he played great defense on Nowitzki in the 4th and OT.

Robin Lopez looks kinda good for the Suns, scores the ball very efficiently and plays ok defense (albeit still a bit slow to rotate on that end)

Steve Nash will very likely end up with yet another 50/40/90 season, such an amzaing shooter. a scrappy guard shooting 50+% FG (and 40% from 3) in 6 consecutive seasons is pretty remarkable, no matter what the system.

Phoenix now won 3 including back to back road wins in a row and at 29-21 look like a decent bet for the playoffs at least again. Nash finally a string with low TO numbers, actually more than that with 39 assists and only 3 TOs in those 3 games.

Utah is on a roll winning 10 of their last 11. Millsap filling in as starter for Boozer : 32/14 with 7 assists and 25/9 with 4 blocks shooting 11/17 and 10/16

Memphis beats the Lakers, Gasol/Randolph with a great game against the Lakers frontline.
Bryant is now the Lakers leading scorer over Jerry West.

[DaddyTorgo]

The Washington Wizards thought the Celtics got some extra help from the referees.

"You're playing against the Boston Celtics, so you're not going to get a lot of calls. KG's going to set illegal screens; they're not going to be called. That's just part of the game," Wizards center Brendan Haywood said. "You're going to go to the basket, and if it's not basically just a straight-up WWF body slam, you're not getting the call."


Both teams took 36 foul shots. Washington was called for 24 personal fouls, one more than Boston.

i must be missing something - an even number of fouls and foul shots and yet the wizards are complaining?

[whomario]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

i must be missing something - an even number of fouls and foul shots and yet the wizards are complaining?

not saying he has a point, but i´m pretty sure you´ll agree that "equal fouls and FTs = equally called game" doesn´t really hold true
On the other hand "one team has way more FTs = they have been favoured" is just as bogus.

If one team needs to foul more and the other team forces them to foul than obviously there will be a discrepancy.

He does have a point about Garnett´s illegal screen though, that´s sometimes mind boggling to watch him lift his feet off the ground or move his whole upper body and not be called for it. Then again, most star bigs get away with a lot of moving screens.

[DaddyTorgo]

of course...i was thinking of putting that in my original post...that an equal number of foul shots doesn't automatically mean an equally called game.

as far as garnett's screens - i view it as just another case of "star treatment" - just like some of the fouls that get called on other stars

[TroyF]

whomario,

How could you forget Denver's impressive win over the Tyreke Evansless Kings?

Oh, that's right, it wasn't impressive. It was a complete joke. At least they got the win. Melo still out. Denver has won 10 out of 11 as well. Next three will be Suns at home, Lakers on the road and Utah on the road (back to back) Denver already has the season series against Utah with a 3-0 record against them this year. See, Denver plays good against the top teams in the league. They suck ass against the below average teams in the league. It's so damned frustrating.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

He's still not max contract quality. When I think of max contract, I think of superstar who can lead a team. He is maybe a #2 on a good team (although he can't even do that right now). He puts up good numbers offensively, but he's a flawed player. He's horrific defensively and can't figure out the basics of defending a pick & roll. He's a horrible passer which makes him a black hole once the ball is fed to him. And he turns the ball over too much. If Amare is so great, there should be no reason the Suns wouldn't be one of the top teams in the West considering they have a superstar PG.

I think he'd be a great compliment to a guy like Lebron and feel that is a player they should have targeted in the offseason. I'd also love to see Miami take a swipe at him and see how he pairs with Wade. But there is no way he should be considered a max contract player and any team that does give him one is going to straddle themselves with a .500 team for the next half decade.

I don't think you are reading what I said.

OK, so he'd be a good fit in Miami and Cleveland. He'd also be a great fit for any sub .500 club who doesn't plan on contending for 3 or 4 years and wants to put fans in the seats.

So how are Miami and Cleveland going to get Amare exactly? They are going to have to pay the man, because if they don't, someone else will.

And giving Amare the max doesn't ensure you'll be .500 for the next half decade. Shaq isn't a max player right now, Cleveland is doing OK. Ray Allen isn't a max player (and wasn't in either of the last two years for that matter) and the Celtics did just fine. Kenyon Martin isn't a franchise player and the Nuggets have won 2 division titles and averaged 48 wins in the 4 years before this one. They are on pace for over 50 wins and another division title this year.

It all depends on the surrounding cast. If you make Redd a max player and don't surround him with anything thinking he's going to lead you deep into the playoffs by himself? Wrong. If you think Amare could do it? Wrong again.

But if you think he could be the second fiddle star who could lead you to the title, you have the money to do it and you know that if you don't pay him the max someone else will?

BTW, the Suns are constructed poorly this year. Their chance for a title fell apart when they dumped Joe Johnson and Marion. Those were their two best defensive players during their big runs. Now? I'm sorry, you can't put what they are on Amare. That star PG you bring up can't play defense to save his life. Channing Frye is the center. A 37 year old plays SF. Their most explosive bench player has been hurt most of the year and is only playing 19 minutes a game and shooting horribly when he's been out on the court.

The fact is, this isn't a good team, with or without two superstars. You can't honestly look at the Suns roster and think: These guys have more talent than LA, Denver, San Antonio, Utah, Portland (even with the injuries), Oklahoma City or Dallas. I'm amazed they have the record they have right now. If they do trade Amare at the deadline, I expect that 29-21 record will take a huge drop. I know they've been slumping, but they've just won 3 in a row with Amare leading the scoring in all three. He is a star.

[jbergey22]

Is there really any doubt that Amare is going to get a max contract? He is probably the 4th most attractive Free agent this year after James, Wade, and Bosh.

Rainmaker is exaggerating his flaws and short changing all of his strengths.

Its hard to say that Amare is a terrible defender when the point guard cant stop penetration. Someone has to step up and stop the ball which leaves all the other defenders in a vulnerable situation.

[stevew]

Amar'e has to be worth 10M a year to someone. I do like the movement towards 2 year contract guarantees. I think it would help the game out quite a bit. No more 5 years of Larry Hughes type players. I'd imagine there will be guys that get more than they should up front. Now on the back end, you hopefully won't have to pay.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Is there really any doubt that Amare is going to get a max contract? He is probably the 4th most attractive Free agent this year after James, Wade, and Bosh.

Rainmaker is exaggerating his flaws and short changing all of his strengths.

Its hard to say that Amare is a terrible defender when the point guard cant stop penetration. Someone has to step up and stop the ball which leaves all the other defenders in a vulnerable situation.

Of course he'll get a max contract. That doesn't mean he deserves it. If I'm a GM, there is a small set of players worthy of a max contract. Giving a guy that is not in the top 10 players in the league a max contract just means you end up being the Wizards for the next 6 years.

And I'm not exaggerating his flaws. He's horrible on defense and a horrible passer. Watch a Suns game and just follow him on defense. He's either not interested or just too confused. He's a great offensive player and fun to watch on that end of the court when he is going to the hoop, but those flaws are real.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Of course he'll get a max contract. That doesn't mean he deserves it. If I'm a GM, there is a small set of players worthy of a max contract. Giving a guy that is not in the top 10 players in the league a max contract just means you end up being the Wizards for the next 6 years.

And I'm not exaggerating his flaws. He's horrible on defense and a horrible passer. Watch a Suns game and just follow him on defense. He's either not interested or just too confused. He's a great offensive player and fun to watch on that end of the court when he is going to the hoop, but those flaws are real.

but if you really believe that only a "top 10 guy in the league" deserves a max contract then you likely won't be able to keep your job long enough to prove yourself right because by virtue of doing that you will have slotted yourself out of most of the FA signings who you can make to bring you incremental wins.

not saying i don't agree with you (personally i do, and that's a huge source of my frustration with the nba...among other things), just saying that's the way it is

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by TroyF

I don't think you are reading what I said.

OK, so he'd be a good fit in Miami and Cleveland. He'd also be a great fit for any sub .500 club who doesn't plan on contending for 3 or 4 years and wants to put fans in the seats.

So how are Miami and Cleveland going to get Amare exactly? They are going to have to pay the man, because if they don't, someone else will.

And giving Amare the max doesn't ensure you'll be .500 for the next half decade. Shaq isn't a max player right now, Cleveland is doing OK. Ray Allen isn't a max player (and wasn't in either of the last two years for that matter) and the Celtics did just fine. Kenyon Martin isn't a franchise player and the Nuggets have won 2 division titles and averaged 48 wins in the 4 years before this one. They are on pace for over 50 wins and another division title this year.

It all depends on the surrounding cast. If you make Redd a max player and don't surround him with anything thinking he's going to lead you deep into the playoffs by himself? Wrong. If you think Amare could do it? Wrong again.

But if you think he could be the second fiddle star who could lead you to the title, you have the money to do it and you know that if you don't pay him the max someone else will?

BTW, the Suns are constructed poorly this year. Their chance for a title fell apart when they dumped Joe Johnson and Marion. Those were their two best defensive players during their big runs. Now? I'm sorry, you can't put what they are on Amare. That star PG you bring up can't play defense to save his life. Channing Frye is the center. A 37 year old plays SF. Their most explosive bench player has been hurt most of the year and is only playing 19 minutes a game and shooting horribly when he's been out on the court.

The fact is, this isn't a good team, with or without two superstars. You can't honestly look at the Suns roster and think: These guys have more talent than LA, Denver, San Antonio, Utah, Portland (even with the injuries), Oklahoma City or Dallas. I'm amazed they have the record they have right now. If they do trade Amare at the deadline, I expect that 29-21 record will take a huge drop. I know they've been slumping, but they've just won 3 in a row with Amare leading the scoring in all three. He is a star.

I agree with you. If Amare is that missing piece that takes a team over the top to championship contender, then by all means do it. It's still a bad contract technically speaking and will probably bite you on the tail end, but if you get a title out of it that doesn't matter. But there are probably only a handful of teams out there that can say adding Amare makes them a championship contender.

I'm just saying for the other teams in the league outside of those few that he can turn into a contender, it's bad to give him a max contract. The reason the Knicks ended up where they are is because they gave big contracts to marginal stars. You have to be very picky with who you give a max contract to in this league as it straddles what you can do with the rest of the roster.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

but if you really believe that only a "top 10 guy in the league" deserves a max contract then you likely won't be able to keep your job long enough to prove yourself right because by virtue of doing that you will have slotted yourself out of most of the FA signings who you can make to bring you incremental wins.

not saying i don't agree with you (personally i do, and that's a huge source of my frustration with the nba...among other things), just saying that's the way it is

That's the problem with NBA GMs. Too many get caught up in the system where they have to win 45-50 games each year instead of taking some lumps and building a real contender. It's that 5-15 range of NBA teams that is so hard to break out of.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

That's the problem with NBA GMs. Too many get caught up in the system where they have to win 45-50 games each year instead of taking some lumps and building a real contender. It's that 5-15 range of NBA teams that is so hard to break out of.

Very true!

One last bit to add on the Amare debate. You are also paying for his potential. I agree that its beyond dumb to give a lot of players max contracts especially when a lot of them seemingly have limited upside. Amare still has a lot of untapped potential so while he may be worth only 7-8 million right now there is a decent enough chance to take the risk that the max contract may be a bargain down the road.

[stevew]

I think Amar'e has peaked as a player, and I would actually think he'll follow a career path similar to Chris Webber.

I just would not want to wager 5 or 6 years of huge money(15m plus) on a guy that will likely be garbage by the time he's 32.

[albionmoonlight]

In some ways, I can see both arguments making sense, and I think that I agree with both of them.

At the end of Amare's max contract, I think that Bill Simmons will be throwing around "the corpse of Amare Stoudemire and his expiring contract" in his hypothetical trade column like it is going out of style.

BUT, if you are a team that could drastically improve your chances of winning this year or next year with him as your second best player--and you can't get him for less than the Max--don't you still have to try and get him for the Max? To borrow another line from Simmons, isn't the point to win the title?

I agree that, for most every team in the league, giving Amare the max and hoping that he can lead you to a title as your main guy will get you nowhwere. But, he's got the talent to be the final piece of the puzzle for a few teams, and he is clearly available. For those teams, I can't see how the contract would be a mistake.

[TroyF]

Bingo. I'm not saying I want MY team to give Amare the max. But all there needs to be is TWO teams who badly want Amare as either the final piece of the puzzle or as a guy to build their marketing around. I can think of at last 8 teams who would have that interest.

He's going to get bigtime money. The only question is how badly he wants to win and what market he wants to play in.

[molson]

It looks like Paul Pierce may have a broken foot.....

[Groundhog]

And so begins the Bill Walker era.